Why are pen turners treated as second class turners?

[Ben Brown27]

So not starting any flame wars here just curious about peoples opinions.

I love pens. Turning pens got me started turning, and its still one of my favorite activities. I've also made some fairly complicated pens that have 6-8+ hours of work in them. I can also see improvements in pens turned over the course of my experiences. So I know skill is involved, because the actuall finished product improves with practice.

I've noticed though that in general wood turning groups, pens and pen turners seem to get pushed to the back. On this board it seems like bowl and HF threads get many more replies then pen threads. Outside this in the turning groups I attend, people rarely seem to show off pens they've made and they rarely seem to have comments on pens that are shown. Why do you think people don't appreciate the skill and beauty in a well made pen?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ben,

I don't know that folks treat pen turners as 2nd class turners. They are just responding to the threads that interest them more.

I seldom respond to threads in the Neander forum because I'm not interested.

I don't respond to threads about vacumn chucks. I don't have one and am not interested at this time.

[Rick Prosser]

I've noticed though that in general wood turning groups, pens and pen turners seem to get pushed to the back. On this board it seems like bowl and HF threads get many more replies then pen threads. Not sure what you mean by pushed to the back? I agree with Ken about comments and replies.


Outside this in the turning groups I attend, people rarely seem to show off pens they've made and they rarely seem to have comments on pens that are shown.I have had just the opposite experience in my area. We even had a new pen makers group start recently. I guess it depends on what is going on in your particular area.


Why do you think people don't appreciate the skill and beauty in a well made pen?That might be a long jump to a conclusion;). Even if pen makers don't get as many replies - that does not mean the people don't appreciate a good pen. I don't reply a lot on pens (or other turnings), but I am very impressed (and envious) with what is being accomplished.:)

[Bill Arnold]

Have you found the Forum that is primarily for pen-turners? There are certainly no second-class citizens there. If interested, PM me.

[Sean Hughto]

I'm a beginning turner - been at it about 6 weeks now. I've done plenty of spindle turning and a couple bowls so far. I haven't tried pens yet, but frankly, am not that interested. I have no preconception about pen turners being second class. As far as my own interest, I may well be wrong, but pen turning looks like it involves as much fiddling with metal pen parts as turning wood. And while it may be challenging to do well, and fine pens are beautiful and useful objects, the turning part doesn't look like it has too many options - all just various bulges on cylinders. Again, I'm a know nothing, so please, show me some pens that I could get excited about turning - not because of the beautiful wood choosen, or the fine metal parts, but because of the interesting way the artist has applied the tools to the wood at the lathe. Bowl blanks and hollow forms are wide open in this respect - infinite curves, thicknesses, rims, covers, etc.

[Ralph Lindberg]

Ben
While I haven't really noticed an overt attitude here, I have seen select people on other forums treat pen turners, well, with no respect.
But then these same individuals treat any turner that doesn't use the same tools they do, in the same ways, with no respect.

I attribute that more a lack of knowledge in those persons then anything else

BTW, if you want to see some pens that took insane skill, look for the Pen Turners forum (IAP)

[John Keeton]

Let me offer some thoughts from a newbie turner. There are approximately 46,000 members on SMC and Lord knows how many viewers that never register. That means there are literally thousands of diverse interests - all in some way connected by woodworking.

For me - and please do not take this the wrong way - I do not understand the pen making thing. It has no interest for me, and while I think I appreciate the work that goes into making them, I rarely open a thread that involves pens.

While there are some bowls and hollow forms that strike me simply because of the beauty of the wood, I am not an artist by any means, and have little inate ability to appreciate the effort and art form. My interest level is limited to the wood itself. I probably couldn't differentiate an award winning turning from a piece of trash, but I can easily distinguish the ones that appeal to me.

Similarly, I rarely open threads gloating over a new woodworking machine. I am happy for the new owner, but honestly, I have the machines for which I have the room and monetary resources (not so much with the handtools, though!:D) Unless I am contemplating a tool purchase, I don't have much interest in those threads.

I guess, with all this rambling, the point is we are a very diverse group, with interest levels all over the board. My guess would be there is nearly that much diversity even within the world of turners. For me turning is just a way of adding a skill for furniture making. I lurk in this forum for information on spindle turning, and occasionally a thread will jump out at me. I rarely comment because I don't know enough to comment.

It is a big world - don't feel left out just because there are a bunch of us out there that aren't into the pens. You probably feel the same way about my flat work - and, I am OK with that.

[Dave Schell]

Ditto what Sean said for me. I was thinking of a good way to put that and he nailed it. There are some absolutely gorgeous pens that I envy tremendously and one day I hope to learn to make some. But I'm still in my formative years of turning so I'm more interested in projects that require significant amounts of actual turning (rather than drilling and assembling). Granted, I've never turned a pen so I have no idea what I'm talking about. Maybe it's like what they say about NASCAR - you aren't really interested in it until you actually go to a race, and then you become absolutely hooked on it.

[Mike Minto]

because you make small things, and real men (and women) only make large turnings :p - just kidding - i prefer to make bowls and hollow forms, but have gotten much pleasure from making pens and other small items recently. as tony the tiger says, 'they're great'. mike

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ben,

Google IAP or Inernational Association of Penturners.........or go to www dot penturners.org

[alex carey]

I have to wonder, when making a pen that takes 6-8 hours, how much time is spent with a tool in your hand cutting the wood.

[Mack Cameron]

I have to wonder, when making a pen that takes 6-8 hours, how much time is spent with a tool in your hand cutting the wood.About 10 minutes!

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=131209&stc=1&d=1256741614

[Dennis McGarry]

I have to wonder, when making a pen that takes 6-8 hours, how much time is spent with a tool in your hand cutting the wood.

That is a hard question to answer, some as below are quick once you have the jibs setup, and some like slimlines take a complete 15 minutes to make then maybe another 15 for finishing.

Others like heavly detailed segmented pens can take hours with tool(s) in hand, not just a gouge or skew either...

[John Keeton]

About 10 minutes!TOUCHE' !! And, about 7.8 hours putting together all those little celtic knots! Point well taken Mack, and some beautiful work, I might add. But, still doesn't spark an interest for me.

But, I sure am glad you guys are doing some of this type work because it does generate a general interest in woodworking - and, that has to be a good thing. The more people involved in this hobby/endeavor, the more industry support there will be in the way of new tool designs, etc. And, I personally think it is a great hobby for young folks that sometimes seem to have no other creative outlet in their lives. Keep up the good work!

BTW Mack, that isn't some of those scraps I sent you a while back is it?

[ROY DICK]

To each his/her own.

Roy

[Ted Calver]

"Why do you think people don't appreciate the skill and beauty in a well made pen?"

It's a matter of interest. I enjoy turning pens and pencils, but in the end I've only turned a decorative cover for some complicated and sometimes pricey innards that a machine made. I don't have as much "me" invested in a creation i only make a cover for, where with other turnings-- aside from the wood, the end result is all mine.

[Mack Cameron]

TOUCHE' !!
[quote]BTW Mack, that isn't some of those scraps I sent you a while back is it? Hi John; I recall you sent me some Chestnut. I don't recall you sending me the Pau Amarello. Kindly correct me if I'm wrong. There is a long story behind the making of that pen!

[Bernie Weishapl]

I agree with all. I think it is in the interest of the turner. I love doing small mini birdhouses, ornaments, etc. A lot of turners don't care one way or another for them and thats ok. I do like doing pens and pencils. I also like doing bowls and HF's. Sometimes I don't chime in but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the beauty and skill it takes to make pens & pencils. I don't think I have ever seen any evidence of pen turners being second class turners on this forum or any forum I frequent.

By the way Mack that pen is a beauty.

[John Keeton]

Mack, I wouldn't know Pau Amarello if I had it in my hand!! When it gets beyond the native woods for KY, I don't have much knowledge - maybe that is part of my lack of interest on the penmaking??!!??

[phil harold]

I thought it had to do with the camp song:


"the bigger the better
the tighter the sweater
the boys are depending on us"

are we not all told the bigger the better
bigger house, bigger truck, bigger shop...
If you dont believe me just check your junk mail

I am going to do a pen soon but I want a big one not a slimline

I like mack's pen style
What kit did you use?

[Robert Parrish]

I have been turning spindles and bowls for over 30 years and I started doing pens a couple of years ago. The main reason I like turning pens is that I get instant gratification, I can turn a pen in 10-15 minutes and have a finished project. It take me 2 months or more to build a Carousel horse. It doesn't matter what you make as long as you enjoy woodworking!

[Bob Borzelleri]

I think there is something to the question the OP originally posed. For the record, I have never turned a pen and my entire experience with turning consists of buying, assembling and wiping cosmoline off a Nova 1624 as of last Sunday. I'm still reading and getting familiar with things before I put tool to wood.

In the relatively short time that I have spent looking into turning, I had spoken to several folks who were experienced turners and only one did pens regularly. The others didn't bad mouth pen turning, but there seemed to be some degree of non verbal communication suggesting that they were not into pen turning and that maybe they saw pen turning as a lesser form of turning. One commented directly stating that there wasn't much turning involved in making a pen.

I came away from those discussions with the thought that I would not purchase a lathe that was designed for smaller work like pens because I knew I would want to work with larger projects. But, I also had the feeling that I would want to do a pen or two.

If there is a tendency for folks to see pen turning as a step down from working with larger projects, it occurs to me that one reason might be the perception of the pen as a tool rather than a work of artistic design.

Maybe the fact that a Google search of "Pen Turning" will reveal hit after hit of Pen Making kits where there there aren't "Hollow Form" kits adds to the perception that pen making is easy while other forms of turning are "a step up".

I know that it is not easy for me to change my perception of pens from tools to works of art, but I know that I have done just that after seeing some of the fine work that has been produced by talented pen turners.

[Ben Brown27]

Have you found the Forum that is primarily for pen-turners? There are certainly no second-class citizens there. If interested, PM me.

Yep I read that forum fairly frequently. If you ever see davinci27 that's me.

[Ben Brown27]

I have to wonder, when making a pen that takes 6-8 hours, how much time is spent with a tool in your hand cutting the wood.

Not all 6-8 hours, but you do spend a good bit of time working on the actual pen itself. Cutting, polishing, drilling, figuring out the best way to put it together, throwing out your first try, etc.

Take this pen for example and excuse the pic quality. It took several hours and several times to get this pen done. If you look there the actual wood continues into the clear tubes, and the final thickness of this wood is about 1/32 of an inch with no metal tube for support. it's also closed end on each side and has a hidden clip.

I think sometimes people seem to think turning pens is just spinning two pieces of wood to the size of the bushing, and they miss the opportunity to find ways to use their skills.

[John Terefenko]

I too will fall into the class of individual tastes. I am not the least bit interested in bowl turning. It does absolutely nothing for me. Yes it is nice to look at natures colors of woods but give me a segmented bowl or vessel and now you are talking. The combination of colors and all the attention and work that goes into it is extrodinary. A standard bowl does not require alot of work but there is certain tools and techniques to follow but not all that difficult.

Pen turning has brought life to the turning industry because it is easy and require very little time and tools. I think pen turning has introduced so many new turners to the hobby and has caused an explosion. It has done more to the turning industry than all the bowl turning in the world can ever do. Pen turners should never be looked down as second class turners. Bigger is not always better. It is a hobby that has driven me to new excitement and I think that is what turning and any other artform is about. We would be a very boring society if we all liked the same things.

Here some pens that are a little more than just sticking a piece of wood between centers.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/JTTHECLOCKMAN/comboknots-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/JTTHECLOCKMAN/-animated-pen-knot-good-file.gif

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/JTTHECLOCKMAN/IMGP0368-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/JTTHECLOCKMAN/cartridgepengoodone-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/JTTHECLOCKMAN/CopyofIMGP0448.jpg

[Jerome Hanby]

For the same reason that everyone hates Radial Arm Saws.

I like Radial Arm Saws, have always been fixated on them, and anti-RAS comments really catch my attention.

Obviously not everyone hates the RAS, I'm just sensitive to that subject.

On the other hand, hearing about some huge bowl blank taking flight and causing murder and mayhem is pretty cool. Hearing about a pen blank crack while turning and having to mount another of the dozen you prepared when you cut and drilled the first one isn't nearly as exciting. But you do get alot more "ta-da" moments.

[Josh Reet]

It's funny, other than some specific dowel wood/size combos for peg construction ideas, the only thing that interests me at the moment about turning is pens. Why? Well, mostly because I love using fountain pens. I figure that making a pile of them would be pretty dang cool as long as I could buy kits with quality nibs. I have little to no interest in bowls or hollow forms or what have you. I'm much more interested in making things that I would actually use. And now that I have been given a "gathering dust" delta lathe that was my father in laws, I might have to get off my butt and learn to use it.

But to be fair, from an outsider's point of view, I can see a bit what the OP is saying. Pen turning seems to be the "photo of a pretty sunset" of the turning world. It's quick and easy to get into and everyone does it. If a non-woodworker knows what turning is at all, they are likely to say "oh, so you make pens". Nobody says "Oh, so you make hollow forms?". Thus, I think the skill to make the more complicated pens is overshadowed by every craft fair booth selling racks of generic turned pens. Much like in photography the actual skill to do serious nature photography is overshadowed by every booth at a arts fair with walls filled with "pretty" sunset shots. So while everyone should be respected for doing something they enjoy, some number of people are going to get huffy about how too many make/sell/etc pens and not enough of them appreciate the work that goes into other turnings.

That having been said, this community (outside of OT forum bickering) is one of the more helpful and polite that I have been a part of on the net, and I run forums for a living. So around here I have a feeling that it's like people have stated above. They aren't likely to threadcrap on someone for asking about pens, but they aren't going to bother to open a thread that they aren't interested in either.

[Ben Brown27]

IPen turning seems to be the "photo of a pretty sunset" of the turning world. It's quick and easy to get into and everyone does it.

I think those are some good points. The thing I've noticed is that people just say pens are quick and easy. To be honest, I've found follow forms pretty easy so far, but many of my pens have been quite challenging. Don't get me wrong, I love bowls and HFs. I've been making alot of them lately, but I haven't had to spend as much time thinking through problems as I do when I make pens.


Thus, I think the skill to make the more complicated pens is overshadowed by every craft fair booth selling racks of generic turned pens.

I can see this one as well. There's a turner in my local club that is the "Pen Guy." He sets up at all the fairs and sells his pens, but he sales them cheap, and the fit an finish is just not there. He doesn't apply a finish just buffs the wood. The wood is often gapped, slightly under turned or overturned where the parts come together. But he makes them by the handful and sells the for $20 a pop. It's hard to compete with that sometimes.

[Steve Schlumpf]

Ben - lets see if I can put this into words correctly..... I don't see pen turners as second class turners even though I may not comment on each and every pen thread. Fact is, they turn something I have not and while I do often comment on the looks of the pen - I haven't a clue on all the steps it takes to make one.

My neighbor, Bob Hainstock, turns absolutely beautiful pens, some of which he has posted here on the Creek but received very few comments on his work. I don't know why - he does outstanding work! Bob has tried a number of times to explain the steps it takes to turn pens and, honestly, my eyes just sort of glaze over. Just way to much thinking for me!

So, while I can appreciate the beauty of a finely crafted pen, I can not add a lot to the thread with regards to procedure, style, curves, finishes - like I normally would when dealing with the turnings I am familiar with.

I hope that those folks who turn pens stick with it and continue to post their work. It is through seeing what they have accomplished that I can appreciate their efforts - even though I have not turned a pen myself.

[William Payer]

I have to agree with the OP. On some forums(not this one) there is definitely an attitude (and even specific comments to the thought) that "anyone can turn a pen" and it involves little skill. In fact a few months ago on a very popular woodworking forum, a turner was actively berating pen turners as not worthy of any respect and essentially skill-less.
Pen turning can vary in skill levels from the modest to the very difficult, as has been seen by some of the posts in this very thread. The same can be said for bowl turning, simple to segmented, basic to hollowforms ( excuse me HF turners for including you as a bowl turner, but I did it for brevity rather than make another specific example of varied skills)

On this forum I have not ( in about 3 years) seen anyone actively disrespect anyone for their type of turning they enjoy. I like that. If you enjoy any specific element of turning then go for it, its all about enjoyment and developing skills that each of us value personally. I have done pens extensively for a while, now am currently in "bowl mode" and who knows what is next?
OK enough of the soap box routine......

[Wally Dickerman]

I know exactly what Ben is saying, and to some extent it's true. I think that it gets down a perceived skill level in turning. In my classes I can teach a beginner the basics of turning a pen in one session. Only a part of that time is spent in actual turning. I can't even come close to teaching a beginner to turn a thin-walled, small opening HF in one or even several sessions.

I've been turning for a very long time and until a few months ago I had never turned a pen from a kit. I decided to turn a few as gifts and now I'm having fun turning pens. I never looked down my nose at pen turners, but I think that I did regard it as a no-skill type of turning.

I'm even helping a friend teach 16 year olds to turn pens in a high school shop class.

Wally

[Mack Cameron]

I thought it had to do with the camp song:


"the bigger the better
the tighter the sweater
the boys are depending on us"
are we not all told the bigger the better
bigger house, bigger truck, bigger shop...
If you dont believe me just check your junk mail

I am going to do a pen soon but I want a big one not a slimline

I like mack's pen style
[quote]What kit did you use?

https://www.laulauwood.net/node/42

[Cody Colston]

I don't look on penturners as second class citizens...I turn pens myself. But, I don't look on it as real turning, either. The late Eagle said it best in calling himself a pencrafter as opposed to a pen turner.

I'm also a member over at IAP and there are some fantastic pens displayed there. No doubt that it takes tremendous skill and attention to detail to craft them, but the turning is the easy part. Even final dimensioning to get a perfect fit with the bushings is done with sandpaper vs a gouge or skew.

Get a major catch while turning a pen and the blank will likely just rotate on the mandrel...no big deal. Get a major catch while roughing a large bowl blank and you may have to go change your underwear.

[Dan Forman]

Well, at least this thread about pens got more than a couple of responses.:)

I agree that as a pen turner, I don't feel "second class" on this forum, and agree with the responses of others - that number of responses is a reflection of individual interest. I got started turning pens, and only relatively recently got into bowls.

I do think that in general (among turners), there may be a bias in favor of projects not requiring kits, something made from just a chunk of raw wood, as being somehow more organic.

There are many ways of taking pen making to the next level of skill and design. We have seen in this thread some beautiful examples of segmented pen bodies and kit modifications. I have gone in another direction, partially due to my dissatisfaction with the weight and limited design options available in kits.

I have developed a fascination with fountain pens in particular (all I use now), and have gone to making most of my own parts for them, other than the nib/feed/section and clip. This gives me much more control over the design and weight of the pen. Here are a couple of examples, one of which was just recently posted.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l279/T-Caster/P1020361.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l279/T-Caster/P1020369.jpg


http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l279/T-Caster/P1020374.jpg

These pens take about 6 to 8 hours to complete, due to the many precise operations needed to fabricate the parts, many of which have tolerances to a few thousandths of an inch - multi step tenon for the centerband, three threading operations, fitting the "jewels" to the ends of the pen, cutting and truing the silver and acrylic bands, and of course lots of head scratching and hemming and hawing. But the result is a well balanced, lightweight pen that fits my hand well, and that nobody else has ever seen before.

Dan

[Josh Reet]

But the result is a well balanced, lightweight pen that fits my hand well, and that nobody else has ever seen before.

Dan

Oh man, I was with you right up until "lightweight"! Seriously though, beautiful pens.

[Mark Hix]

It is all individual perception. I have had people tell me they were amazed at my pens but I know that I am only an average pen maker. They were not turners but some were made excellent flat work. Even among other turners, I have never felt like a second class turner.

I started in bowls and love to turn them. I stumbled on pens and found them just as much fun as bowls. My original intention was to do small projects that I could improve my skills on for bowls. Now my pens finance my bowl addition.

[Dennis McGarry]

I don't look on penturners as second class citizens...I turn pens myself. But, I don't look on it as real turning, either. The late Eagle said it best in calling himself a pencrafter as opposed to a pen turner.

I'm also a member over at IAP and there are some fantastic pens displayed there. No doubt that it takes tremendous skill and attention to detail to craft them, but the turning is the easy part. Even final dimensioning to get a perfect fit with the bushings is done with sandpaper vs a gouge or skew.

Get a major catch while turning a pen and the blank will likely just rotate on the mandrel...no big deal. Get a major catch while roughing a large bowl blank and you may have to go change your underwear.

That maybe true, but I would think most would be doing the final turning with the Skew not sandpaper, the goal is to eliminate as much sanding as possible as the closer to the finished turning you can get it, the better the finish.

As for getting a catch and having it just spin, Not on my lathe. I have had more blanks explode on me then I care to admit to. While turning a bloodwood (and demented) blank, it explode 6 times, and on the last one shot the skew out of my hand down past my arm and took out a plate glass window behind me!

I have meant recently a few that can turn a great bowl, but not a pen, getting that close to the barrel and not blowing it apart is not as easy as some make it sound.

I personally think the overall end product is most important. One has to take in account all the steps involved not just one or two. HB360 pens for example, that is not just turning a blank, but art in form.

Some could say a basic spindle turning of a chair leg is nothing but a few coves and beads as well

A turner is a turner is a turner Like a painter is a painter weather its oil or charcoal.

[George Morris]

I have been turning for 5 years. I have never tried a Pen . I would love to try some but keep getting side tracked on to some other form. A good friend has offered to tutor me [Tom] but we have not been able to hook up yet.
In conclusion I love the pens and appreciate the skill involved. G

[alex carey]

For me turning is all about fun and unless 75% of the work is done with a tool in my hand and shavings in my beard its not for me. I just don't find all the other stuff that comes with pen turnings very much fun. Same goes with segmented work. Not worse, just not for me.

[Paul Atkins]

The only pen I've turned was a walnut dowel with a hole drilled through so I could put a Bic pen refill in. The glut of import fake wood and shiny do-dads have made me blind to turned pens I guess. I see them at craft fairs and gift shops and just pass them by. Lots have no wood in them at all. I want a pen to write well and feel good in my hand. I miss my Cross pen that wrote so smooth even after getting run over. I imagine there are good pen sets and poor ones, but do you know how they write before you order them? Can you get refills easily and forever? I'm sure I will turn a pen or two, probably a fountain pen but I'll have to see something that I feel is worth the effort. I think the stigma that some pen turners feel is due to the fact that you can get a pack of ball point pens for a couple of bucks that write pretty well. If you don't like them, you can try another pac-o-pens. I'm not sure people write as much nowadays either. I'm not writing this with a pen --

[Mack Cameron]

[quote]Can you get refills easily and forever? As long as Parker and/or Cross keep making them! They are available at any good stationery store.

[John Keeton]

Get a major catch while roughing a large bowl blank and you may have to go change your underwear.


While turning a bloodwood (and demented) blank, it explode 6 times, and on the last one shot the skew out of my hand down past my arm and took out a plate glass window behind me!Now there are two encouraging remarks that make me want to try bowls AND pens!! When I did my first set of turned legs, I got a few skates, but no dirty underwear moments!!:eek: Maybe pens and bowls are for real men....??? :cool:

[Mike Gager]

+1 totally agree. all pens look the same to me as far as the turnings go. plus most of the really fancy pens arent even wood!


I'm a beginning turner - been at it about 6 weeks now. I've done plenty of spindle turning and a couple bowls so far. I haven't tried pens yet, but frankly, am not that interested. I have no preconception about pen turners being second class. As far as my own interest, I may well be wrong, but pen turning looks like it involves as much fiddling with metal pen parts as turning wood. And while it may be challenging to do well, and fine pens are beautiful and useful objects, the turning part doesn't look like it has too many options - all just various bulges on cylinders. Again, I'm a know nothing, so please, show me some pens that I could get excited about turning - not because of the beautiful wood choosen, or the fine metal parts, but because of the interesting way the artist has applied the tools to the wood at the lathe. Bowl blanks and hollow forms are wide open in this respect - infinite curves, thicknesses, rims, covers, etc.

[David Cramer]

Well, to me anything that you put on a lathe and turn is turning. But.....one would have to agree that there are different levels of turning in terms of the difficulty of the wood (material), the technique to get good results, and the amount of time it takes to get to the end product.

With that said, to each his own:). I took a pen turning class and have now made close to 100 acrylic pens and give away all but 2, seriously. My kid's teachers, my nice elderly neighbors, friends, family, the guy from MDOT who pulled over and helped me change my tire just as I was getting out the puney little jack (he had a bigger one) and saved me a lot of time, etc......you get the picture.

Being that I can now turn a pen in less than 5 minutes (just the turning part) using nothing but a roughing gouge, I realize that turning a hollowed vase is a lot more involved than turning a slimline pen. But........again, it's still turning, just a different level.

2nd class turners, no way, not in my book. Those sites that a few have mentioned will put that theory to rest. I turned a rattlesnake pen using nothing but my Alan Lacer Skew and I will tell you this; at almost $35 each with shipping and handling, it's rather nerver racking for this poor soul but they look like glass when you get down. They are cool looking pens to say the least. The material is not glue to a brass tube, but instead it is poured and adheres to the skin, so it's easier to crack, shatter, destroy or blow-up when turning....trust me;).

David

[David Cramer]

I forgot. Dan Forman and Mac Cameron, those are some really, really impressive pens!!!! Well done:) fellas.

David

[Ken Fitzgerald]

In the end to me it boils down to this.

Turning is and should be fun, interesting and challenging at times. Whether you turn pens, bowls, spindles, HFs......enjoy yourself. Post some photos here at the Creek so others can see your accomplishments.

Turn for yourself. Realize that you may get comments, you may not. What interests you may not interest others. Don't be offended. The world would be boring as Hell if we all had the same exact interests or likes and dislikes.

Share your successes and failures with us and we will do the same. We are all trapped in the same Vortex and we will probably swirl by each other over time.

Enjoy it.


BTW John Keeton....there are some things that can happen while turning that will make one say things a whole lot stronger than "Oh my!" and yes at higher RPMs you can have a moment where it takes a while to realize you need to change your underwear. PDAMHIKT:D

[Scott Lux]

One man's opinion here, Pens are (for me) quick and dirty fun. They are a great bang-for-the-buck gift for non-turners. They get a big wow from most folks, and the just feel good in the hand.

So for me it's 10 minutes prep, 10 minutes turning, and 2-30 minutes finishing. I have a hand-made gist for the babysitter, the teacher, the neighbor, pastor, whoever. I have fun and they like it.

2nd class citizen? Not here at the creek.

[John Keeton]

Hey Scott, if you are trying for a stealth gloat on that bass(?) you will need to take a bigger pic of it, and get out of the picture!!:D

Ken, I am trying to avoid those moments! Don't have enough changes of underwear, and the shop is a ways from the house/bathroom!

[Toney Robertson]

A standard bowl does not require alot of work but there is certain tools and techniques to follow but not all that difficult.

"does not require alot of work"

WOW, I think you will get a LOT of people that would disagree with that statement. I put in quite a bit of work on my pieces.

"but not all that difficult"

Tell that to someone that just orbited a bowl passed their head.

Toney

[John Terefenko]

"does not require alot of work"

WOW, I think you will get a LOT of people that would disagree with that statement. I put in quite a bit of work on my pieces.

"but not all that difficult"

Tell that to someone that just orbited a bowl passed their head.

Toney


Toney

I am not degrading bowl turners in any way. There are times when things go wrong and that can happen with turning pens as well. Blow up a $40 blank and see what you get. Yes it may not wizz by your head but none the less still devastaing. Cut a piece of wood on a tablesaw and have a kickback, devastating yes. Does it make it difficult , no. Just like anything you can make it more difficult by adding elements that push the envelope. Just an opinion.

[Ben Brown27]

A standard bowl does not require alot of work but there is certain tools and techniques to follow but not all that difficult.

I didn't see this the first time I read John's post, but I will say I agree with him most of the way. I haven't found bowls or hollow forms any more or less difficult then pens. It's different tools and different techniques, but that doesn't necessarily make it harder.

Is getting hit with a bowl blank more dangerous then getting hit with an exploding pen blank, yes. Does that one fact make bowl turning harder, no. It makes it more dangerous maybe but not harder.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Hey folks,

If this "battle" continues, I will lock this thread and move it from public view.

Everyone certainly has a right to have their opinion.

Lighten up!

Go turn something.

[phil harold]

Hey folks,

If this "battle" continues, I will lock this thread and move it from public view.

Everyone certainly has a right to have their opinion.

Lighten up!

Go turn something.

Maybe edit out some posts and lock the thread
there are some nice pens and thoughts in this thread

[David E Keller]

Been watching this thread for a few days and thought I'd chime in. I started in pen turning about two years ago. I make a few hundred pens a year, and I've sold a bunch and probably given even more away. I've never felt like a second class anything but I'm not sure anyone else could make me feel that way if they tried. It's a hobby, and I think it's fun. More recently, I've tried my hand at a few bowls and boxes... I get a kick out of those as well.

Pens are fun for me because I can make them relatively rapidly and cheaply. I also can use a variety of wood and Burl that is either not available or not financially feasible on a larger scale. They allow me to pass on to friends and family a little piece of myself that they can use on an almost daily basis. Finally, I get a kick out of seeing them all over town... At church, at the grocery store, or wherever. Sometimes I know the person who is holding it and sometimes I don't. I've yet to strike up a conversation with someone because they had one of my bowls in their pocket.

[John Terefenko]

Hey folks,

If this "battle" continues, I will lock this thread and move it from public view.

Everyone certainly has a right to have their opinion.

Lighten up!

Go turn something.


Ken

Maybe I am not seeing what you are seeing in this thread at all. I do not see ill will to anyone and people are just expressing an opinion. There have been some good points and it has taken on a 4 page posting. I don't know. I do know I respect anyone that can work with their hands and create beautiful works of art no matter what form it is. :)

[David Cramer]

John, I agree with you totally. No one is being disrespectful or rude, in my opinion anyways.

David

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

It was the attack and counter-attacks....about pen turning being more difficult than bowl turning....and bowl turning being more difficult than pen turning.

Hogwash!

The TOSs specify this is a site that will be operated in a friendly manner.

I have turned pens, bottlestopper, bowls, goblets, HFs....spindles for a sailboat's wheel, legs for couches, center leg for a candle stand and most recently a 20" table top. I have posted all of them here. So what? I turn what I enjoy and they all have their own difficulties and rewards.

I will repeat myself. What ever you turn, if you don't get as many replies as another type of turning, it's probably because others don't find it as interesting. Accept it. I will bet you don't reply to every turning...to every thread....why expect others to do it? It's not a contest and I hope nobody is counting replies.

As surely as I can show you examples of easy to turn pens and bowls, I can show you examples of ones that would be extremely difficult ones to turn. So what? This isn't a contest.....popularity or otherwise.

I suggest that the probable source of the perceived feeling of being treated like a 2nd class turner might be seen when one looks in the mirror. I know I see one when I shave every morning.

Enough of the "mine-is-better" confrontations. It's boring and somewhat childish IMHO.

Turn because you enjoy it and for no other reason. I don't care what you turn..or what you skill levels are. If you are proud of a turning and want to post a photo...have at it! If you want critiques and are thick-skinned enough to take the heat....ask for a critique and expect to take some hits and maybe learn something. If you are new to turning, feel free to ask for information...help. But above all....turn...enjoy it.....chill out....stop the confrontations.


And now I'm going back to painting our bedroom.:(

[Curt Fuller]

I'm sure this has already been said somewhere in the 4 pages of replies, but just in case it hasn't....
I don't think there are any second class pen turners, or second class turners of anything else for that matter. But any turning, pen or otherwise, will evoke a different response in different people. Sometimes that response will just be simple "no comment". When you make the decision to post your work on the web for the entire world to access, you should expect that the responses will be anything from ecstatic to ho-hum, with the "no comment" falling in there somewhere. That's the same spectrum of responses you get regardless of whether you're posting a pen or any other turning. I know that when I post a bowl and don't get much of a response I just figure that it didn't float many people's boat. I don't take it as people not liking bowls or bowl turners.

[mickey cassiba]

Anyone want to buy a lathe? I didn't realize there were so many divisions among craftsmen(persons). I spent half a lifetime turning steel, and while nothing I made could even remotely be considered "art", I turned thousands of "one-offs" and many more thousands of blanks for stock parts. Each one was a part of me, a product of my training, my ambition, and my desire to excel at my craft. From the lowliest dowel pin, to the 4000 pound pinion shaft blank that nearly took my life(and destroyed the lathe that it flew out of), each one was an expression of a craft that has been evolving for thousands of years.
When I see the things you folks make, I'm awed, and I want to add this to my repertoire of skills. Be it hollows, pens, ornaments, or even lowly tool handles.
I think y'all (well not all y'all) need to come together a little tighter. In a world of mass produced cloned lamps, table legs, and almost every other round thingy, you folks stand out as true artisans.
Just kidding about selling the lathe...still trying to figure out what I want to make with it. And try to figure out how to modify it to optimize it's(and my) capabilities.
Meanwhile, the setup of my midi lathe continues, I've got most of the material gathered up to set up my portability design.
Pictures to come, if I can pry the camera out of her hands.
Got a few more ideas I want to toss around but I gotta make a few more bonkers first.

[John Terefenko]

I think many of us here have turned other things other than pens also and I still think it was a civilized discussion. You are the moderator and you do as you see fit.

Many happy turnings to all and may your worlds go round and round:D

[Ben Brown27]

It was the attack and counter-attacks....about pen turning being more difficult than bowl turning....and bowl turning being more difficult than pen turning.

.....

I suggest that the probable source of the perceived feeling of being treated like a 2nd class turner might be seen when one looks in the mirror. I know I see one when I shave every morning.

To be perfectly honest Ken, before your last comment, I hadn't read anything that seemed like an attack or a counter attack. I've seen a pretty open and frank discussion. There have been many people that contributed to this thread and said they had seen or experienced the same thing. If it's the man in the mirror, then there must be a bunch of us hanging out in front of the mirror.

I said at the top of this thread that I wasn't trying to start a flame war, and I also said this was about attitudes in areas other than just the creek. It's not about how many replies somebody has or hasn't gotten. If I am out for a bunch of replies to a pen I would post to a IAP. It's about a perceived attitude found in some turner groups.

I asked this question here because I thought the creek could handle a good honest discussion. I thought we were doing a good job. I've gotten to see several different views, and it's been pretty informative. I really see no reason you would need to come in and lock the thread and hide it from public view.

None of my comments were meant with any disrespect to any person or turning style. I turn anything I can mount between centers. Bowls, platters, Hollow Forms, Pens, Game Calls, Tops, Bracelets, and anything else I feel like trying. None of those things have been any easier or harder, they've just been different tools and different techniques. Every turning has it's own set of challenges.

For me this is my last comment.

[Gary Herrmann]

Wow. Contentious thread. Why?

I've turned pens, pencil pots, bowls, boxes, hollow forms, mallets, tool handles...

I've probably missed something. This thread made me realize I haven't posted any finished projects in awhile. I've been sneaking my turnings in amidst the furniture projects I'm working on. Eww... Flat work...

I have seen some very fine work posted on all of the items above.

Skill levels vary. Experience varies. Touch varies. Quality of tools varies...

Why does it matter? Enjoy what you create. Enjoy what you see others create and compliment them on it. Or not.

I'm not all that wild about turning pens. I find it somewhat repetitious, and I've only made 50 or 60. What I do like is when I give or sell a pen to someone and watching their reaction. They hold it in their hand and say "you made this?" "How?" And off we go.

I like watching larger forms take shape when I turn them. With a pen, you only have so much room for shape. A person needs to hold it in their hand and write with it. Same thing with a chisel handle - only you're writing in wood.

To me, flat work is more about the result than the process. Unless you enjoy hand tools, which I do, and that's another endless conversation. Turning has always seemed to me more about the journey.

Enjoy what you enjoy, and allow the rest to enjoy what they enjoy. Arguing over it is like when the fleas argue over who's dog it is.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Ben,

You started this thread stating YOUR PERCEPTION. I just figured the person who formed this perception was the person you look at in the mirror daily.

I reread the entire thread and if my math is correct 3 maybe 4 posters agreed with you. More turners including those who turn pens disagreed with your perception.

I will repeat myself again......a lack of replies is not a slam on the skills of the turner but is an indication of a lack of interest in that which was posted. It's a reality. As surely as you don't reply to every thread due to a lack of interest and time, others do too.

You asked for opinions, I simply gave mine. I feel your perception is a minority one.

The threat to close the thread and move it to the Moderators Forum was brought on by the tit-for-tat bickering back and forth that I PERCEIVED. I could be wrong with my perception.

If you feel insulted my apologies. I would never insult publically insult someone.

[Dennis Peacock]

Wow!!! I've been away from turning way too long. I've came back in here to find out that I've been discriminated against....I'm a pen turner...and a bowl turner.....and a platter turner.....and a....gulp....flatworker!!!!! :rolleyes:

To me? Pen turners are as respected as any other turner. I've seen some awesome pens in my days and I've turned and sent many pens to troops as part of the Freedom Pens Project. I have a respect for those that stick with turning pens and to those that stick with woodworking in general.

Do hand slapping here...just respect and pats on the back to all you turners out there. :D

[John Keeton]

...I've been discriminated against...Hey Dennis, you WERE discriminated against...but, it was because you are a Razorback!!:D:D:D

[Ken Fitzgerald]

John,

I pick on him because he wears bib overalls too!

I once drove 600+ miles just to have dinner with Dennis and his family. It was worth every mile and then some!

[John Keeton]

John,

I pick on him because he wears bib overalls too!Well, that explains it!!

[Jeff Luedloff]

I feel there are no any second class pen turners, or second class wood turners period. It don't matter in my opinion how you wood is held on a lathe by mandrel, faceplate, chuck, glue block or between centers, it spins you tool it, your a wood turner. Maybe there is more experienced to newbies, but we all learn ideas and technique from one another. That's what makes local wood turning clubs, and great forums like this one a useful tool. Have fun turning and be safe.

[Curt Fuller]

For me this is my last comment.

Now don't go away mad, Ben!

The title of the post, "Why are pen turners treated as second class turners?", was a very provocative way to ask the question that I felt you were trying to ask, "Why don't SOME people appreciate turned pens?" But either way, the question is loaded. To respond, one would have to either defend why they think pen turners are second class or proclaim why they don't think pen turners are second class. And that's the type of responses I think you got for the most part. But it tended to pit pen turners against those that don't turn pens. That created friction and a little heat and the mod's job is to monitor that and throw a bucket of water on it if it gets too hot.

That said, I took the time to visit your website expecting to see a beautiful display of your pens, which I did. You turn beautiful pens! But I was also amazed at the "other" work you've done. And because I'm more into "other" turnings like many here I suggest those that haven't seen Ben's site take a look. http://www.artturned.com/forms-and-bowls/

[David Cramer]

WOW Ben, you do some pretty incredible turning!!! Well done and a very nice site. Continue with the fantastic turning!

David

[Ben Brown27]

Now don't go away mad, Ben!

Maybe I should clarify. That was my last post pertaining to this thread. Seems like folks are getting agitated, so there's no reason to continue. I'll still be around, Just moving to other topics. Thanks for the kind words on the bowls and such. I'll be posting some new picks pretty soon.

Ben

[michael gallagher]

I have to wonder, when making a pen that takes 6-8 hours, how much time is spent with a tool in your hand cutting the wood.

Ditto what someone else said - about 10 minutes.

Let me give you an example - my Dad is a pretty good segmented turner, and he can have 40, 60, 80 or more hours in a bowl or platter before he starts sanding, applying a finish, etc. Most of that time is the cutting, gluing, fixing "uh-ohs" and things like that. Very little time is spent turning in relationship to your total time.

As a penturner myself, I agree the slimlines ARE boring - I don't particularly care for all of the bulges and strange shapes some people come up with to your basic slimline; the slimline, however, is very popular with folks because it can fit in a checkbook and is about the right size for a woman's hand. I prefer segmenting things out of corian, stone, metal, and wood or turning something casted whether it is wood, leaves, flowers and seeing what your mind can create. Plus, I like to see if I can do it because that kind of stuff is hard - if you're not spot on, it's imperfect and being so small people will notice. Not like a bowl where yo ucan immediately change the shape.

A person can also have only so many fountain pens, etc. - my very young son asked me "what are you going to do with all of these pens?" I give 95% of what I make away as I don't have the time, patience, or inclination to be one of the guys you see with a booth selling pens. People appreciate a good pen, especially when they know it was handcrafted by someone they know. I feel good when, if I see the person I gave a pen to a year or so later, using that pen - especially when they don't know they are about to see me (and thus have an excuse to brown-nose and pull the pen out prior to my arrival).

I can see where you bowl turners who have never turned a pen but certainly have strong opinions would feel otherwise. How about giving it a shot and turn a pen or three first?

[Gary Max]

Here's a little trick to becoming more than just a pen turner.

Freedom Pen Project

[Keith Outten]

Sorry for the shameless plug here but the Freedom Pens Project is just about completely out of pens. We have several pen requests from our Troops in the Middle East we can't supply right now and we could use some help from our turners.

In years past we were able to keep an inventory so we could ship requests for pens almost immediately and provide a large shipment just before Christmas. The war keeps going and yet we have lost a lot of support so the number of pens received is dropping.

Please help us out if you can!
.

[Scott Hackler]

I am relatively new to turning. I turned a little when I was young, but just recently jumped head first into the vortex. (less than a year ago). I really like tuning bowls, HF and all things big. Just out of curiousity I wanted to try pens. I ordered a mandrel and the Euro kits and started to turn away. It is really fun to make theses pens. I think part of the reason is the 1 hour or less completely finished process. Instant gradification. Now on this style of pen, there is little in the artistic expression and as far as skill level.... beginner to intermediate. But still fun. I like the change up and am always looking at different things to go round and round.

Now as far as "second class".... I think pen (only) turners are just different turners. Its all about personal preference. To me I have a lot more control over the artistic aspect and every piece is unique. All of my pens are the same, except for the wood. Still cool, just not something that I would have sitting in a gallery.

I think that some pen turners get into the vortex with a smaller lathe, small investment and are a little intimidated by the "other" projects. I spoke with a local pen turner a while back and told him that I have turned pens but bowls and such was what I really like. He has been turning for 10 years and has never tried a bowl. I explained the satisfaction and he said he might try it.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Scott,

Are you trying to tell us there are turners who can resist the Vortex to a a point of restricting their spending on new tools and accessories? Are you a turner? Are you sure the individual who told you this is a turner? Are familiar with the terms "fairytail" or "rumor" or "urban legend"?:eek::rolleyes:

[Kirk Miller]

I just started turning pens. They are a lot of fun. Even before I started turning pens I didn't think pen turners were second class. My other hobby is rodbuilding. There is the same division there. Fly rod builder, saltwater rod bnuilders, Bamboo rod builders. I build all types of rods except Bamboo. Bamboo builders put themselves in a class of their own. The amount of work that goes into a bamboo rod is amazing. I trully admire their sill and patience. Bottom line is this....As long as there are "People" there will be classes or a better word is groups. I don't think anyone group is better than an other, just different.

Kirk