Permanently wired equipment?

[Craig Colvin]

I'm building a new shop and planning on permanently wiring the table saws into a junction box in the floor.

Everything I have ever read about table saw safety says to disconnect power before changing blades. Now I have never had a TS spontaneously turn on and I have never accidently turned one on. Even so I would fear nervous changing a blade without disconnecting power, the same way I feel nervous when I have to fish something out of the garbage disposal.

So the question is, should I add a power disconnect box on the wall somewhere near the powersaw to disconnect power to it when changing blades, or am I just being silly?

[Steve Jenkins]

If your panel is within sight just flip the breaker off. I would never call anyone silly for taking a precaution to make things feel safer. Steve

[Gary Max]

That's what I do----flip the breaker.
At that point I never give the power another thought.
Of course when I change a blade I also like going over the rest of the---get the air gun and blow the whole machine off and check the fence so it may be a hour job just changing a blade for me.

[Craig Colvin]

Well the panel is in another room quite a ways away. So I would have to had one of the boxes with the big lever on the side somewhere near the saw.

The question really is, is it necessary? Does everyone pull the plug or flip the circuit breaker before changing blades?

[Dan McLaughlin]

I always pull the plug. It's easier than throwing the breaker.

[Brian Hale]

Craig,

Yesterday i was changing the blades on my 6" jointer (110 volt) but had to go to a b-day party before i finished. This morning i finished them up. Double checked everything like locking screws and table alignment. Walked behind it and plugged it in and the darn thing came on!! :eek: :eek: Somehow between yesterday and today i had hit the on switch and didn't know it.

If it had been plugged in while i was working on it, well .......

That was a wake up call for me.

Take the time, play it safe.
Kill the power, avoid the hospital trip.

Brian

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

Craig, I would hard wire the TS using a disconnect. It is just easier than going to the panel and switching off the breaker. I ALWAYS unplug whatever equipment it is I am doing service on. It is a good habit to get into, and it beats getting hurt. (Actually, I unplug some of my equipment whenever it is not being used. My lathe has a VFD, and they are not fond of surges, and I never know when it is gonna blow up a storm with lightning in the area, when I am not home.)
I also have the 220V circuit for my Oneida Cyclone switched. I use a remote switch for my DC, and when I leave the shop, I just turn the switch off........that keeps some stray signal from switching on the cyclone by accident. Always better to be safe than sorry, IMO. ;)

[Jim Becker]

I'm in favor of plugs, both for safety during blade changes since you can lay the thing on top of the saw so you KNOW it's not plugged in and because that makes it easier to deal with the occasional reconfiguration of things. IE, more flexibilty. If you do choose to hard-wire, an easily accessable and visible disconnect switch near the tool is a good idea. You want it so that it's quite obvious that the disconnect is "off" or "on".

[Bob Smalser]

I've worked in shops where the machines were hardwired...

...and it made me nervous enuf to test and properly mark every single breaker in the panel after hours, brightly color coded for the machines that needed to be shut down before maintenance.

No malfunctioning magnetic or other switch is ever gonna cost me my livelihood.

[Brian Austin]

I'd rather take the time (all of 5-7 seconds?) to unplug and replug, knowing I'm not about to watch my fingers/hands fly across the room because something was accidently hot. Just like I rehearse a new cut with the power off before turning everything on. I'm just not in that much of a hurry.

Personally, I'd do plugs, if only for the flexibility.

[Tyler Howell]

I wired in a disconect right next to my saw. In your case How about mount it on the saw?? The fewer joints in you supply line the better:cool:


http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=10405&page=2&pp=40

[Richard Allen]

A plug is a nice thing to have. For changing blades. For other service on the saw. If you can move your equipment from the shop (like wheeling out to the driveway) you would be amazed how quickly you can completly clean your shop.

[Tim Morton]

Am I the only one who has unplugged his saw and moved it to another spot in the shop and plugged it in to another outlet? I would not hard wire it just for that reason.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Craig......if you decide to hardwire it......INSTALL A SHUTOFF WHERE YOU CAN SEE IT WHILE STANDING AT THE SAW! I've worked on electronic equipment since 1968. Some of the equipment I work on today operates at 140 KV dc. In those years I've only been shocked a couple of times and it's always been when I had no choice but to work on it, align it with power applied. Twice it could have cost me my life....once because of the shock..the 2nd time I almost fell from the mast of a ship as a result of the shock. The secret to surviving electrical shock is don't incurr one in the first place. You want to know for a fact...beyond all doubt.......absolutely.....positively.....the power is off when you are working on that saw. If the disconnect is in the next room....it would be awful easy to decide not to use it......a bump with an arm or hip.....the blades turning in what used to be your very useful hands! Convenient shutoff or disconnect........

[Craig Colvin]

Thanks for all the input guys. I will be installing a disconnect somewhere.

A little background about this shop. I'm starting a new business, a woodworking club, where people will come and rent time in the shop. Think health club with woodworking equipment instead of exercise machines. I'll also have a retail store and have woodworking classes.

So lot's of people will be using these machines and safety is a big concern. I just wanted to validate that my concern over hardwired was justified.

The table saws won't be moving much but I expect to shuffle around some of the other machines as I grow. So I'll have lots of outlets and looks like I will have a lot of disconects as well. I would rather that customers flip a disconnect switch than be plugging and unplugging equipment. Especially the 220v equipment.

[Kevin Gerstenecker]

Neat concept Craig.........I wish you the best, and I hope this catches on.............innovative idea. I would think your insurance carrier would have some insight into required safety equipment for the club, to minimize the liability. People and sharp rotating or spinning things can be a recipe for disaster. I am sure you have given this much thought, but the most important thing is to have the woodworkers who use your facility come back the next time with all 10 fingers! :eek:

(Just a thought, but I don't think I would be letting the club members work on the equipment...........even if it is as simple as changing a blade........I would leave that for the instructor/supervisor.)

Just my 2 cents worth, btw! :)

[Carole Valentine]

Graig,
I personally like to be able to see that the saw is physically disconnected (ie unplugged) every time I have to do something where my hands are withing range of that blade, but maybe that's just me.
Congrats on the new business! I sure wish there was something like that here. Just out of curiosity, how the heck do you handle insurance and liabilty on something like that? It must be a bear!

[George M. Perzel]

Craig;
No need to get fancy-just wire a second switch in series with the saw off-on switch. Use a DPST commercial switch and put it in a utility box on the side of the saw. Wire the power to this switch first and then from there to you saw on-off switch. The odds of both switches failing at the same time is about the same as the chance Osama Bin Laden will be elected President of the USA.
Good Luck
gperzel

[Ellen Benkin]

Let me know when you expand to southern California. I looked all over for just such a place and finally gave up and bought my own equipment. I'd rather have someplace where someone else maintains the equipment and has people around to give advice.

Good luck.

[Craig Colvin]

Graig,
Congrats on the new business! I sure wish there was something like that here. Just out of curiosity, how the heck do you handle insurance and liabilty on something like that? It must be a bear!
There used to be a club like this in Springfield, VA. It got bought out by WoodCraft. Not sure if they still have a shop or not. http://www2.woodcraft.com/website/e-controller/storehome.asp?storename=Springfield&storeid=327

As for insurance it's not as bad as I expected. I do have to make sure the members are properly trained and checked out on the equipment and that they sign their lifes away with a release form, but I've found numerous insurance companies willing to deal with me.

[Craig Colvin]

Let me know when you expand to southern California. I looked all over for just such a place and finally gave up and bought my own equipment. I'd rather have someplace where someone else maintains the equipment and has people around to give advice.

Good luck.
Well this is the prototype store for what will hopefully become a franchise. :) Perhaps there will be a store in So. Cal.

[Rob Russell]

Craig,

I hope that your idea catches and takes off. A couple of thoughts:

You need to think safety first.
You need to think about liability second.
Profit will go away if you don't think about #1 and #2.


As a rent-a-shop, you need to expect people to abuse the equipment. Are you prepared for that?

Personally, I'd think that a plug is the safest way to guarantee the machine is powered down. You could also have a rule that the machine is unplugged when someone is through with it, with the cord laying on top. Next person goes over and sees the machine is powered down to start working. High quality twistlock plugs and receptacles will take the abuse of plugging and unplugging for a long time. Disconnect switches would work as well, but I'd almost want to go to locking disconnects so some yoyo doesn't turn on the wrong switch because they were in a hurry. I suppose you could mitigate that a bit by having the machines/disconnects spread out enough so it would be really difficult to pick the wrong disconnect.

FYI, floor plugs can fill up with sawdust. You might consider a set of plug and connector bodies (a connector body is the female equivalent to a plug). You could hang the male/female ends on the machine, so plugging the machine in is a matter of grabbing the 2 and plugging them in. The male could have enough cord so it could be draped up on top of the machine as proof of it's being disconnected.

You might want to check with OSHA to see if they have specfic guidelines for a commercial shop. I'd think that whatever you do, you'd want to meet OSHA standards. Not meeting OSHA specs could open you up to a whole bunch of liability issues.

Have you thought about how you will charge for expensive consumables, like blades? Is this going to be a BYOB shop (Bring Your Own Blade), or will you let people trash a $100 Woodworker II and, if so, how will you track and charge for things like that?

Are you going to require certain safety gear like eye/ear protection? What will your rules be and how will you enforce them?

How will you know that someone is "qualified" to operate a machine like a shaper?

You might consider a European "format-style" sliding table saw. That could be a big draw and has inherent safety advantages.

You'll probably want automatic dust collection (think Ecogate), self-starting, auto-blast gates.

Best of luck with your business idea. I hope you become one of the new millionaires!

Rob

[Steve Clardy]

Every power tool I own has plugs and receptacles. I either unplug them or flip the breaker, whichever is handier. In the case of my table saw, it's handier to flip the breaker, because the plugin is in the floor, under the outfeed table.

Steve

[John Gregory]

My breaker is easier to reach that the TS plug. BUT I do try the power switch on the saw just to make sure It is disconnected. It just gives me an extra level of comfort.

[Wes Bischel]

I unplug everything except when in use. I have a 2 year old that likes to "push button - push button!!" :rolleyes: He is good around the machinery, but all it takes is once.

A my old job, the mantra was "lock-out, tag-out" either at the main panel or on the machine. All of the WW equipment had the large lever type disconnects that can be locked with a padlock. Each person in the shop had their own lock-out padlock with only one key and an ID tag so the user could be identified. If you were doing anything like changing blades, the machine was locked out - or you were fired on the spot.

Having a lock-out policy might not be a bad safety practice for your new shop since the people working there may not know each other etc.

FWIW, Wes

[Craig Colvin]

Wow Russell, lots of good stuff there.

I've addressed most of what you have talked about. Safety is paramount to this venture and will be stressed at every point. Prior to joining members must read a safety manual and be given safety instruction on each machine. Members will be monitored to insure they are operating machines in a safe manner.

Safety glasses are absolutely required and there is an escalation procedure for failure to wear them that could eventually result in membership being revoked. Hearing and respiratory protection are also required but the escalation procedure is not quite as strict.

There won't be floor plugs. For the permanently wired machines there will be junction boxes. For most tools there will be plugs on the sides of the wall. For workbenches there are retractable reels above each.

Dust collection will be automatic with auto-blast gates.

For consumables I cover the cost of blades, sandpaper, and knives for stationary machines. The members are responsible for handheld tools. I will have a reasonable quality table saw blade on the table saws. The member has the option of switching to one of their own if they wish a better blade.

As for the European sliding saw, that has been considered but will wait until after I've been open for a while and get a feel for the clientele. The idea is to have equipment that people could own at home and might already be familiar with. Over time I will add some speciality tools that fall outside of the types of tools that people might have in their home shops. For example, laser engravers, CNC routers, etc. These are computer intensive but I am located in Silicon Valley where almost everyone is computer savvy. :)


Thanks for the thoughtful comments.
-- Craig

P.S. Don't know how close you are to Norwalk, CT but there is a similar club there. http://www.woodworkersclubnorwalk.com/

[Keith Christopher]

I unplug my saw and when I'm working on it, I have the plug in my pocket. I have to agree, it only takes a spinning blade a second to remove the ability that took years to learn and hone. How many times have you heard the phrase "I didn't know it was loaded." ? Safe is always the way.

I installed the "kick" switch like david marks has on his table saw after I leaned down to turn my saw off and caught a small block of kickback on my right cheek. once the cut is done light kick and it's off worth every second of my time to install it !


Keith

[Alan Turner]

Craig,
I will be interested to see your follow up on how successful your operation is. I wish the best for you. You might get some play with a big jointer and planer, that people even with good shops might not have.
Glad to see that insurance is not going to be a problem.
Alan

[Chris Padilla]

Craig,

Where is this place? I'm right here and would love to check out what you have cooking! A buddy of mine just stopped over yesterday and threw the very same idea at me! My father used to run Hobby shops for the Navy when we lived in Japan and I always wondered if something like that could take off. San Jose doesn't have anything like this so....

PM or email me.

[Frank Pellow]

Craig, good luck on your venture! I hope that you prosper enough that you can introduce some Felder and/or Mini-Max equipment.

I do suggest that you start off with some Festool equipment -it will really impress people and, I am sure, increase your repeat business.

Now turning to hard wiring. I strongly suggest that you do not do it. Rather, I like Rob's suggestion that: "I'd think that a plug is the safest way to guarantee the machine is powered down. You could also have a rule that the machine is unplugged when someone is through with it, with the cord laying on top. Next person goes over and sees the machine is powered down to start working. High quality twistlock plugs and receptacles will take the abuse of plugging and unplugging for a long time."

[Brian Austin]

http://www.thewoodsource.com/

A similar operation in Grand Rapids, Michigan (my hometown). It's been around for a few years. Not sure how successful they've been.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I am getting ready to go into the shop and install the 15 foot cord and plug on my 1023s. I prefer the plug since I unplug it everytime I change the blade. If I were to hardwire anything, I would defintely include a cutoff switch.

[Richard Blaine]

A system that we use at work is called "Lock out Tag out." Basically, when working on a piece of equipment, you lock the cutoff box in the off position and place a tag on it stating that it is being maintained. Then only the person who put the lock/tag is allowed to unlock/untag the equipment. With this type of system, it doesn't matter if the switch is visible -- although that is a plus and should be part of your design consideration.

I found this procedure on the web http://www.dal.ca/~ehs/radiatio_1722.html.
Here's another one http://admin.fgcu.edu/EHS/lockout.htm.

[Rob Russell]

The "Lock Out, Tag Out" (LOTO) process is great, and really required, where the disconnect is out of sight of a machine and/or multiple people could be working on different parts of a large machine and not know it. Think of a manufacturing plant floor with really huge machinery.

For a shop like this, with a bunch of electrical "amateurs" (I include myself in that group), I'd guess that using LOTO would cause a lot of confusion.

I still think unplugging the machine(s) is the simplest and cheapest way to go.

[Richard Blaine]

I still think unplugging the machine(s) is the simplest and cheapest way to go.If it were my call, I'd also go with unplugging the machines. This method is what every woodworker/handyman should be doing at home with their hand powertools, and transferring this practice to larger machinery should be simple. It's very visual in the sense that I can see the disconnection of power.

But, the poster said he didn't want to have people plugging and unplugging the machinery.

Given that fact, the best method is a Lock Out Tag Out system. It's not that much different from the suggestion of flipping the breaker, but it is definitely safer. I'd also want to position the cutoff boxes next to the machines for ease of use.

I would imagine that no one will be allowed to enter the shop without having completed a safety orientation. The use of LOTO could be covered at this point. It's not a difficult concept, and I believe that any hobbyist woodworker could understand the benefits to locking a cutoff box (the machine) in the off position prior to making blade changes.

People sometimes do stupid things, and that's why I would insist upon being the only one who could reenergize a machine that I was changing blades on. A locked cutoff box guarantees me that fact.

[Tyler Howell]

One of the reasons for the disconnect on the PM 66 is so I can lock it out. I trust the Maybe Some day son in law but I am responcible for whatever takes place on my property.

LOTO is big in my industry too. You can even get looking devices to secure a plug.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Tyler....LOTO is big in my industry too! We carry the connector covers that use LOTO locks...we use LOTO locks and multiple LOTO lock adapters and.....we have special locks and tags we use between multiple shifts....ie...one shift works 8-5...2nd shift works 5-1.....2nd shift puts on a different LOTO lock that everybody for which everybody has a key. This prevent equipment from being energized while someone from our company isn't there but it allows us to unlock it. A normal LOTO lock I am the only person who has a key for my LOTO lock. Lose a key......break out the bolt cutters......but....it's SAFE.

[christopher webb]

why would you want to do that....what if you have to move the machine sometime in it's life....be harder to do if were hard wired in don't you think

[Tyler Howell]

why would you want to do that....what if you have to move the machine sometime in it's life....be harder to do if were hard wired in don't you thinkChris,

Hey Chris
Welcome to the Creek. One thing we have no shortage of is opinions.


If you have to move it then you move it. Nothing a little time and money can't fix.
If you have a $2K-40K piece of equipment in your shop you want the maximum transfer of power. For that matter a $10 power tool.
A plug will slow that down. A hardwired machine with a disconnect will give you flexibility, and high safety with your installation. One of the challenges of designing and setting up a shop is anticipating all the possible combinations and power requirement, tool sizes and placement configurations.
A year ago I would have never guessed there would be a PM 66, 13" or planer or LV hand plane for that matter in my shop. I guess the key is to be flexible and willing to make some changes if requirements dictate,
Tyler
Live Like You Mean It!

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Chris.....Welcome to the 'Creek!

I just had a new shop built. I am doing the electrical myself and have the Service Entry about ready for inspection except for some braces on the electrical mast on my house and the electrical mast on my new shop. This weekend, work permitting, I hope to start the electrical rough in on the shop itself. Designing the eletrical layout for current and future uses has, itself, been a real slowdown in the whole process. I've been playing with "hardwired" versus "outlets".........It really becomes a matter of personal taste, use and of course, BUDGET. I've probably "over-sized" the conductors in most cases and "over-circuited" in most cases. While I'm not an electrician, I work on major medical diagnostic systems, CT and MR scanners, x-ray equipments, and have also worked on radar systems, communication systems, etc. for the last 35 years. One thing is for certain......one should install a disconnect that's handy and visible from a power tool or an outlet that's handy and visible from the same power tool for safety. Accidents seldom happen.....they are usually the fault of poor planning or work habits. When changing a blade on a TS or a bit in a router or working on any other power tool .....I want to know FOR A FACT power is removed from that tool!

Again....Welcome to the 'Creek! Beware Tyler and Chris Padilla....they have formed themselves into a group known as the "Photo Cops" and they get really lathered up when people try to post a gloat without a photo! :rolleyes: :D

[Frank Pellow]

Christopher, welcome to Saw Mill Creek.

Like Ken, I am in the process of building a new shop and like he is planning to do, I have wired in over-capacity. If you are interested in the details, look at the thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=8251. Just this week, I passed the inspection for the sub panel and the underground connection to the house. I now have one receptacle working in the shop. The rest are waiting until if finish installing the plywood on the walls and ceiling.

Unlike Tyler, I do not want to hard wire anything. Maybe I change my mind about the locations of things a lot more than he does. Also, I have trained myself to pull the plug after I have finished with a tool.

[christopher webb]

thanks for a the welcomes to the creek....i myself are in the process of putting up a new shop, and hard wiring has never crossed my mind, through out the years i too have learned to un-plug all equipment when i was servicing it, accidents are going to happen that why they are called accidents, but i can see both sides, it just seems easier to plug in eguipment versing hard wiring, for the furture, you never know what type of equipment you are going to need and where you might need to put it, or rearrange it, again thanks to all of those moving stands. but good luck to all that have hard wires, i guess the one thing that makes us all great , is our ability to be diffrent. again thanks for all the welcomes to the creek , lots of good info , and lots and lots of good ideas from diffrent people.

chris

[Craig Colvin]

Since my shop is large and 95% of the equipment will be there from the beginning I'm not anticipating having to rearrange much, but even if I do it's not that hard to redo the hardwiring.

Accidents can also happen with plugs, from a slight jolt, to flames shooting out of the outlet, I've seen quite a few and since I'm going to be having a lot of different people using the equipment I want to minimize the potential for accidents. So that one of the main reasons for wanting to go with hardwiring.

In my home shop I too unplug everything when not in use, but I don't see that as being feasible for a large classroom type workshop. The cut-offs seem like a much better approach.