Our schools are letting us down.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Found this on a gas pump off the beaten path in NC last week.

The 'S' in "in Side" should NOT have been capitalized!!!!

Sheesh!!!
.

[Eric DeSilva]

Probably bulk printed in China.

At the same time, the capitalization doesn't seem to be the egregious error here...

[Mitchell Andrus]

Probably bulk printed in China.

At the same time, the capitalization doesn't seem to be the egregious error here...

Ummmmm... these are others?
.

[Phil Thien]

Ummmmm... these are others?
.

Well, unless the ATM is literally built into the SIDE of the pump, then "inside" is one word.

[Al Wasser]

Schools are indeed failing but don't blame it all on them. Many parents are failing as well. I get a kick out of the spelling errors on ebay. I saw something listed the other day from "simbabway". Then we honor announcers who can't speak well. Madden for example. He and others drive me crazy with all the "I mean" and "you know". Now we have "advance forward" and "all through out", etc. Maybe I better stop.

[Garth Keel]

Those ones? Strictly prohibited? Something is either prohibited or not. No Problem instead of Thank You. It's not just the schools. Lazy people (language);)

[Dave Johnson29]

Mitchell,

What can you expect, 4 years back I remember reading of a school board about 200 miles from here that gave administrators a pay raise from 26% to 40%. They fired two teachers as they did not have any money left for an 8% pay raise for the teachers.

Ya gets what ya pays for. Whooda thought that administrators were more important to a school than teachers?

[James Jaragosky]

Mitchell,

What can you expect, 4 years back I remember reading of a school board about 200 miles from here that gave administrators a pay raise from 26% to 40%. They fired two teachers as they did not have any money left for an 8% pay raise for the teachers.

Ya gets what ya pays for. Whooda thought that administrators were more important to a school than teachers?

The ability to spell correctly is not a sign of intelligence nor is it necessarily a sign that the school system failed to properly teach the subject. And dare might I suggest that the parents may not be at fault ether. I can not spell correctly, and I can assure you that the nuns tried to literately beat the skill into me. Not until I was a adult did I discover that I was slightly dyslexic. It shows in my reading style as well as my spelling and sentence structure. But I can memorize a 15 digit number just by looking at it, and I can do complex math in my head. I cannot give the nuns credit for those skills; I have them in spite of my ridged catholic education.
As I see it the purpose of written communication is to convey information, the sign in question has done so. It is not a technical manual,Lighten up. We all have different skills and different of levels of skills; do not be quick to judge someone by just this one skill set.
Just my humble opinion.
James Jaragosky
P.S. Please feel free to pick apart my post for spelling and grammar mistakes I am use to it.

[Jim Rimmer]

I don't blame the schools as much as foriegn influence (from printing to tech writers for owner manuals) and laziness coupled with a "don't care" or "so what" attitude. Near me there is a lot where you can park your vehicle or boat and try to sell it. It is called "Park and Sale". Shouldn't it be "Park and Sell". Examples abound and it just makes me feel better about myself. ;)

[Anthony Anderson]

The ability to spell correctly is not a sign of intelligence nor is it necessarily a sign that the school system failed to properly teach the subject. And dare might I suggest that the parents may not be at fault ether. I can not spell correctly, and I can assure you that the nuns tried to literately beat the skill into me. Not until I was a adult did I discover that I was slightly dyslexic. It shows in my reading style as well as my spelling and sentence structure. But I can memorize a 15 digit number just by looking at it, and I can do complex math in my head. I cannot give the nuns credit for those skills; I have them in spite of my ridged catholic education.
As I see it the purpose of written communication is to convey information, the sign in question has done so. It is not a technical manual,Lighten up. We all have different skills and different of levels of skills; do not be quick to judge someone by just this one skill set.
Just my humble opinion.
James Jaragosky
P.S. Please feel free to pick apart my post for spelling and grammar mistakes I am use to it.


I agree completely James, and have stated the same philosophy, here as well as other places. I can spell pretty accurately, but I don't always use "proper" English.

I pay attentiont to the message/point, rather than grammar (written or spoken).

I had a math professor that could not spell worth a darn, but wow he was a brilliant at mathematics. I could not care in the least, if could spell correctly.

While in school, students are often criticized for not spelling accurately. Give me the message kids, tell me a story, don't worry about spelling. We can work on that later. Getting kids to open up, and care about what they are learning is the best way to get them to care about spelling. Their spelling skills will, more often than not, improve greatly.

But no, I don't believe that schools are failing our kids. My son has been fortunate to have some excellent teachers. Not to say that there aren't horrible teachers, but overall, we have one of the best education systems in the world.

Let he who is perfect cast the first stone, or something like that. :)

Just MY (caps for emphasis) humble opinion.

[Chuck Wintle]

I agree completely James, and have stated the same philosophy, here as well as other places. I can spell pretty accurately, but I don't always use "proper" English.

I pay attentiont to the message/point, rather than grammar (written or spoken).

I had a math professor that could not spell worth a darn, but wow he was a brilliant at mathematics. I could not care in the least, if could spell correctly.

While in school, students are often criticized for not spelling accurately. Give me the message kids, tell me a story, don't worry about spelling. We can work on that later. Getting kids to open up, and care about what they are learning is the best way to get them to care about spelling. Their spelling skills will, more often than not, improve greatly.

But no, I don't believe that schools are failing our kids. My son has been fortunate to have some excellent teachers. Not to say that there aren't horrible teachers, but overall, we have one of the best education systems in the world.

Let he who is perfect cast the first stone, or something like that. :)

Just MY (caps for emphasis) humble opinion.
For me it's just the opposite belief for using correct English to get the point across. knowing how to write well to communicate the message in the most effective way possible is a skill that must be learned. Poor English makes for misunderstandings. So much depends on one's ability to read and understand.

[Mitchell Andrus]

It is not a technical manual, Lighten up.

No, Jim. There is no way to lighten up on this. 10 decades of lightening up has gotten us 'axed' instead of 'asked', 'where you at?' instead of 'where are you?' and 'in Side' instead of 'inside'. It is not a technical manual, but in an important situation, I may need to know that someone I depend on will be able to read one if not write one.

The sticker on the pump - It's disgusting. Two people failed to care enough to get it right, and hundreds of Americans have seen it and and assume the worst about the business owners, fellow Americans. I cringe when I think that a German tourist will see this stupidity and have his assumptions confirmed.... Ah, America. Where 'good enough' gets you a 9th grade education, a 12th grade diploma and a room in your parent's basement.

I am also mildly dyslexic, and the paint is worn off of my backspace key because it matters when I or anyone else changes an accepted pattern.

We don't lighten up when someone fails to learn what a yield sign means or when we don't get the correct change at the checkout counter.

It took 3 tries to get 'yield' spelled correctly. I don't want you to give me a pass when I type 'yeald' instead. I'm an American and I try harder to get it right.... correct.
.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Mitchell,

I would suggest that it's not the educational system that's "letting us down" but our society itself. The public education system in this country is a product of our society.
Our society has become a machine where speed and quantity are more important than accuracy and quality. Many of the responsibilities placed on schools today were once parental responsibilities but our society has tranferred them to the school system.

Our society tries to measure the success of the school system by unfairly comparing the results of students on "standardized" tests to those of european and asian schools. It's unfair because the tests here are given to the entire student body and the student body in those other countries were culled to the best and those with the most aptitude while in grade school. In those same countries the parents and societies, in general, place a greater importance on good education while a certain percentage of parents here look at the school systems as a daily baby sitting service. Here, all students including special education students with severe mental and physical challenges are given these "standardized tests".

A certain percentage of parents only become interested in the education of their children if little Johnny isn't going to graduate or be promoted to the next grade level at the end of the current year. They could care less if little Johnny can spell correctly. We have state legislatures setting the courses that little Johnny must pass. Little Johnny happens to have the IQ of a potato and can't pass that required class. Of course, if a school has too many students failing to graduate from high school, it must be the staff's problem. A troubling percentage of parents don't attend parent/teacher conferences or open houses.

I can find a lot of problems within the education system but I suggest that the system is the product of a failing society in which people are highly critical of others but won't accept responsibilty for their own short comings or contributions to the problems at hand.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I can find a lot of problems within the education system but I suggest that the system is the product of a failing society in which people are highly critical of others but won't accept responsibilty for their own short comings or contributions to the problems at hand.

I agree, but..... chicken or the egg.

So, do we educate the kids so they know better, or do we educate the parents so they care? Both?

In order to find the problems and correct them, we need to be able to recognize them. That's a hard thing to do when you can't even tell the difference between teachers' and teacher's.... or 'in Side'.

We've gotten to the point where we know the problems but can't spend the money to address them. A first step might be to eliminate spell-check from all computers. This would force people to be responsible for their own accuracy, and it's free.
.

[Brian Effinger]

I can find a lot of problems within the education system but I suggest that the system is the product of a failing society in which people are highly critical of others but won't accept responsibilty for their own short comings or contributions to the problems at hand.

Well said, Ken. I agree with Mitchell to an extent, but I think you hit the nail on the head.

[Dennis Peacock]

Please allow me to add something here.

If we say that writing skills and accurate spelling and clear communications doesn't really matter that much?

What about safety instructions for power tools?
What about manuals for aircraft engine repair and inspection?
What about manuals for explosives disposal?
What about directions for travel? Medication? Medical procedures?

I'm an ex-explosives expert. Believe me.....one never knows when it becomes extremely important for a manual or publication to be clear and concise. Someone's life or "many" people's lives could depend on another's spelling or unclear directions.

Or....like from the old school that I came from? If it's worth doing? It's worth doing right the FIRST time. :)

I agree with Ken for the most part......our society has become lazy and "good enough" is fine......just not in my book. :D

[Dennis McGarry]

It is a two fold problem.

One, society is complacent, period!
Two the schools are under funded, and poorly staffed in some regards.

Now how does one relate to the other? For everyone here that complains about the lack of teaching for it. Would you agree that the funding issue is a problem? That teachers as a whole are underpaid and understaffed? I would have to believe yes. BUT here is the kicker...

Are you willing to take a pay cut or pay more in taxes to help fund it better, to ensure that the kids of today have the tools and teachings to become great leaders of tomorrow? Most will say no to this...

In this example, lets assume that all things being equal, that the taxing body is strightforward and precise. That the underlying problems we so often know are there are not.

The same goes for anything in this country, We complain and want better but are unwilling to make the sacrafices nessacary to achive it.

[Glenn Clabo]

Although I don't exactly know why I can't spell, I can tell you it should not be used as a yardstick for judging intelligence or drive. I'll match my IQ, my life's accomplishments, and my never ending attempts to learn how to spell...to anyone. My shame over the inability to spell has caused me untold pain over the years and had me convinced, in my early school years, that I was stupid. Those feelings continue to surface so I over compensate for it by working twice as hard and reading twice as much as everyone else. The worst part of not being able to spell is dealing with the ridicule from people who have no idea what it's like. My early years were hell because it inhibited me from expressing my thoughts, particularly in writing, in the way that some people have responded on this thread .
Until spell checking came to computers I spent more time trying to spell than I did thinking about what I wanted to write. It has opened me up...and let me do so much more in life and in work. I can't even come close to quantifying it but I can tell you that doing away with spell checking would make my life extremely difficult. If it wasn't for spell checking...I can name literally 100's of people I would have never had the opportunity to meet... most importantly...my wife. If I wouldn't have corresponded with her in the beginning...she may not have spent the time she needed to get to know me. She is one of those people who can spell any word...in 2 languages...but after she got to know me has watched me struggle with understanding...not ridicule. In fact she sometimes uses me to edit the content of her professional writing when she is stumped at getting a point across.
My inability to spell has absolutely nothing to do with my parents, my teachers, or societies faults. It only has something to do with the way my brain works...or some would say...doesn't work. There is actually something called "Spelling Dyspraxia" which is the difficulty/inability to spell words correctly on a consistent basis. I have never been tested for it and never will be because it wouldn't make any difference.
It is very easy for people to sit back and ridicule people for something that they are better at than others. Ridiculing is easy...understanding takes work. It is true that some people are just lazy...or just don't care that words spoken or even spelled incorrectly have an impact on people. But words spoken or written passing judgment on some people who have no control...even when said or spelled correctly...have a profound and hurtful effect and shouldn't just be blurted out without a least an attempt at trying to understand...not simply pass judgment or blame.
(BTW...I had to use Word to type this...my computer won't allow a spell checker where I am right now. There were more misspelled words than even I would have guessed)

[Mitchell Andrus]

That means that you have recognized your shortcomings - and have no business running or working in a sign printing shop. That's perfectly OK.

It's when someone who incompetent takes a job in a sign shop, spits out garbage, and the client accepts it that gets me fried.

I know grammar in the above stinks. I don't care ;) but at least I know the difference.
.

[Garth Keel]

As with some of you who have commented earlier, I have always had trouble spelling. Before "spell check" (one of the worlds greatest inventions :rolleyes:) I wore out a spelling dictionary.:eek:

I think most of my writing is in reasonably correct grammar not because I know grammar but, because I read A LOT. I usually recognize what a sentence should be like. ( I also throw in commas like confetti,,,,,,)

I also try to read what I wrote before I (send / submit) the writing. Too many people are too lazy to do that.

Other things that irritate: Two, To, Too; Their, There; Good, Well.

Getting the idea across is important and good (or reasonable) writing will do that.

As you will notice, I just discovered the "Parenthesis" and "Quote Marks":D

[Stephen Tashiro]

I'm getting to be an old guy, but my memory is intact enough to recall when rock and roll was a symptom of the decay of society. Old geezers always think the world is going down hill. Perhaps the school system is failing us, but then it has always been failing us.

As a child in the South, I recall the amazing variety of spellings of the word "restaurant" that one saw on business establishments.

[Greg Peterson]

It's North Carolina. What do you expect?

[Larry Frank]

I think that it is critical for the parents to spend the time with the kids to make certain that they are doing well in school. When mine were in grade and high school, my wife and I checked the homework and made certain that it was completed properly on time. If the homework was not done properly, then the kids stayed home and worked on it. The parents make a critical difference making certain that the kids do well in school.

At the same time, we should not blame the school administration for our kids failures. We, the tax paying public, vote for the the school boards and as such are responsible to get them off of the board if they are not doing the job properly. One should go to the school board meetings and participate in the running of the school.

I do not think I want to get started on the issue of spelling and grammar but I will. Before I retired, I worked on a number of capital projects and reviewed countless bids. If I read a bid that was poorly written, I assumed that the bidder was probably going to do a poor job completing a contract. Your writing represents yourself to others. Poor spelling and grammar suggest a person who does not really care. This may or may not be the truth but a poorly written document starts one off on the wrong foot.

[Neal Clayton]

my stepsister is the worst speller i know. what does she do for a living? owns a sign shop ;).

that sticker may have been some of her work!

[James Jaragosky]

I think that it is critical for the parents to spend the time with the kids to make certain that they are doing well in school. When mine were in grade and high school, my wife and I checked the homework and made certain that it was completed properly on time. If the homework was not done properly, then the kids stayed home and worked on it. The parents make a critical difference making certain that the kids do well in school.

At the same time, we should not blame the school administration for our kids failures. We, the tax paying public, vote for the the school boards and as such are responsible to get them off of the board if they are not doing the job properly. One should go to the school board meetings and participate in the running of the school.

I do not think I want to get started on the issue of spelling and grammar but I will. Before I retired, I worked on a number of capital projects and reviewed countless bids. If I read a bid that was poorly written, I assumed that the bidder was probably going to do a poor job completing a contract. Your writing represents yourself to others. Poor spelling and grammar suggest a person who does not really care. This may or may not be the truth but a poorly written document starts one off on the wrong foot.
“Poor spelling and grammar suggest a person who does not really care.” as someone who does care, but cannot spell this statement made my blood boil.
The reality is that many people feel this way. It is a form of prejudice. I have lived with people judging me this way for all my life. I could choose to judge them as narrow minded and shallow, instead I see them as uninformed and insensitive. Those of you that find proper spelling and grammar attainable with little to fair effort; I am truly jealous. How much easier and less stressful my life would be if God had blessed me with this same ability. Instead he chose to challenge me with my disability and with people that judge me for it. God has blessed me with gifts and talents in other areas, he given me this cross to bear. It still hurts when I read statements like the one above. I am currently trying to work my way through college at the age of 48; and I am doing so despite the innate ability to spell properly, consistently. Many times, I feel that some people are so hung up on spelling that they would toss out the cure for cancer, if it had too many errors.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I am currently trying to work my way through college at the age of 48; and I am doing so despite the innate ability to spell properly, consistently.

James,

You have my respect! That's a tough row to hoe!

For the record, and I'm not passing judgement or condemning anyone for poor spelling or grammar but as Dennis Peacock stated earlier, precise spelling and grammar are critical in some highly technical areas. I have dealt with poor English skills more than once but one instance stands out in my memory. When installing a CT scanner and performing a critical alignment the manual said "Turn R-7 unreversely." Someone explain that to me please.:confused:

[James Jaragosky]

James,

You have my respect! That's a tough row to hoe!

For the record, and I'm not passing judgement or condemning anyone for poor spelling or grammar but as Dennis Peacock stated earlier, precise spelling and grammar are critical in some highly technical areas. I have dealt with poor English skills more than once but one instance stands out in my memory. When installing a CT scanner and performing a critical alignment the manual said "Turn R-7 unreversely." Someone explain that to me please.:confused:
Ken, I might say you have no Idea, However maybe you do. I spend twice the amount of time typing paper that the average student does. I also do twice the research. Unreversly is the opposite of clockwise. it is very plain to see to any dyslexic.
Thanks for the affirmation.
Jim J.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

James,

While "unreversely" probably is clockwise, that is only true if you ASSUME that reversely is counterclockwise. Understand when adjusting high current motor controllers that drive a 2,000 lb frame, a small mistake can cost thousands of dollars and days if not a couple of weeks of down time while you wait for large parts to arrive from Japan. The person who wrote that was in Japan and English is their second language. I'll admit, his English is better than my Japanese!:o

I can only imagine what it's like to be dyslexic and I can sympathise. My wife has worked with special education students at the grade school level for over a quarter of a century. She became a certified nurses aide as some of her students had to be fed via a feeding tube. A lot of the students she works with are hydrocephalic, dyslexic, and have ADD, PTDS etc. I can understand and sympathize with the problems and the effort required to overcome them.

[James Jaragosky]

James,

While "unreversely" probably is clockwise, that is only true if you ASSUME that reversely is counterclockwise. Understand when adjusting high current motor controllers that drive a 2,000 lb frame, a small mistake can cost thousands of dollars and days if not a couple of weeks of down time while you wait for large parts to arrive from Japan. The person who wrote that was in Japan and English is their second language. I'll admit, his English is better than my Japanese!:o

I can only imagine what it's like to be dyslexic and I can sympathise. My wife has worked with special education students at the grade school level for over a quarter of a century. She became a certified nurses aide as some of her students had to be fed via a feeding tube. A lot of the students she works with are hydrocephalic, dyslexic, and have ADD, PTDS etc. I can understand and sympathize with the problems and the effort required to overcome them.
Your wife is a special person. It takes a great deal of patiencs to deal with people with special needs.
I have a specific type of dyslexia. Spelling DyspraxiaA secondary disability connected to a visual or auditory processing disorderDifficulty/Inability to spell words correctly on a consistent basis.
The damnedest thing is, I read and comprehend very well. I can even tell when I make most of my spelling errors; I just have to struggle to correct them, because even though I know I have spelled them wrong, For the life of me I cannot spell them correctly consistently. I may get it right in one sentence and wrong in the next.
For anyone interested the Google search is the best spell checker, when office just cannot figure out what the heck you are trying to spell; Google will get it every time.Jim J.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Jim,

I couldn't do what my wife does. Some of her students don't live to be adults and she's had to attend their funerals. She is the ultimate optimist always searching for something positive in everything she experiences and in everyone. She is emotionally a tougher person than I. I just couldn't do it.

[Eric Larsen]

“Poor spelling and grammar suggest a person who does not really care.” as someone who does care, but cannot spell this statement made my blood boil.
The reality is that many people feel this way. It is a form of prejudice.

I'm calling shenanigans on this.

I was a reporter and editor for 15 years. (Then I left that particular pressure cooker of a vocation and learned how to make beer for a living.)

My newspaper was owned by a large chain. They did a study about spelling errors. The conclusion was that when people saw a spelling error in a news story -- even if they themselves could not spell well -- they were more skeptical/negative about that article and the writer. If there were two or more errors, they'd quit reading that article and read another.

If there were daily mistakes on the front page, they would grow to distrust the newspaper itself.

The conclusion? Spelling counts.

It's not prejudice. It's not conceit. It's not nitpicking. Spelling counts.

I do not judge people on their ability to spell "renaissance" or their ability to differentiate "loose" and "lose." (English is a second language for many people here).

But on some level -- all of us are checking each others spelling. (It wouldn't surprise me if there's an error somewhere in this post. But when I catch them, I edit.)

I agree with Mitchell. Keep editing until you get it right.

The mantra at my newspaper was, "Good stories aren't written. They're rewritten."

This tip might help you. It helped me. When you are done with a post, don't hit "submit reply." Instead, read the post out loud, in a normal conversational voice. You'll catch a lot of mistakes that way. It should also help with your college papers. Unfortunately, you can't do that for exam essays.

[James Jaragosky]

I'm calling shenanigans on this.

I was a reporter and editor for 15 years. (Then I left that particular pressure cooker of a vocation and learned how to make beer for a living.)

My newspaper was owned by a large chain. They did a study about spelling errors. The conclusion was that when people saw a spelling error in a news story -- even if they themselves could not spell well -- they were more skeptical/negative about that article and the writer. If there were two or more errors, they'd quit reading that article and read another.

If there were daily mistakes on the front page, they would grow to distrust the newspaper itself.

The conclusion? Spelling counts.


It's not prejudice. It's not conceit. It's not nitpicking. Spelling counts.

I do not judge people on their ability to spell "renaissance" or their ability to differentiate "loose" and "lose." (English is a second language for many people here).

But on some level -- all of us are checking each others spelling. (It wouldn't surprise me if there's an error somewhere in this post. But when I catch them, I edit.)

I agree with Mitchell. Keep editing until you get it right.

The mantra at my newspaper was, "Good stories aren't written. They're rewritten."

This tip might help you. It helped me. When you are done with a post, don't hit "submit reply." Instead, read the post out loud, in a normal conversational voice. You'll catch a lot of mistakes that way. It should also help with your college papers. Unfortunately, you can't do that for exam essays.
Please support your assertion with hard facts. The survey your paper took should suffice.
Otherwise it is just another unsupported opinion. I suggest you look up the definition of prejudice.
Also the fact that you were a reporter means that you made your living with words, don’t you think that may give you biased objectivity? I inform you I have a documented medical disability, and you respond with try harder. I do. Every post I try harder.
I will not be respond to this thread anymore. We have two opinions and perspectives I understand yours, it has been made very clear numerous times over the years. as I am ill equipped to wage a war with words I will leave the debate to those that can better articulate in a manner that is acceptable to the try harder crowed.

[Eric Larsen]

Please support your assertion with hard facts. The survey your paper took should suffice.
Otherwise it is just another unsupported opinion. I suggest you look up the definition of prejudice.


The newspaper chain did not run a survey. They paid for a marketing study which measured the effects of spelling errors on reader trust. This was not a news story that we could all look up, read and then say, "Gee whiz." This was a tool used by a corporation to decide how much to spend on copy editors.

Since you're interested, here is how the study was done:

First, 100 people were given a spelling test. They were separated into three groups based on their score.

Each group was given fake newspaper front pages to read -- three different newspapers, seven days each. The three papers said basically the same thing about the same subjects.

One paper was perfect -- no spelling or grammatical errors. One paper had five (I think it was five) errors over a seven-day span. One paper had anywhere from one to three errors per day.

The results were unequivocal -- the error-free paper received the highest trust rating, followed by the five-error paper. Nobody trusted the error-prone paper -- not even the people who scored poorly on the spelling test.

The results of the study boiled down to: As a newspaper, your trust level is based largely on your accuracy. It certainly makes sense. A newspaper that can't get "to/too/two" right probably can't get the details of the latest Planning and Zoning Board meeting right, either.

It's kind of like the studies that show that tall people make more money than short people (http://www.innovations-report.com/html/reports/social_sciences/report-22530.html). Nobody is saying that tall people are better than short people, only that they seem to be rewarded more for the same amount of work. Is that fair? No. (Well, the NBA is at least one exception.)


PS -- Here is a link to a story that says basically the same thing and mentions similar credibility studies. (http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/498568) All big newspapers and newspaper chains conduct such studies.

[Glenn Clabo]

I will not be respond to this thread anymore. We have two opinions and perspectives I understand yours, it has been made very clear numerous times over the years. as I am ill equipped to wage a war with words I will leave the debate to those that can better articulate in a manner that is acceptable to the try harder crowed.

James,
You are doing a fine job explaining. You, like me, aren't asking for anything but understanding that trying harder is not an answer. Those who have the ability to "spell" may never have the ability to understand.

And as for you...you have my utmost respect. I have never had the stamina to get through the requirements for a degree even though I have a job that requires one...on paper. I have overcome my inabilities by the utilization of something that many people don't have and can't learn...good sense and critical thinking. It not only allows me to clearly see what the problem is...but how to solve it. More importantly I understand that some people will never be able to do things they can’t by just trying harder. I work in a world that CAN NOT make a mistake because it could cost hundreds of lives and billions of dollars. As this world continues to attempt to cover up the lack of critical thinking by documentation…I think of my fathers’ generation. It was filled with those that were illiterate…and look at what they accomplished. He, with his 8th grade education, did amazing things…and contributed much more to the success of this country by actually using his gift…the ability to think. He is a perfect example of the truth…words and their correct spelling can not overcome the inability to think and understand that solving problems requires more. Let those who love to point out others faults do their thing…and you keep doing yours. We need more people like you.

[Mitchell Andrus]

“Poor spelling and grammar suggest a person who does not really care.” as someone who does care, but cannot spell this statement made my blood boil.
The reality is that many people feel this way. It is a form of prejudice. I have lived with people judging me this way for all my life.

Of course its prejudice and of course you're being judged. We ALL are. Just as I form an opinion of the butcher by looking at the meat in his display case, the painter who's left (or not left) splatters on the windows and the cleanliness of his truck, just as I judge a student's ability to get an "A" on another term paper by looking at the grade on the previous attempt.

Yes, Jim. We all form opinions about the stuff we encounter every day, people included. I'm prejudiced against moldy cheese. I don't have to eat it and get sick to know I shouldn't eat it for I have pre-judged it. I am similarly prejudiced against hiring someone who can't spell on a job application. It may be against my self-interests (and I have hired gifted workers who dropped out of HS), but this is in our nature. It has kept us alive for thousands of generations.

I don't assume stupidity because I have my stumbling points too. I assume the value of a person as they are compared to another. Poor spelling on previous stickers? - I had better check to see that my sticker says "inside", not "in Side". My original point was that neither the sign maker nor the gas station's owner cared enough to get it right. I'm now thinking more like stupid here, not careless.

I AM now prejudiced against each of them, the sign maker and the gas station owner (I don't want diesel in my gasoline, thanks). It may save me money as I have a reason to avoid them both. Prejudice in this case may be a good thing.

The fact that your blood is boiling shows that you are pre-judging the people who are judging you and getting angry about it. Let it go and make an effort to show your strengths... people will use those to pre-judge you instead.
.

[Perry Holbrook]

It's North Carolina. What do you expect?

I sure hope you don't really mean that.

Perry

[Dennis McGarry]

Here is my stance on this..

Written works, or works to be printed, Spell and grammar check, and recheck.

If I am replying to a post on-line, (a very loose and informal place) I do not always go back and double check and recheck my posting. If I so chose to, I could use MLA formatting in all my posts and take two hours to complete a single post. The Internet is not a formal outlet and I personally think more people need to lighten up on the level of perfection they expect from it.

If I see an obvious error, I will correct it as I go, but there are times when the fingers move slow/faster then the thought process.

As for the study in trust of a newspaper, I would think that the content more then the spelling would either instill trust or not.

[Mitchell Andrus]

As for the study in trust of a newspaper, I would think that the content more then the spelling would either instill trust or not.

I disagree. (BTW, its 'than') Misspelling the name of a person or town in an article shows a lack of care. How can I then trust the date of an event in the same newspaper or the number of years in a criminal's jail sentence? Misspelling a number can be very un-charming.

I can know if the town is misspelled and forgive it - but how can I know if the date of an event is correct? Fact-check the newspaper? Fact-checking is their job. So is spelling correctly and the use of proper English.

Put another way, would you trust your doctor to spell the name of a drug on a prescription correctly or get the dosage right if a sign in the waiting room had a misspelling on it, even if the content of the sign gave clear instructions? You life may depend on this guy getting it right EVERY time. It wouldn't take me 2 seconds to cancel my appointment and leave. I can't fact-check a doctor nor should I be fearful that I might have to. If his income suffers at the hands of my prejudice, so be it. I'll go where I pre-judge the doctor to be accurate in every instance of his contact with those from whom he makes his income. The burden of instilling trust is his, not mine.

Perception matters. Spelling, grammar and accuracy helps to form my perception.
.

[Stephen Tashiro]

I agree that online posting is a different ball game that printed documents.

We haven't talked about ancient vs modern spelling errors. Computer spell checkers detect if I misspell "them" as "thme", but not if I write it as "the" or "they" or "theme".

I don't agree with the way that my spell checkers want to divide words. I want to write "catfood" instead of "cat food". Some spell checkers object to "internet".

As far as presenting conclusive evidence goes, I don't think we've heard any that says that the general population spelled better thirty years ago than it does now. I think that thirty years ago, the fraction of the general population that was privileged or obligated to produce printed material was smaller than it is today. For the average person, It was a terrible chore to type and mimeograph things. I'm sure sign technology was also less automated. Time consuming tasks probably got more scrutiny.

[Mitchell Andrus]

I think that thirty years ago, the fraction of the general population that was privileged or obligated to produce printed material was smaller than it is today.

More like 100 years ago. We are all forced to send our kids to school through 12th grade as we move away from agrarian avocations where reading, math and science weren't required life-skills. They are now, and the proportion of the population that doesn't understand that is growing.

Some Europeans speak better English than some Americans and they often speak 2 or 3 languages. Why is that?
.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I have some news for you Mitch. The agricultural community has some of the best schools around as they have to be knowledgeable about physics, chemistry, electrical, mechanics, hydralics, carpentry and act as a veterinarian too!

Would you believe the combines you can see running in fields may have GPS and computers that actually control the application of fertilizer based on satellite communications, and crop yields for a very small area.

The days of the dumb farmer left back in the last century. He's as much an intelligent businessman as someone in say New Jersey!

[Mitchell Andrus]

Ken, re-read my post. I said 'weren't'. I should have made it clear that we all now know that we need these skills and you are correct: Mandatory book-learn'in began down the street from the farm and in a place where success or failure can depend on the output of a marginal piece of land, knowledge is key. Not so when you live in an area where you can get a factory job without showing your HS grades.

Righty-tighty.... you're hired.
.

[Belinda Barfield]

Perception matters. Spelling, grammar and accuracy helps to form my perception.

Pardon me for monkeying with your perception here Mitchell, but wouldn't that be, "Spelling, grammar, and accuracy HELP to form my perception."?

I would like to ask a question of the spelling and grammar critics who have been so outspoken in this thread. Has it occurred to any of you that this thread, and others like it, may prevent members from posting valuable information and insights? I, for one, would not like to open myself to your criticism because my spelling and grammar may not be perfect.

I see the point that in a professional setting spelling and grammar are important, but some of the comments have come across as a little harsh.

Yes, most of us judge and are judged, but typically not in such a public manner.

[Mitchell Andrus]

Pardon me for monkeying with your perception here Mitchell, but wouldn't that be, "Spelling, grammar, and accuracy HELP to form my perception."?

OK... On perception:

Perhaps I should have said, "to form my first impression".

When I see the crawl on CNN containing errors that MS Word or a "B" 8th grader would have caught - that's inexcusable and proves my point. Someone doesn't know better, and someone else doesn't care to correct the errors.

This is America, I don't like seeing easily learned rules missed. Hence, the title of the thread. We learn to care in school, especially when the prior generation doesn't know or care. Watch a few episodes of "Cops".

Others offer their error-prone article/sign/instructions to ME for MY consideration (perception), a newspaper article or sign in the shop window for instance. I have no choice but to form an opinion of the writer's/shop owner's competence to get other facts correct. This is not a failing on my part.

How about seeing old food on a fork at a restaurant? If they don't care enough to set up a clean place to eat, do I trust the cleanliness of the kitchen and the safety of the food? As the saying goes: First impressions are lasting and are tough to change. Again, not my fault.

Belinda, I started this thread because of a sticker on a gasoline pump, a professional situation requiring a professional first impression. I was not impressed and I have kept the location of the business private.
.

[Caspar Hauser]

If it's optomist and not optimist, ought it be pessomist? :)

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Since the 1960's public schools have been teaching kids that their lot in life is to be some one else's subordinate. It's the European Post Modernist model. Children are not educated taught how to think and how to self learn. They have been told through 12+ years of school that they must prepare to be [fill in job title] working for some one else.

The Trade schools have been the only real hold out for entrepreneurial spirit, personal accountability, and independence.

I know several people who have come to the USA from other countries where they lived lives of hardship and want. Nearly every one of them has managed to see opportunity where others saw nothing and have made themselves wealthy by living the American Dream - finding something that needed doing and being the guy who does it.

One pair of brothers made themselves multi millionaires in less than ten years from being dish washers and day laborers. They worked like beasts of burden to save their pennies to buy a pizza place in NYC. They slept on the floor ate pizzas and saved every penny to buy a bigger one. They did the same thing eating pizza and living in the back saving money and today they are the largest bail bonds house in the NJ NY CT area owning most the bond offices around. They have branched into funeral homes and other areas where others saw no opportunity. The original idea to get the insurance sales license and go into bail bonds was a thing that just popped into their heads one day observing the parade of people being hauled into police stations. They saw a need.

Another guy observed all that medical waste outside veterinarian offices. Today not five years later he's rolling on dough has a fleet of tricks and is about to purchase his own incinerator.

None of these people had any education. None started with a thin dime.

They simply saw a world of opportunities where raised & kids educated here saw nothing at all. They found something they could do - even if it was a tad un-tasteful and made tons of money doing it while other people were complaining that there are no jobs in their field of preference.

[Mitchell Andrus]

My grandfather, a self-taught immigrant who eventually worked on the team that made the first transistor at Bell Labs, told me:

Find a need and fill it.

Sounds simple enough. Huh?
.

[Neal Clayton]

Since the 1960's public schools have been teaching kids that their lot in life is to be some one else's subordinate. It's the European Post Modernist model. Children are not educated taught how to think and how to self learn. They have been told through 12+ years of school that they must prepare to be [fill in job title] working for some one else.



the 50s and prior weren't a magical golden era when everyone was their own boss. people were always taught basic skills in schools, and little more.

the only difference in now and then, from the pizza restaurant example, is now if you want to open a local establishment, you have to first compete against the billions of mcdonald's.

if anything post secondary education in the past 10-20 years has funneled people more toward what will make them money, versus what will make them happy. hence the explosion in consulting jobs, which takes engineering students out of college and puts them to work not making a better sprocket, but showing GM and Ford how to make a worse sprocket and how that'll bump next quarter's earnings by 2 cents a share.

[Eric DeSilva]

The Trade schools have been the only real hold out for entrepreneurial spirit, personal accountability, and independence.

By "trade schools" surely you don't mean vocational/technical schools? Having seen the bargaining with local businesses that sets the curricula for those places, I'd argue they are even more focused on providing grist for the mill.

I'm also not sure I fully understand your point about the uneducated self-starters. I sort of feel like you are staking out the view that the US educational system beats out of people the ability to see the larger picture or to take risks to seize on opportunities. That view, if you forgive my French, is horse hockey. For each uneducated self-starter who formed his own trash hauling business, I can show you an educated scientist who bucked convention to find a new theory. Or an educated doctor who took a risk on an unconventional treatment and saved a life. Or an educated MBA who saw a market segment and built a business around it.

Having dirt under your fingernails doesn't make you any better--or any worse--than someone with a sheepskin.

And, yes, I did pay special attention to my spelling in this thread.

[Neal Clayton]

By "trade schools" surely you don't mean vocational/technical schools? Having seen the bargaining with local businesses that sets the curricula for those places, I'd argue they are even more focused on providing grist for the mill.



and don't forget the ginormous profits for snap on on those 5000 dollar tool boxes, that they get a contract for right after the passing grade on their final courses.

either way, unfortunately, some people's political assumptions make them more comfortable than their education level.

[Carlos Alden]

Since the 1960's public schools have been teaching kids that their lot in life is to be some one else's subordinate. It's the European Post Modernist model. Children are not educated taught how to think and how to self learn. They have been told through 12+ years of school that they must prepare to be [fill in job title] working for some one else.

Huh?

I agree with you that many immigrants can see, and take advantage of, opportunities in the States that are often overlooked, and I agree with you that many native-born Americans don't want to do the work involved to build something. However, your assertion about public schools is really a broad and vague generalization.

My two kids just graduated from public high school. I was very involved in their education (lots of volunteering in classrooms, PTA president for a year) and have had many criticisms of their education, but being trained "to be some one else's subordinate" is something I have not seen at all. Do you have specific things and events you are thinking about?

Carlos

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I can show you an educated scientist who bucked convention to find a new theory

As a slob, a wage slave, carrying and fetching in his master's castle.
Scientists are the penultimate pretentious servant. They live soft cushy lives playing with their bugs and chemicals and materials but when push and shove come together they are all just like the guy on the assembly line. They take orders and do what they are told.



Or an educated doctor who took a risk on an unconventional treatment and saved a life.

You will find (once you set the rhetoric aside and look for such instances) that Physicians tend as a group to never do things that are unconventional. Their training has taught them that way is anathema.




Or an educated MBA who saw a market segment and built a business around it.I wouldn't give you a tinker's damn for an MBA from any school other than maybe Wharton and one or two others. The MBA for the most part is a joke.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

My two kids

I can not in good faith engage in a discussion in which I am impeaching the public schools for betrayal of our youth and at the same time deal with anecdotal material from a proud parent.

You do see the difficulty don't you?
On the one hand there is a some what esoteric discussion about the post modernist movement's invasion of our schools and on the other is a parent who is very proud of what his or her children have accomplished.
It's a recipe for trouble.

[Bob Vavricka]

[QUOTE=Cliff Rohrabacher;1242864]As a slob, a wage slave, carrying and fetching in his master's castle.
Scientists are the penultimate pretentious servant.
----------------------------------------

Just curious--if "scientists are the penultimate pretentious servant." Who do you consider the ultimate?
Bob V.

[Carlos Alden]

I can not in good faith engage in a discussion in which I am impeaching the public schools for betrayal of our youth and at the same time deal with anecdotal material from a proud parent.

You do see the difficulty don't you?
On the one hand there is a some what esoteric discussion about the post modernist movement's invasion of our schools and on the other is a parent who is very proud of what his or her children have accomplished.
It's a recipe for trouble.

No, I don't see the difficulty. I don't know what in the world you are talking about. If you don't want to respond to my post, that's fine, but don't blame it on some fantasy.

By the way, you didn't accurately read what I said. I never indicated anything about being proud of my kids or their accomplishments.

If you are up for a discussion I'd still like to hear what experiences you have had that lead you to this conclusion.

Carlos

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

No, I don't see the difficulty. I don't know what in the world you are talking about. If you don't want to respond to my post, that's fine, but don't blame it on some fantasy.

I am talking about something that is entirely unrelated to you, and your kids, and has no bearing on them, their performance, or how you feel about it.

You made it all personal.

I will not put myself in the position of attempting a dialog with someone who does that.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

[QUOTE=Cliff Rohrabacher;1242864]As a slob, a wage slave, carrying and fetching in his master's castle.
Scientists are the penultimate pretentious servant.
----------------------------------------

Just curious--if "scientists are the penultimate pretentious servant." Who do you consider the ultimate?
Bob V.

Good question. I'm unsure that it should be answered.

[Carlos Alden]

Cliff:

Okay, I see where you are coming from. Have a nice time with this.

Carlos

[Neal Clayton]

As a slob, a wage slave, carrying and fetching in his master's castle.
Scientists are the penultimate pretentious servant. They live soft cushy lives playing with their bugs and chemicals and materials but when push and shove come together they are all just like the guy on the assembly line. They take orders and do what they are told.

there are no kings left in the world (outside of middle eastern oil strongholds and north korea).



You will find (once you set the rhetoric aside and look for such instances) that Physicians tend as a group to never do things that are unconventional. Their training has taught them that way is anathema.
one page ago you ridicule education. now you're qualified to critique physicists? can't have it both ways.



I wouldn't give you a tinker's damn for an MBA from any school other than maybe Wharton and one or two others. The MBA for the most part is a joke.do you have an MBA?


---------------------------

look, we get it. you're here to play the part laid out in the morning talking point email by tiptoeing that "no politics" line as far as you think you can get away with. but i'll make you a wager...you won't convert anyone, ever. so what's the point?

there's lots of cesspools of political banter on the internet, why try to wedge them in where they're obviously not wanted?

[Eric DeSilva]

Since you appear to believe you are the last man in America capable of educated thought, I doubt I'll convince you of anything. But I actually know some scientists. And some doctors. And they really don't act the way you hypothesize. Can't speak for MBAs, but the one guy I knew from Wharton was actually quite a tool.

I think you need to get out more--less time looking in the mirror and pretending you are Ernest Hemingway.

[Stan Johnsey]

Overall, school are doing a pretty good job. I am an old fart, 62, I remember what schools were like in the good old days. I have also been a public school teacher at the grade school, junior high and high school level plus taught some at the college level. I am married to a teacher and my daughter just graduated valdictorian and is off to college. I know a little about the situation.

You can get a decent education in public school but you have to do your part. Most (2/3rds) of the kids who go to the elite colleges, Ivy League, MIT, Stanford, Rice, etc. come out of the public school system.

It would be nice to have something like the ability grouping of the old days where we could take the bright students and run with 'em. Other countries do.

[Greg Peterson]

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

The best buildings, books and teachers are all for naught if the parents are not thoroughly engaged.

The public education system gets more than their fair share of criticism, much of which is not constructive.

I would not want to be a teacher. Ever more it is becoming a thankless job.

[Neal Clayton]

Overall, school are doing a pretty good job. I am an old fart, 62, I remember what schools were like in the good old days. I have also been a public school teacher at the grade school, junior high and high school level plus taught some at the college level. I am married to a teacher and my daughter just graduated valdictorian and is off to college. I know a little about the situation.

You can get a decent education in public school but you have to do your part. Most (2/3rds) of the kids who go to the elite colleges, Ivy League, MIT, Stanford, Rice, etc. come out of the public school system.

It would be nice to have something like the ability grouping of the old days where we could take the bright students and run with 'em. Other countries do.

they still do that here. call it "advanced placement". which is why central high in little rock is consistently one of the top 20 public schools in the nation.

[Dan Mages]

Here is a sign I found at a local building supply store. Given the makeup of the area where the store is located, I would not be surprised if the author's native language is written in Cyrillic. Even so, I am surprised nobody there caught the blatant mistakes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/DanMages/MISC/07-06-06_1933.jpg

I purchase many of my books from the Everyman's Library series. One of the great features of this series is that the books are published in the original edition or the author's favorite edition. One example I found is the works of Orson Welles. He was comma happy and bent the rules of grammar on multiple occasions. In this book (I think it was Animal Farm), they went back to an early edition that was not bastardized by the grammar correcting pen of an editor. The point here is that we should not look at grammar and spelling as rigid rules, but as guidelines. Do your best to follow them, but don't kill yourself over them.

Here is another good read on spelling from my favorite author, Mark Twain.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Alphabet_and_Simplified_Spelling

Dan

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Here is a sign I found at a local building supply store. Given the makeup of the area where the store is located, I would not be surprised if the author's native language is written in Cyrillic. Even so, I am surprised nobody there caught the blatant mistakes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v647/DanMages/MISC/07-06-06_1933.jpg

I purchase many of my books from the Everyman's Library series. One of the great features of this series is that the books are published in the original edition or the author's favorite edition. One example I found is the works of Orson Welles. He was comma happy and bent the rules of grammar on multiple occasions. In this book (I think it was Animal Farm), they went back to an early edition that was not bastardized by the grammar correcting pen of an editor. The point here is that we should not look at grammar and spelling as rigid rules, but as guidelines. Do your best to follow them, but don't kill yourself over them.

Here is another good read on spelling from my favorite author, Mark Twain.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Alphabet_and_Simplified_Spelling

Dan

I would suggest that there is no proof the person who printed the sign went to public or private schools.

[Stan Johnsey]

How many of y'all have been in a public school since you graduated from high school?

[Greg Peterson]

How many of y'all have been in a public school since you graduated from high school?

I've attended numerous school functions in years past.

Without parents being fully and actively engaged daily with their children's education, public or private, teachers are fighting a losing battle.

[Stan Johnsey]

Our best are as good as their best.