real wood or veneer

[Bill Bixby]

I'm planning on building this bed: http://www.kmpfurniture.com/admin/uploads/addi_pics/866_1.jpg
and another view:
http://www.kmpfurniture.com/admin/uploads/addi_pics/866_2.jpg

one more: https://stores.homestead.com/RVrtanesyan1/catalog/bed-5.jpg

as best I can tell the visible parts are essentially four planks that are 16/4 by 7" by 7.5 ft (roughly).

my budget is around $400 so I cant get anything really expensive and since the stain is so dark the grain doesnt really matter.

Would it be better to buy the 16/4 lumber in red oak or something and stain it or try to build the planks by sandwiching MDF together and then veneer with wenge or indian rosewood?

I have zero experience with veneer and I also want to make sure whatever I build is very durable and will last a long time.

Thanks for your input.

[Todd Bin]

As usual in woodworking it all depends. Unless you have a vacuum press or lots of clamps and cauls the veneering will not be really possible. From looking at the bed I would bet they pieces are torsion boxes. You could build it out of something like maple ply especially since the stain is so dark. Use a gel stain to cut down on the blotching. Then top coat with something durable. Thy plywood edges would be covered by a solid wood (maple) if you use maple ply.

You could also use Ash.

[Jamie Buxton]

Those planks are not likely solid hardwood. That'd be too expensive, and they'd weigh so much that assembly might be difficult. They might be veneered torsion boxes, as Todd says. Another way to build them would be to make them from 4/4 lumber, with an L-shaped cross section. The two pieces of lumber are beveled at 45 degrees along one long edge, so the seam between the two pieces happens at the corner. Your eye expects things to change at corners, and you never notice the seam.

[Bill Bixby]

so build a torsion box out of plywood then 'veneer' with a nice 4/4 hardwood? I could probably afford an exotic hardwood that way. If thats what you meant, I will try it.

Thanks very much!

[Jamie Buxton]

so build a torsion box out of plywood then 'veneer' with a nice 4/4 hardwood? I could probably afford an exotic hardwood that way. If thats what you meant, I will try it.

Thanks very much!

Well, not quite. Generally when people talk about torsion boxes, they mean ones built with sheet goods like plywood. Gluing 4/4 lumber to plywood isn't the best construction practice. It will try to expand and contract, and the plywood won't let it. Gluing thin lumber (that is, veneer) to plywood is okay, because the plywood overwhelms the thin lumber's attempts to breathe.

You'd be better off just using the 4/4 lumber to form an L-shaped cross section "beam".

[Paul Atkins]

I agree with Jamie and Todd, but you said the grain does not matter with dark stain, why use rosewood? Looks like a nice project. I'd be a little wary of jumping out of bed at night and landing on that sharp edge.

[Bill Bixby]

I was willing to compromise the grain because i thought I was going to be purchasing 16/4 lumber which would eat up my budget. The torsion box will be very inexpensive.

If plywood is a bad idea, Home depot sells 1x6 stock that I could use instead, then I will encase the torsion box with 4/4 wenge, ei rosewood or zircote.
edit - on second thought, I will probably just build the torsion box using the final material on the visible portions and use 1x6 stock for the underside and lattice of the torsion box.

I'm I on the right path?

Jamie, I cant envision the 'L shaped cross section' you are referring to. I also found that if I move up to 5/4 I could use my miter lock bit to bevel the edges and hide the seam as you mentioned

Also, I'm in San diego where the humidity is usually low and constant year round.

[David DeCristoforo]

"...then I will encase the torsion box with 4/4 wenge..."

You're not listening. (Sorry) If you are building torsion boxes, forget about 4/4 stock. You need to veneer the torsion boxes with veneer, not lumber. If you are going to use 4/4 lumber, you might as well just fabricate the boxes out of that. If you build torsion boxes and you do not have an adequate pressing method, you will need to look at a paper or phenolic backed veneer that can be applied with contact cement. And in any species like wenge or rosewood, that is not going to be cheap material. I would forget trying to build that bed using anything you could get at Home Depot.

[Bill Bixby]

"...then I will encase the torsion box with 4/4 wenge..."

If you are going to use 4/4 lumber, you might as well just fabricate the boxes out of that.

thanks David...I think that is the route I will go.

[Josiah Bartlett]

Poplar takes stain very nicely and is pretty inexpensive. If you don't care about the grain it can be stained very dark and it can look nice. It is also easy to machine and stable.

[Larry Fox]

Not to discourage you, but in my opinion - it aint happening for $400. I agree with the other posters on the torsion box construction but that thing looks to have about 3 - 4 sheets of ply in it. You are not buying in bulk so you are looking at ~$80 a sheet for the kind of stuff you will need to pull this off. Look at the finish on it, it is essentially a satin sheen and at least one of the pictures shows it in a raking light and the surfaces appear to be pretty much dead flat and they don't sell sheet goods like that at Home Depot. Based on this, you are already at $240 for just ply. Figure at least another $100- $150 for the solid stock you will need to do the ribbing in the torsion box(s), edging, etc. You are up to $340 - $390. Add in fasteners, finishing supplies, miscellaneous hardware and you are over budget.

As to veneer, I suppose it could be done with cauls but to get it that flat I would not even attempt it without a vac press. That quantity of veneer would also be shockingly expensive and you would most likely have to seem it and that would be a long seem.

Another thing to consider, how are you going to make the right angles at the edges of the platforms? I would think that you would want to miter them. Can you make a tight miter joint that long?

I think this is one of those that may look simple and straightforward upon initial inspection, once you got into it I think it would become quickly apparent that it was quite involved.

Again, please don't interpret my comments as an attempt to discourage you but more to point out that I think your budget is a little light. If you are still game, you should definitely go for it as it looks like a very rewarding project.

[Bill Bixby]

I wonder if I could save a few more dollars by making the two visible sides of the torsion box out of the exotic wood and the inside and underside out of something else like oak or poplar? Could a problem arise from the two woods expanding or contracting in different amounts?

[Larry Fox]

I wonder if I could save a few more dollars by making the two visible sides of the torsion box out of the exotic wood and the inside and underside out of something else like oak or poplar? Could a problem arise from the two woods expanding or contracting in different amounts?

Bill, am I missing something? In looking at the picture I don't seen any grain or figure whatsoever. The finish looks completely opaque to me, as if it was done with a tinted laquer or something similar. If that is the case, I would think that you could get away with any tight-grained wood like maple and shoot it with some tinted USL. This would help keep your cost down.

There is a color chart on this page.

http://www.homesteadfinishingproducts.com/htdocs/targetcoatings.htm

There is a link on there to the full chart of colors available. Search for the word "here" as it is linked to the chart. If you have the ability to spray and want an opaque finish, this is the way to go.

[Jamie Buxton]

I wonder if I could save a few more dollars by making the two visible sides of the torsion box out of the exotic wood and the inside and underside out of something else like oak or poplar? Could a problem arise from the two woods expanding or contracting in different amounts?


You don't need the inside or underside pieces. Nobody can see them. And then you have the L-shaped cross-section I was describing above.

[Robert Reece]

That big shelf seems like it might be a hindrance in the middle of the night.
when you build it, make sure to send us back some pics and how you did it.
If it were doing it, I'd try to build it out of 4/4 hardwood, beveled on the edges. I'd just form a box out of the hardwood, not even a torsion box. No internal members. The trick there will be beveling those long pieces of wood accurately.

[Sean Nagle]

You need to veneer the torsion boxes with veneer, not lumber. If you are going to use 4/4 lumber, you might as well just fabricate the boxes out of that. If you build torsion boxes and you do not have an adequate pressing method, you will need to look at a paper or phenolic backed veneer that can be applied with contact cement. And in any species like wenge or rosewood, that is not going to be cheap material.

Torsion boxes with 12" MDF for the skins would take the paper-backed veneer very well. Contact cement will work, but so will the "iron-on" veneer method. I've used the iron-on method to veneer some fairly large subwoofer boxes with great success. Exotic veneer will cost quite a bit.

[Bill Bixby]

I'm going to try for something similar to what Jamie suggested. It will be a three sided torsion box, open on the bottom with the inner side going all the way to the floor. My main concern is what will happen if one of the kids jumps on the platform. Its cantilevered 7 inches out, hopefully it wont snap off.

I've been practicing making a long cut with the miter lock bit and results have been good with an occasional small splinter on the outside corners. I'm using oak stock for the practice runs.

I did discover that I'm going to have to upgrade my router fence so I'll do that this week

Found another pic to aid in design

http://www.haikudesigns.com/images/slats.jpg

[Igor Petrenko]

I would not do miters at all. It's going to be too painfull for such a big piece.
If there will be no grain then i would just do butt joints, with good sanding and finishing they will be almost invisible. And edge will be way more repairable, you'll make a lot of dings in it with your bones :) You could even round it over slightly to have less bruises.

[Todd Bin]

Ok. I would like to try again. I did a horrible sketch of the torsion box idea but I think you can get the basic idea from the sketch. I also went back and looked at the pictures again. I think that you can build this from 3 sheets of ply if you plan propperly. I also looked at the finish. The wood is a closed grain wood and stained dark brown. I would expect it is maple or birch. If you want a more open grained look you could use ash. ash is pretty inexpensive and doesn't have the blotching problems that maple or birch have. Ebonized ash is what you see in all the furniture at pottery barn or crate and barrel.

OK when making the torsion box you will rip, say 6" strips, as long as you need them, say 7'8". Make some ribs using ply. You make the ribs as wide as you want the thickness of the bed rails to be. Make dado's in the 6" strips, put the strips back to back and glue in the ribs. Then attach your 4 quarter lumber on the edge of the ply. you can then rout a profile on the edge (for example 1/8" roundover) so the edge isn't so sharp.

I would say forget about the veneer. It will blow your budget and make the project a lot more complicated. Don't get your ply at the BORG. Find a hardwood supplier.

This would all be very quick. You could build this thing in a saturday.

~Todd

[Bill Bixby]

this looks like the best way to go. I'm going to miter the outside corners to hide the seam and use a butt joint with dowels (dont have a biscuit joiner) on the inside.

I'm concerned about using plywood on the box ribs as it might expand or contract differently than the wenge. I'll probably end up going with oak since it has similar properties.

I already bought the wenge and its really nice. I'm $122 over budget but its worth it.

[Peter Quinn]

this looks like the best way to go. I'm going to miter the outside corners to hide the seam and use a butt joint with dowels (dont have a biscuit joiner) on the inside.

I'm concerned about using plywood on the box ribs as it might expand or contract differently than the wenge. I'll probably end up going with oak since it has similar properties.

I already bought the wenge and its really nice. I'm $122 over budget but its worth it.

Wow, just reading this thread. Did you suspect you could get all the Wenge needed for that bead for under $400? Wenge is lovely, but not much fun to work with and IMO a fantastic waste of money in most cases. Its also pretty hard to make a piece of something right next to wenge that isn't wenge look like it IS wenge. QS ash, some glue, and a pot of very black dye will take you to the same place for much less money. Or even rift sawn WO all around.

Heck, I would have made the whole thing out of 12/4 African mahogany and be done with it!:D Of course that approach assumes you either have the machines to process lumber that big or a great deal of ambition to do it with smaller weapons.

PS: Are you familiar with tape miters? I have done a number of pieces of millwork using them that are much longer than that bed with good success. Yes, some glue and a role of fiber reinforced packing tape will handle the whole job with ease and few if any clamps, no need for lock miter bits. The only tricky part I see will be the ends of the foot board. Make sure to keep your grain orientation correct there.

[Bill Bixby]

[QUOTE=Peter Quinn;1244989]Wow, just reading this thread. Did you suspect you could get all the Wenge needed for that bead for under $400? /QUOTE]

yeah, I learned alot about board feet calculations this week.

[Bill Bixby]

I've successfully used the lock miter along the length of the top pieces. It went more smoothly than I expected, much smoother then the test pieces I ran through. I think the weight of the wood was a big help.

The next step will be tricky. I need to bevel the ends of these 8 foot boards. Anyone have any thoughts on what I can do to insure that they move straight across the cutting head? I thought of building a jig so that I could move the router instead but the lock miter but was difficult to set up and needs to be dead on in order for the edges to be aligned. It may be possible to make a set up block while its still in the perfect position and use that to set up the jig.

Thoughts?

[Tony Bilello]

"..... If you are building torsion boxes, forget about 4/4 stock. You need to veneer the torsion boxes with veneer, not lumber..... you will need to look at a paper or phenolic backed veneer that can be applied with contact cement. And in any species like wenge or rosewood, that is not going to be cheap material. .........I would forget trying to build that bed using anything you could get at Home Depot.
I strongly agree with David on all points.
Point #1: Torsion boxes are easy to build and relatively light weight. I would use plywood, not MDF for this.
Point #2: Applying veneer with adhesive backing or contact cement is relatively easy especially on this project with all flat surfaces.
Point #3: Never, and I mean never, buy any wood from Home Depot.

Pay close attention to the seam lines in the photo and how this is assembled in several sections. This should be a relatively easy build. The sections can be joined in many different ways.
I think an ebonized oak look would be nice and relatively inexpensive.
The underside framing could be made using oak plywood to keep costs down. The torsion box could be made out of birch ply and then veneered.

[Bill Bixby]

All glued up now and it looks very good. I'll post pics tomorrow.

Mixed reviews on the lock miter bit. It creates an amazingly tight joint but it must be set up to perfection and the wood must pass over the bit perfectly as well. running several 8 ft boards over the bit gave me a few places where the joint opened up a bit. I used epoxy mixed with sanding dust to fill them in then stuck a few splinters on top.

[Bill Bixby]

Here are the pics from the nearly finished project. I've just got a few things to tighten up but it turned out really well. The only problem I encountered was a little sagging so I put an L bracket in each corner and it tightened right up.

The inside and torsion box stiffeners are made from poplar. I was a bit over budget so I had to save where I could. The second pic shows my attempt at a wenge emulation stain. Its a water based dark walnut with an oil based ebony on top. Since oil and water dont mix, the ebony didnt soak in well resulting in the 'grain' effect.

The wenge was finished with 3 coats of General Finish Arm-R-Seal.

Thanks to everyone for all your help!