Seeking advice on new shop woodworking machines

[Paul Spencer]

I am setting up a hobby wood working shop and plan on hardware furniture, cabinets, bookcases and anything that looks interesting. I am interested in your input and comments.

I bought a used bandsaw (21") and am considering a shop without a tablesaw. Mainly for cost and safety reasons, also shop space.

I am thinking of using a bandsaw, planer and some type of router to make the lumber square and dimension it.

I am also trying to avoid a jointer. Mainly for cost but also for shop space.

For face jointing. Roughly flatten on side of rough lumber so the high spots are coplaner. Use a thickness planer to flatten the other side. Face jointing now complete. Flip over and and run through again for 2 parallel faces.

For edge jointing, I am considering a router table or shaper or pin router.

Considering all the importance cast iron is given for the top of table saws, band saws and shapers; router tables seem to be of a lower grade and pricey. Shapers don't spin fast enough for router bits that do dadoes, apparently.

Which brings me to pin routers. Some are two speed. They run fast enough for regular router bits. If slower speeds are desired, get one with a 3 phase motor and add speed control. The cost of buying a pin router can be reduced by going used. Question, can shaper cutters be used on pin routers, assuming the right speed ? Mainly though, I want to run router bits on something with a substantial table so using shaper cutters may not be that important to me.

The pin router would be used for all the other fun things you can do with router tables, template copying and so forth.

If the bandsaw, planer, pin router idea doesn't work, I can always buy the tablesaw and jointer eventually....

Is accurate machining of the wood from rough lumber likely to occur with this equipment ? I am pretty much a novice here.
Safety concerns of the pin router ?
I wired my shop for 220V and rebuilt some shopsmiths, so dealing with some technical challenges should be ok. Well this post is pretty lengthy so I'll stop here for now. Thank you for reading, feel free to comment !

[Pat Germain]

While you could probably do OK with just a band saw and planer, I think you're going to be wanting a jointer and a table saw, Paul.

If you're budget is tight, I would recommend scanning your local Craigslist for some used machines. Many a cabinet shop is folding these days and clearing out their tools. I've seen some especially great buys on used Unisaws. If you don't have the space for a Unisaw, you might look for a good buy on a Ridgid hybrid saw. Those things get very good reviews and they are reasonably priced.

If you get a nice table saw, you can install a router on one wing and solve your router table issue. While a router installed in a table saw wing isn't quite as nice as a dedicated router station, I was very impressed with how much I could do with my simple setup. I simply use the TS fence for most operations.

While it's possible to edge joint on a TS, I think your life will be a whole lot easier with a jointer. Again, look for local bargains on used machines. And get an 8" jointer if at all possible. It won't take up much more room than a 6" and it will be more versatile.

Have fun!

[Jim Foster]

If your worried about safety, the relatively new Saw Stop table saw is much safer than other table saws.

A tale saw is the most versatile power tool in the shop IMO, and I don't think I'd enjoy trying to get by without one.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I think Table Saw, band Saw, Jointer, Planer are pretty important in a wood shop.

Routers would be less important than those if building cabinets, furniture, and book cases but maybe that's just my preference.

[glenn bradley]

Lots of folks run a shop without a bandsaw. A bandsaw is dangerous (http://www.exponent.com/bandsaw_accident/). The idea of them being "safer" than another tool is an often repeated piece of misinformation. Treat it with as much respect (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=105775) as a tablesaw, shaper of any other power tool. OK, that's done.

I would consider a jointer even more important if I didn't have a tablesaw BUT, that's me. I can personally vouch for a planer sled (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=58735) as a good alternative to a jointer for face jointing. The idea of 'sorta planing' a surface and then using that surface as a reference in a power planer would require a judgment of "flat" that differs from mine but, a sled will do just great. A good hand plane and some winding sticks can get you there too.

The only thing you won't have is a powered way to prepare a glue line edge for table tops and other panels. This can be accomplished with a good hand plane so that's not an issue. Since you will be jointing by hand I would take that room the jointer and tablesaw were going to occupy and build myself a nice solid bench to hold my material still whilst I am making curlies. There is always more than one way to skin the cat and you should pursue yours and have fun.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Paul, there are some really ingenious ideas here to maximize the small shops. How big is your space?

Your idea would work, but it's certainly not the path most used. I think most of us use a tablesaw, jointer and planer because they make an efficient team. Honestly, anything else is going to be slower, in my opinion. If you are ok with that, great! Like Glenn mentioned, hand tools may be of interest to you.

[Paul Spencer]

thank you for the input. I appreciated especially the bandsaw accident link. I have purchased a few bandsaw books and have the user's manual so I can learn safe use of the machine.

My shop is about 25 x 30 not counting vehicles going in and out.

I think the comment about no table saw meaning slower work will be accurate. That is at least for me, but I'll be slow anyways.

I plan on being at the Costa Mesa wood working show this Saturday to see what I can learn, maybe I'll come across some of you and can thank you in person for posting.

I'm not married to the idea of no table saw, but I'd like to try it. The machines I'm starting with I would want eventually anyways so dollar wise it's probably an ok way to go.

thanks for posting everyone, so far !

[Simon Dupay]

A pin router is very useful tool it can do almost any thing a router table can do and more. I would recommend one if you have the space but you can't use shaper cutters on it.

[Narayan Nayar]

In the end, the reason these pieces of equipment exist in most shops are because each one of them is optimized to do a task or set of tasks in woodworking. You can get rid of one or more of them, but you'll still need to do those tasks, and you'll have to do them on equipment which isn't optimized for those tasks. You could technically use a butterknife to eat your peas, and it'd get the job done, but a spoon or a fork would probably get that job done more easily.

I'd definitely get rid of my tablesaw before I got rid of my bandsaw. Not for safety reasons, though, for space reasons. I have another way of cutting sheet goods (guided rail saw), though, and I typically use that anyway to break down large panels. I could still rip boards to size with the bandsaw, and dimension board lumber to size with my jointer, planer, and handtools.

But I keep it because I've already made the investment and it really comes in handy for most projects. And that's just me--others would do exactly the opposite.

I'd definitely say that you don't have to start off with a tablesaw. Make a few projects. See how it goes. I think that'll tell you more about whether you need a tablesaw than anyone on this forum can.

[Bo Jones]

Paul, I too have a small shop space and limited funds. After a lot of looking, asking, thinking and reading forums, I realized a track saw was the answer to maximum space utilization as well as straight cuts, edge joints, routing, etc. Brand?-you decide. But do yourself a big favor and explore the possibilities.
Bo

[Rick Fisher]

I use my jointer more than my tablesaw..

A 21" Bandsaw should rip all your lumber just fine.. its not a great way to cut ply..

I typically rip on the bandsaw and head right to the jointer.. Table saw is basically just used for sizing glue-ups and cutting plywood..

I could see no table saw.. but no jointer wouldn't work for me..

Flattening boards on a planer is possible, but I think it would get old really quick..

Try it out, see how it works.. 25' x 30' is a good sized hobby shop..

[Mike Heidrick]

You mention case work (bookshelf, cabinets, etc). You will want a table saw I am betting and or at minimum a tracksaw.

If you want a flat reference face without a lot of hassle you will want a jointer too or you will become REAL GOOD with hand tools. Otherwise S4S stock will get expensive real quick. You can edge joint easily on other tools but that face jointing on 6" stock is tricky.

[Von Bickley]

I'll take a TS, a miter saw, a router table and several routers. :D

[wallace chapman]

Paul, if you're building cabinets or bookcases very often, you will quickly see that you can't get by too long without a table saw. I would recommend a Panel saw if safety is the concern, as it all but eliminates the major issues.

I have a great table saw from grizzly but also purchased a panel saw (track saw?) from Amazon that I wonder how I survived without.

Here is the link to the panel saw (click) (http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-6480-20-Complete-50-Inch-Crosscut/dp/B0009H57JS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1256946493&sr=8-3) I purchased. It will save you from much of the worry and your back if you handle sheet goods such as 4x8 or 5x10 plywood.

My Preference is Tablesaw/panel saw, Miter saw, router (preferably a shaper), bandsaw.

Good luck and heed the great advice given here from others. It has saved me countless hours of headaches.

[daniel lane]

A bandsaw is dangerous (http://www.exponent.com/bandsaw_accident/).

I'm not arguing your point at all, Glenn. Not at all. But I don't think the example linked is the best to make the point. The operator cut off 4 fingers because he was adjusting the fence while the saw was running?! Blenders are dangerous too, especially when you reach in to push that bouncing chunk of ice into the blades.

Besides, how do you withdraw your hand "through the blade" if you're adjusting the fence from the front? The photo with the skeletal hand makes it look like he was reaching under the front of the fence from the back of the saw (blade changing slot to the left = view from back of saw), then pulled his hand through the blade. Who operates a bandsaw from behind the blade? :confused:

I have to say that I was disappointed to read that the case was settled, especially after reading that, "Biomechanical accident reconstruction analysis revealed that the distribution of injuries were not possible in the scenario described." In other words, the operator lied about the injury, got caught doing so, and still settled for an undisclosed sum. Makes me grouchy. :mad:

Final disclosure: My snarkiness toward the event as described in no way reflects on you Glenn - I was feeling snarky about it and you just happened to have posted the link.

Edit: Apologies for the OT reply, Paul. Hopefully I didn't just (unintentionally) hijack your thread.


daniel

[Matt Day]

How about a combo jointer/planer to save on some space? (sorry if someone mentioned it, I glazed through the posts)

[harry strasil]

The 8 things you can do almost anything with in a small shop.

1. A good workbench with a vise.

2. A pair of saw horses.

3. A table saw.

4. A router table or router in a wing of the TS.

5. A few router bits, they seem to accumulate as you progress in your work.

6. A 12 inch or larger thickness planer.

7. A drill press.

8. Sandpaper.

[Rick Fisher]

Your saying that its possible to do woodworking with one router ????

Hmm..

I .. dont .. know .. what to say..

I had no idea.. really..

You dont mean one router at a time.. ???

How did I not know about this?

:)

[Tony Bilello]

No matter what anyone says you need, you will always be able to find someone that knows someone that built an entire piece of furniture with only a piece of broken glass. Having said that, I think you will find that most furniture makers rate their tablesaw as their single most important tool. If I didnt have a tablesaw, I would give up woodworking.

[Rich Aldrich]

A jointer makes lumber flat in the length direction and diagonally, which you are probably not going to do with a planer. Most of my lumber is rough cut and is a good way to save money if you have a good source. Putting equipment on mobile bases, which you can make yourself, are a good way to cram more equipment in more space.

Starting in 1999, my shop was 20 x 28, which I have added on in 2009. In the 20 x 28 ft shop, I started with, in this order,

DC1100 dust collector (since replaced with a Clearvue CV1800)
A tablesaw G1023 with 50 rip capacity and sliding table
12 planer Makita NB 2012
jointer Jet 6" on a mobile base
router table - MLCS with a Freud FT2000E
compound mitersaw - Bosch 3915
Until I added a good work bench (home grown maple on my property which I built), and a band saw (ShopFox WB 1706), I have very little room to build cabinets. The bandsaw was the last piece I added and the least necessary, although I really like it.

I could still build one cabinet at a time. Now, I have added an extra 20 x 24, so the total is 20 x 52. I can build at least 4 cabinets at a time.

[Paul Spencer]

The Costa Mesa woodshow was informative for me. I bought some soy based finish stripper for a small project. They had seminars on shop setup so that was good too.
I appreciate everyone one who chimed in here. Most people favor having a table saw it seems. Also, some encouragement to just try things and staying flexible. I already have the bandsaw, so I'll finish setting up the shop electrical and lighting then get something that can help do joints appropriate for the project. Could even be a table saw. One fellow at the show had table saw with sandpaper on the sides of the blade. This produced glue ready edges.

thank you to everyone.

[Brian Kent]

Paul,

Welcome.

I wish I had read your post earlier. I went to the show Saturday and could have met you.

I use a tablesaw, bandsaw, and an 18" wide sander. I do not have a planer, and can do the job very slowly with multiple sander passes. Even though I have a nice jointer, I have not used it (ever). All of my lumber is very well prepared from Reel Lumber and I have not needed it yet.

Brian