What's all this I hear about a Table Saw replacing a Jointer?

[Nick Sorenson]

I've talked to several professional cabinet makers who say they do not ever use a jointer. I ask how they get perfect glue lines and they respond.... "my table saw".

Is it as simple as having a nice well tuned tablesaw and a very good blade or am I missing something?

thanks,
Nick

EDIT (my use for the jointer added):

By the way, the reason I ask... I build electric guitars for a living. I'm using these tools to prepare blanks. The blanks are ripped and edge jointed to have two 7" wide x ONLY 19" long boards glued edge to edge to make a 14" x 19" blank in 8/4 stock lumber. Right now I have a cheapo table saw and a nice jointer. The thing I don't like is that I have to make adjustments on the jointer occasionally. It's an old jointer and though a good quality one (old crescent tool company), it's old! So... I'd like to simplify and just have one good table saw. All boards need to have a very clean glue line nice and tight with no light passing through. I can get this with the jointer. I'd like to have a table saw do this if it's truly possible. I recently had a friend (the cab shop guy mentioned) offer to sell me a nice powermatic table saw. This is what got my brain turning.

[John Harden]

No, its not as simple as that. How would you joint the face of a 6 foot long, 8" wide, 8/4 plank of cherry on a table saw?

Don't believe everything you hear.

Regards,

John

[Mike Heidrick]

Should be just mostly edge jointing I would think - not face jointing for the most part.

Are you asking how they get a straight edge or a good clean edge to glue up with?

I would believe they have tuned up saws for the most part and decent blades.

[Phil Thien]

I have been at a lumber yard and witnessed a number of small cabinet shops pay to have lumber surfaced two sides to 3/4" using the helical planer. So if they have a straight ripping jig, they could probably do w/o a jointer for a lot of their work.

I guess it is also possible that their glue lines are U-G-L-Y.

[harry strasil]

try it ye might be surprised.

[Rick Fisher]

If a Cabinet shop had a Euro slider, with a shoe ... they could use it to cut a straight edge on lumber. Removing the need to edge joint..

Still not going to do much for the face...

Of course.. if they did that.. they would have to face joint first...

Which would mean it would be easier to just edge joint.. rather than take the wood over to the slider..

Which means I have little or no idea ..

Sorry..


Phil.. Having the wood milled on both sides with a Helical planer.. would be .. okay.. but not great... If the wood where pretty flat.. but still not a great way to go..

[Ed Hazel]

Is it as simple as having a nice well tuned tablesaw and a very good blade or am I missing something?

thanks,
Nick

Yes it is I use a glue line rip blade from Freud.

Obviously this only for edges.
I get my wood S2S and straight line ripped one edge.

[Randal Stevenson]

The jointer is needed not so much for edge jointing but face jointing prior to planing. (all about speed verse using planer sleds)
If a jointer were only used for edge jointing, there would be TON's of 1" wide models (and cheaper blades).
Years back, I attended a woodworking show, with a product and its originator, the jointability. RBI (bought out and in transition) bought him out and raised the price a year later. Routers, circular saws, handplanes, electric planes and tablesaws have and all can be used for edge jointing. If you have a good source for cheap rough cut wood, a jointer and planer will save you money (but take more time). For cabinet shops, it makes more sense to by S2S (surfaced two sides) and maybe thicknessed woods, and go from there.

[Tony Bilello]

I've talked to several professional cabinet makers who say they do not ever use a jointer. I ask how they get perfect glue lines and they respond.... "my table saw".

Is it as simple as having a nice well tuned tablesaw and a very good blade or am I missing something?

thanks,
Nick


I had a professional cabinet shop/furniture making business in Arkansas and Ms. with no joiner. I recently moved to Texas and opened another woodworking business this past June. I bought a great used 8" joiner that I couldnt turn down for $300 in perfect working order. I still havent used it yet.
When I buy my hardwoods I have the lumber yard surface 2 sides and straightline rip one edge. My boards are always very flat. I have them plane the boards to the point where the grain is just visable to see what I have and all the same thickness. My edge joining is done on the table saw. With a good saw and a good blade, you can get a perfect edge. That becomes most evident in my scraps that I use for turning when I add 'pinstripes'. When you go through the whole thichness of a bowl, any out of whack edging will show up and mine never does.
I also now have a 20" planer but use it only for finish planing. It is not cost effective to plane, flatten and straightline rip my own lumber.
The secret is to start out buying quality hardwoods from a reputable dealer which will usually come at a premium price and have a good table saw and a good blade. Looking for discount lumber and tools just wont work.
I did the same thing even when I was a hobbyist. I learned early on that I could spend my time building furniture or spend it planing, flattening and joining. There is nothing wrong with the latter, it's just a matter of what you want to do.

[Tom Veatch]

I've talked to several professional cabinet makers who say they do not ever use a jointer. I ask how they get perfect glue lines and they respond.... "my table saw".

Is it as simple as having a nice well tuned tablesaw and a very good blade or am I missing something?

thanks,
Nick

For edge jointing, a jointer is convenient, but not necessary. A jig or carrier (or sliding table) on a table saw can give you a straight edge even starting from a waney edge. (I would mention a #6, 7, 8 Jointer plane, but this is the power tool forum, and that comment would belong in the Neander area.)

If you edge joint the board on a jointer, the opposite side should be done on a table saw with the jointed edge against the fence. You can't joint opposite edges of a board on a jointer and reliably keep the edges parallel.

[John Harden]

I had a professional cabinet shop/furniture making business in Arkansas and Ms. with no joiner. I recently moved to Texas and opened another woodworking business this past June. I bought a great used 8" joiner that I couldnt turn down for $300 in perfect working order. I still havent used it yet.
When I buy my hardwoods I have the lumber yard surface 2 sides and straightline rip one edge. My boards are always very flat. I have them plane the boards to the point where the grain is just visable to see what I have and all the same thickness. My edge joining is done on the table saw. With a good saw and a good blade, you can get a perfect edge. That becomes most evident in my scraps that I use for turning when I add 'pinstripes'. When you go through the whole thichness of a bowl, any out of whack edging will show up and mine never does.
I also now have a 20" planer but use it only for finish planing. It is not cost effective to plane, flatten and straightline rip my own lumber.
The secret is to start out buying quality hardwoods from a reputable dealer which will usually come at a premium price and have a good table saw and a good blade. Looking for discount lumber and tools just wont work.
I did the same thing even when I was a hobbyist. I learned early on that I could spend my time building furniture or spend it planing, flattening and joining. There is nothing wrong with the latter, it's just a matter of what you want to do.

Sorry Tony, but if you're buying wood S3S and thinking it is flat and square, you're mistaken. Sure, it might be close enough for the type and quality of work you prefer to do, but most all wood I see in lumber yards is in need of face jointing. These boards don't get used in my projects until they have been properly milled by me.

Lumber yards don't joint faces of boards. They plane them, so whatever cup, twist, or bow that was there before the planer is still there afterwards. Far better to buy the wood rough, not pay extra to have it surfaced or straight lined, then use the proper tools in your shop to make the board truly square.

I have no doubt that many cabinet shops operate exactly as you describe as what they produce is good enough for them and their clients and would never be considered fine woodworking. Most custom furniture makers I know would never dream of such a thing.

To each his own I suppose.

A table saw will easily make a glue line, but it will not face joint boards. Simple as that. Two very different tools.

Regards,

John

[Tony Bilello]

Sorry Tony, but if you're buying wood S3S and thinking it is flat and square, you're mistaken. Sure, it might be close enough for the type and quality of work you prefer to do, but most all wood I see in lumber yards is in need of face jointing. These boards don't get used in my projects until they have been properly milled by me.

Lumber yards don't joint faces of boards. They plane them, so whatever cup, twist, or bow that was there before the planer is still there afterwards. Far better to buy the wood rough, not pay extra to have it surfaced or straight lined, then use the proper tools in your shop to make the board truly square.

I have no doubt that many cabinet shops operate exactly as you describe as what they produce is good enough for them and their clients and would never be considered fine woodworking. Most custom furniture makers I know would never dream of such a thing.

To each his own I suppose.

A table saw will easily make a glue line, but it will not face joint boards. Simple as that. Two very different tools.

Regards,

John

John
Since we dont live in the same area, you have no idea of the quality of wood that I buy. It sounds like most of your lumber comes from an inferior source and you have no idea what quality lumber looks like. I also think that you joiners and planers and not quite as good as the $50,000 stuff that the lumber yards own Then again, maybe they are.
I see that you are a contributor and therefore are allowed to post albums of your work. I am sure it is quality stuff. I posted several albums and noticed that you have a minimal profile with no photos. Please enlighten me.

[J.R. Rutter]

In the context of the original question, I'm with Tony. If you need to make a serious living woodworking then you need to minimize stock prep. Yes, it is possible to produce flat stuff with no glue lines to speak of and never involve a jointer. So can a cabinetmaker say that with a straight face? sure.

When you need to make 200 cabinet doors at a whack, it is much easier to buy gang ripped blanks and run them through a moulder. The straightest pieces coming out are also the most likely to STAY straight. The rest can get averaged into a panel or cut into shorter parts. Believe it or not, the finished doors will be just as flat as if you had hand jointed every dang part. I know because I've done it both ways.

For a home shop, or custom furniture maker, etc., it sure is nice to flatten and square squirrely boards. After all, the most visually interesting grain often comes from the least stable lumber. That's why I still have a jointer, even though we don't use it as much as we used to. It is still the cornerstone machine for getting flat parts out of crooked wood. So if you are limited on your lumber sources, a jointer is pretty important!

[Rick Fisher]

I love milling rough lumber into blanks..

Love face jointing hardwood.. its like a surprise to see what you have..

Probably sounds silly .. but turning a rough 2x8 slab into straight smooth S4S for furniture is one of my favorite parts of woodworking.

[Glen Butler]

edge jointing on a table saw takes the right blade, power, and feed speed. If you feed too fast for the power of your saw your blade will slow. The change in momentum of the blade can cause vibrations and will produce a poor joint.

[John Lucas]

...
Years back, I attended a woodworking show, with a product and its originator, the jointability. RBI (bought out and in transition) bought him out and raised the price a year later

Sadly, RBI did such a poor job of manufacturiong and marketing that the JointAbility, CFW Tulting Router Table and other products were losy and gone for ever. Both those products were pretty good in concept. I still have both length JointAbilitys. They are hidden behind some Festool stuff. Just memories.

[glenn bradley]

It sounds like you are hearing from "cabinet" shops that are doing little in the way of milling their own lumber. I rarely re-dress an edge that I have ripped on the tablesaw. They come out glue ready and this is easily accomplished with a well tuned saw and a good rip blade. This is probably what you are hearing about. I do joint the reference edge before ripping to width but that can be worked around.

Face jointing a 7" wide board on the tablesaw is another matter. I assume the folks you are talking to are using pre-milled material and find that acceptable for their pieces.T here are plenty of shops doing this and they are getting by just fine without a jointer. It just depends on what you want to make. I would be lost without one.

[Darrell Bade]

For over 20 years I never had a jointer and glued lots of boards together using an edge from a tablesaw. The joints look very good in my opinion and not sure a jointer would have made much of an improvement.

I now have an 8" jointer and bought it because I was making drawers for my kitchen cabinets and it is much easier to make dovetail drawers if all the cup is gone from a board. So I really bought the jointer for a facing operation.

Sometimes I can make a glue joint look worse with a jointer than a tablesaw. There is some skill to run the board on a jointer or tablesaw, the machine is not magic.

[Paul Ryan]

I face joint so rarely I would never buy a jointer for that operation. I have a lumber mill less than 5 miles from my home. I buy almost all of my lumber from there. I can get it any way you like it, rough, straight lined, planed, S3S, or S4S. Usually I buy the S3S, the extra few cents per board foot isn't worth my time preparing it. So when I get it home away I go. I use my jointer 90% of the time for edge jointing. Most of my cuts from the table saw come out glue ready but it is so simple to quickly past them over the jointer and no for sure the edge is perfectly flat and square. I bought my jointer years ago when I was using a $100 crapsman saw and you had a heck of a time getting a glue ready joint from a cut on that saw. But I can see how a cabinet shop would not use a jointer, unless they prepare stock you really dont need one.

[Don Bullock]

I've talked to several professional cabinet makers who say they do not ever use a jointer. I ask how they get perfect glue lines and they respond.... "my table saw".
...

I did it for many years using wood that was surfaced on three sides. The blade and saw don't have to be all that great either. My table saw was a contractor style Craftsman I bought in the 1970s and I used the stock blade. Before that I used an older, smaller Craftsman that my father had.

Having said that, after I got my jointer I wondered how I got along without it. Having the right tools makes jobs easier and faster, but in woodworking there are many different ways to do the same job. What might be my tool of choice may not be yours.

[lowell holmes]

Actually, Houston Hardwoods do a pretty credilble job of face jointing.From rough to s2s1e for 55 cents a board foot is a bargain. They rip one edge straight, then face joint to flatten the board, then thickness plane and edge joint.

Sometimes there is a bow that requires attention.

[Nick Sorenson]

I've talked to several professional cabinet makers who say they do not ever use a jointer. I ask how they get perfect glue lines and they respond.... "my table saw".

Is it as simple as having a nice well tuned tablesaw and a very good blade or am I missing something?

thanks,
Nick

EDIT (my use for the jointer added):

By the way, the reason I ask... I build electric guitars for a living. I'm using these tools to prepare blanks. The blanks are ripped and edge jointed to have two 7" wide x ONLY 19" long boards glued edge to edge to make a 14" x 19" blank in 8/4 stock lumber. Right now I have a cheapo table saw and a nice jointer. The thing I don't like is that I have to make adjustments on the jointer occasionally. It's an old jointer and though a good quality one (old crescent tool company), it's old! So... I'd like to simplify and just have one good table saw. All boards need to have a very clean glue line nice and tight with no light passing through. I can get this with the jointer. I'd like to have a table saw do this if it's truly possible. I recently had a friend (the cab shop guy mentioned) offer to sell me a nice powermatic table saw. This is what got my brain turning.

Original post updated (as quoted). My use of/purpose for the wood added.

[John Harden]

John
Since we dont live in the same area, you have no idea of the quality of wood that I buy. It sounds like most of your lumber comes from an inferior source and you have no idea what quality lumber looks like. I also think that you joiners and planers and not quite as good as the $50,000 stuff that the lumber yards own Then again, maybe they are.
I see that you are a contributor and therefore are allowed to post albums of your work. I am sure it is quality stuff. I posted several albums and noticed that you have a minimal profile with no photos. Please enlighten me.

Well then, I guess that settles it!!!!! Lumber yards in California carry inferior woods and you have access to stock that NEVER needs to be jointed. :eek:

With all due respect, your argument is so ridiculous that there is really nothing more I could say at this point.

Carry on!!!!!!

[lowell holmes]

:)And where do you buy your wood? I'm not aware that Kemah Hardware carries hardwoods.

[Tony Bilello]

:)And where do you buy your wood? I'm not aware that Kemah Hardware carries hardwoods.
Actually, Houston Hardwoods do a pretty credilble job of face jointing.From rough to s2s1e for 55 cents a board foot is a bargain. They rip one edge straight, then face joint to flatten the board, then thickness plane and edge joint.


Kemah Hardware dont ??????????????

Seriously though, I get most of my wood from Houston Hardwoods and also Brazos. Sometimes from Acadian Hardwoods and Cypress in Beaumont. When I have them S2S and straightline rip to just be able to see what I have it usually is about 7/8" thick. After the boards are glued up I run the top through a 20" planer and it comes out flat. For larger tops, I bring them to a friends shop and he will flatten them for me.
So, where are you located that you are familiar with Kemah?

As for John Harden, I didn't say lumber yards in Ca. are inferior, I infered that you only shop in the inferior ones. My shop address is posted and anyone is welcome to come by and inspect my work. And you are located where? LOL

[David Prince]

I have both and cannot imagine doing without either. They both have a place in the shop. Though, I do a lot of edges with the jointer just to clean up the rough edges from the rip blade, it is also pretty helpful if you have a board from a face-frame that is a bit thicker and needs to be face-jointed to match up. Prior to getting a jointer, I used a belt sander to clean up an edge. That gets to be too much. Try re-sawing a board and using a jointer to clean up the face to make a custom piece if needed. That helps the jointer earn its keep.

[Sean Hughto]

I never use my power jointer. For edge jointing, my Powermatic 64A contractor saw with a Forrest WoodWorker 2 30 tooth ripping blade makes a glue ready edge for most applications in stock of any thickness that the blade will accomodate. If I want to go the extra mile, I might run a smoother over the edges being careful not to alter the geometry, but merely to get rid of any roughness/blade scoring. In short, for gluing up edges of guitar blanks, you can easily make great edge joints without a jointer. You just need a decently set up fence, flat table, and good blade.

I've never had occassion to face joint 8" wide stock for glue up, and can't really imagine a scenario where I ever would. But as far as getting faces flat and true, I use my handplanes and thickness planer. The handplanes can easily make one face flat for referencing on the planer (sometimes I just do it all with the planes). Some guys use sleds. I've not needed to do that, but it would save the hand planing step.

[Rod Sheridan]

I've talked to several professional cabinet makers who say they do not ever use a jointer. I ask how they get perfect glue lines and they respond.... "my table saw".

Is it as simple as having a nice well tuned tablesaw and a very good blade or am I missing something?

thanks,
Nick

EDIT (my use for the jointer added):

By the way, the reason I ask... I build electric guitars for a living. I'm using these tools to prepare blanks. The blanks are ripped and edge jointed to have two 7" wide x ONLY 19" long boards glued edge to edge to make a 14" x 19" blank in 8/4 stock lumber. Right now I have a cheapo table saw and a nice jointer. The thing I don't like is that I have to make adjustments on the jointer occasionally. It's an old jointer and though a good quality one (old crescent tool company), it's old! So... I'd like to simplify and just have one good table saw. All boards need to have a very clean glue line nice and tight with no light passing through. I can get this with the jointer. I'd like to have a table saw do this if it's truly possible. I recently had a friend (the cab shop guy mentioned) offer to sell me a nice powermatic table saw. This is what got my brain turning.

Nick, I was going to reply "sure, you can stack wood on either machine".

However, a jointer produces a reference edge. A table saw requires a reference edge, unless it is a sliding saw.

So, if you want to edge glue boards, and you have a slider, you don't need a jointer for edge preparation at all.

If you have an accurate table saw, you can produce glue joint edges as long as one edge of the board has a reference face.

A glue joint doesn't require perfect finish, it simply has to be square and straight.
Regards, Rod.

[Sean Hughto]

For what it's worth, establishing a reference edge is very simple even on a rough cut waney board using a simple plywood, mdf, etc. sled. A couple of screws placed in the area to be wasted on the second cut to attach the board to the sled and let the sled's edge ride the fence. On board that have a realtively straight edge already, a No 7 jointer plane will make quick work of establishing a reference edge.

[lowell holmes]

I'm in Dickinson. I buy from Houston Hardwoods, Clarke Hardwood Lumber Co, and sometimes Mason's Mill.

I'm not pro, just an old duffer.

Kemah Hardware used to stock a lot of fir for the shrimpers. They still have a lot of stainless fasteners and marine related stuff. I'm sure you already knew this.

[Tony Bilello]

I'm in Dickinson. I buy from Houston Hardwoods, Clarke Hardwood Lumber Co, and sometimes Mason's Mill.
Kemah Hardware used to stock a lot of fir for the shrimpers. They still have a lot of stainless fasteners and marine related stuff. I'm sure you already knew this..

I have not yet been to Mason's Mill or Clarke's yet but I did hear good things about them.
My shop is in Dickinson on 1266 about 1/2 mile south of 646. I moved in June 1st and I havent had time to put up a sign yet, been too busy. Not sure if I really need one. Im in that commericial/industrial complex that has the tan metal buildings with the green trim. . Right now I am out of town and will be back in a week or so. I will send private message when I get back home so you can drop by and we can chat.

[John Harden]

As for John Harden, I didn't say lumber yards in Ca. are inferior, I infered that you only shop in the inferior ones. My shop address is posted and anyone is welcome to come by and inspect my work. And you are located where? LOL

So, now you're making fun of Fontucky, California, birthplace of the Hell's Angels?!?!? Actually, we make fun of it too, so that's cool. :D

I could name lumber yards, but it really doesn't matter as it has nothing to do with the conversation. You've likely never heard of them just as I've never heard of yours.

For some projects, especially small ones, S2S from my local lumber yards is flat and straight enough to use. Quite often though, it is not, particularly on its face. This is where a jointer comes in to play and why I prefer to buy rough stock, particularly when working with highly figured woods.

You stated that you NEVER use your jointer to flatten the face of boards as EVERYTHING you get from your lumber yards is dead flat and square. Perhaps that's true. If so, I stand in awe of your lumber suppliers and their magic wood.

As for the rest of us, we'll continue to rely on our jointers for proper stock preperation. I see no reason to get rid of mine.

At this point, I suggest we just agree to disagree.

Regards,

John

[Johnnyy Johnson]

Just my 2 cents on edge jointing with a TS. I started a thread on a clamp and tool guide the other day. Since then I have read alot and yesterday bought a EEmerson 50' alum clamp guide. It has 3 levels of strength settings when you clamp it on the board. I had to take a saw and cut off the ears on the sliding clamp part so it would fit up against the fence. The first setting is strong enough to hold the board (150" pds). It works great for taking a crooked board and clamping it to the edge and getting that first straight cut on the TS. Emmerson makes them up to 12' long.

[Johnnyy Johnson]

Can someone point me in the right direction for a place to buy after market pulleys. I have a Delta Contractor TS and just put on one of those belts that snap together. I would like to swap out to balanced pulleys for making those edge joint cuts.

[Alex Shanku]

I could frame a house using a brick instead of a hammer...doesnt mean its faster or easier. Sometimes the right tool is just simply the right tool, even though it can get done 10 other ways.

[Sean Hughto]

Why is the tool you happen to prefer the "right" one? Cabinetmakers have used handplanes to do the job for centuries.

I've made hundreds and hundreds of edge joints from the table saw. An electric jointer could not have done any better or faster.

[Nick Sorenson]

So it sounds like it's possible to rip 8/4 hardwoods straight and clean enough to glue with a tight glue up?

[Rod Sheridan]

So it sounds like it's possible to rip 8/4 hardwoods straight and clean enough to glue with a tight glue up?

Sure, if you have a good reference edge.............Rod.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I think the importance of a jointer will depend on your lumber sources, and how good your table saw is. I've only got a jobsite table saw and I don't really cut anything thicker than 1" and many times my edges arn't exactly glue-up ready. :D

Thus, the 6" jointer has been good to me.

I go to Austin hardwoods which is the best choice I've got and it's barely within 25 miles. Even there, the wood I get has movement by the time I get back to my garage where it's more humid since i'm near the coast.

Because it's a hassle to drive so far to get wood, I get some wood from the local big box stores. In this case it's nice to have a jointer handy. Sometimes I go directly from jointer to table saw with a board.

[Sean Hughto]

Si, Yes, Da, Uh-huh, Absolutely, Affirmative, M-hmmm, Yup. Is that any clearer?

You've had several cabinet maker friends tell you yes. You've had several here say yes. What exactly are you still doubting?

Here is a picture of the top of a cabinet I completed a few mnonths back. The top is two pieces of 8/4 curly cherry (together about 22" x 36").
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/3061978609_a681a699fc_b.jpg

I did not use a jointer to glue them. Rather, I used my table saw to prepare the joint:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3186/2932258486_3ef7935bbf_b.jpg

Hope this helps.

[John Harden]

So it sounds like it's possible to rip 8/4 hardwoods straight and clean enough to glue with a tight glue up?

Absolutely, if you're talking about edge gluing. The key to ripping a board that is straight and true is that the reference edge against the table saw fence must also be straight and true. There are a number of ways to accomplish this.

1. Board came from the lumber yard with a straight, true edge.
2. Joint one edge on a jointer
3. Joint one edge with a jointer plane
4. Attach a straight reference edge to the board, which you then reference against the fence. This could be another board tacked on, a long clamp, or something similar.

Personally, from a quality stand point for gluing, I prefer the machined edge you get from a table saw or hand plane to what comes off a jointer. Sure, the jointer will make it true, but they all leave a slightly scalloped surface.

In my opinion, a good rip blade in a table saw will leave a surface finish ready for glue. The only time I finish it with a hand plane is when I'm lazy and don't change over from a combo blade to a ripping blade, which truth be told, is most of the time. :rolleyes:

Regards,

John

[Nick Sorenson]

I can't argue with that. Thanks for the pictures. Great looking work! I'll have to find a nicer table saw soon!


Si, Yes, Da, Uh-huh, Absolutely, Affirmative, M-hmmm, Yup. Is that any clearer?

You've had several cabinet maker friends tell you yes. You've had several here say yes. What exactly are you still doubting?

Here is a picture of the top of a cabinet I completed a few mnonths back. The top is two pieces of 8/4 curly cherry (together about 22" x 36").
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3152/3061978609_a681a699fc_b.jpg

I did not use a jointer to glue them. Rather, I used my table saw to prepare the joint:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3186/2932258486_3ef7935bbf_b.jpg

Hope this helps.

[scott spencer]

It doesn't even take a special blade to be able to "edge" joint with a TS...most decent 24T, 30T, 40T, or 50T blades will leave a glue ready edge, but if the board isn't truly flat, the blade can't leave a reference edge that's 90° to the face. "Good nuff" works for lots of applications, but it's not necessarily flat, and most table saws just can't do much about flattening a face if it's not flat or flattened first. A jointer is the most efficient tool for flattening a face and an adjacent reference edge. With help from a planer sled, a planer can flatten a face fairly well.

[Alex Shanku]

Why is the tool you happen to prefer the "right" one? Cabinetmakers have used handplanes to do the job for centuries.

Yes, in some cases handplanes are the right tool(and since we are defining things, right=more efficient/easier to achieve a desired result) compared to a jointer.



I've made hundreds and hundreds of edge joints from the table saw. An electric jointer could not have done any better or faster.

Of course it is, since you dont have a jointed edge to begin with to ride your rip fence. Or are you going to try and tell me that you could fasten something 8' long to a sled of some kind and pass it safely through your table saw faster than I could run it across the jointer?

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I've talked to several professional cabinet makers who say they do not ever use a jointer. I ask how they get perfect glue lines and they respond.... "my table saw".


Yah, for years I didn't have a jointer. I made guitars with no jointer.
I just set the blade carefully and took my passes carefully and lived with the bits of saw blade scrapings.

Many will insist that it makes for a better glue joint cause there's more rough surface. I dunno if that's true in actuality but, there is a sort of logic to it in a sick twisted deeply perverse way that I sort of like.

But now that I have a nice 12" Austrian jointer well any one O' yous who don't joint first well, you better get wid the program.

[Dan Barr]

I'm not cabinet maker, but...

i used to rip straight lines (instead of edge jointing)on most of my stock with the tablesaw. then i would run my smoother over it a few passes to remove any undulations from the tableswa blade. (yes, they will be there if yo look closely)

Even when i edge joint on the jointer, i would still run my smoother over the edge a few times to remove the tiny scalloping left behind by the jointer.

so, my answer is that you can do wither or both and finish with a smoother. :D

my two cents.

dan

[Sean Hughto]

I dunno how long you've been at this, Alex, but for what it may be worth, in my expereince, there are few only, best, or right ways in woodworking. There are many ways to each end. Different things are important to different woodworkers; for example, a pro may have a need for speed, a hobbiest may love certain processes more than others, some may have aversions to dust, or to machines that can mutilate you in a split second. The list goes on and on. In any event, the joint is what matters in this context. Both a table saw and a jointer will leave faint marks on the edge of the boards from the rotating blade. In most species, the clamping pressure and compression of the wood makes these a non-issue. Sometimes, a swipe of a smooth plane might be necessary with either power tool to get an invisible glue line result. Neither tool has a significant advantage as far as the surface they leave or in making a flat edge square to the face of the board. The feed rate for both is similar, but with a jointer, you might have to make multiple passes. Also, unlike a jointer, with a table saw, the cut of the second side is perfectly parallel to the first.

As far as your comment about needing a jointed edge to begin with, this is an overstatement. Even S2S boards tend to have at least one edge that is more than straight enough to reference the fence for making the first cut. If the board has a waney edge, I'm guessing you're not shoving is over the jointer from the get go to eliminate all that wane, are you? Seems like that would take a lot of passes. A first cut with bandsaw or table saw cut would be the more common first step, right?

Any sled that might be necessary (never needed one for anything other than waney stock, personally) is just a piece of plywood or mdf, it ain't no jig or anything fancy. And yes, it would be completely safe to run through the table saw.

Anyway, each to their own.

[Josiah Bartlett]

For edge jointing where a table saw blade leaves too rough a surface, a shaper with a straight cutter or a router table with a good spiral bit leaves a very nice surface. Most shapers have a split fence that makes it easy- it works just like a jointer would if you had mounted it with the base on the wall and stood on the floor to use it.

Even my small shaper can face joint a 2" edge with no problem at all. It also allows you to face joint a piece that isn't intended to be parallel on the opposite edge, like a round table drop leaf or a turning blank.

[Chip Lindley]

Gormet cooking is to jointing rough lumber, as S3S is to....McDonalds?!?! And, it seems woodworking is a lot like the Real Estate business. Location Location Location. I am blessed to be in the Ozarks where rough-sawn hardwood is very common and plentiful. But, those who do cabinetry in, say, the arid Southwest, have to import 100% of their stock unless they used kiln-dried cactus, or petite mesquite!

One of my greatest enjoyments is running rough-sawn weathered boards across the jointer to reveal their unique grain! Since my self-indulgent woodworking is on a very small scale compared to one who is competing commercially and must make every hour count to turn a profit, I am blessed to be able to take my time and use jointer and planer as they were intended. I also operate "On The Cheap" by buying rough stuff for a song at auctions or recycling barn wood or shipping dunnage. Were I situated in downtown Chicago, no doubt my priorities and operations would change drastically!

Ripping stock straight for gluing can and is done with the right machinery AND the right stock. Preparing stock can either be part of the cost of materials borne by the customer, OR it can be part of the pleasure of woodworking. I guess it all depends--if you are feeding a family, OR feeding a need to work with wood!

One question for all the users of S3S lumber...What do you do with all the *culls*? Feed the boiler? Or, spend valuable time figuring out where they will fit into a project? OR bundle them up and sell them to *just woodworkers*?

My limited experience with pre-surfaced stock taught me that there was much left to do, to achieve *flat/straight*! Still there was a *time* factor added to increased cost. I am happy others have experienced *better*!

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I did it for years.
This was before the days of nice carbide blades.
I sharpened my own blades with a file and set the teeth with the but of a hammer.
And it worked. I have some of the 2" and 1.5" thick maple butcher block furniture I made that way. I have the first 12 string guitar that I made and the only joints that have failed were the ones that got soaked in a flood.

Fact is, I didn't know any better at the time. And it worked just fine.

[robert micley]

i am a hobbyist. i have good friends who are contractors. it seems that many of the folks on this woodworking board are into perfect tuning and alignment of all their tools. the contractors i know are just not into this. they do not check their table saw fences for dead parallel with dial gauges. they just seem to make things. now they may not make furniture for shows- but they are making quality cabinets and custom built rails, staircases and built ins. i think from my own experience and watching them that you do not need equipment dead on perfect. you do not need your table saw top dead flat- you do not need your table saw fence dead parallel or within.003. you do not need machinists squares, straight edges, or angle gauges to check your cuts. what you need is experience and intelligence. getting to the topic of the jointer. i love it and need it for certain applications. for narrow stock - i like to get one reference edge nice and flat. this is so easy on the jointer. whether for drawers or face frames, i run the boards on edge to get the reference edge- cut to width on the table saw. no more jointing on these pieces. even if i have to glue some pieces together on edge for the door panels or sides the table saw cut seems good enough. i do use the jointer a lot for face jointing- especially for drawer sides, door rail and stile and picture frames or poster frames. you really need flat pieces for these because you will not have flat doors or frames. wide and long pieces of wood i do not use my jointer because it is too hard for me- i get a nice edge using my festool guide saw. i am really not good at jointing a flat face or edge face of a long wide piece of wood---- these pieces i bring to my friend. once i brought my square with me to check out cabinets in cabinet stores. they are far from perfect- face frames, drawers, - everything is not square. my cabinets for my house and workshop are pretty good but not perfect as measured with a square. i cannot get exact same cuts in 4 pieces of plywood that are wide because they would have to be dead dead flat- place 2 pieces on top of each other and they can be off if there is the slightest bow or cup. that being said- a jointer is my favorite tool because it is like opening a present to see what your rough lumber looks like . other times it is just a pain when you are doing many pieces for drawers or frames and it takes hours and you wish the wood was just flat and edged already.

[Peter Quinn]

Wow, its fun to watch the fist fights break out on this one. I feel like I'm at a family wedding!:D So maybe the mods should add this topic to the short list of topics that cannot be touched? No politics, no religion, and never discuss edge joining......:D

Seriously, I hesitate to call myself a pro, but I have been working wood for a living for several years now, and most of the guys at work have more than two decades each under their belts. We make fine custom cabinets in the $600/LF and up range and millwork of all sorts. I'd guess if you are banging out 3/4" doors and frames with overlays using euro hinges, you can skip the jointer and run with the S4S, no problems. But if you are telling me you can make 1 1/8" thick full inset doors with tight reveals hanging on brass butt hinges from lumber yard milled stock, I'm calling BS. When your inset is full and your stops are integral hard wood not rubber baby buggie bumpers, and your panels are typically two board matched glue ups on even the widest of doors, your doors better not have any twist AT ALL, and your jointer better have sharp knives. So that is where I stand on that if an opinion poll breaks out. Some work doesn't need a jointer, some most certainly does, you be the judge of your own work.

We had a guy in the shop for a little while that had Umpty nine years professional cabinet making experience and had his own shop for decades. He never used a jointer before, but nobody knew that. His portfolio looked pretty good. His first job was making 15 large M&T brackets from 12/4 mahogany (SA), basically a 3X4X5 triangle, to ride under a soffit of a grand entry way. And how do you suppose Mr. I DONT NEED A JOINTER made out when he started trying to mill the angled mortises and tennons for the job? Turns out it was also his last assignment....what a mess he left.

As for glue line ripping, last month I made what seemed like several miles of 5/4 Ash panels, 16"X16', mostly two board glue ups, using stock straight off the straight line saw. Not a single glue failure and every glue line was either invisible or unable to be seen by the naked eye of several trained professionals. We glued them up then planed them as they were for wall panels which don't have to be flat. First time I had done anything that got glued without getting joined first, but 'm convinced. As long as you have a tight fitting dry fit I find the surface off the saw works fine. I can't imagine an electric guitar body needs to be perfectly flat so I'd guess it would work fine without a jointer? Unless you have jigs for the neck joint or edging that rely on some serious flatness?

I'd probably be inclined to work out the kinks in your system with some cheap poplar or basswood before committing good stock to the process, but it seems easy enough to make a straight line jig for one edge given the short length of your blanks. I guess you'll need a decent saw to joint 8/4 hardwoods like maple or ash given the blade will be almost full up with a sled under the stock for that first pass. One thing we did do for glue line ripping was to clean up the second edge, then bump the fence in a light 1/16" and take one more "kiss" so there was no tension on the waste side of the blade to muck things up, and this seemed to yield a better surface quality.

[Sean Hughto]

Peter, for the hobbiest at least, there is a path between working straight from S4S lumber yard stuff and using a jointer. On that path are handplanes, lunchbox planers, table saws, etc., which allow one to work to any tolerance one may choose even without an power jointer. I'm not saying my work is particularly fine, but even a hack like myself can make flat inset doors with brass butt hinges and respectable reveals without a jointer being used, it prolly does at least constitute proof of the concept. Here's some recent doors and drawers before and after they were hung.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3332/3475337558_334e4d4b0d.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2615/3894571163_58527a410f.jpg

[Peter Quinn]

[QUOTE=Sean Hughto;1246728]Peter, for the hobbiest at least, there is a path between working straight from S4S lumber yard stuff and using a jointer. On that path are handplanes, lunchbox planers, table saws, etc., which allow one to work to any tolerance one may choose even without an power jointer. I'm not saying my work is particularly fine, but even a hack like myself can make flat inset doors with brass butt hinges and respectable reveals without a jointer being used, it prolly does at least constitute proof of the concept. Here's some recent doors and drawers before and after they were hung.

Sean, your doors are beautiful. As soon as you mention hand planes, and lunch box planers, I'm hearing suggestions that you flatten your stock as needed. I didn't mean to suggest that a large jointer is the only way to make things flat, just the quickest way I can think of. Are you suggesting that you make doors with stock that has not been in some way flattened beyond the surfacing done by the mill? I have not had good success with that. I can usually pick some material that would be suitable as is after surfacing, but not usually enough to do a large scale job in any given pile.

I have made a few doors that were not so flat and got them hung and fitted so they worked, but I find it much easier to hang a door that is flat, and I find it much easier to make a flat door with flat stock. How the stock gets flat is a much varied path. I can say there is little room for extensive hand work in the shop where I work in terms of time alloted, but I am working towards using them increasingly in my home shop.

I will say that I have hung some fairly twisted stuff using cup hinges and set them so they looked fine. Much more forgiving IME.

[robert micley]

the cabinet looks great but the sliding dovetail on one side only looks out of place and too busy. but looks well done.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

the cabinet looks great but the sliding dovetail on one side only looks out of place and too busy.

I thought it was a nice subtle accent that comes out after the first look.

[Tony Bilello]

I think some of you are taking the literal word and then stopping there as if it is the end of the story. Most of us that buy S3S are buying it slightly over thicknessed. Then when panels and tops are glued up, they are taken down to final thickness. This will remove any slight misalignment during clamping, any slightly dinged edges that are not 100% crisp and otherwise cleaned up to perfection. This usually involves a hand plane as well as a power planer and a wide belt sander. The key is to still start with flat boards whether you do it yourself or have the lumber yard do it. You will not get this flatnes or wood stability from Menards, Home Depot, Lowes or most lumber yards in general and therefore have no choice but to do it yourself. If you are fortunate enough to be in reasonable driving distance (an hour or two) or along a delivery route of a high quality specialty lumber company life gets easier. Most of their boards are in very good condition even in the rough. These are not the kind of places that the average cabinet shop or builder frequents. These are not the kinds of places that you count savings in pennies. However, once you get to know the managers, you can get great deals. These are usually on their culls that they cut into smaller pieces, where you can make an offer on a pallet load. Even their culls are far superior to what most lumber yards carry.
Anyway, the point being that you must start your project with flat stock whether you do it or the yard does it. Once your stock is flat, a joiner is not needed to give a good edgeglued joint. A table saw can do that.
BTW , beautiful piece Sean. Nice work and the dovetailed piece breaks any monotony, not that there was any on this particular piece.

What happened to this forum where people feel free to negatively critique anothers work especially when not asked to and when the criticism has nothing to do with a joiner as the original post was asking? I usually try to be careful with my words and phrases so as not to insult anothers ability. Sometimes though when I get pissed, I lose all of my sensitivity and it usually is finely targeted. I will try to curb myself further as I wish others would also. having said that, lets move on to woodworking as gentleman.

[Sean Hughto]

Yes, Peter, I flatten and thickness the stock, I just don't like to use a jointer to do it. My only point was that a jointer is not absolutely essential. I kind of look at it like a huge cabinet shop drum sander, it may be fast and efficient, but there are other ways to get there that work too, and in the end, no one using the door is likely to appreciate which tool produced the flat surface.

[Sean Hughto]

Robert, FWIW, there is a sliding dovetail on each corner of the dividers surrounding the pinwheel drawer, but the grain chotoycance (or whatever the right word is) just makes that one stand out in this particular picture. That said, I took some design risks, and am still trying to decide what worked and what didn't. Live and learn. Thanks for the feedback.

[harry strasil]

Can someone point me in the right direction for a place to buy after market pulleys. I have a Delta Contractor TS and just put on one of those belts that snap together. I would like to swap out to balanced pulleys for making those edge joint cuts.

Johnnyy, its not the pulleys that cause the trouble, they are too small to have any effect on balance, what is the problem is a standard solid V belt gets a memory from setting around a pulley, the sectional belts will slip under a good stress, to get rid of vibration go to an auto supply or V belt place and get the notched back V belt, it will not develop a memory will perfome well even under great load, and is a lot cheaper than those sectional things.

3rd picture from the top
http://www.mainsupplies.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=28

[John Coloccia]

There's such a thing as good enough. Good enough for shop cabinets, is different than good enough for kitchen cabinets, is different than good enough to museum pieces, is different than good enough for instrument building.

For instrument building, my jointer's performance is often just not good enough, whereas it's probably good enough for museum pieces and kitchen cabinets. My tablesaw probably makes cuts that are good enough for kitchen cabinets but not museum pieces.

There's just no one right answer to this because it depends on what you're doing.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Can someone point me in the right direction for a place to buy after market pulleys.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=93997&highlight=Baldor


Harry's correct. It's bloody hard to get enough tension on an auto grade pulley to eliminate the set in the rubber.

Most the high end companies use flat belts. They are more efficient at power transmission. V belts chew up about 10% of the power a motor produces for each pulley coupling. Link belts demand much less because they are so flexible.

[Tony Bilello]

I called Houston Hardwoods (713-686-6176) today and asked how they do there surfacing when someone requests S2S. I was told that their planer has 2 motors. One is for joining and the other is for planing. So we can call it a joiner/planer. All the wood goes through the joiner first then through the planer. If that machine is busy, the wood is run through a molder which surfaces the top and bottom at the same time. In either case, the wood comes out very flat.
Their rough lumber is pretty flat to start with.
So, my point is that I dont need to own a joiner if I buy my lumber from them S2S and straightline ripped which some call S3S.

[Kenneth Whiting]

I can't afford a nice jointer right now so I am looking into using mdf and sheets of laminate to make a few different thickness fences for my drill press, and a 3/4 inch straight router bit. Please don't yell too loud, the kids are trying to sleep.

[Peter Quinn]

I can't afford a nice jointer right now so I am looking into using mdf and sheets of laminate to make a few different thickness fences for my drill press, and a 3/4 inch straight router bit. Please don't yell too loud, the kids are trying to sleep.

I know a local luthier that makes acoustic guitars using a drill press as a thickness planer for the top and bottom skins. They are beautiful I'm told, haven't seen one. I asked him why he didn't use a drum sander or wide belt, and he said "Man, I'd love to have one of those, but no space and no budget presently."

I have a great little drum sander, I make paint grade cabinet doors with it, he makes beautiful guitars with a drill press. Goes to show the tools don't do the work, nor do they determine its quality. I'd love to see a pic of the drill press jointer. Can a drill press really do that?

[Kenneth Whiting]

I'll be putting it together this weekend, I'll take pics if it works, if not then just forget I brought it up :D

[george wilson]

He's probably using the Wagner safety Planer(is that the right name?). It is an aluminum disc about 3 or 4" in dia. It has 3 little blades,and leaves a swirl pattern cut. I have one,but never seem to use it. If he's using one of these,he has to make several passes to do 1/2 of an 8" wide guitar top (total width=16"). Some luthiers use them. I think I got mine in the 60's,but ended up hand planing my wood as it was smallish anyway.

[John Coloccia]

He's probably using the Wagner safety Planer(is that the right name?). It is an aluminum disc about 3 or 4" in dia. It has 3 little blades,and leaves a swirl pattern cut. I have one,but never seem to use it. If he's using one of these,he has to make several passes to do 1/2 of an 8" wide guitar top (total width=16"). Some luthiers use them. I think I got mine in the 60's,but ended up hand planing my wood as it was smallish anyway.

I use one. It's one of the most useful tools in my shop. I use it to thickness sides and tops also. The planer tears them up, and the sander just takes too long. The Wagner take care of it with no fuss. There are a zillion other uses for it as well. If I had the room, I would have one drill press dedicated to nothing but the Saf-T Planer.

[Larry Edgerton]

I don't need a washing machine to wash cloths, but I have one........

[Nick Sorenson]

Well I'll be trying it out before the end of the week to see if the joint is "good enough".

We'll see!

A little background... The boards to be jointed are around 20" long (not very long) and 4-8" wide depending on how many pieces are in the blank.

[bob frost]

John
Since we dont live in the same area, you have no idea of the quality of wood that I buy. It sounds like most of your lumber comes from an inferior source and you have no idea what quality lumber looks like. I also think that you joiners and planers and not quite as good as the $50,000 stuff that the lumber yards own Then again, maybe they are.
I see that you are a contributor and therefore are allowed to post albums of your work. I am sure it is quality stuff. I posted several albums and noticed that you have a minimal profile with no photos. Please enlighten me.
This is all true regarding using the lumber supply store to surface the two sides but if you are storing the lumber for any length of time would you not be back to where you started if the stock warped or bowed again?