OLD Electrical and Framing Questions

[Peter Stahl]

My daughter bought a fixer upper and the house had knob and tube wiring and balloon framing. Anyone know when electricians stopped using knob and tube wiring? When did builders stop doing balloon framing? They told us the house was built in 1950 but I'm thinking it has to be a little older then that.

[phil harold]

My daughter bought a fixer upper and the house had knob and tube wiring and balloon framing. Anyone know when electricians stopped using knob and tube wiring? When did builders stop doing balloon framing? They told us the house was built in 1950 but I'm thinking it has to be a little older then that.

knob and tube is older than the 50s I would assume

Ballon framing can still be done today if you have the fire blocking in the critical spots Mostly at ceiling and floors

I think ballon framing is stronger than stick framing but that is just my opinion...

[David G Baker]

Peter,
I owned a house in Northern California that was built in 1949 that had knob and tube wiring. Not sure what balloon framing is, guess I will have to look it up on the Internet.
Checked balloon framing out on the Internet, my house is a balloon framed old farm house that is two stories high. Any time I open up a wall I install fire breaks in the walls. Balloon framing sure makes it easier to re wire a house but the fire hazard is a very serious issue. I hear stories on the news here in Michigan about how fast fire travels from basement to attic in these older balloon framed homes. I now have a name for the framing, thanks.

[Dan Friedrichs]

K&T was used into the early '40s (I only know this because they mentioned it on TOH a few days ago :D )

[Peter Stahl]

I guess it could only be that old. Looks like K&T could have still been used. Sometimes it takes a while for people to used the new fangled stuff. Thankfully none of the old stuff was still in service. This is only a one story with a attic and there is no fire blocking in the old section but a previous owner had pulled all the plaster and lathe off and insulated and upgraded the wire. Only plaster/lathe left is in the ceiling in the bedroom and bathroom. I hate working on old houses, if Norm and Tom Silva were on this job they would have demoed the whole thing I think. Thanks for all the replies so far!

[Randy Cohen]

I had a house in Sea Cliff, NY that I renovated. It had knob & tube wiring. The house was built sometime in the early 1900's. Not sure when the wiring had been installed.
I think I've read somewhere that balloon framing is much stronger than platform framing because there is no hinge effect between the floors in a multi-level house. But in general it requires longer studs and therefore is more expensive to build.

[Jim Becker]

The second oldest portion of our home has balloon framing (really nice red heart pine, too) with "modern" dimensional lumber. It was built in the 1950s as best as we can determine. It is actually pretty interesting how the walls were constructed with material let-in at the band-joists to support the second floor, etc. I got to discover all this when I gutted the kitchen in 2003 for its renovation.

[Rob Russell]

K&T wiring isn't all bad. The electrical connections were actualy better than what we have now.

There were 2 major problems with a lot of K&T systems.
1) Amateurs cross-connected circuits, so you had a mix of hot/neutrals and that caused circuit overloads.
2) They fused the neutral. That meant you could have a circuit where the hot was live with no neutral so electrocution was more likely.

Beyond those 2 problems, K&T wiring can be perfectly safe.

[Neal Clayton]

rob beat me to it ;).

like many many many other things, the old way was better in many aspects, the problems usually arise from brother-in-law electrical jobs since then.

mine is half and half. upstairs runs through cast iron conduit. downstairs is K+T run through the crawlspace.

haven't had any trouble with either, both are over 100 years old. the only common issue is the old cotton insulation getting brittle and delicate, but it's one of those deals where if you leave it alone, it'll usually be fine.

[Chris Damm]

The newest TOH is redoing a 1950 Dutch Colonial that has K&T wiring. They have to replace all of it.

[Caspar Hauser]

My daughter bought a fixer upper and the house had knob and tube wiring and balloon framing. Anyone know when electricians stopped using knob and tube wiring? When did builders stop doing balloon framing? They told us the house was built in 1950 but I'm thinking it has to be a little older then that.

My 'boss' just balloon framed what is temporarily his shop and will eventually be a 2 storey house.

[Gene Howe]

In another life I was an insurance adjuster. Had occasion to go into an attic in a very nice, very old brick two story in Galena IL. The wiring was exposed...I mean BARE! :eek:
Knobs but, no tubing OR insulation.
My report to underwriting probably caused the home owner to lose their coverage. I sincerely hope they had the house rewired!

[Dave Wagner]

Also, it has to have an AIR GAP between the wires (usually run on opposite studs), they do not recommend insulating over the wires. That's not good.

Our previous house had a mix of K&T and newer wiring in the attic, the electrician updated the box to 200A and checked everything, he said, you don't have to update it unless there is a problem or your are renovating.

[Steve Clardy]

Our house was built in 1931.
It had all of the older paper wrapped, tarred, romex type wire. [Whatever you call that stuff, I can't remember]

There was no K&T wiring anywhere when we gutted it.

[Von Bickley]

K&T wiring isn't all bad. The electrical connections were actualy better than what we have now.

There were 2 major problems with a lot of K&T systems.
1) Amateurs cross-connected circuits, so you had a mix of hot/neutrals and that caused circuit overloads.
2) They fused the neutral. That meant you could have a circuit where the hot was live with no neutral so electrocution was more likely.

Beyond those 2 problems, K&T wiring can be perfectly safe.

I agree with Rob on this. K&T wiring was very safe, and still is. There are a lot of homes that are still wired with K&T.

[Dick Strauss]

K&T is also rated to carry more current for a given size conductor...