The man's been gettin' me down

[Jason Hatlelid]

Hey Creekers,

I live in one of those managed sprawling apartment developments where most of us get our own one car garage. I've had my shop setup since I moved in, and I've been doing quite a bit of work in there, running a noisy direct drive table saw, quite a loud router, miter saw, jigsaw, etc., for a few months now.

Amazingly, I hadn't received any calls from the management until I began to rip some 8/4 hard maple with my puny benchtop saw and it blew out the fuse breaker on the circuit I was using, which just happened to power all the garage doors in my building. I suppose they weren't too happy about that, because I got a call the next day telling me I wasn't supposed to use the power in the garage like that.

Well, no problem, I just ran an extension cord across the hall into my apartment and plugged into my circuit.

Now, in general, all my neighbors have been coming by while I'm working and visiting with me. They're all real interested in what I'm doing and I've asked them all if I'm being too loud and none of them have cared.

Except, now, I've received a complaint, and management is basically not willing to compromise an inch and is insiting I remove my workshop. I am right in the middle of building a Cherry Dresser with beautiful figured Bubinga panels and wenge inlays. I just upgraded to a used (but awesome) contractor belt drive (quieter) table saw. I have put in too much money to stop!

*sigh* but they started quoting the rules as spelled out in the lease to me. I have to be able to fit a car in my garage. Well, hey, no problem... I deisgned all of my workbenches to be fold-away. The table saw is on casters. In about a half hour I had my car back in there.

Problem #2 from management, I cannot use their power in the garage and I cannot run a cord across the hall to my apartment because it's a liability hazard for them--someone could trip. Well, I figure... they always have these carpet cleaning vans coming around stringing their hoses and power cords across the hallways... aren't those the same kinds of hazards? Why should they get away with it and not me? Can't i put a carpet or a piece of hardboard over the cord to build a ramp up and over it and thus no longer make it a tripping hazard?

The only other problem I have to deal with is the "nuisence" factor. But my friends tell me they can't even hear my table saw from within my own apartment, which simply has a hall corridor separating it from the garage. The really loud machines are the router and miter saw. I know I can do without those for the most part & use hand tools for the rest.

The management company clearly stated to me that if they got another coimplaint from a neighbor they would send me a letter and ask me to move out.

I can't give up my hobby!

I was thinking about writing a letter to everyone in my building and explaining the situation and trying to be reasonable with them. Seeing if I could maybe confine my saw use to a period between 10am and 1pm during the weekdays, presuably when they'd all be at work and not bothered by the noice anyway (I admit I HAVE been working in the evenings around dinner time on the week days just after I get off work myself).

Does anybody think this is a good idea? I hesitate to go as far as knocking on doors... some people might be put off by direct confrontation, right?

I really don't know, but I am determined to find a happy solution to the problem.

Does anybody have any ideas or thoughts?

Really appreciate it.

-Jason Hatlelid

[Mike Heidrick]

First - Welcome.

Second - Move.

If not Second -Third - 100% Hand tools.

No offense, but why on earth would you take up power tool wood working where you live?

Fourth - Seek out a community shop.

Fifth - rent shop space in a warehouse designed for shop space.

Sixth - buy land and build a shop.

[Jason White]

I think you should move.

Jason


Hey Creekers,

I live in one of those managed sprawling apartment developments where most of us get our own one car garage. I've had my shop setup since I moved in, and I've been doing quite a bit of work in there, running a noisy direct drive table saw, quite a loud router, miter saw, jigsaw, etc., for a few months now.

Amazingly, I hadn't received any calls from the management until I began to rip some 8/4 hard maple with my puny benchtop saw and it blew out the fuse breaker on the circuit I was using, which just happened to power all the garage doors in my building. I suppose they weren't too happy about that, because I got a call the next day telling me I wasn't supposed to use the power in the garage like that.

Well, no problem, I just ran an extension cord across the hall into my apartment and plugged into my circuit.

Now, in general, all my neighbors have been coming by while I'm working and visiting with me. They're all real interested in what I'm doing and I've asked them all if I'm being too loud and none of them have cared.

Except, now, I've received a complaint, and management is basically not willing to compromise an inch and is insiting I remove my workshop. I am right in the middle of building a Cherry Dresser with beautiful figured Bubinga panels and wenge inlays. I just upgraded to a used (but awesome) contractor belt drive (quieter) table saw. I have put in too much money to stop!

*sigh* but they started quoting the rules as spelled out in the lease to me. I have to be able to fit a car in my garage. Well, hey, no problem... I deisgned all of my workbenches to be fold-away. The table saw is on casters. In about a half hour I had my car back in there.

Problem #2 from management, I cannot use their power in the garage and I cannot run a cord across the hall to my apartment because it's a liability hazard for them--someone could trip. Well, I figure... they always have these carpet cleaning vans coming around stringing their hoses and power cords across the hallways... aren't those the same kinds of hazards? Why should they get away with it and not me? Can't i put a carpet or a piece of hardboard over the cord to build a ramp up and over it and thus no longer make it a tripping hazard?

The only other problem I have to deal with is the "nuisence" factor. But my friends tell me they can't even hear my table saw from within my own apartment, which simply has a hall corridor separating it from the garage. The really loud machines are the router and miter saw. I know I can do without those for the most part & use hand tools for the rest.

The management company clearly stated to me that if they got another coimplaint from a neighbor they would send me a letter and ask me to move out.

I can't give up my hobby!

I was thinking about writing a letter to everyone in my building and explaining the situation and trying to be reasonable with them. Seeing if I could maybe confine my saw use to a period between 10am and 1pm during the weekdays, presuably when they'd all be at work and not bothered by the noice anyway (I admit I HAVE been working in the evenings around dinner time on the week days just after I get off work myself).

Does anybody think this is a good idea? I hesitate to go as far as knocking on doors... some people might be put off by direct confrontation, right?

I really don't know, but I am determined to find a happy solution to the problem.

Does anybody have any ideas or thoughts?

Really appreciate it.

-Jason Hatlelid

[ROY DICK]

Move and next time check before you sign a lease.
Most apartments don't allow that type of thing.

Roy

[Rick Hubbard]

Hi Jason


Reading about your predicament makes me think about an innovative solution I saw for a similar problem encountered by military personnel back in the late 60’s.

While in transit between permanent duty assignments I was stationed at Fort Lewis Washington for a few weeks. There I became acquainted with a permanent duty guy who invited me out to his “shop” somewhere off post. What I saw was pretty intriguing: two retired GI’s had built 10 (or 12) adjoining “shops” (roughly 12X20) that they rented out to woodworkers. The setup was kind of like the little self-storage facilities you see these days. The “shops” were arranged in a U shape with two groups of 5 (or 6) of the units facing and a large common area they called the “paint shed” at the closed end of the U. The open end of the you was enclosed with a chain-link fence with a drive-through gate.

I was only there one time but I thought it was a heck of a deal for folks who lived in a situation where they couldn’t have their own shop. I wonder if anybody in your area might have a similar set up?

For the sake of pure nostalgia, I may as well mention that the rent on these shops was a princely $22 per month. Also, as a matter of note, I might as well point out that the real center of attention at this place (at least the day I was there) was a tarp in the paint shed that covered a full pallet of Schlitz beer that could be had for 15 cents a can. Also, Marijuana was $7 a lid, but the music was free.

Rick

[Denny Rice]

Check your local High school in your hometown. After I graduated H.S. and could not afford my own wood shop, the local H.S. offered a wood shop class as a night school class for adults. I know this idea might limit you on the number of hours you can work at your craft, but usually you can buy the lumber you need to finish your project at very reduced prices since most H.S. buy rough 1" stock.The last class I ever took was very reasonable and it met 3 day a week. Just a thought.

[Mark Fogleman]

Tough situation! Sorry to hear this. Had you just sawn a few 2X4s or screwed a box together that's one thing or somehow been able to do it in the closed garage maybe. But a full blown project with sawdust flying around that might cause Cancer and sharp spinning steel blades ready to come off and cut somebody's head off (see how a nervous (crazy?) neighbor might think about your hobby?) probably violates some clause in your lease that prevents you from doing something that creates a nuisance or prevents access or some other legal mumbo jumbo. They got you by the short ones and I would beg for space from a friend's shop to finish this project. Time to switch to something you can do inside like stamp collecting :eek: or pen turning or start using hand tools with the door closed. We had an apartment with 2 bathrooms when we were first starting out 35 years ago. I commandeered the 2nd unused bathroom. Took a few pieces of 3/4 ply and 2X4s, removed the spigots and made a nice covers over the tub and sink for work benches. We were in an end unit and I worked nights so no noise issues. But I mostly used handtools, Mattel Powershop (don't laugh... it worked great for small turning/disc sanding and scrollsawing projects), shopvac, drill, jigsaw and a sander were my only power tools. Made some nice small projects and RC planes.

[David Schmaus]

I feel your pain. It sounds like something I would of tried in my early 20's. Everyone has given good advise. If you really like woodworking and do not want to go 100% hand tools you should move.

On a different note... The "man" is not getting you down. A business is protecting its assets.... Now step up, weigh your options and make an educated decision.

[Prashun Patel]

I think you've been lucky all this while.

If you really want to do this, then I think you'd need to get a petition to define 'acceptable working hours', and then you'd need to get the bylaws amended.

As for the power issue, that can't be solved with a petition. You'd need to talk to the landlord about adding a dedicated power line in the garage - that you'd pay for. To incentivize him, you can offer to pay (in $$ or in kind) for something else that requires maintenance/repair.

Basically, you need to do some homework on the law, and then try to work with your landlord to be flexible where permissible.

[Dan Friedrichs]

I can see them asking you not to run an extension cord across the hall, but I doubt they have any standing to tell you what you can plug in to the garage outlets.

[Bruce Page]

Even if you get total buy in from the other tenets you will always be at the mercy of your landlord. I agree with the others, it’s time to move. Look for a house to rent in an older neighborhood (less covenant restrictions), and be done with it.

Welcome to SMC

[Mitchell Andrus]

I'd tell you to stop if I were in charge, you are on private property that is not your own. Now that they know about what you're doing they are responsible if you have a kick-back that hits an old lady walking in the driveway. Woodworking in inherently dangerous and everyone knows it.

The carpet cleaners have their own insurance and likely have named the owners as 'named insured'. If their insurance goes up one penny you'll pay the increase, guaranteed.
.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Yea, they can. If he's overloaded once, he can do it again. That's a fire hazard and no judge, tenancy or otherwise, will turn that around.
.

[Wayne Sparkman]

Adding to Heidrick's post above:

Seventh: Post pics of that cherry dresser! And you don't have to wait till its finished necessarily.

[Rick Prosser]

Jason, you are just not in a good position on this. Even if you spent a lot of time and effort into petitions, agreements, understandings, etc - it would only take one complaint or concern to put you on the street.

If you want to live there, then you need to find another option to continue your hobby. There were some good suggestions posted on places that you might be able to use/rent. Maybe a woodworking club in the area could help out? Rather than forcing the issue with the landlord, put the effort into an off site solution.

Good luck and welcome to the Creek!

[Paul Johnstone]

I feel bad for you.

The sad thing is, the person that complained to the landlord is probably one of the neighbors that told you everything is ok. Some people are too cowardly to talk to someone face to face, but as soon as they get the anonymous method of complaining to the landlord or homeowner's association, they will do it for every little thing.

It is safe to assume that the smallest thing will cause this neighbor to complain again. If you do go with handtools, keep the garage totally closed. Someone will see you handsanding or whatever and file another complaint.

I think the best options are to move or find a space to rent out. Someone I knew rented a small storage unit that had power. Granted they did not do woodworking, but they did a lot of equipment repairs there. It's worth looking around and seeing what you can find.

Good luck, I hope you can finish your project.

[Vince Shriver]

What Rick said! Being a landlord myself, I'd have you bring your powertool activities to an immediate stop or receive a 3-day notice to quit (read: move out). Sorry, my friend, but there isn't much room for sympathy here; you're just in a bad situation.

[Scott Hildenbrand]

I had heard someone once say about renting a large storage unit to set up shop in. That's indeed an option, though you will have to check and see what the specs are for the power outlets. Often there are at least two outlets and a minimum of one light.

It's an option.. Not really a great one, but an option none the less.

The only other good option for a quick relocation is being able to find some warehouse or shop space to rent. I'd be concerned about the security of your tools, to say the least. But that's just something you'd have to look into.

[Doug Mason]

Move! In an apartment setting, it is not fair to the nieghbors. Period.

It's like the mechanic who always has five cars outside and oil stains everywhere; or the day-care provider with people/traffic and noise; or a chemist who set's up a lab. None of these should be done in a community setting (i.e., an apartment complex).

But hand tools would work............

[Paul Atkins]

Could you do something for the apt. complex or the landlord that needs a woodworker? Having access to some repair facilities might be worth it to him to let you be. I'm sure there are lots of things that need fixing around. Just another perspective.

[Rod Sheridan]

Could you do something for the apt. complex or the landlord that needs a woodworker? Having access to some repair facilities might be worth it to him to let you be. I'm sure there are lots of things that need fixing around. Just another perspective.

Sounds like a great idea, however it would pose a problem for the landlord.

They would now be documenting that they selectively enforce aspects of the lease agreement.

Regards, Rod.

[Lee Schierer]

You can possibly get around the management company by personally contacting all the neighbors and getting them to sign a document that says they don't mind the noise and that you will confine your work to certain hours only. I did that once for a Church project to get around some poor zoning ordinances. The zoning said we had to build a "protective screen between the church parking area and the neighbors. The neighbors objected to having the screen as it would interfere with their view of the area so the town government allowed the variance. I had signed letters from each neighbor specifically requesting that the "protective screen" not be built.

If even one neighbor refuses to sign, then I would start looking at hand tool work only or for a new place to live. With the housing market where it is in most locations you should be able to pick up a private house pretty easily.

[Stephen Edwards]

If at all possible, I would move. And, I would do so as quickly as possible. As Lee pointed out, now is a good time to find a house, either as a renter or a buyer....in most places.

I feel for you. At the same time, I'm VERY thankful that I live in an area with no such rules and restrictions. I also realize that everyone can't live in the boonies, nor do they want to.

I hope that your situation improves so that you can continue your woodworking journey.

Welcome to the Creek and Best Wishes!

[Cary Falk]

I would have to agree that an apartment is no place for woodworking with power tools.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

I would have your "friendly" neighbors sign something indicating they cannot hear your work, and have no issue with it. That beats the generic "we received a complaint" statement, unless they can produce a name.

If they produce a name, file a complaint every time that person's car so much as backfires. :rolleyes:

Aside from all that, read the lease carefully. if there's no specific statement about not doing something like it, then push back. But - if there are vague statements about safety and the such, then you might be S.O.L. In that case, I agree with 2 of the options posed here - go 100% neander, or move.

If the major issue is the extension cord, then turn your bedroom into a workshop. I mean, come on - if your'e serious, then get serious! ;)

[Michael Prisbylla]

I'm a renter, too so I feel your pain. I've had 2 solutions that have worked for me over the years. First, I turned my living room into a shop. I didn't have many tools at the time, but it worked for me. The landlord never got wise. I always paid my rent on time and that was all he cared about. My current solution (after losing my house/shop to my evil ex-wife) is renting a shop. It's in a buddy's basement and it's allowed to be there in exchange for letting him use my tools. He knows not to touch stuff that I haven't trained him on, and (fortunately) he uses it very little. Perhaps you could find/afford a small space in a warehouse or something like that to set up a shop. One thing's for sure, though, you're on your landlord's bad side and that isn't going to change anytime soon. I keep some of my tools stashed in the basemant of my building (I'm a self employed home improvement contractor) and my landlord uses me for building maintenance, so we're OK.

Just some food for thought.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Remington 700 ?

This may be just the excuse you need to become a true dyed in the wool Neander.
Lots of people have taken to cordless tools because of living conditions with neighbors.
Less dust too.

[Rich Neighbarger]

Rent a storage unit and work out of it.

[Lloyd James]

Hi, I have only one suggestion that may help you. See if there is any woodworking clubs in your town or nearby city. Go to a meeting and tell everyone there, your predicament. If I know retired woodworkers, I think there would be someone there to offer you to finish your project at his place. Most woodworkers love to show you all their favorite tools and how they made some of their projects. Good Luck and have fun at what you are doing.

[Bruce Wrenn]

The one thing I haven't seen is WHAT DOES YOUR LEASE say about use of YOUR garage? If the activities you describe aren't specifically prohibited, then tough on the management. As for noise, when your neighbor cranks his car up, and you are sleeping, isn't that a nuisance? Check and see exactly what the rules are on noise (hours, and levels.) As for complaints, ask specifically about EXACT forms, or methods for filing complaints. (Can I complain about you because I don't like the college sticker on your car, or who you date ?) You probably have a right to know who complained. Because garage units are separate, call city inspection office and see if each should have it's own breaker for garage door opener. They most likely have to. This would be a plus for management company to find out. They would really love you for this. But be prepared to move at the end of your lease, in any case. If they want you out early, and you aren't vilolating any WRITTEN parts of your lease, remind they that they are BREAKING your lease, and you are due compensation.

[Ken Shoemaker]

Jason,

Where do you live????

I wonder if a "creeker" could lend assistance ( READ: shop time) in finishing this project.

Of course you'd have to deal with the problem after that.

Good Luck.... Ken

[Anthony Anderson]

Jason,

Where do you live????

I wonder if a "creeker" could lend assistance ( READ: shop time) in finishing this project.

Of course you'd have to deal with the problem after that.

Good Luck.... Ken

Ken I was thinking the same. Give us the area/state/city (you decide), and Creekers can respond if they wish to donate some shop time to you, so you can finish your dresser.

[Bill Arnold]

I've checked in on this thread a couple of times today. The only thing that really matters is whether it's against the rules. By extension, if you get enough people to sign a petition to allow you to run red lights, can you just go like crazy all over town?

I"m sorry if this seems a bit "out there". Rules are made for a reason. Live with it! :cool:

[Stephen Edwards]

The one thing I haven't seen is WHAT DOES YOUR LEASE say about use of YOUR garage? If the activities you describe aren't specifically prohibited, then tough on the management. As for noise, when your neighbor cranks his car up, and you are sleeping, isn't that a nuisance? Check and see exactly what the rules are on noise (hours, and levels.) As for complaints, ask specifically about EXACT forms, or methods for filing complaints. (Can I complain about you because I don't like the college sticker on your car, or who you date ?) You probably have a right to know who complained. Because garage units are separate, call city inspection office and see if each should have it's own breaker for garage door opener. They most likely have to. This would be a plus for management company to find out. They would really love you for this. But be prepared to move at the end of your lease, in any case. If they want you out early, and you aren't vilolating any WRITTEN parts of your lease, remind they that they are BREAKING your lease, and you are due compensation.


Agreed, this is good, sound advice.

[Mitchell Andrus]

The lease very likely calls the garage a garage, parking garage or storage area. The apartment is likely referred to as a 'dwelling' or 'domicile' for legal reasons having to do with truth in renting laws which exempts commercial spaces.

Bruce, you're gearing up for battle that cannot be won by the tenant. I've been in the landlord seat for 30 years. Tenants never win when it comes to code violations, rule violations or just plain 'ol common sense violations. And I never get a warm and cozy feeling when someone tells me my property is his - shove off. It isn't his, it's the landlord's, period. Separate breakers on each door.... so? I'll fix it and you still don't get your shop space in my garage.

If the landlord wants 'cease and desist' orders, they'll happen overnight separately from each the zoning officer, dept. of health, construction official and a judge and it will take til the end of the lease to get it lifted. A $imple noi$e $tudy by an expert can take 6 month$ - at the tenant'$ expence. Next comes a $tudy of airborne du$t and the impact to the other tenants. Safety wins, argument over.

Not every condition of the relationship is in every lease, nor need it be as a lease can be binding even if verbal. Leases never spell out every law of the land, yet laws all come to bear on both parties, and leases usually include "no section of this lease shall serve to amend or nullify any law...." or sim. It remains illegal to sell drugs on premises even if its not prohibited in writing in the lease, right?

I suggest the tenant reach a freindly compromise, find a hobby space or move out. War-like tactics and entrenchment won't do it.
.

[Mike OMelia]

Move. And not to some condo. You are fighting a battle you cannot win.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

Could you do something for the apt. complex or the landlord that needs a woodworker? Having access to some repair facilities might be worth it to him to let you be. I'm sure there are lots of things that need fixing around. Just another perspective.

Speaking from the perspective of a landlord, that's no longer possible in today's society.
In order to perform work for the complex, the OP would have to obtain insurance, be bonded, file workman's comp, etc, etc, etc.

We won't allow anyone to perform any work on any of our properties unless they have proof of insurance & for tax purposes - present a proper invoice for work completed.

We even had to threaten my brother in law with legal action to force him to quit doing odd jobs around the house our niece rents from us.

Both the insurance companies and the IRS are extreme sticklers when it comes to things.

Bruce,

The one thing I haven't seen is WHAT DOES YOUR LEASE say about use of YOUR garage?
It's not his garage, it belongs to the owner of the property. As a tenant, you have zero rights in that respect. Any activity which puts the property in danger or modifies it in any way is prohibited, unless specific written permission is granted.
Laws, as they are written in the USA, are very heavily slanted towards the landlord.
(The main reason for this is that the people that "write the laws", have significant real estate holdings.)

[Mitchell Andrus]

Laws, as they are written in the USA, are very heavily slanted towards the landlord.
(The main reason for this is that the people that "write the laws", have significant real estate holdings.)

No, the main reason isn't because of the lawmakers' "holdings". That's just dumb. Where'd you get this from?

The laws are as they are because the landlord is legally responsible even when a tenant is creating a violation or unsafe condition. Fire safety issues such as failure to keep egress pathways (hallways) and alleys clear, are sent to the landlord not the tenant. The landlord forwards these to the tenant. The landlord is fined after 30 days, not the tenant. That's not slanted towards the landlord, that's just the way it is. The law then allows the landlord to seek redress against the offender - that seems fair, no? Not slanted, just fair.

Sit in tenancy court and you'll see that laws are not 'slanted' towards the landlord. Try and evict a family with kids and you'll see the 'slant' isn't towards the landlords or the lawmakers either.
.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I don't think it would even matter if all your neighbors said it was OK. As stated earlier, it sounds like a liability and hazard issue: A cord traversing a hallway is a trip hazard; A cord traversing a door arch is a electrical hazard; An open door between the garage and the living area breaches the fire zone.

I hope you can find a new place for your hobby. Unfortunately, our woodworking hobby requires lots of room, power, noise control and dust control. But, stamp collecting just doesn't seem to compare. :)

Good luck,
-Jeff :)

[Peter Quinn]

I'm all about personal freedoms, but you haven't got a leg to stand on in this argument. You live in a tight residential situation, you have no business doing what you are doing there, you might have similar problems even if you OWNED a free standing home with its own garage. Make enough noise and dust to negatively affect the quality of your neighbors lives and they will make you feel it, and rightly so. If my neighbors were running tools that kept my kids up at nap times or night and disturbed my peace they would hear from me directly, and I do this for a living. Oh, and you don't OWN the property, so there are serious limits to what you are allowed to do. Move into one of those numerous "Gated" communities that abound in this country and you will also be seriously limited in terms of what you can do.

It doesn't matter who complained or why. Don't take this personally and expend good energy on a battle you can not win. If you love wood working, focus your positive energy to develop a wood working space that is appropriate and works for you. This may involve some major changes like moving, possibly to a remote hill top in Montana where frequent power outages force you to the Neander realm eventually.:D My point is take this as a life lesson and move forward to keep wood working a positive part of your life, but do it with respect for your community.

My shop for instance is in a basement 8' below ground with double windows and 12" thick walls. I have adequate dust collection and don't spray solvent based anything. I live in a tight residential community of free standing homes on .25 acre lots, and most of my neighbors aren't even aware that I have wood working equipment in my home. It might have been easier to set up in my free standing garage on some levels, but that would piss off just about everyone in my direct vicinity at some point. Good luck in your efforts and keep looking forward. The only "Man" that can hold you down is you.

[Dan Karachio]

As a former apartment dweller with neighbors from hell (Sid and Nancy junior and more), I'm sorry, but you can't do this. People have a right to a reasonable amount of noise, they are paying for it, and power tools don't fit the bill. Say I lived next door to you and played drums and/or wanted to have my metal band rehearse in my garage? It's not "the man" here at all, its being a good neighbor.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

Sit in tenancy court and you'll see that laws are not 'slanted' towards the landlord. Try and evict a family with kids and you'll see the 'slant' isn't towards the landlords or the lawmakers either.
Been there/done that.
I'll stand by my earlier statement.
The laws are heavily in favor of the property owner.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Hello,

Been there/done that.
I'll stand by my earlier statement.
The laws are heavily in favor of the property owner.


I'd like to know which laws do you think are too heavily slanted. Which one(s) bit you so badly? Perhaps you didn't have a good lawyer. Dunno, maybe your state really hates renters?
.

[Mike OMelia]

I'd like to know which laws do you think are too heavily slanted. Which one(s) bit you so badly? Perhaps you didn't have a good lawyer. Dunno, maybe your state really hates renters?
.

Mitchell is correct. Try and evict ANYONE under lease and watch how it plays out. By the time it is over, the landlord will be lucky to still have drywall on the walls. 'Nuff said.

Mike

[fRED mCnEILL]

"I was thinking about writing a letter to everyone in my building and explaining the situation and trying to be reasonable with them. Seeing if I could maybe confine my saw use to a period between 10am and 1pm during the weekdays, presuably when they'd all be at work and not bothered by the noice anyway (I admit I HAVE been working in the evenings around dinner time on the week days just after I get off work myself)."

I would do this. You have nothing to lose. If you manage to get ALL to agree then you can negotiate with the landlord. As a tenant you do have certain "rights" as well.(I am also a landlord). If your not bothering anybody why should you quit. But a big problem will probably be the power situation.

Good luck

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

Try and evict ANYONE under lease and watch how it plays out. By the time it is over, the landlord will be lucky to still have drywall on the walls. 'Nuff said.
I'm sorry - but - that's simply BS.

As landlords we work with and follow HUD guidelines to the T.
Eviction is a step of last resort when all else has failed.

I seriously don't know where you people come up with your information - possibly internet hype? - possibly heard it from someone that heard it from someone that heard it from someone? - judge Judy?

The simple fact of the matter is that landlord/tenant laws date back to precolonial times. The laws are written to favor the property owner;protect the property owner & the properties.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I'm sorry - but - that's simply BS. As landlords we work with and follow HUD guidelines to the T.

Eviction is a step of last resort when all else has failed.

The simple fact of the matter is that landlord/tenant laws date back to precolonial times. The laws are written to favor the property owner;protect the property owner & the properties.


Yes, we are all protected by some old, old laws. My home-owning, non-landlord neighbors like it that way. That isn't slant, they're just laws that protect our 'Rights in Property' (a defined term, Google it).

The laws of your state are on the internet. Post the ones you think most support your position; that laws are slanted against the tenant, otherwise I'll assume you don't know what you're talking about.


"As landlords we work with and follow HUD guidelines to the T."

Actually, HUD is more about anti-discrimination and low-income housing than most anything else, but since you mentioned them.... Perhaps you can find the HUD guideline that you don't like for it's slant towards landlords and post it here to support your position.

http://www.hud.gov/offices/fheo/FHLaws/yourrights.cfm

The "your rights" in the above link refers to tenant's rights, not the property owners', BTW.


"Eviction is a step of last resort when all else has failed."

Correct - You prove my position. Nothing about THAT is slanted towards the landlord.

Here you go... Cite two laws that support your position (that laws are unduly written in favor of property owners against the interests of the average citizen) and perhaps we'll continue our discussion. Til then, if you don't obey the laws and rules and a judge decides the law applies or the rule is justified, a judge can kick you out. Pretty simple concept, I don't know why you think that's a bad thing.



I suggest that this ridiculous thread be closed. If you have a valid response with citations supporting you position, start a new thread in the OT section where it belongs.
.

[Richard Wolf]

What's amazing is, Jason comes on here to bitch and moan about how he not being treated right and looking for a place to vent. He has not signed on since the original post. Maybe the man really did get him down!!

Richard

[Bill Arnold]

What's amazing is, Jason comes on here to bitch and moan about how he not being treated right and looking for a place to vent. He has not signed on since the original post. Maybe the man really did get him down!!

Richard

If so, then so be it!

The thing that gets me more than "the man" is the people who think the rules shouldn't apply to them. Or that they should be able to twist the rules to suit themselves. Everyone else in Jason's complex has to abide by the same rules. How many others are operating equipment like him? How many are rebuilding cars, etc.? Wonder how he'd feel if his neighbor decided to work on his motorcycle at midnight? :eek::eek::eek:

I'm not un-sympathetic to someone in Jason's situation, believe me. But, you do what you have to do. ;)

[Scott Hildenbrand]

The thing that gets me more than "the man" is the people who think the rules shouldn't apply to them. Or that they should be able to twist the rules to suit themselves.


I've got to agree with this.. People move into places with a a homeowners association or board that governs them and never bother with learning the rules before signing their agreement.

This one forum I post on from time to time about keeping chickens.. It's shocking the number of people who want to skirt the rules and "hide" their chickens because it's against either the association or local bylaws. Even to the point of keeping them in basements and garages.

At any rate.. You move into a complex, a sub division or even city municipalities and you agree to follow the rules set before you. If you don't like the rules, you move to the county where you have more freedoms.. Not unlimited, but more.

[roman fedyk]

What's amazing is, Jason comes on here to bitch and moan about how he not being treated right and looking for a place to vent. He has not signed on since the original post. Maybe the man really did get him down!!

Richard

He probably blew the circuit breaker and can't log in.

[Stephen Edwards]

I've got to agree with this.. People move into places with a a homeowners association or board that governs them and never bother with learning the rules before signing their agreement.

This one forum I post on from time to time about keeping chickens.. It's shocking the number of people who want to skirt the rules and "hide" their chickens because it's against either the association or local bylaws. Even to the point of keeping them in basements and garages.

At any rate.. You move into a complex, a sub division or even city municipalities and you agree to follow the rules set before you. If you don't like the rules, you move to the county where you have more freedoms.. Not unlimited, but more.

I suppose people live in different environments because of their personal preferences. As for me, I feel blessed and am very thankful to live in a rural county with very few "rules" in terms of zoning, etc. If I want to build a chicken coop, a new shed, a new house, remodel my house, have goats in my yard, that's fine here. If you build a new house or a new building there are only two permits required: electrical and septic. If you want to build a barn, shed or shop with electrical service you don't need a septic system.

When I started converting part of the 100+ years old barn that was on this place when I bought it, I applied for the electrical permit. Only thing required is the service panel, one outlet and one light. When the inspector comes out and passes it, you're free to do whatever you wish after that point. And, it's perfectly legal. You're free to be stupid here if you want to! Most folks that I know around here build things "up to code" or better, even though we're not required to do so.

I fully realize that many folks want to live in places where there are home owners or tenants rules and bylaws. I even understand their reasoning. Some folks are more comfortable in a controlled environment with lots of rules. I'm not one of those people. So, I searched for and found a place where you can do whatever you want on your property in regards to woodworking and chickens!

So can my neighbors. We can do whatever we wish to do on our own property, as long as we're not in violation of state or federal laws, of course. The really cool thing about my neighborhood is that most folks, even with our nearly unlimited freedom to do whatever we want to do on our property, are considerate of our neighbors.

I'll have to agree with the other folks who have suggested that the OP move, if possible. Try to find a place where no one is going to hassle you about your woodworking hobby. Many woodworkers live in towns and cities. I wish you the very best in finding a place where you can continue to pursue your hobby in the town where you live.

[Dennis McGarry]

Simply put, MOVE.

An apartment is no place for a workshop of any kind. To many issues. Period.

Find a nice house, with a basement or a garage, and a GOOD LANDLORD, one that actually still looks at the lease as a relationship that is mutually beneficial to both parties. Make sure that you disclose your intentions ahead of time and suggest a hold harmless and indemnify clause be included in the lease. Then speak with your ins. agent and get insured..

[Bruce Wrenn]

Not every condition of the relationship is in every lease, nor need it be as a lease can be binding even if verbal. Leases never spell out every law of the land, yet laws all come to bear on both parties, and leases usually include "no section of this lease shall serve to amend or nullify any law...." or sim. It remains illegal to sell drugs on premises even if its not prohibited in writing in the lease, right?

.Here in NC. leases have to be in writing, and if for more than three years, recorded at the courthouse. All exclude permission to violate any laws, or ordinances. By accepting payment of rent, you convey to tennent the right to use of property, as specified in the terms of the lease. As for garages, each is considered a separate structure, with two hour fire walls in between. One city here has a law that if cops are called to the property for any reason, more than three times in six months. it's the land lord's fault. Guess who is accessed a penelty by the courts. Oh yeah, I was a real estate broker for over 25 years, and still own rental property.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

The laws of your state are on the internet. Post the ones you think most support your position; that laws are slanted against the tenant, otherwise I'll assume you don't know what you're talking about.
Why do you incorrectly assume and jump to the conclusion that I'm against the landlord slant?

I'm actually 100% for it, since it protects my investment.


I suggest that this ridiculous thread be closed. If you have a valid response with citations supporting you position, start a new thread in the OT section where it belongs
Not hardly...
I'm not only through with this thread, I believe I'm through with this board and it's narrow minded blow hards that carry on and on.
Have a nice life.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Hello,

I'm sorry - but - that's simply BS.

As landlords we work with and follow HUD guidelines to the T.
Eviction is a step of last resort when all else has failed.

I seriously don't know where you people come up with your information - possibly internet hype? - possibly heard it from someone that heard it from someone that heard it from someone? - judge Judy?

The simple fact of the matter is that landlord/tenant laws date back to precolonial times. The laws are written to favor the property owner;protect the property owner & the properties.

I agree with this and if you go to court as the tenant with that attitude I have seen first hand how a judge can set you right.

(Normally when you go to court you ask for more than what you want so that you can compromise, last person we took to court had the attitude of I have a lease I can do whatever I want and told the judge he wasn't willing to compromise. The judge gave us everything we were asking for (which was more than we were hoping for)).