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View Full Version : Anywhere a consumer can get JDS mugs?



donald bugansky
10-28-2009, 11:28 AM
I called JDS today to get some sample mugs and they insist I must have a State ID tax number doing business in the trophy business or they won't sell to me.

Any other places? I bought a bunch of samples from Laserbits but they don't have the ceramic mugs.

Thx

Gary Hair
10-28-2009, 12:39 PM
A consumer can get mugs from any business that sells them. If JDS started selling to consumers I would immediately stop buying from them. Looks like Laserbits is on that list...

Jerry Ervin
10-28-2009, 1:15 PM
I keep liking JDS more and more all the time.

I bet that there is a trophy shop somewhere near you Donald. What part of the country are you in?

Martin Boekers
10-28-2009, 1:57 PM
Many vendors won't (shouldn't) sell to those with out a business.

It would be cutting their throats, as you can see from the couple posts already. Why would we buy from a vendor that sells to an unlicensed business?

"Hobbyists" Would be in competition with legit businesses, but without the cost and responsibilities of running a business.

Marty

AL Ursich
10-28-2009, 2:21 PM
If you have your very own 75 watt laser (Saw a October post that you did buy one). I would wonder why you would not want to get a Tax ID and claim the tax deduction of the laser. Even the Flame Polisher could be depreciated over 5 or 7 years. That Expensive Corel Draw upgrade would be a great Tax Deduction too...

SO many benefits to doing it right rather than as a Hobby.

If you have the money for a top of the line Laser than I would expect you would want to be a legitimate business charging legitimate prices.

There are a few places I have seen that use the Laser for Sports stuff to fly under the radar making unlicensed sports stuff for the eager market.

If your happy keeping it a Hobby Machine then don't expect Commercial Suppliers to sell to you.

Bottom Line here is that no one cares if you want a Laser as a Hobby, but if you cross into the Commercial market you need to go Legit.

I can just imagine the amount of Hobby "Sports" Stuff that will be produced in the next few weeks.

AL

donald bugansky
10-28-2009, 6:57 PM
Al,

First, regardless of what you may think or your comments, I have no interest in a commercial business at this time and have no intention of "producing" any "hobby sports stuff" now or in the distant future. Secondly, don't appreciate your tone or implied "legitimate business charging legitimate prices" content.

As suggested by some of the folks on the forum, I was simply trying to get items/samples to "try" to see what I may like engraving. I assume everyone on my Christmas list will get something from the wood shop including the laser engraver. As stated several times, the wood shop/laser engraver is my relax time away from business stress.

This is only a hobby but may turn into some business years down the road when I retire.

If JDS only sells to re-sellers fine, I don't have a problem with that and did not realize that until I called them today as someone suggested.

If I need to buy from Trophy shop, fine. The only Trophy shop in my area is very lax when it comes to customer service as I waited 4 months to get a outdoor plaque made this spring when we had to put my wife's dog to sleep. After 4 separate visits to his shop and repeated calls, it finally showed up 4 months later than was expected.

I'll look elsewhere for the JDS mugs, thanks for your assistance.

Lee DeRaud
10-28-2009, 7:48 PM
First, regardless of what you may think or your comments, I have no interest in a commercial business at this time and have no intention of "producing" any "hobby sports stuff" now or in the distant future. Secondly, don't appreciate your tone or implied "legitimate business charging legitimate prices" content.

As suggested by some of the folks on the forum, I was simply trying to get items/samples to "try" to see what I may like engraving. I assume everyone on my Christmas list will get something from the wood shop including the laser engraver. As stated several times, the wood shop/laser engraver is my relax time away from business stress.I'll second that.

I've got the freakin' business license and tax ID etc, and still have to put up with snotty attitudes from suppliers who don't want to sell to me because I don't have a store-front and/or don't want to buy truckload-sized quantities.

But I sure didn't expect to see people here saying "hobbyist" like it's a four-letter word.

Martin Boekers
10-28-2009, 8:51 PM
Sorry if I offended anyone with "Hobbyist"

It wasn't intended. In an earlier post, by Don he said it was to be a "Hobby" for him. So if it wasn't to be a business I felt "Hobbyist" was alright.

I have had issues with vendors (I'm sure everyone here has) Some charge the same price for one piece or a thousand. If my client orders a 1000 pieces he expects a discount from me.

I have narrowed down the vendors I deal with on a regular basis by how they handle their business. One of my main suppliers offers a generous discount if you purchase a minimal amount of product a year from them. Guess what, I have increased my purchases greatly from them. Not only do they give a more competative price with a high quality product, but their service is outstanding.

Have I heard from the other vendors why my purchases are down with them? Not a word. Hmmmm I guess they don't miss my business.

Not to offend again but, there are some very good high quality vendors out there. You may have to search them out. I have never had to buy anywhere near a truckload to get a maximum discount. Typically it's just buy a case get maximum case pricing.

Sorry all:(

Lee DeRaud
10-29-2009, 1:20 AM
Not to offend again but, there are some very good high quality vendors out there. You may have to search them out.I already have, thank you.

But unlike some others posting on this thread, I don't use the fact that a vendor will sell to hobbyists/consumers as a litmus test in determining whether they are "high quality" or not.

YMMV.

Martin Boekers
10-29-2009, 10:36 AM
I guess the point I was trying to make had nothing to do with quality it was more about being competative.

If someone set up shop and didn't legitimatly make it a business, and was able to buy products from the same supplier and at the same cost structure I did it would be difficult to compete with them.

First off they would not be paying sales tax (state or Local) which would give them about a 10% advantage to start with. (pretty good in this economy)

Second, is the income tax rates, if it is even claimed as income, are different for non business income and business genrated income.

Third, if it wasn't to be a main or partial income source, just breaking even or maybe losing a bit would be fine to them. This would allow them to undercut reasonable pricing even more.

This economy is tough enough to compete in and any little advantage can make the difference who gets the work.

I'd like to believe that it least we are on a level playing field with our direct competitors.

Imagine this; say your neighbor bought a laser, set it up in his basement.
he has some similar contacts that you have. First it's just a hobby. Then one day at a social event he mentions he bought a laser. Someone mentions he buys engraved "stuff" from you, this is what you charge could he do it cheaper? Hmmmm.

He calls a vendor up gets pricing (the same as you pay and doesn't need to be a business) Says I can do it for half of what you do and still make a little money. He thinks this is great I can sell something I made.

Hey calls back the person he talked with and now that $5000 job you've done for years is gone becuase someone without the investment that you have made got it for $2500.

You lost a client, next word starts to get around in smaller communities as it does. Others start to say if he can do it so cheaply why are you charging so much?

With laser prices coming down, they are getting more affordable for the h*****t. I'm sure most of us have lost a job or two to someone putting out high quality work in their basement or in the near future will.


Marty

Jerry Ervin
10-29-2009, 10:47 AM
Very well said Marty!

Lee DeRaud
10-29-2009, 11:02 AM
I'd like to believe that it least we are on a level playing field with our direct competitors.You are using rather odd definitions for "level playing field" and "direct competitor". Not to mention an extremely offensive assumption that anyone who buys a laser for any purpose other than opening a business is ultimately going to use it to break the law. By the logic I'm seeing here, lumber yards should refuse to sell 2x4s and plywood to anyone who doesn't have a contractor license.

(The one amusing thing about this attitude is that it's almost identical to the one scrollsaw people have about lasers.)

Scott Shepherd
10-29-2009, 11:20 AM
Lee, how does anyone sell anything made with a laser without being a business?

I don't take the posts made to be in a tone that reads offensive, but you are clearly offended. I'd just like some clarification of your view. If you buy material, laser it, and sell it, how's that not a business?

Lee DeRaud
10-29-2009, 11:22 AM
Let me be very clear about this:

I do not give a flying <TOS violation redacted> how anyone chooses to conduct their own business.

What I do care about is how people on this forum are treated when they ask a rather simple and innocent question. On reading Donald's original post, I fully expected the immediate responses to be a mix of:

1. "Vendor X has very similar items and sells to consumers/hobbyists." or

2. "I have a JDS customer number...what do you need?"

Instead I see a bunch of <TOS violation redacted>, basically accusing Donald of trying to steal from you fine upstanding businessmen. Take it somewhere else.

Scott Shepherd
10-29-2009, 11:26 AM
Lee, hold the phone there. You read it that way as did Donald, but many of us read the same thing and didn't take it that way at all. You could very well be misreading the intent and getting upset by a misunderstanding.

Being that the person that posted had contributed so much to the forum in the past, I seriously doubt their intention was to call out anyone for being less than honest by any means.

I certainly didn't read it that way.

Lee DeRaud
10-29-2009, 11:45 AM
Lee, how does anyone sell anything made with a laser without being a business?

I don't take the posts made to be in a tone that reads offensive, but you are clearly offended. I'd just like some clarification of your view. If you buy material, laser it, and sell it, how's that not a business?First, I'd like to point out a singular lack of imagination being exhibited in this thread. For some reason (perhaps the high entry price), it is assumed that anyone who owns a laser bought it with the intention of opening a business to make money with it. Note that that assumption is not made for high-end woodworking equipmentor even CAD/CAM machinery) in other forums here on the Creek. And yes, there are quite a few amateur woodworkers here with saws and lathes that cost more than my laser.

Second, for some reason (perhaps the same lack of imagination), it is also assumed that if person X is buying something to engrave that laser-shop-operator Y is wont to sell, obviously X is buying it for the express purpose of selling that item in direct competition with Y. Couldn't just be Xmas presents for relatives, oh no, that's way too innocent.

In the interests of full disclosure, yes, technically/legally I operate a business: have the license, the tax ID, even (sort of) a website. It exists for the sole purpose of keeping the flat surfaces of my home visible to the naked eye: for me, there is a razor-thin line between "home decor" and "inventory". Am I competing with any of the engraving shop owners on this thread? Possibly, but I seriously doubt it: I find the kinds of things they do for a living intensely boring, and I suspect they find the kinds of things I do (not for a living) intensely unprofitable. But for some reason, they see people like me as a threat and think it's a good thing when vendors make me jump through hoops to get raw materials to support my hobby/business/whatever.

Lee DeRaud
10-29-2009, 12:00 PM
Clarification: my post #14 was not in response to Scott's post #13, it was a stand-alone comment. They just crossed in the mail...I type slow, so sue me.

Carry on.

Lee DeRaud
10-29-2009, 12:09 PM
Lee, hold the phone there. You read it that way as did Donald, but many of us read the same thing and didn't take it that way at all. You could very well be misreading the intent and getting upset by a misunderstanding.Certainly possible, but when phrases like "legitimate business charging legitimate prices", "fly under the radar making unlicensed sports stuff", and "unlicensed business" fly around, I'm at a bit of a loss how else to read it. No, they didn't directly accuse Donald of that, but it certainly came close. (Read post #5 again for an example.)

Scott Shepherd
10-29-2009, 12:23 PM
Lee, I'm not sure how you read my posts, but I'll tell you the tone my post was meant in.

I was genuinely curious if there was a part of the market that allowed you to make things and sell them without being a proper business (proper meaning having all the necessary license, etc.). I wasn't sure if people were doing things like for churches, or donating things, or what. I was actually curious if there was some part of the market I didn't know about.

So my tone and question was asked as an attempt to educate myself on something I may not even know existed.

I wanted to clear that up. Not sure how you read it, but that's how it was meant.

Martin Boekers
10-29-2009, 1:07 PM
Lee,

Now I am offended by accusations that you are making.

I read my posts over many times and can't understand where you find me accusing anyone that buys a laser for personal use of doing things that are illegal. In fact nothing in my statement said anything about legality.

The point was if they were not paying any of this that, yes they could charge less for a product than competition could.

Yes if people sell their products, they are responsible for taxes (sales and earned sorry, but I didn't make that law) How people deal with that IS their own business.

Wholesale/Resell vendors are just that not consumer vendors.

They have resposibilities too. If they don't charge taxes on items they better back it up to a vendor with a tax ID.


As for Buying lumber from a lumber yard???

Hmmm Contracters DO pay a different price (Wholesale) than I pay as a consumer. They even have their own counter and check out (Lowes, Home Depot)

As for laser and scrollsaw, maybe I'm wrong but I thought scrollsawers felt that since the final product was machine cut that it lacked the craft that they do by hand and had nothing to do with being a reseller or a consumer.

I felt I have contributed to this post as consideratly as I could, I expressed my views, others have expressed theirs. That's what's nice about these forums. Everyone who takes the time and effort to participate can.

Can't we have a civilized discussion without accusing people and using language that violates forum rules?

Marty

Lee DeRaud
10-29-2009, 1:18 PM
I was genuinely curious if there was a part of the market that allowed you to make things and sell them without being a proper business (proper meaning having all the necessary license, etc.). I wasn't sure if people were doing things like for churches, or donating things, or what. I was actually curious if there was some part of the market I didn't know about.No worries: I have no issue with anything you've said on this thread.

As to your question, I can't speak for other parts of the country, but where I am, in general, if you sell you must have at least a state sales tax ID. The good news is, it's trivially easy to get a temporary one for things like craft fairs. (Actually, for all I know, it might be required to get a temporary one for such an event. I don't do craft fairs, so I'm not certain my regular one would be valid there.) There may be exemptions for charity/church events and the like.

Business license laws are at a local level. My city has a "hobby business" category (yes, they actually call it that :cool:), which is a flat annual $27 fee that covers anything up to (IIRC) $30K in gross sales. Above that it's the typical filing-fee-plus-percentage-of-gross arrangement. (You'd think enforcement would be an issue, but it is actually trivial: when you get a state tax ID, the state informs the city where you reside. One of the few instances of state and locals cooperating effectively here.)

That said, are there people operating as unlicensed businesses? Of course. But it's not like there's any huge barrier to setting up legitimately, at least now where I am. But I greatly dislike terms like "proper business", because everybody reads something different into it, e.g. requiring a store-front.

Lee DeRaud
10-29-2009, 1:30 PM
Can't we have a civilized discussion without accusing people and using language that violates forum rules?
Odd...I would have expected that a "civilized discussion" would have started with someone actually answering Donald's original question. Didn't happen.

What you and others did do was, instead of simply answering that question, choose to talk about unfair competition from hypothetical people who happen to be similar in some respects to the guy that asked the question. Direct accusation? No. Offensive? Yes.

(Re "language that violates forum rules": also didn't happen. Those '<TOS violation redacted>' things? I put them in, not the moderator.)

Keith Outten
10-29-2009, 2:38 PM
This is the original post:

Anywhere a consumer can get JDS mugs?
I called JDS today to get some sample mugs and they insist I must have a State ID tax number doing business in the trophy business or they won't sell to me.

Any other places? I bought a bunch of samples from Laserbits but they don't have the ceramic mugs.

Lets get back on topic folks!
.

AL Ursich
10-29-2009, 3:47 PM
The Cups are a Commercial Product and like another thread of this post said... Lets get back on topic.... Anyone know of a place this guy can get similar ready to go Laser Mugs for his Laser...?

Good Luck,

AL:)

Edit: After looking at the Shop Pictures in the other post I really feel like a DIRTBAG with EGG on my face....

David Takes
10-29-2009, 11:36 PM
I believe JDS is ahead of the curve with the coating on this ceramic. I am sure we will see more products in the future with this coating because of the success they are having with the mugs. I am sure we will also see some clones from other suppliers in the future. Way to go JDS for your innovation with this product.

Dave Garcia
10-30-2009, 1:20 AM
One and all,

Good point Keith. Thank you for getting "us" back on track.

My two cents. There's a reason it's called free enterprise! And competitive pricing is the key. If someone can do the same thing for less? Sounds pretty American to me!

Keith, isn't that what this forum is supposed to be all about, sharing information? If not, then possibly it's time to move elsewhere?

Dave Garcia :rolleyes::)
The Wood Block, Ltd

Hawaiian rule: To be rich, make more or desire less!

Keith Outten
10-30-2009, 12:55 PM
Dave,

The Creek is definately about sharing information. We also try to stay on topic as best we can to be courteous to the OP and not redirect his thread into a different direction.

We also have individual Forums here so information can be organized by various topics. This makes it easier for those with specific interests to find information and it makes our archives valuable for woodwokers yet to come.
.

Dave Garcia
10-31-2009, 11:03 AM
Keith,

Sounds good. Hope you and your fellow forum moderators can keep it that way!

Dave Garcia ;):)
The Wood Block, Ltd

Conrad Fiore
10-31-2009, 7:54 PM
Donald,
I don't see why you can't purchase blank mugs from a JDS retailer. Call JDS and ask them for their dealers in your area. Nobody says you have to purchase the mugs with engraving. We constantly have people bring in plaques and trophies that were purchased sans the engraving and ask us to engrave them. Unfortunately for them, we don't usually touch retail items and stick to commercial and industrial engarving. However we occassionally make exceptions for the local boy/girl scouts and volunteer organizations. Our price for this service is "no charge" if they promise never to tell where they had the work done so we don't have a line of people come in with door knockers and such.