Euro Style Cabinets vs. Face Frame?

[Jeff A. Smith]

I am considering undertaking a home remodeling job (mine) where I'll be constructing some cabinets for my kitchen. I'm just wondering if anyone has any thoughts or comparisons between face frame construction and the euro-style cabinets?

I am also weighing a make vs. buy decision on the cabinets...

Any and all advice is appreciated!

Thanks!

[Steve Rowe]

Having done both, frameless is the way to go. Much easier, no fiddling around with attaching frames. A cleaner look, and much wider set of hardware options.

If you have never done frameless, check out the KISS 32mm system.

http://www.cabsystems.com/KISSII/KIIrivDe-mail.pdf

Buy versus make. If you can find exactly what you want and the quality you want then buy. But, given this is a woodworkers forum, we all know the answer to the above.:D

Steve

[Jay Brewer]

Hi Jeff, I build Face Frame cabinets for 1/2 of my living. I am seriously considering a switch to frameless. The reason? You can build frameless cabinets twice as fast as framed. There is a ton of work in building and finishing and installing a simple face frame.

I cant say one is better than the other. A frame will help keep the box square and from racking, but so will a 3/4 back on a framless cabinet. Once its screwed to the wall, its not going to rack anyway.

Im not sure what tools you have, but frameless requires very accurate cuts for everything to line up right. Also need a decent way to edgeband.

I used to think that frameless meant cheap, and most of the frameless at the Borgs are. Look at some of the custom cabinet makers out there producing some of the most beautiful cabinets that are frameless.

[John Noble]

There's no accounting for taste, but I think the euro style is kind of ugly. Maybe I haven't seen it done right, but the whole effect screams "IKEA" to me even when it's not IKEA. Maybe it's the fact that I know there's a bunch of termite poop under all that 0.003" veneer (assuming it's not melamine).

From a practical standpoint, the 32mm euro hinges bug me too--they intrude into the cabinets' openings and are far larger than necessary to support typical kitchen doors. I like the look and function of traditional applied hinges better. Yes, they are a pain to install. But the 60 year old solid pine face frame cabinets in my mother's house are still serviceable after all these years so the carpenters who built them did it right once and for all.

Or maybe I'm just annoyed at the hybrid euro/face frame garbage in my kitchen. The previous owner gushed about the fine Thomasville cabinets, but I'd much rather have had the original solid wood stuff with 14 layers of paint than a bunch of cherry sticks nailed to 3/8" (I'm serious) particle board.

But to address the OP's question: while tastes vary, I'm sure you can get good results with quality materials and good workmanship no matter which way you go. Skip the melamine and go for hardwood plywood, for instance. Sure, the materials cost will be 5X higher, but the real cost of a job like this is in the labor anyway--why not do it right?

Just IMHO, of course.

[Cary Falk]

It is funny looking at the responses saying face frames are more work. I have built face frame cabinets and am now building an entertainment which could be considered frameless. Teh frameless is much more a pain in the a$$ for me. It takes 2x as long and you have to be very accurate. I built a whole bedroom worth of furnature with face frames in the same amount of time it is taking me to build this small entertainment center.

[David DeCristoforo]

The first question you need to ask yourself is if you prefer apples or oranges. There is no doubt that frameless cabinets can be easier to build and if you have the "right" equipment they can be vastly easier and faster to build. If you don't have the "right equipment" (a good panel cutting system is almost prerequisite as is a way to handle the application of edge banding and to deal with the line and construction boring typical of 32MM construction), you might even find that it is much more of a PITA to construct frameless cabinets. But frameless cabinets also have a certain "look" that results from having the doors and drawer faces very close together. You can vary the door design, put pilasters or moldings in between cabinet sections, add crowns (with their required backings since there are no face frames to attach them to) footed bases, etc. But they still will have "that look". Some designs simply lend themselves better to casework that has a face frame. I would ask myself if the intended design would be compromised by the lack (or inclusion) of a face frame and base my decision on that.

[Jim Becker]

This is a personal preference decision. While frameless can be somewhat simpler and faster to build, for many of us, the "look" of face frames and inset doors is what we want. My adaptation is to build my boxes to match the face frame openings to the carcass width so I can still use cup hinges designed for frameless inset doors.

[Jay Brewer]

It is funny looking at the responses saying face frames are more work. I have built face frame cabinets and am now building an entertainment which could be considered frameless. Teh frameless is much more a pain in the a$$ for me. It takes 2x as long and you have to be very accurate. I built a whole bedroom worth of furnature with face frames in the same amount of time it is taking me to build this small entertainment center.


You need to have an accurate way to process sheet goods with either type of construction, just more so with frameless. Frameless will be a test of sanity if your parts are not accurate, square and chip free.

The boxes are pretty much the same with either type. With frameless, you edgeband and assemble. With framed, you have to select stock ( Joint and plane if bought rough) , rip, crosscut, assemble, sand, finish and attach to the box. This is a lot of work for a simple frame.

I am not saying one is better than another,( I actually prefer framed ) just that frameless is A LOT faster than framed.

[Josiah Bartlett]

I really think it depends on the style you are going for. I consider frameless designs that strive to look like a classic cabinet door to look mass produced, but there are some very nice frameless designs out there that were designed to look good frameless. If you are trying to go victorian, craftsman, or farmhouse style then frameless looks awful, but if you want something modern then it can be very clean looking.

[Rick Potter]

I'm with John Noble on this one. I have just started my kitchen, and am using face frames. As he says the hinges intrude on the cabinet, and since we are building base units with drawers inside allmost all of them, the drawers would have to be narrower, and waste a lot of space. The wife absolutely would not allow that. She wants every square inch of usable space she can get....that is why she has me make them.

Many of the hinges only open 120 degrees too. Then when the kids open them too far, the door ends up on the floor.

We prefer the traditional look of the face frames, with hinges and hardware. As said above it's a personal preference. The euro style looks good in a 'modern' style kitchen, it's just not our style, and would not fit in our 'country' kitchen.

Rick Potter

[Paul Atkins]

I'm also with John. I can't tell you how many people's euro hinges I've adjusted, remounted and replaced. These were not my cabinet jobs either, they were cheap to custom cabinets all over the place. Not my cup o' tea. I'm trying to figure how not to have cabinets in my kitchen at all, but since I have only 49% vote here---------

[Rick Fisher]

Every cabinet up here is frameless.. I havent seen an actual face frame in many years..

If you build the box square.. (actually square).. and own a 35mm bit.. your off to the races..

The European hinges.. (blum are about all I would use) are adjustable.. not difficult at all.


As someone else said, Edge banding is the big issue.. I have never used it, but understand that Fastcap makes a self adhesive edge tape in about 70 different colors and species.. I would love to hear a report on that product.

[Brian Jarnell]

Same here in NZ,all frame less.
I go to a joiner who has an edge bander to put 3mm on doors,very strong.
So much a meter

[phil harold]

I like the look of the euro-style.

Doors look nicer without the face frame

You get more space in the cabinet and larger drawers

Quality hinges are a must!

[Darrell Bade]

To me the framed vs frameless is a personel decision based on what you want your kitchen to look like and then build for that look, no matter which is easier.

As far as cost, you will save a bunch by building your own and probably end up with better cabinets. I can see not wanting to spend the time if you are doing all the remodel work yourself as it will add a lot of time. In my case I built the cabinets while the builder was building the house. There was a lot of things I always thought I would do myself to save money that I just let the builder do and I concentrated on the cabinets which gave me more savings than doing a lot of small things. I made mine out of oak ply on the insides with solid oak face frames, oak raised panel doors, oak drawers and used Blum Hardware. My cost was around $3,000 and my wifes quote for the same layout was $9,000. I did spend a bunch of hours on it though. Many, many hours sanding.

[Jeff Duncan]

I'm with John Noble on this one. I have just started my kitchen, and am using face frames. As he says the hinges intrude on the cabinet, and since we are building base units with drawers inside allmost all of them, the drawers would have to be narrower, and waste a lot of space. The wife absolutely would not allow that. She wants every square inch of usable space she can get....that is why she has me make them.

Many of the hinges only open 120 degrees too. Then when the kids open them too far, the door ends up on the floor.

We prefer the traditional look of the face frames, with hinges and hardware. As said above it's a personal preference. The euro style looks good in a 'modern' style kitchen, it's just not our style, and would not fit in our 'country' kitchen.

Rick Potter


Uhh Rick, not sure if you realize this, but your drawer boxes will be smaller with faceframes then frameless! This is one of the downsides of faceframe construction, you lose valuable storage area. Each drawer in the kitchen is smaller being that it has to fit within the faceframe. The hinges aren't a problem as you just vary the spacing. Of course having straight drawers instead of roll-outs is also more practical, but the look is personal preference.
Access to faceframe cabinets is smaller too, so tougher fitting larger items in. Don't get me wrong, I build both styles to peoples preference, but frameless wins hands down as far as accessibility and practicality. Hinges come in a variety of openings, though 110 is the most common and practical. And unless your kids are really wailing on them they shouldn't be ending up on the floor. My 2 year old was swinging on my sink base doors this morning with no ill effects.

At the end of the day my favorite is inset doors and beaded faceframes. Nothing says high end custom work like them. Still not as practical, I just love the look. Everyone has to go with their own personal preference, I just wanted to clarify some things that were a little less than accurate.

JeffD

[Thomas S Stockton]

Blum make a zero protrusion hinge so you don't have to space out the slide on the hinge side when building drawers inside a cabinet.
I think bottom line is it is a style issue, I prefer frameless and have found ways to trim them out so they don't have the sleek modern look. Unless your doing a full inset door most people use the euro hinges designed for face frames any way.
Tom

[Mike Goetzke]

Jeff - I'm soon to start my own kitchen remodel. I picked up these two book which are very helpful:

Building Kitchen Cabinets by Udo Schmidt

Build Your Own Kitchen Cabinets by Danny Proulx


Mike

[Chip Lindley]

A little history...(from www.euro32products.com (http://www.euro32products.com))
"Frameless cabinetry also known as European cabinetry or 32mm system cabinetry was developed after World War II in response to shortages of wood supplies and an enormous demand for cabinetry required in the rebuilding of Europe . The 32mm system is based on columns of 5mm diameter holes that are bored into the cabinet side panels which are spaced 32 mm center to center (CTC) apart from each other in vertical columns and the vertical columns are spaced apart in dimensions that are in multiples of 32 as shown in Fig. 1. The system holes are used to mount a wide variety of European hardware including door hinges, drawer guides (runners), shelf pins and other hardware. Why was 32mm chosen as the magic number? Simple, that was the closest dimension that the spindles of the multi-head hole boring equipment of the day could be adjusted to."

That being said--IF one is not equipped to cut and drill sheet goods accurately, the benefits of frameless are lost!

I prefer the richness of FF cabinet styles in most cases. But, in some instances, frameless does utilize more usable cabinet space. Especially with pull-outs and wider/deeper drawers without intermediate drawer rails. There is a trade-off between wasted space with protruding euro hinges into frameless space, or with faceframes overlapping of cabinet sides.

Usable space can be increased if FF width is reduced to 1.5" or 1.75", and intermediate rails can be reduced to 1.25" between drawers (with 1/2" overlay), to still provide "the look" and FF stability, but more usable space.

[Jim Foster]

There is one more option. A while back a new/old trend towards kitchen design was starting to take hold, where the cabinets, countertops etc. were built much more like free standing furniture than the traditional cabinet runs we are generally all used to seeing. If I was going to remodel a kitchen, I would probably opt for this type of cabinet style. With an accommodating wife, I could also complete each piece and install it, since it is basically like adding a piece of furniture to a room.

Regarding face frame vs frameless; I think the style of the house and the trim has a lot to do with that decision


I am considering undertaking a home remodeling job (mine) where I'll be constructing some cabinets for my kitchen. I'm just wondering if anyone has any thoughts or comparisons between face frame construction and the euro-style cabinets?

I am also weighing a make vs. buy decision on the cabinets...

Any and all advice is appreciated!

Thanks!

[David DeCristoforo]

"...more like free standing furniture..."

Known "in the trades" as "furniture style" or "unfitted" cabinetry. But this is a concept more than a style, just as frameless cabinets are the result of a construction method more than a style. They are often referred to as "Euro style" but that's mostly because the construction method was developed in Europe. It really has little to do with style. Frameless cabinetry can be "unfitted" just as easily as face frame cabinets can. Add some pilasters, paneled ends, bracketed feet and presto, an "unfitted cabinet".

[Steve Rowe]

Ahh - the solution to the debate has just become obvious. Make your face frames the same thickness as the thickness of the plywood.:eek:

[Jim Foster]

I hear what your saying and do not disagree as far as bits and pieces going together, but from a style point of view, a frameless cabinet is a frameless cabinet. A friend of mine has a very nice kitchen/dining area designed to the hilt using frameless cabinets "unfit" as you mention and it looks very much like a modern attractive Euro style kitchen. It's very nice, but it's modern and European looking.


"...more like free standing furniture..."

Known "in the trades" as "furniture style" or "unfitted" cabinetry. But this is a concept more than a style, just as frameless cabinets are the result of a construction method more than a style. They are often referred to as "Euro style" but that's mostly because the construction method was developed in Europe. It really has little to do with style. Frameless cabinetry can be "unfitted" just as easily as face frame cabinets can. Add some pilasters, paneled ends, bracketed feet and presto, an "unfitted cabinet".

[David DeCristoforo]

"...but from a style point of view, a frameless cabinet is a frameless cabinet..."

Agreed. From my earlier reply:

"But frameless cabinets also have a certain "look" that results from having the doors and drawer faces very close together. You can vary the door design, put pilasters or moldings in between cabinet sections, add crowns (with their required backings since there are no face frames to attach them to) footed bases, etc. But they still will have "that look". Some designs simply lend themselves better to casework that has a face frame."

[Nick Hoffman]

What look do want? That is the question you must answer.

[Brian Jarnell]

What look do want? That is the question you must answer.
Quite so,old fashioned or modern.