Plane Confused

[Dennis Collins]

I must say that I am confused as to why there is such a wide range of planes and prices of such, when a jointer, or router table and sandpaper can accomplish about the same task, and maybe better.

For example, if I needed to put a chamfer, dadoes or rabbet in a piece of wood. I could use a block or rabbet plane or my router and router table. A $5 woodcraft bit will do a fine job in my router. But i guess for those who prefer hand tools I could use my $40 Stanley block plane and can almost accomplish the same results with a chamfer. All be it not as smooth, or even as the router. Also,why is there such wide price range for a tool that each will do the same thing with similar results. i.e. Stanley block plane $39, LN or LV block plane $145. Granted I may need to tune the Stanley, but once tuned always tuned. (Or at least close) Why should I want to spend over $100 more for a plane that will do the same thing as my less expensive Stanley?

Now I am not a hand tool pioneer and actually prefer to use my router table for a consistent and smooth result. With hand tools, I find the results not as satisfactory.

Also, why would I want to use a smoothing hand plane in place of my box planer and some 220 grit sand paper on a orbital sander?

Am I missing something or is it that I like cannot appreciate the experience of building something with "my own hands" and just an electric plug junkie?

Seriously, I have long considered buying a LN or LV block or shoulder plane, but have a hard time justifying the price when a $5 router bit or my $40 Stanley accomplishes the same thing.

[Sean Hughto]

I'd say you're missing something.

Where are you in Virginia?

[Dan Sink]

The Neander way is a choice, a preference, for many on here. Its not the "right way." There is no right way, its all how you like to work. But I would guess that for most on here there are two common themes - (1) the journey is as important as, or maybe even more important than the destination, and (2) that perfect, rounded, smooth look you crave, is stale and sterile to those who prefer the beauty in the subtle details and imperfections of a hand made piece.

[David Gendron]

I would say that you are missing something... the least is a surface finished with a well tuned smoothing plane, will be way nicer and smooth than the same surface finished with sand paper. Also I can produce a chanfer way quicker and ready for finish with my block plane than with a router and bit and that with out the noise and dust and risk factor! all that said, if you are putting a chanfer on a hundred of the same piece than it would be more efficient to use router and router table... Since I'm a one piece( not two the same) at a time wood worker, there is no time saving in using power tools.

[John Coloccia]

I'm a hand tool AND power tool junky. Some things to note, though. I can definitely make a better joint, especially on thin stock, using my hand plane jointer vs my Jet. Especially in hard, thin wood, my LN #7 Jointer just performs incredibly well. And exotic, highly figured woods? Forget the jointer and the planer....it just tears it up. Hand planes all the way.

Hand tools are very often faster, especially if you're only make on of something. Often times, I can have made a cut with my Japanese saw in the time it would have taken to setup my table saw for the same cut.

Also, sometimes you just don't want the noise and the mess.

So it's like asking, "Why does anyone still have candles when we all have electricity and batteries?". Well, because sometimes the electricity is out and the batteries are dead. Also, sometimes you're just in the mood for a candle, see?

[Pedro Reyes]

So as someone said, it is a choice, if your router and ROS please you, then no need to fettle with the hand tools, but I guess that answer is not what you were looking for.

IMHO, the surface left by a well tuned (well used) hand tool (be it plane, scraper) is much better than anything you can accomplish with any powertool including the ROS, not to mention the dust and noise you are spared. Your chamfer may not be as even, but it should be smoother or something is being done wrong. If I wanted perfectly even everywhere, I would save the $5 router bit and head to IKEA. Besides comparing a $5 bit to a plane? You got a free router and router table with the $5 bit?;)

When you can take the workpiece to the table, the router can be good, altho when it comes to set up and prep, I would say that someone using hand tools can possibly do it faster (for 1 piece at a time, certainly not for production)... but when you have something partially built or awkward to handle, the ability to take the tool to the piece is a very nice feauture.

Those are just two "practical" considerations, but it is not about being practical, it is about enjoying the work.

Some people enjoy watering their yards, spend time on it while doing it, others install watering systems so that they can watch TV instead... none is wrong, just different.

/p

[Joel Goodman]

I think the "do it yourself" impulse that pushes us all to the shop is enhanced with hand tools. YMMV. But it's a "romantic" concept -- as is woodworking as a hobby. Try adding a little hand tool work and see what you think. If nothing else the quiet is nice.

[Sam Takeuchi]

It's simple. You either make something by hand, or you are just operating machines.

[Jim Koepke]

I must say that I am confused as to why there is such a wide range of planes and prices of such, when a jointer, or router table and sandpaper can accomplish about the same task, and maybe better.

For example, if I needed to put a chamfer, dadoes or rabbet in a piece of wood. I could use a block or rabbet plane or my router and router table. A $5 woodcraft bit will do a fine job in my router. But i guess for those who prefer hand tools I could use my $40 Stanley block plane and can almost accomplish the same results with a chamfer. All be it not as smooth, or even as the router. Also,why is there such wide price range for a tool that each will do the same thing with similar results. i.e. Stanley block plane $39, LN or LV block plane $145. Granted I may need to tune the Stanley, but once tuned always tuned. (Or at least close) Why should I want to spend over $100 more for a plane that will do the same thing as my less expensive Stanley?

Now I am not a hand tool pioneer and actually prefer to use my router table for a consistent and smooth result. With hand tools, I find the results not as satisfactory.

Also, why would I want to use a smoothing hand plane in place of my box planer and some 220 grit sand paper on a orbital sander?

Am I missing something or is it that I like cannot appreciate the experience of building something with "my own hands" and just an electric plug junkie?

Seriously, I have long considered buying a LN or LV block or shoulder plane, but have a hard time justifying the price when a $5 router bit or my $40 Stanley accomplishes the same thing.

My shop harbors quite a few old $40 and less Stanley planes. almost all of them can put a smoother surface on a piece of wood than 220 grit sandpaper.

None of them throw dust into the air. None of them wake up my neighbors at odd hours.

In reality, if you can make what you want to make, it does not matter if you are killing electrons or slinging sweat. Many of us do blends of both.

I bet I can take care of a plane with a dull blade faster then most people can take care of a joiner or box planer with dull blades.

Then, there is the moulding planes. A router can not run an ogee, bead, reeds or many other shapes more then an inch or two from an edge.

My thoughts are if your router and 220 grit sandpaper can do a better chamfer than your block plane, you have answered your question about the reason for such a wide price range in hand planes. Something is wrong with your $40 block plane. It may just need a good sharpening.

Just finished cutting tongue and grooves on 24 boards. Sure, I could have bought a router bit set at woodcraft, $120. Oops, my router is a wimpy 1/4" collet. Won't take the 1/2" shank bit.

The plane used to do the T & G was less than $120 and had other blades included.

Besides, it is kind of fun to make shavings and then use them in the fire place. It is kind of hard to collect and burn saw dust.

jim

[Brian Ashton]

There are two main reasons why I prefer hand tools almost exclusively over power tools:

There's a nice calming quiet pace that you can never achieve with power tools.

You can't do with power tools what you can by hand - not adequately for me that is. I've seen some pretty impressive results on 4 axis cnc machines but it's still very easy to pic which is made by hand and which is made by machine. There is a personality to hand made that can't be duplicated on a machine, unless it's added by hand.

[Dennis Collins]

Thank you for your thoughtful and obvious heart felt responses. I have read more of the emotion for woodworking into you replies than the actual words say. You have a passion to enjoy the task at hand and the beauty and sound of a finely tuned hand tool doing what your hands tell it to not. Not the flying dust and ear screeching noise. I must say that I am often rushed in my woodworking projects, must like my life and career.

May be some day I can realize the emotional response to woodworking in a silent shop with the occasional scrap of a hand tool.

One last thought, if I were to venture into purchasing another plane, what would you recommend to feel the experience you have shared and the most overall useful. Possibly a replace of my Stanley block and low angle plane or may be a smoother or shoulder plane? Do you have to go expensive, LN or LV, for a plane to get an enjoyable and usable experience? Or, can you tune a less expensive unit, i.e.Stanley or other?

[Chuck Saunders]

You can certainly tune a less expensive unit. Probably better to get an old plane and refurbish than get a new cheap plane where the cost savings that are manufactured in may make tuning more difficult and less rewarding. Your Stanley block plane is fine, make sure it is sharp and you may find it to be quite handy. The LN and LV are just more ready to go out of the box. The Wood River from Woodcraft are pretty good quality at a more attractive price. Enjoy the woodworking and try to avoid rushing, from both a safety standpoint as well as the enjoyment factor. Be it router or router plane they are just tools, use what you feel is the best tool for the job at hand.

[David Christopher]

Dennis, I felt the same way that you do a few months ago, and from messing around on the site I decided to buy a LN block plane. after playing with it for awhile I wondered how I ever done without it. next I bought a LV jack and wow...I still use my power tools mostly but anything that I want to fit tightly I allways break out one of my planes.....If you wonder why the price of the planes are so different,, push your stanley across a piece of wood then push a LN or LV across the same board and no one will have to explain

[Pam Niedermayer]

All of the above plus if you make enough sawdust you'll soon be paying all those dollars you did(n't) save to an oncologist to heal you, according to the US Forest Service.

Pam

[Jon Crowley]

The way I'd look at pricing: Why buy a Festool sander when the Harbor Freight one will also sand? :)

[Ron Brese]

Dennis,

Like most people you have judged planes based on the way you have been able to get them top perform. I would highly suggest that the next time a Lie-Nielsen Hand Tool Event is in your area you should go observe and ask questions. These events provide an educational opportunity that you will seldom get anywhere else. Depending on which quest exhibitors are at the particular event you will be able to see everything from a $100.00 block plane to infill planes that are in the $2000.00 and up price range, but most importantly you will find out how to make planes work to a very high standard of function and you will learn a lot otherwise about the capabilities of these tools.

You'll see some surfaces created by these tools that you probably did not think were possible to achieve, which means you will learn the difference between a $40.00 plane and a $400.00 plane and the difference between sort of sharp and remarkably sharp cutting edges on plane irons. The world of woodworking hand tools is wide and deep and more varied that one can imagine. Before you pass judgment on whether you will pursue doing more work with hand tools do some investigating and some learning. The next thing you know, you'll own no less than 10 planes. (grin)

Ron Brese

Disclaimer: I make and sell infill planes and I exhibit at some of these L-N events and I am very biased in my opinion concerning hand tools.

[George Beck]

I usually don't jump in on these debates. It is sort of a different strokes for different folks thing. However, I want to second what Ron Brese stated. I just attended the Lie-Nielsen hand tool event in Indianapolis and I had a great time. I plane everything but I mostly have Japanese planes and wooden planes I made for myself (that's a whole different affliction). I also cannot imagine having one plane (that is like picking one Beatle song). If I was forced to pick one, I would consider the Lie-Nielsen low angle BU jack plane (or the LV). I purchased this plane at the event with three blades. I have a toothing blade for roughing stock without tearout, a O-1 steel blade sharpened pretty much dead straight at a low angle(about 23 degrees), an the A-2 steel blade with a slight camber on the edge. This one plane is now a roughing plane, a shooting board plane, a large smoother, a small jointer and a jack plane. It can and has taken gossamer shavings off birds eye maple. It might be worth looking at. BTW, Ron makes incredible planes! If I ever sell the old Triumph Spit-fire I might get one.

George

[Frank Drew]

I must say that I am confused as to why there is such a wide range of planes...



Dennis, to answer this part of your question, all these sizes and varieties of planes and other hand tools evolved during the time before powered machinery became available but sophisticated work was expected and offered.

[David Gendron]

Price Doesn't realy mather in term of the way the tool work and I think Jim K. proved that many time. I made a Krenov plane a few months ago and it cost me $40 for the Hock blade assembly and a few pieces of sraps for the boddy and I have a better plane than most of my metal boddy plane...

[Jim Koepke]

One thing we are fortunate to have in this conference is the Sticky at the top for Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs.

I wish some of the other conferences had this feature.

There is a lot of information about old hand tools, how to treat them and how to make them perform contained in that thread.

It is a great read for anyone with questions about hand tools.

jim

[Danny Thompson]

...when a jointer, or router table and sandpaper can accomplish about the same task, and maybe better.


Somebody get a rope. . . :D

[Joe Close]

Interesting signature line Dennis,

"Measure twice, and cut--WAIT!-- better measure again then cut once, twice or whatever it takes to fit.:) "


With a hand tool, you measure twice, cut once a wee long, then sneak up on the final fit w/ your hand plane....:D

I think Chris Schwarz said in his hand plane book something along these lines... it is pretty difficult to setup a table saw to take off a thousand'th of an inch from a board, but it is a pretty simple task w/ a hand plane.

And for me its just kind of fun to use these types of tools...

[Brian Kent]

Because morning coffee tastes better with wood shavings than sawdust.:)

Because I can plane a board at 6 AM but wait until after 8 AM to use power tools, and I leave for work at 8:45.

Brian

[lowell holmes]

I also used to have horses. Why or who would anyone ride a horse in this day and age? Sometimes, it is a satifying thing to do.

The big reason that got me started was having to make corrections on a cherry blanket chest and I had no hand skills. It's very difficult to make a small adjustment with a screaming tool that is about to amputate a finger. A chisel, hand saw, or my new favorite tool . . . a 3/16" flat float from Lie Nielsen makes it quickly and easily.

[Dan Lee]

Mostly power tool user but I learned to sharpen bout 5 years ago and that let me incorporate hand plane and chisel use to the arsenal:)
Some of my perferred uses with planes are faster and crisper results cleaning up box joints and thru DT. Cleaning up TS or jointer marks on the edges of boards and MT joinery. Love that LV medium shoulder plane, couple of swipes with that and a perfect fit:D
I've lately been using a scrub plane to get boards to wide for my jointer 'flat enouf' to take a first pass through the power planer.
Options are great thing

[Dennis Collins]

OK Guys. I have been trying to find a dictionary for plane usage as I have heard so many plane type being described here that I feel like that unless I have 15 different type of planes, I will still be missing the one that I need when I need it.

That being said is there a logic to the plane lingo:
block (Small hand plane, right)
rabbet (I think I understand this one)
jointer (like my jet jointer but by hand)
rabbet block
bench
jack
fore
smooth plane
4 smooth plane
4.5 smooth plane
bevel up smooth plane
low angle smooth plane
on & on.

[John Coloccia]

OK Guys. I have been trying to find a dictionary for plane usage as I have heard so many plane type being described here that I feel like that unless I have 15 different type of planes, I will still be missing the one that I need when I need it.

That being said is there a logic to the plane lingo:
block (Small hand plane, right)
rabbet (I think I understand this one)
jointer (like my jet jointer but by hand)
rabbet block
bench
jack
fore
smooth plane
4 smooth plane
4.5 smooth plane
bevel up smooth plane
low angle smooth plane
on & on.

Think that's confusing? Ever hear golf club names? Niblicks, baffs, spoons....

Without getting way too far into it:

The smoothing planes are short and are designed to make a nice surface, ready for finish, or at most a little scraping. This will not make your piece flat because it's not designed to make it flat.

Jack, fore, scrub and jointer planes are typically used to prepare rough stock and get it flat and straight. The distinguishing characteristics are the length of the sole. The longer it is, the flatter the resulting piece will be but the more difficult it will be to fix large imperfections.

Bench planes have the bevel facing down, and have a chipbreaker on top of the iron. Block planes have the bevel facing up and have no chip breaker. So a bevel up jointer, for example, is a rather large block plane, even though it looks like a bench plane.

The difference and advantages between bevel up and bevel down really depend on the type of wood and type of work you're doing. Bevel up works great on end grain and maybe highly figured woods. Bevel down works well everywhere else. Bevel down is almost invariably larger and more complex because of the required chip breaker.

The most important rule, though, is that there are no rules and much of the advantages, disadvantages and differences will change depending on what the craftsman is looking for, and their particular style of usage. So it's kind of like the difference between making a groove with a dado blade vs. a router.

Like I said before, I'm a hand tool and power tool junky. I just use whatever I think will be most efficient. For example, I'll often use my jack plane to very roughly true a board before making the initial face jointing pass on my jointer. Why? Because it takes me about a minute to get it to where I just need a couple of passes on the jointer, and when I flatten it a bit before hand I don't end up with a big taper. With some of the VERY rough boards I use, it's very easy to joint a taper into the board. It's very easy to get it flat enough by hand that I don't have to worry about it.

Also, my hand jointed edges are, for lack of a better word, perfect. I've never achieved that on my jointer. It's not that it hasn't been close enough, but they've never been just absolutely perfect. When you're gluing boards that are made out of very hard, very stiff wood, and they're only .095 thick to begin with, good enough is just not good enough, and some of this wood just chips apart on the jointer anyway.

If you're a power tool user, the most useful planes in my opinion would probably be:

1) jack plane for getting really rough stock ready to power joint or power plane
2) a decent block plane for shaving a bit off of end grain here and there, or other small jobs (think like the stanley's you see at Home Depot....something like that....just not THAT particular one...LOL).
3) High quality sharpening equipment. I really like my Norton water stones. The combo 1000/8000 stone, a leather strop, a granite plate (for flattening the stone) and a decent honing guide will sharpen practically every plane and chisel in your shop. Don't even try to use a plane or chisel unless you can get it surgically sharp. It will just frustrate you and completely defeat the purpose of quality tools.

Point #3 can't be stated enough. Much of the perceived uselessness of hand tools is the use of crappy, dull hand tools. Once you use a high quality saw, plane or chisel, and see how fast and easy it can be, you'll find yourself starting to use them for all sorts of things because often times it's quicker.

Just my opinion.

[Nathan Callender]

Dennis - like others here, I think planes are great, but honestly, I only have one. A cheap block plane. However, it is tuned up and very sharp and it's amazing how quickly I can make small adjustments to get joints perfect. It provides a function that no power tool can.

I'd like a larger plane ( 10-14" ) as an all around plane for rough jointing boards before going through a planer. I'd also like a shoulder plane.. And, if I ever get a good deal on a combination plane and set of irons, I will not pass it up. Those look AMAZING! But, I'm more interested in building stuff than collecting planes so I'm not inclined to purchase the very nice but expensive LN items.

So, get a few to cover the bases, tune them up and I bet you'll find a use for them. If you don't, no big deal!

[Jim Koepke]

3) High quality sharpening equipment. I really like my Norton water stones. The combo 1000/8000 stone, a leather strop, a granite plate (for flattening the stone) and a decent honing guide will sharpen practically every plane and chisel in your shop. Don't even try to use a plane or chisel unless you can get it surgically sharp. It will just frustrate you and completely defeat the purpose of quality tools.

Point #3 can't be stated enough. Much of the perceived uselessness of hand tools is the use of crappy, dull hand tools. Once you use a high quality saw, plane or chisel, and see how fast and easy it can be, you'll find yourself starting to use them for all sorts of things because often times it's quicker.

Just my opinion.

The three most important items with hand planes... Sharpness, sharpness and sharpness! Of course, that is for a properly tuned plane.

The most amazing moment of woodworking just might be when taking as thin a shaving as your plane can while you are exhaling and the shaving just slowly rises aloft and floats away.

That will hook you on hand planes.

jim

[Brad Lehman]

I'm far from an expert, but I'll share my experience none the less.

I was in much the same situation a few years ago: 'just not getting it'. I was rapidly acquiring power tools, each with an ever increasing 'gizmo-ness' for lack of a better word.

What inititally got my started into hand tool work was making edge glued panels. No matter how hard I tried, I simply couldn't get a glue up that didn't have slight steps at each joint line, which I then had to sand out. I don't know about you, but I really, really don't like sanding.

I thought there had to be a better way, and I was eventually pointed to hand planes. At first I was incredulous. "Handplanes??!?!... you mean those torturous things we had to use in Junior High Woodshop?!??!" After doing some more reading, and more panel glue ups, I was willing to give it a try. After a lot of reading, and a few modest purchases (a decent old stanley, and a lot of sandpaper, and a piece of flat glass), I did try it and was blown away.

Now for me, there were three events that really made me a believer:

1. Getting ahold of an already fettled old Stanley smoother from Walt @ Brass City: This showed me how a plane *should* work...

2. Learning how to really sharpen a blade. Much has been written about this already, but it makes all the difference regardless of how much you spend on a plane...

3. Experiencing a really great plane (and this one was just last night)... I picked up the Lie-Nielsen Low Angle Jack and just got a chance to play with it last night. Now I can see where the value is in what they ask for their tools.

As they say, the slope is slippery. I can't remember the last power tool I purchased.

-- brad

[Mike Null]

Dennis

No expert here either but once you experience using a hand plane you will understand why so many prefer the original cordless tools.

Buy the best low angle block plane you can afford as your first hand plane.

I have several hand planes but none of the premier quality variety. Still, they work well if well sharpened.

[Adam Johan Bergren]

Most relevant points have been covered well here, but I do have one to add.

I started wood working using exclusively power tools, and I always though in terms of power tool joinery. I got fed up with sanding- I hate the noise, dust, and time it takes. I bought a hand plane (eventually dumping the cheap footprint for a Veritas) and after learning sharpening skills and spending some time with it, I can smooth a surface quickly.

However, the more important point for me was that I started to ENJOY preparing surfaces! This led to me spending more time and being more careful with my work. Rather than speeding through parts of the projects that I was working on, I slowed down. Because I was forced to take extra time in learning the techniques of using hand tools, I was also forced to spend extra time in getting the process right. The results was much better work. I actually paid close attention to details because I like what I was doing. No more speeding through the boring or tedious parts because they had become something I WANTED to spend time doing.

After completing a project all by hand, I can say there is something to looking at the finished piece, and thinking, "I did that with hand tools." Not only is there actually more precision than what can be done using power tools, but I enjoyed every SECOND of the build.

Certainly this would not be a universal experience, but it is kind of like doing something you love for a living, which I am also lucky enough to proudly say is true for me!

[Don Dorn]

I too became a neander after being a hard core power tool user. It certainly is more theroputic, quiet and as I've found, usually faster in many cases. I really don't like having to make numerous jigs and spend so much time setting up machinery for a minor task. Now I use them (machinery) for thier intended purpose and life is easier. I spent a whole lot more time with a ROS and changing grits than I do now with a few swipes of an old Stanley, LV BU smoother or my LN #3 - and get a far superior surface.

Yesterday, I put together a serving tray for someone and dovetailed the edges. At a dry fit, it sat perfectly flat but after being glued and coming out of the clamps, it rocked slightly. About two minutes (including testing.) with my LN rabbiting block plane on the high spots, it was sitting perfectly flat again and you can't see where I removed those light shavings, the surface is still smooth and no sander, no dust - just hard to explain. Sharp is key, but don't chase it forever, for some it's like golf with no way to achive "perfect".

[David Marcus Brown]

Thank you for your thoughtful and obvious heart felt responses. I have read more of the emotion for woodworking into you replies than the actual words say.

Where are you located in Virginia? If a hand tool lover is in your area I'm sure they'd give you a lesson or two. I always enjoy letting people try out my planes. For most it's an eye-opener. For some it's almost religious.

That $40 to $150 block plane can do the work of 4 or 5 router bits plus the job of a thickness planer, a ROS sander and a benchtop jointer. That totals at least $500 in power tools accomplished with one hand tool. ;)

[Dennis Collins]

Guys. Thanks again for the wealth of knowledge. I live in the Richmond Va area and would enjoy the chance to watch some planes in action. May be I need to stop by Woodcraft for a demo or two or three.... If you are a hand planer in the Richmond area (southside) and would not mind showing off your skill and teaching me a few things about hand planes, Send me a message.

Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experiences.