a great study i stumbled across, pertaining to replacing wood with plastic...

[Neal Clayton]

i've mentioned in a few threads that i build traditional windows and doors, and as such try to keep up on any and all info out there that's spoon fed to the public by dishonest manufacturers and dealers, and stumbled across a study the other day that works from the other side of the fence...

http://www.ohp.parks.ca.gov/pages/1054/files/testing%20windows%20in%20cold%20climates.pdf


6. ANALYSIS AND DISCUSSION
Estimated savings for first year energy costs show little variability between upgrade options
when compared to the estimated energy costs of a typical window. The cost variability of
upgrade options decreases significantly when lead abatement of original sash is included.
Estimated first year savings are also of very small magnitude when compared with typical
windows. It is therefore not worthwhile to base upgrade decisons solely or even primarily on
energy considerations.
reason for looking around was i can't count the number of times someone back home has asked me about windows, and what kind of windows they need to replace theirs with. when i last had that conversation with a new neighbor a few weeks ago, my typical response was given, "don't bother, you won't save any money". of course due to marketing pre-conditioned opinions, they can't fathom how they would fail to save thousands. then when the first bill comes in they find out that they've saved just enough to pay for the plastic window replacement cycle every decade, they usually aren't very pleased (or worse yet, they run to a guy who sells them 500 dollar programmable thermostats and 10,000 dollar forced air units, always chasing that saved dollar by throwing away thousands).

anyways, the estimated cost of vinyl window marketing = no more people in the vast majority of areas qualified to work on a proper window sash, much less build one.

the estimated energy cost savings for everyone who jumped on the plastic bandwagon and caused that, 2-5 dollars per window, per year.

[James Jaragosky]

Great Information. I was one of the ill-informed masses.

[Neal Clayton]

i suppose it's just a strange fascination on my part ;). anyone who's been around houses from the mid to late 18th century an appreciate that while even then most 'building parts' were fairly stock, the windows were often what made one building stand out from another. there was alot of time and money spent on making intricate window patterns in those days, and they were often the one thing that separated one building from another in appearance.

100-150 years later, we're in the stage of abating the damage to the remaining originals, epoxy repairs, splice repairs, painstakingly removing old paint layers and repainting, etc. many common patterns aren't really feasible to recreate with modern tools even (such as diamond pattern sashes, which were joined with a coping device that hasn't been made since the 20s/30s).

when they're really all gone, we won't have much (besides alot more plastic at the bottom of the landfills) but pictures to look at in the next 100 years in many places, since the owning of intricate wooden windows will be reserved for the few folks who can afford very expensive custom work, and who are lucky enough to live in an area where the one or two custom shops who do this sort of work can manage to survive.

[Rick Gooden]

Neil,

I fell into doing custom windows and doors about a year or so ago and have been absolutely facinated by it. Mine are done for historic buildings and residences. I have since done a lot of research and found that a well constructed window is as energy efficient as the vinyl stuff and will last many lifetimes (If you keep them painted). It looks like the typical no maintenance windows have about a 20 year lifetime. Buisness in the custom historic reproduction of windows and doors is great and I have been blessed with as much work as I can handle. Windows really do give personallity to a home.

[Phil Thien]

This is good information.

I have French windows (they open like French doors).

They've been troublesome when it comes to weatherstripping.

The current (original) weatherstripping on them is made of bronze. Like this:

http://www.vintagewoodwork.com/Hardware/Hardware%20Weather%20Stripping.htm

I've gotta believe there is something that would work better.

Any ideas?

[Neal Clayton]

This is good information.

I have French windows (they open like French doors).

They've been troublesome when it comes to weatherstripping.

The current (original) weatherstripping on them is made of bronze. Like this:

http://www.vintagewoodwork.com/Hardware/Hardware%20Weather%20Stripping.htm

I've gotta believe there is something that would work better.

Any ideas?

yes, the straight bronze stuff works well when the windows are new, but as you get some shrinkage over the centuries...well...sometimes not so great anymore. the arch in the straight bronze is very slight, too, and can wear out and work itself flat over a few decades.

there's a V shaped bronze weatherstripping that will seal quite well if the gaps have gotten too wide for the flat stuff to maintain a seal.

looks like the link you posted has it, on page two. you can attach it to either the window itself or the jamb, your preference. just nail it in with copper nails like the old stuff.


Neil,

I fell into doing custom windows and doors about a year or so ago and have been absolutely facinated by it. Mine are done for historic buildings and residences. I have since done a lot of research and found that a well constructed window is as energy efficient as the vinyl stuff and will last many lifetimes (If you keep them painted). It looks like the typical no maintenance windows have about a 20 year lifetime. Buisness in the custom historic reproduction of windows and doors is great and I have been blessed with as much work as I can handle. Windows really do give personallity to a home.

i started doing them about a year ago myself. not for a living, just making reproductions for my own house. turned into making a few one offs here and there for other people that had one bad one or needed one transom or one casement or other such thing.

i guess it's just the nature of the thing. it's nice to make things that look good. it's nice to make things that are functional. but windows and doors to me seem like the culmination of both.

and every time i drive by an old building and see a vinyl window truck parked outside my stomach churns :(. i've even seen new window contractors smash the old ones after they're removed, to keep other people from salvaging them. such a waste..

[Gene Howe]

We made the mistake of installing single pane aluminum nail ons sliders when we built our house 15 years ago. (Thought we were smart in saving the $$)
Replaced them with vinyl gas filled 2 years ago. Not a hard job, much better looking, and they work so much smoother.

As for paying for the new windows with energy savings.......well, lets just say I won't live long enough. Similar to paying 35K to replace my 12 mpg 250 pickup with a Hybrid. By my calculations, I'd have to drive it for over 15 years to break even. 35K will buy a WHOLE lot of gasoline or diesel.

[Neal Clayton]

ugh, that's a whole other can of worms. wonder what those people who bought hybrids are gonna think in a few years when they have a 5 thousand dollar vehicle that needs a 10 thousand dollar battery? ;)

[Josiah Bartlett]

I have an old house that has been victimized by window replacements 3 times in its life in an incomplete manner. The originals were double hung 1 over 1 windows. The downstairs windows had a retrofit channel with new 1 over 1 double glazed sashes installed. The tracks have all gone bad. They look nice, but they leak like a sieve, and since they are surface mount tracks I can't just restore the original style ones. Some of the upstairs windows were replaced with metal horizontal sliders. Not only do they look crappy, they aren't even double glazed. Then there are some vinyl 1 over 1 that weren't well installed and they don't operate well.

I'm about to start the process of replacing all the aluminum windows with double hung. I think I might just reproduce the original sash windows and weather strip them correctly. The remaining original windows that I've cleaned up and set right work really nicely and don't leak. I have an extra set of sashes to use as prototypes to make new ones. Its also a good excuse to buy new shaper cutters.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Neil,

I fell into doing custom windows and doors about a year or so ago and have been absolutely facinated by it. Mine are done for historic buildings and residences. I have since done a lot of research and found that a well constructed window is as energy efficient as the vinyl stuff and will last many lifetimes (If you keep them painted). It looks like the typical no maintenance windows have about a 20 year lifetime. Buisness in the custom historic reproduction of windows and doors is great and I have been blessed with as much work as I can handle. Windows really do give personallity to a home.


Rick - PM for you

[Neal Clayton]

I have an old house that has been victimized by window replacements 3 times in its life in an incomplete manner. The originals were double hung 1 over 1 windows. The downstairs windows had a retrofit channel with new 1 over 1 double glazed sashes installed. The tracks have all gone bad. They look nice, but they leak like a sieve, and since they are surface mount tracks I can't just restore the original style ones. Some of the upstairs windows were replaced with metal horizontal sliders. Not only do they look crappy, they aren't even double glazed. Then there are some vinyl 1 over 1 that weren't well installed and they don't operate well.

I'm about to start the process of replacing all the aluminum windows with double hung. I think I might just reproduce the original sash windows and weather strip them correctly. The remaining original windows that I've cleaned up and set right work really nicely and don't leak. I have an extra set of sashes to use as prototypes to make new ones. Its also a good excuse to buy new shaper cutters.

they're fun to build to me. they're complicated enough to be challenging, although not overly difficult, just a constant test of how much you're paying attention (and yes, i have cut a chain/rope groove on the wrong edge of a fully completed window, perfect example...oops...).

the window specific things i can remember off the top of my head are...don't try to get perfect dimensions on a double hung by the parts, it'll always be a little off, just leave them too long and cut the bottom rail after they're done, since it has to be angled anyways. glazing and finishing has a few gotchas, namely don't paint the putty before it's dry or the paint will fail (although i'm told if you use linseed based paint and linseed based putty it's not a problem). don't finish the outside edges of the jambs (or they'll stick), don't finish the edges of the sash itself, it needs to breathe, and if you want to finish the parting strips you have to stain them only, paint will rub off no matter what kinda paint you use.. a roll of hardware store brass chain is better than rope, and you won't have to worry about the weights falling in the wall when your grandkids own the house next century that way ;). 1x1.5 square steel stock with a washer welded on the end and some S hooks makes a perfect counterweight for 1 3/8" double hungs, but make sure there's enough space around the frame for the weights to travel in, shimming at the top and bottom of the frame will have to do, so the frame needs to be dado'd together to give the sides strength. make sure your walls are thick enough, that can be an issue. old studs and plaster are about 5 or 5.25 inches total, that's plenty. new studs and drywall are about an inch less, which can be a problem (1 3/8 window + 1 3/8 window + 1/2 parting strip + 1/2 parting strip + 1 jamb = 4.75, 3.5 stud + 1/2 drywall + 1/2 siding = not enough!). if you run out of space with a new wall that only has 3.5" studs and drywall, you have to do some creative dado'ing of the parting strips to make it work. the angle for the bottom rail is either 9, or 11, or 14 degrees. i have no idea why they used those measurements, but it's always one of the three. i make all mine 14. easiest way to cut the rope/chain groove is the whole sash in a tenon jig turned backwards, then it can run through a dado blade with a stop clamped on the table. plan how to manage the middle rails' interlocking mechanism beforehand. the bottom sash's check rail can be integrated, the top sash can't because you run into the spindle on the shaper, so don't forget to glue one on the top sash before the paint.

[Pat Germain]

Can almost any wood frame windows be repaired or rebuilt?

I really like old, wood frame windows. I had them in my house in Virginia. Unfortunately, they were completely shot. I replaced them with double pane vinyl windows. But not because I thought I would save lots of money on energy. I saved money because the windows were inexpensive and I was able to install them myself. The new windows also made my house much more comfortable.

It was a very small house in a marginal neighborhood. I didn't think paying a qualified professional like Neal to build new, wood frame windows would have been cost effective. But I certainly could have been wrong.

[Josiah Bartlett]

The traditional wood frame windows can be completely rebuilt- you can take them apart into their component pieces if you need to. However, more modern wood sash windows may be a little more difficult unless you can still get the specialized tracks and hardware that they include.

I've rebuilt a couple of my wood sash windows so far- replaced the sills, disassembled the sashes, stripped, cleaned, and re-glazed them. It helps if you have an extra pair of sashes or a storm window that fits your opening so you can take your time. I find that the sash joints tend to work loose after a while. The death of a sash is usually when the glazing is allowed to crack all the way out and the sash gets out of square. This also allows water to pool in the glazing rabbet and rot sets in quickly. I take the glass out, take the mortise and tenons apart if they need it, clean them up and repair any rotted areas with epoxy, re-assemble with waterproof glue, prime, glaze, and paint them. Sometimes the top shoulder of the cord slot cracks off. For sashes that have somehow gotten too narrow I joint the edge and then glue a new strip of wood on the side and re-cut the cord slot. It takes me about 4 hours of work per window. A Norton Rapidstrip disc in a 7" sander/polisher makes short work of stripping off old layers of paint (I do it outside). A slot cutter on a shaper or router table works well to cut cord slots. Finish up with a bit of spring brass weatherstrip and clean up the sash locks and you are good to go for another 100 years.

[Neal Clayton]

yea, you'd be surprised at what i've seen people accomplish with epoxies pat.

i've seen sashes eaten through and through with termites, that probably lost half of their wood, repaired to like-new condition.

and yea like josiah said since the old windows were typically not glued, making a replacement rail or stile is also an option where there's severe damage. once the glass is out the entire sash can be disassembled pretty easily, the glass and glazing putty is typically what's holding them together, other than maybe a single nail through each joint.

there have been a couple of roy underhill episodes related to old window sashes..

one with a shop using restored 19th century tools to build them..
http://flash.unctv.org/woodwrightss/wws_2612.html

[Bob Savage]

Similar to paying 35K to replace my 12 mpg 250 pickup with a Hybrid. By my calculations, I'd have to drive it for over 15 years to break even. 35K will buy a WHOLE lot of gasoline or diesel.

I'm certain many others have done the math, but you're the only person other than myself that I've seen mention this.

The guy that I used to work for, an intelligent fellow, suggested I get rid of my 5.7 V8 vehicle (owned outright) with a Prius, to save money on gas (this was back when gas prices were very, very high).

I decided to do the math and he was quite surprised, albeit also very skeptical (said he'd have to do the math himself), when I told him I'd be driving the vehicle for 12 or so years before the ROI came around. This was withoug taking into consideration cell replacements or any other maintenance that may come around for a hybrid.

Of course, a daytime drunk driver took care of my V8 vehicle... but I still didn't end up with a hybrid because again, the delta between what I bought and the hyrbrid would have taken far too long to regain the up front costs.

[Anthony Scira]

The way I figure it is if I needed new windows or am building a house I would get the energy efficient ones.

I would not just replace good windows just to save the energy.

And the hybrid car thing, well 10 years ago the car did not even really exist and the prototypes were prolly in the hundreds of thousands.

As the technology gets better, prices come down and efficiency goes up. You will see a lot more on the road.

[Brian Elfert]

My parents had wooden casement windows with double pane glass installed when the house was built in 1979. These windows constantly needed painting and they were drafty as all get out. My parents put 3M insulating film on the inside every winter.

They had Renewal by Andersen windows installed about 2 years ago. The house is much more comfortable without the plastic film. They do save money on energy, but energy prices would have to go up about 100 fold to ever recoup the money invested in the windows.

They needed new windows regardless of any energy savings. The old ones were starting to fall apart.