Your technique on small boxes

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Hi, I got some white oak pieces about 4" in diameter and roughed them out using a Sorby Swan neck scraper. I first drilled a hole to the bottom of the piece. I'm thinking of letting it dry in a paper bag and then return. I'd like to know what you do here. Do you let them dry or just turn it to finish? What do you use for hollowing? This is just a 4" diam x 4" box and I was just wondering about other methods for this. Thanks!

[Bill Bulloch]

When I am turning a green hollow form from end grain and will be taking the entire pith out (hollowing from the bottom and drilling a hole in the top), I go ahead and turn it to the finished form. With the pith out, you should not get much distortion, if any. Might need to wait till it drys to apply the finish.

[Bill Bulloch]

I'm sorry, you are talking about a box, and I addressed a hollow form. Where is my mind today? For a box, I rough turn and bag it to dry.

By-the-way, Oak likes to crack, so make several and one good one might survive. Good Luck

[Bernie Weishapl]

Alan when I do small lidded boxes I use dry wood. If you use green wood or wood that has some moisture it will warp some to a lot. Then your lid is not going to fit at all. I had one of my first ones I was so proud of had the lid get stuff when it moved and it is still there. There is no way to get if off without some damage. If I do use green wood I rough it out and leave it pretty thick and then soak it in DNA, wrap, cut the ends open and let dry.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Bill that's a good idea about making more than one; I was thinking of that but got too tired. So more tomorrow. Bernie, what do you mean by "cut the ends open"? Are you opening the bag? How long do you let it soak in DNA? Thanks guys!

[Reed Gray]

When I am making boxes, even if I start with dry wood, I will rough turn it, then let it sit for a week or two. Even dry wood will 'adjust' to having mass removed. I used to use a forstner bit for starting, but now use a small spear point tool, or just my McNaughton hollowers (the straighter ones). They are faster than a forstner bit, and there is no set up. You can use a hand held, or in a handle, drill bit as well for depth.

robo hippy

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I use the Benjamins Best bowl scrapers from PSI to finish up the box insides. It can make the sides pretty straight, since they have a long side bevel. I guess you could grind any scraper with a long side grind. I rough hollow with a standard bowl gouge. Sometimes I use a Hunter Carbide, if the box is deep. IMO 2" is small, 4" is rather large....

Green, I rough turn and let it dry. I put them in a brown bag with some shavings (a lot) and close the bag. If you don't let it dry, like the others said, they warp and your top will not fit. I've also had "kiln dried" wood warp after finishing, so maybe a week before final finish turning dry wood would help.

[David E Keller]

Richard Raffan has a video on turning boxes that I found very helpful. I follow his lead... rough out the shape and create a tenon on both ends of the blank then part into two pieces. The two pieces are then rough hollowed leaving extra thickness to allow for turning out any distortion that occurs during drying. The lid and base blanks are then taped tenon to tenon which allows air to circulate through the rough hollowed openings. He dates the pieces and lets them air dry, but DNA method could also be used. I've got about thirty or forty roughed out boxes drying right now. I've noticed that some oak and pistache blanks have cracked and will likely end up in the burn pile... maybe they wouldn't have cracked with a DNA soak first. Pear, maple, and sycamore seem to be doing alright.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Lots of great ideas here. Never thought about kiln dried wood moving but it makes sense. David I'd be interested in your hollowing technique too. What do you use?

Scraping oak is very tedious especially knowing some will crack. Roughing out and bagging is the way I'm going to do this unless I want to experiment with DNA. I tried that on bowls but you need a lot of DNA for that to work. Smaller vessels would better accomodate that method.

THANKS ALL FOR THE GREAT IDEAS!!!! I will figure this out. :confused::D

[Rick Hutcheson]

Guess I just have better luck here. I turn boxes from green wood start to finish. I turn them to under a 1/4" and make sure the bottoms are also turned at least that thin. I have never taken the pith out, I leave it as part of the box. I turn them to fit like I want them to fit or just maybe a little bit loose. Then sand and finish. Set them aside with the lid on the box closed up.
The next day they may not open because of the drying and wood shrinking at different rates. But then the next day, 2 days after turning, they open just like the way they did when I turned them. If they are a little tight a light sanding of the inside of the rim makes them fit perfect.
I may loose 2% to cracking, but when you turn at a rate of 10-15 boxes a day that is not much of a loss to me.
I tried soap soak on a batch of crabapple boxes. Of the about 15 that I did 100% of them cracked beyond saving. Of the crabapple that I turned green to finish I had the normal 2% crack. I have turned over 2000 boxes this way so for me it works.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Rick, could you give a brief description on your hollowing technique. What tools do you use and what steps you go through. You sound like an expert with all the boxes you've made.

[Rick Hutcheson]

I actually do them a few different ways. I have a video on my web site that shows one way. I use that way when the grain is plain and you are not trying to line up a grain pattern between the lid and box.
http://www.scrollsaws.com/WoodLathe/woodlatheVideo.htm
Then if I want to line up grain I use a different method shown on the attached file.
http://www.scrollsaws.com/images/Lathe/SeminarBoxes.pdf

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Great site Rick. I recommend anybody who wants to do boxes to look at Rick's videos.

[Jim Underwood]

My first bit of advice would be to ditch the scraper. You're just going to torture yourself.

Get a 3/4 or 1 inch roughing gouge, sharpen it to a 40-45 degree angle, and learn to cut, not scrape. Once you learn to use that to make peeling and planing cuts on the outside, get a 3/8 spindle gouge and learn to hollow the inside with it.

You should be able to rough a simple cylindrical box within minutes of starting. With a scraper, you're just going to beat yourself to death.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

My first bit of advice would be to ditch the scraper. You're just going to torture yourself.

Get a 3/4 or 1 inch roughing gouge, sharpen it to a 40-45 degree angle, and learn to cut, not scrape. Once you learn to use that to make peeling and planing cuts on the outside, get a 3/8 spindle gouge and learn to hollow the inside with it.

You should be able to rough a simple cylindrical box within minutes of starting. With a scraper, you're just going to beat yourself to death.

Yes Jim I totally agree with you. After scraping to rough out these boxes I was looking for a better way. I've seen your method on a You Tube video but the spindle gouge for hollowing takes some time to master. Yes scraping does beat you up and it's slow. Thanks!

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I actually do them a few different ways. I have a video on my web site that shows one way. I use that way when the grain is plain and you are not trying to line up a grain pattern between the lid and box.
http://www.scrollsaws.com/WoodLathe/woodlatheVideo.htm
Then if I want to line up grain I use a different method shown on the attached file.
http://www.scrollsaws.com/images/Lathe/SeminarBoxes.pdf

Great links Rick! I just looked at the second one and it's just what I was looking for. Thanks again for all the info. Alan

[Gary Herrmann]

Alan, I seem to also remember people saying they use the easy rougher to make boxes.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

The Easy Rougher looks amazing in the videos but I wonder how it is on just end grain. Otherwise, even though it's pricey, it looks very effective at roughing blanks and other things.

[Jim Underwood]

I've tried a similar tool to an EZ rougher, and I wasn't sold on it. For my money, I like a roughing gouge.

The nice thing about gouges are that they can make a peeling cut at the same time they are making a slicing cut. Consequently gouges can remove more material than most straight bladed tools.

And I wouldn't hesitate to try a sharp 3/8 spindle gouge on endgrain. I'd venture to say it's even easier to master than the roughing gouge.

Chuck up some scrap wood with the grain running with the axis of the spindle, face off the end with a gouge, or even a sharp parting tool. Then move your tool rest so that it's running across the bed or in other words perpendicular to the grain of your stock. Ensure that the point of your spindle gouge is right near center of the piece when placed horizontally on the tool rest. Now you turn the lathe on, and with the spindle gouge's flute pointed nearly at where your head is - meaning that the cutting edge at the tip is heeled over at 45 degrees- plunge the tool tip directly into the center of the blank. You don't have to go far at first, about 1/16 to 1/8 inch, just to get the feel of it. Then sweep the tip slowly to the outside of the blank, taking off just until you reach about 1/2 from the edge.

That's all there is to it. If the gouge is sharp, it'll scrape quite a clean cut.

[Ryan Baker]

I agree that a gouge is a great way to hollow a box. A hook tool is arguably even better. I completely disagree about the scraper though. A square-end scraper can have a box hollowed out faster than any gouge. And it shouldn't "beat you up" either, unless you are hanging really far over the rest (which is a problem for the gouge too). If the scraper isn't hogging the wood out, you are doing something wrong. Of course, it will not give you the finish you would get with a cutting tool.

[David E Keller]

Alan,

I rough the outside with a roughing gouge the clean up the surface with a skew. I turn the tenons with a skew by peel cutting like R Raffan shows in his video. I part the cylinder into lid and base sections. I used a spindle gouge to hollow the lid which is already in the chuck and sometimes clean it up or square the walls with a scraper. Then I mount the base section in the chuck and rough hollow it just like the lid. I pretty much follow Raffan's video techniques to the letter.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

I've tried a similar tool to an EZ rougher, and I wasn't sold on it. For my money, I like a roughing gouge.

The nice thing about gouges are that they can make a peeling cut at the same time they are making a slicing cut. Consequently gouges can remove more material than most straight bladed tools.

And I wouldn't hesitate to try a sharp 3/8 spindle gouge on endgrain. I'd venture to say it's even easier to master than the roughing gouge.

Chuck up some scrap wood with the grain running with the axis of the spindle, face off the end with a gouge, or even a sharp parting tool. Then move your tool rest so that it's running across the bed or in other words perpendicular to the grain of your stock. Ensure that the point of your spindle gouge is right near center of the piece when placed horizontally on the tool rest. Now you turn the lathe on, and with the spindle gouge's flute pointed nearly at where your head is - meaning that the cutting edge at the tip is heeled over at 45 degrees- plunge the tool tip directly into the center of the blank. You don't have to go far at first, about 1/16 to 1/8 inch, just to get the feel of it. Then sweep the tip slowly to the outside of the blank, taking off just until you reach about 1/2 from the edge.

That's all there is to it. If the gouge is sharp, it'll scrape quite a clean cut.

Thanks for the detailed description. I tried it tonight and it was working some what. I have some green white oak and it is as hard as a rock. The spindle gouge was giving me some trouble so I used my Sorby Hollow Master and it worked quite well. I still want to get better at the spindle gouge method so I'll keep at it. Appreciate the help.

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Alan,

I rough the outside with a roughing gouge the clean up the surface with a skew. I turn the tenons with a skew by peel cutting like R Raffan shows in his video. I part the cylinder into lid and base sections. I used a spindle gouge to hollow the lid which is already in the chuck and sometimes clean it up or square the walls with a scraper. Then I mount the base section in the chuck and rough hollow it just like the lid. I pretty much follow Raffan's video techniques to the letter.

Steve, Thanks for all the info. I've seen that Raffan video but it's been awhile. He does work fast doesn't he?

[Jim Underwood]

I agree that a gouge is a great way to hollow a box. A hook tool is arguably even better. I completely disagree about the scraper though. A square-end scraper can have a box hollowed out faster than any gouge. And it shouldn't "beat you up" either, unless you are hanging really far over the rest (which is a problem for the gouge too). If the scraper isn't hogging the wood out, you are doing something wrong. Of course, it will not give you the finish you would get with a cutting tool.

I must not being doing something right then. I've never had much luck with a scraper. I'd love to see how you sharpen and use the scraper.

[Ryan Baker]

I must not being doing something right then. I've never had much luck with a scraper. I'd love to see how you sharpen and use the scraper.

Nothing special about my grind. I just do it right on the grinder. The angle is somewhere in the 10-20 degree range (70-80 degree included angle). I don't (normally) do any honing or burnishing, etc.

As far as technique, I pretty much do it the same way as Richard Raffan, if you have seen any of his videos. Start with a hole in the center. Then get a square nose scraper, lean into it a bit, and send the wood flying. That will cut a path around 1/4 to 1/2 inch wide at a time down to the bottom of the box. Obviously you need to lighten up as you get close to the edge. Keep the scraper pointed down a little to avoid catches.

My scrapers are about 1/4" thick (not particularly heavy) -- maybe 3/8". If you are trying to cut deeper than say 5-6" or so, you will have it start fighting back and will either need a heavier scraper or another tool. But small boxes usually aren't bigger than that anyway.