Yet Another Table Saw Question

[Rodger Kanis]

Greetings from Maine, all!

I'm new to Sawmill Creek and to woodworking in general. I am good with tools, crafts, and such, but just now gearing up to do some woodworking. My plans include shop cabinets, router table, eventually built in bookcase and entertainment center for living room, and some bedroom furniture.

Having said all of that I need help with .... wait for it .... yes! Choosing a table saw! (I'm sure nobody saw that one coming.) :D

I bought a Ridgid portable worksite saw with the built it cart (R2410LS, I believe), but haven't used it yet. I now realize I won't need that portability and that it will most likely always be in the "up" position, and that I need more stability and accuracy. Beautiful work saw, though, and a pretty good fence for what it is!

Therefore, after doing a lot of reading from this forum, I'm probably going to return that saw and buy some type of contractor or hybrid saw. Cabinet saws are great, but I am not looking for a restoration project, and I can't justify a new Unisaw!

Specs:
-Space is not an issue
-Electrical needs are not an issue, as I can run either voltage
-Used or new is not an issue, only the condition is
-Right now cutting mostly 3/4 and thinner ply, ripping 4/4 harwood
-I am a weekend hobbyist, not a production shop
-Not afraid to pay for quality, but I often fall into "cost creep" "well, for ONLY THIS much more" :o
-Reasonable dust collection with a Ridgid shop vac and cyclone bucket
-Timeframe: One month or more, no huge hurry (tough to restrain myself, though!)
-Budget: Already have $400 into the other saw, willing to drop another $300 - $400 for a total of around $800

Some local finds, IF still available:


Delta Hybrid 36-714 (circa 2007), T2 fence, router table extension from Rockler (wood), tenonning jig, wood mobile base $675
JET 708482K JPS-10 Left tilt 1 3/4 HP, cast iron wings, 30" ProShop Fence, enclosed cabinet, "used two seasons" $600
JET 708781k sliding table, 1 3/4 hp, original fence, mobile base, "minimal hours use" $1000 / obo (probably overkill...)

What are your thoughts on these? Any others new you'd throw in? Please RANK them, as the availability of the above isn't guaranteed. The one reservation I have about the inevitable Grizzly suggestions I'll receive is the heavy shipping cost and the fact that I can't see it before I buy it.

Remember, I'd like to stay at or below $800, but can stray if there is an overwhelming reason. That's less money I have for other things, although I already have basic drill press, 6" jointer, thickness planer, and other tools.

Thank you for chiming in!

[Rodger Kanis]

PS: I looked into the Craftsman 22124 that seems to be highly regarded on this forum, but it's still selling for $959 at the moment!

The 22114 just doesn't measure up in my mind, but I'm open to differing viewpoints.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Roger, my preference would be for the sliding Jet if it's in good condition.

Don't under estimate the value of being able to cross cut plywood square.

Regards, Rod.

[Tom Winship]

I understand the uneasiness about buying Grizz without seeing it. But as far as the heavy shipping costs, I have noticed they either have free shipping or significant discounts on a lot of their TS's now. I had major concerns when I bought the first tool from them about a year ago, however, after DP, TS, BS, and DC, I have had no bad experiences with them. Also by going to their specification/owner's manual pages on their products, what you get is pretty close to what you imagine.

[Chuck Isaacson]

Like someone mentioned before me, take a look at Grizzly. They are having some really good sales right now. Look at the G0123 (http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Table-Saw-3-HP-Single-Phase-220V-Left-Tilt/G1023SL), a 3HP cabinet saw, or the G0478 (http://www.grizzly.com/products/2-HP-Hybrid-Cabinet-Saw/G0478), a nice hybrid, or the G0661 (http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-2-HP-Contractor-Style-Table-Saw-with-Riving-Knife/G0661), a solid cast-iron contractors saw with a riving knife. All of them are 220V, and the G0661 is also 110V. Another one to look at is the Ridgid 5411. People have had a lot of good things to say about that saw. It does have a granite top. People seem to like them. Just have to be careful with your miter gauge. Good luck with your decision.

Chuck

[Cliff Holmes]

The one reservation I have about the inevitable Grizzly suggestions I'll receive is the heavy shipping cost and the fact that I can't see it before I buy it.

Roger,

I was also very nervous about ordering a tablesaw sight-unseen. I spent many hours playing with various saws at Woodcraft and wondering how the Grizzly stacked up quality-wise. Finally, based on the comments on places like SC and a nice sale by Grizzly, I ordered a G1023SL.

And boy, was I ever pleased. One thing that I really liked about the Powermatic TS was the smoothness of the controls, which the Jet and Steel City saws didn't even come close. The Grizzly, however, came pretty close and was definitely a large step above Jet/SC. In terms of parallelism, table flatness, accuracy, the Grizzly was as perfect as you could expect. The fence was a bit less smooth than the PM but (again) better than Jet/SC.

There are some things I'd change about the Grizzly if I could. It's a little thing, but I really like the handwheels on the PM. The integrated mobile base on the PM is pretty nice and I wish my Grizzly had that. And the blade guard on the PM is a little easier to work with and the riving knife looks handy. But are those things worth a 150% price premium? Not to me.

I ended up putting on an Incra fence with the extra-long rails and a Woodworker II blade. Having actually worked with a friend's PM2000, I can say from experience that I now have a tablesaw that's superior to the Powermatic and I'm still $600 under the PM cost. That'll more than cover a really nice blade guard and some handwheels.

Also keep in mind that Grizzly has almost legendary customer service. I can personally attest that they'll go the extra mile and then some to make any problems right. I have Grizzly, Jet, Powermatic, and some others in my shop. For any new equipment, Grizzly will be my first stop.

BTW, Grizzly has the 1023SL on sale right now at 25% off. $890 including shipping. Give them a call, they will try to hook you up with a local owner so you can lay hands on the real thing.

[Gerry Werth]

Rodger,
Like several other comments, Grizzly has good sales and some free shipping. Just another thought, why don't you take the Ridgid back to HD and look at their table saw. It is the same or similar to earlier model Craftsman (before they went to China) and is a pretty good saw.

[Jeff Monson]

I'd second on the grizzley with the riving knife, I recently bought a new cabinet saw with a riving knife and cant express how much I like the added safety. I would also recemmond a cabinet style just for dust collection alone, its worth it. I came from a delta contractors saw and loved the saw but added dust collection and a riving knife are really nice features.

[Cary Falk]

Well, since you don't want a Grizzly, there is no way I would suggest a Grizzly G1023SL full blown 3hp cabinet saw for $889 delivered. Never,. Not in a million years. Since I am not going to suggest the Grizzly then the sliding Jet would be ok also. I didn't know there was such thing as a hybrid Uni.:D

[Rodger Kanis]

"Hybrid Unisaw" I misinterpreted the ad... sorry! :o

The issue with the Grizzly's, while a good value overall, is it's pushing +$900 by the time it's done. Again... I can stretch some, but if a used $600 saw will work, I'm fine with that, too.

I'm not opposed to spending more, but I AM a hobby user, so is it necessary for my level of use? That's what I'm struggling with.

Re: Ridgid 5411... nah... I checked that saw out but wasn't impressed. I'd buy one of the $600 saws I posted above before that. In fact, the guy at HD steered me away from that, saying either get the portable at a discount or jump up to something higher somewhere else. He is a woodworker, so I took his advice seriously.

[scott spencer]

If you've got 220v, it'll be tough to be the Grizzly G1023SL for $795 ($889 to your door). 3hp, full cabinet, industrial style trunnion mechanisms, left tilt, steel Biese style fence, well proven and well liked....a good bargain at regular price...a no brainer IMO at current sale prices.

[Matt Day]

I had a hybrid Delta probably similar to the one you listed (basically a contractor's saw with a cabinet around the bottom. Don't confuse it with a Uni!) and liked it a lot. I ended up selling it used very little for about $450 IIRC, with a Vega fence, to get a true cabinet saw (which I got used for less than $450).

I agree with the others - get a Grizzly full on cabinet saw. Once you get hooked on WW'ing with your 1 3/4hp machine, you'll want to upgrade! You'll thank us later!

[glenn bradley]

PS: I looked into the Craftsman 22124 that seems to be highly regarded on this forum, but it's still selling for $959 at the moment!

The 22114 just doesn't measure up in my mind, but I'm open to differing viewpoints.

I am one of many happy owners of the 22124. It really hit big when it came out with a commercial Bies fence, a Lietz blade, cabinet mounted trunnions and cast iron wings all for about $1000. Since then the price has stayed the same but the market has been widened as far as what $1000 will buy. At $750 or below, as you will sometimes catch it, this saw is hard to beat. At $1000, there is more to see (Grizzly 1023 comes to mind).

[Rodger Kanis]

Just a follow-up:

I ended finding a deal for a General International 50-185L-M1 Deluxe Contractor Table Saw. It's only a couple years old, in great shape, 2 HP, cast iron top and wings. It is the 52" fence version, left-tilt, and came with the mobile base, blade, anti-kickback safety rollers, and General's very good Biesemeyer clone fence, miter gauge, sawdust plate fitting, several throat plates, etc. It can run on 110 or 220 v, so I'll probably wire 220 to it to make it easier to upgrade if necessary.

It was fairly straightforward to disassemble since I couldn't get it into my basement full assembled. Heavy table, though, but I luckily had an appliance dolly to get the top down there... I was working alone and had to get it in there before it rained! Cast Iron and rain aren't friends. :)

This saw, for me, strikes a good balance of performance/accuracy and cost. I paid $500 for it... not a bad deal in my opinion, and the guy was fun to talk to. You just never know what you have in common with strangers until you start talking.

I was this close {{holding thumb and forefinger about an inch apart}} to going with the Grizzly people above were recommending. The thing that kept me from doing it was that it was going to be $900 when it got to my door, and didn't have a riving knife (if I'm going to spend nearly a thousand dollars, it better have that knife). I can really use that additional $400 elsewhere in the shop as I'm just starting up, and it was an easier "sell" to my wife: "I took back the Ridgid saw to Home Depot and only paid another $150 for 10 times the saw that other one was."

I think I made the correct decision in my particular situation at this stage of my woodworking development. Plus, that bigger Grizzly was a LOT heavier! If I progress beyond this saw, and I think that would take quite a while, I'll make my second saw my "forever" saw. (Depending upon funds at the time, of course. :D )

Thank you for all your input. It was a challenging decision to make, and I was obsessing over it, then finally decided to stop obsessing and make a decision!

[scott spencer]

The GI 50-185 was my first nice saw. Definitely a more substantial saw than what you had. It'll do a good job for you if you get it aligned well, and put a good thin kerf blade on it (Infinity, Freud, Forrest, DeWalt PT, CMT... $30-$100). My original belt made an obvious thumping sound so I replaced it with a link belt. I also added PALS to help hold the alignment (~ $20).

You're gonna have to post pics so people will believe you, so I'll let you borrow a pic of my old setup until you can snap one of your own! ;)

Congrats and enjoy!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/hewood/RT/GIlayout1.jpg

FWIW, you could have put an aftermarket riving knife of the Griz 1023 for ~ $125....I'm pretty sure the B.O.R.K (Bolt on ripping knife) will also fit your GI. Walnutacreswoodworking.com (http://shop.walnutacrewoodworking.com/category.sc;jsessionid=88D35E8910FB6A213164FD1B6ED 66B1D.qscstrfrnt02?categoryId=2)

[Nick Lazz]

Just a follow-up:

I ended finding a deal for a General International 50-185L-M1 Deluxe Contractor Table Saw. It's only a couple years old, in great shape, 2 HP, cast iron top and wings. It is the 52" fence version, left-tilt, and came with the mobile base, blade, anti-kickback safety rollers, and General's very good Biesemeyer clone fence, miter gauge, sawdust plate fitting, several throat plates, etc. It can run on 110 or 220 v, so I'll probably wire 220 to it to make it easier to upgrade if necessary.


Rodger,

You made a good choice. I had the same saw with the 31" rails and the reason I sold it was to upgrade to larger rails and get a cabinet saw for dust collection purposes.
I was very happy with that saw and bought it after a lot of research. I think for contractor style saws, that one is hard to beat.
Enjoy, and rest assured you have a good saw.

Nick

[Keith Harrell]

I think most TS would be good in that price range but I would make sure the fence that comes on it is first rate. I have a Unisaw with a Biesemeyer fence and trust the fence and it's measure marks without question. I only have owned one TS so other fences are as good I'm sure but getting spoiled with this is as important as who make it I feel.
ps. 2+ hp is always a good point.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

get a good saw. Buy used if you have to.
Don't sell yourself cheap and settle for less.

[Rodger Kanis]

I'm definitely going to get the contractor saw PALS for it, since for $25 you can't go wrong making the alignment easier.

I also bought a used A-Line-It Deluxe kit for a little over half-price, which will help me get the whole thing dialed in, including the fence. I use the term "used" loosely as it looks like it's never been used.

I'll put pics up soon, but right now it's sitting on the floor in pieces. Maybe I'll take a picture of those and post them, sort of a before/after type deal.

I'm recovering from a broken right hand (basketball) and I overdid it last weekend in my local used tool purchasing and moving things in and out of the basement (one saw out, one saw in), so my hand it pretty sore... need to give it a rest. I won't put it together until the PALS arrive since there's no sense in doing the trunions twice, and I might just do the table saw performance kit as well (pulleys and link belt) since it's already apart.

I investigated the **** for the Grizzly, and yes, I would have done it had I bought the Grizzly just for the extra measure of safety. Now the total price would be $1,100 with a blade, putting me even further out of budget! Oh, I understand the performance and dust collection is better, but again, the budget did matter, and I tend to easily let things get out of hand! Once I actually produce some results and build my confidence (and my wife's) and skill, then I can justify jumping up to the next level. I have a tendency to buy things (and go overboard in amassing) and not use them, so I'm trying to avoid that here. Self-awareness... :)

This is the best decision for now, given the money available and the skill level I'm at.

Thank you for the well-wishes and advice. This is a great resource.

[Rodger Kanis]

Per my promise, attached are pictures of the saw, in parts, for a "before" photo. It's currently still in this state until my hand heals a little more and the PALS arrive.

Once I have it set up I'll post an "after" photo.

Any suggestions for clean-up for the table top? I was going to use a grease-cutting detergent to clean it up and get any oil/grime off of it, then put a tool protector on it that I found at Rockler. I was having trouble finding basic paste wax that you folks talk about. Is that available at the local BORGs, or is it something I have to order?

-Rodger