Bob savage1 CNC start up advice [Archive] - Sawmill Creek Woodworking Community

James Jaragosky

10-17-2009, 8:51 PM

Bob as I see it you can either find a fantastic deal on a used machine that has all the features you want or purchase a new machine that has less than everything on your wish list.
·A cnc router is big, heavy, loud, and messy.
(1)Do you have the room to accommodate this type of thing?
·Plywood is big and heavy.
(2)Can you haul this material around easily?
(3)Do you have storage for the material?
(4)Do you have room for all the machinery that you will need to build cabinets?
(5)Do you have room to assemble the cabinets?
(6)Will you have a space just for finishing?
·Because finishing anything in the same area as the cutting machinery is a pain in the neck. Dust gets in the finish and it feels like sandpaper.
(7)When you finish one cabinet, do you have storage for it while you are constructing and finishing the rest?

If you are just a hobbyist with aspirations to make a dream or hobby into a business someday, then the answer to most of these questions is probably no. especially if all you have as a workspace is a two-car garage I have a 3-car garage and I have no room to effectively build anything. In addition, finishing is a challenge.

My suggestion is start out with a smaller machine and see where it takes you. if a bigger machine is in your future you will be able to make the money for one with the smaller machine. a 3 head machine or one with a tool changer is nice to have but unless you are a production shop you will find that that it is unnecessary, you can keep up with the tool changes without a problem. same goes for a vacuum table while very nice there are other options. a spindle would be grand but a Porter Cable router is quite capable of accomplishing your goals. Although noisier. Can you cut a 4x8 sheet in half and double it up to cut both halves at once; for box cabinets this would seem very possible.

Do not let your want for the perfect machine keep you from moving on your dreams. like I said; get what you can easily afford and let that machine pay for your dream machine. I say easily afford because there are so many unexpected costs associated with starting this type of hobby or business that you will be glad that you gave yourself the extra cushion.
A laser will put a much smaller financial dent in your wallet. It takes less support equipment and less space to run a successful operation.
Just my .008

Bob Savage

10-17-2009, 9:19 PM

Whoah, my own thread!!! :)

James, thank you very much for your input. It's greatly appreciated and all of your points and questions are well taken.

You are correct about this being a hobby, initially, with the dream of having an income producing business. I am working in a 2 car garage that aside from a washer and dryer (may need to do something about dust control for them), will be dedicated to the workshop, however, I absolutely do not have separate work areas for cutting, finishing, etc.

My want for the spindle is due to 1) That many have advised that if I'm cutting plywood primarily (still not sure on that, either), it's a must and 2) It's quieter. Since this is going to be at my home, and I'm not going to noise reduction extremes other than closing up air leaks, etc., 15-20 db less amplitude is going to keep my family happy.

The thing is, if the difference between the "dream machine" and something smaller with a router instead of spindle is only $5k, I just won't be able to bring myself to compromise.

Obviously, you recognize the internal struggle I'm in right now, otherwise you wouldn't have started this thread.

You've been very helpful, and everything you say is being taken under serious consideration. Please keep it coming.

Oh, and I don't want a Chinese machine. :)

Bob Savage

10-17-2009, 9:39 PM

... you've really got me rethinking this, James. I'll be $30k into this by the time I'm finished if I go with the CAMaster "dream machine."

James Jaragosky

10-17-2009, 10:10 PM

... you've really got me rethinking this, James. I'll be $30k into this by the time I'm finished if I go with the CAMaster "dream machine."
More things that cost money:
·Joiner (at least 6”)
·Table-saw (for cabinets you will need a good one at least 1000.00 for a good one)
·Band saw
·Router-table (you will need one of these as well because some things will be easier this way).
·Planer
·Oscillating sander
·Quality work bench
·Bench grinder (for sharpening bits chisels and scrapers)
·Air compressor
·Air nailers
Biscuit joiner

James Jaragosky

10-17-2009, 10:21 PM

Other thoughts
How’s the lighting in your shop? I spent over 600.00 on mine and still need focused light sources for doing proper finish work.
Clamps, How are you set? you can spend hundreds on these; I only have around 10 to 20 and I never have enough of the right size that I need at any given time. I could use 15 of each size. Then you have to store them! This is a whole area of discussion in its self.
How about solvents and other flammables; where you going to store them?
You may also need a computer just for the CNC depending on your setup.

I am not trying to talk you out of anything. I am just passing on what I have learned.

Keith Outten

10-18-2009, 12:39 AM

I cut plywood on my ShopBot at home that has a PC router motor.
I also cut plywood on the ShopBot at CNU with a spindle.
When you cut plywood it doesn't make any difference whether you use a router or spindle, the noise the bit makes when its cutting drowns out the noise of the machine by a long shot.

The shop at CNU has:

1 PRTAlpha 48x96.
1 HF 2hp dust collector.
1 Ridgid 5" ROS.
1 $29.00 ShopVac.
1 home made router table. Corian top on a Black and Decker Workmate.
1 small PC pancake air compressor. (no air tools)
1 24" by 48" workbench on wheels.
1 bench top Delta drill press.
1 belt sander (1" by 30")
1 battery drill with about 15 drill bits.
1 dremel tool.
1 Bosch Jig Saw.
1 Makita circular saw.
1 measuring tape.
12 router bits.
6 spring clamps.
1 computer.
A few hand tools...screwdrivers and wrenches.
That's it!

I make about $150,000.00 worth of signs per year in this little bare bones shop which is a two car garage that I have to share....my boss parks his golf cart inside the shop every night.

We have a laser engraver that is in my office but I don't consider it a shop tool.
.

james mcgrew

10-18-2009, 9:31 AM

one of my early shops was a slot 10x20 in a storage rental unit and the back of a pickup truck, yes there was no cnc. but where there is a will there is a way.

actually Robert our shop manager is an interesting story, when i first met him he was building the library desk for the lexington county sc main public library, the desk is over 48' long in a 32' radius i watched him build it in components and each day carry that thing out of a small shop that was a third in floor space as he needed in order to set it up each day,

he would set it up and take it apart each day. i thought now that is woodwork!! i asked him to join up with me and that was 14 years ago

my grandma once told me how i would know i was doing the right thing! she said it would be awful uncomfortable but my gut would fight for it.
(kinda like getting married, having children)

please go see some machines, talk to owners, they are in your area, go see james machine, he is one heck of an interesting fellow!! people who are into cnc love showing them off, i am challenged daily by this. i would love to have built my business by simply writing a check but unfortunatly it did not work that way, one tool one job at a time, jobs paid for tools and i only finaced the two largest ones, everybody pays something, and on the other hand there are some who think and say i have it goin on to this i say i have rarely done the same project twice and if there had not been a need for truly custom work i would not be in business.

i call it "Falling down uphill"

Bob Savage

10-18-2009, 11:27 AM

Awesome info guys! I *am* going to make this happen, I'm just not sure exactly how I'm going about it yet. I think I will, however, go with a router to save $2k+ initially. If, as has been alluded to, I start making the money to justify the spindle, I'll get one.

I've got a garage full of tools already, just not necessarilly everything I need.

I do want to keep the dust to a minimum and would like some advice on that. I was thinking of getting this: http://www.toolking.com/deltamachinery_50-760.aspx

Any thoughts on the Delta, or something less expensive? Oh, and I would imagine that Delta will be at least as loud as a router.

I've got "a check" coming on October 30th that's going to cover the equipment, so I have a little time before the cash is in my hands. Of course, I don't have to spend right away, but I'm going to be aweful impatient once I have it... :)

Keith Outten

10-18-2009, 12:55 PM

Bob Savage

10-18-2009, 12:59 PM

Consider buying the Harbor Frieight 2hp DC at $189.00, then scrap the bags and use an exterior chip box setup like I use at CNU. The chip box is actually the shipping box that the ShopBot came in, I just painted it white and installed a 6" dryer vent for the exhaust.
.

Thanks Keith. You're referring to this guy, and just sticking a box in place of the bag? http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=97869

I like the price. Is there going to be a significant difference in dust in the garage, based on the 5 micron vs. 1 micron capabilities?

By the way, I was struggling through Aspire yesterday, watched the available tutorials, etc. This morning I was finally able to create something that included toolpaths. It's been fun looking at the time changes by using different tools, more tools/paths, etc.

I can certainly see how one can be cutting parts quickly on one of these.

James Jaragosky

10-18-2009, 2:06 PM

Bob Savage

10-18-2009, 3:01 PM

Keith he was talking about building cabinets, I really feel that he will need a few more tools than are needed to run a sign operation.

Hi James,

As you've probably noticed by now, at this particular moment I'm nothing more than a dreamer without certain direction. Yes, I'd LOVE to do the cabinet and woodworking like Jim has done, in my own house. I'd also like to find a niche selling said quality items, but I also fully understand the time consuming reality of even learning that craft, let alone the equipment and space investment.

If I were to prioritize my initial goals, they would be:

1) Sign Making
2) Speaker cabinets and amplifier head shells
3) nick nacks that look like fun to play around with
4) Kitchen cabinets for my house

I believe the first two are attainable within reasonable amounts of time, and reasonable machine and tool sets. Number three is so broad as to have very little meaning, but could entail cutting some guitar bodies, fun stuff for kids, whatever.

And finally, I have a friend who's been a cabinet maker for many years, albeit he's gotten out of the fabrication business and moved into carpentry and cabinet installation over the last few years. That is to say, I realize I'm not going to be cutting cabinets overnight because the learning curve is steep and as you've clearly pointed out, a lot of tooling and space is necessary to pull it off.

Please don't misunderstand me, as I do appreciate your input, however, while I'm choking over a $20k machine and that probably won't change, I cannot allow analysis paralysis because 5 years from now, I'll still be stressing out over it, without having cut a single part.

I'm not buying a Chinese machine. The CAMaster and Shopbot are the only two machines I'm looking at now. I'm going to call Joey on Monday to see what he suggests and if there's an acceptable solution as far as machine sizing, etc., I'll buy one. If not, I'll go with a smaller Shopbot.

The smell of wood shavings in my garage beckons me. I must make it happen. :)

Gary Campbell

10-18-2009, 3:48 PM

Bob...

Have you considered a part time, weekend or evening job building cabinets or signs? Many shops will be happy to take on a low or no pay "apprentice" that is willing to work and learn. The cutting process of either trade is probably 25% of the learning curve. It is a much shorter process to learn from an accomplished tradesperson, than the trial and error of being self taught.

Any monies received can be earmarked for tool purchase. Even tho it can be done first, in most cases the CNC is near the last tool most of us purchase. There are many tools that are must have for cabinet making whether you have a CNC or not. You might want to start with a saw, jointer, planer, etc and let products that you sell pay for the CNC. You can also make them and give them to family and friends. This is a good way to get the word out about what you do.

James Jaragosky

10-18-2009, 3:51 PM

Hi James,

As you've probably noticed by now, at this particular moment I'm nothing more than a dreamer without certain direction. Yes, I'd LOVE to do the cabinet and woodworking like Jim has done, in my own house. I'd also like to find a niche selling said quality items, but I also fully understand the time consuming reality of even learning that craft, let alone the equipment and space investment.

If I were to prioritize my initial goals, they would be:

1) Sign Making
2) Speaker cabinets and amplifier head shells
3) nick nacks that look like fun to play around with
4) Kitchen cabinets for my house

I believe the first two are attainable within reasonable amounts of time, and reasonable machine and tool sets. Number three is so broad as to have very little meaning, but could entail cutting some guitar bodies, fun stuff for kids, whatever.

And finally, I have a friend who's been a cabinet maker for many years, albeit he's gotten out of the fabrication business and moved into carpentry and cabinet installation over the last few years. That is to say, I realize I'm not going to be cutting cabinets overnight because the learning curve is steep and as you've clearly pointed out, a lot of tooling and space is necessary to pull it off.

Please don't misunderstand me, as I do appreciate your input, however, while I'm choking over a $20k machine and that probably won't change, I cannot allow analysis paralysis because 5 years from now, I'll still be stressing out over it, without having cut a single part.

I'm not buying a Chinese machine. The CAMaster and Shopbot are the only two machines I'm looking at now. I'm going to call Joey on Monday to see what he suggests and if there's an acceptable solution as far as machine sizing, etc., I'll buy one. If not, I'll go with a smaller Shopbot.

The smell of wood shavings in my garage beckons me. I must make it happen. :)
Bob I have not mentioned a Chinese machine in the last several posts, although you do remind me each time that you are not interested in one.I got the message several posts ago.

I only broke down my assessment of your situation and goals based on the posts that you have made and the reply's that others have given in return.

I was not trying to talk you into or out of anything. My intent was to help you evaluate the reality of what you are suggesting. You seen to be a bit light on direction and planning; yet you are considering purchasing a 20k machine to accomplish something, but you do not seem sure exactly what.
In my opinion, that seems a recipe for failure.
Desire can take someone a long way it will help you overcome obstacles that others will tell you can't be overcome. Passion is also another trait that will help you achieve goals that others find impossible to obtain. A well thought plan would enhance your possibility for success. Make the plan then purchase the equipment, not the other way around.
Everything I have written is only is my opinion.
Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best, and look forward to hearing of your success.

james mcgrew

10-18-2009, 3:51 PM

hey gary welcome to the creek!!!

jim

Bob Savage

10-18-2009, 4:45 PM

Gary, thank you very much for the advise and suggestion. I really hadn't considered an evening/weekend apprenticeship, but that sounds like a very good idea.

I got the message several posts ago.

As did I regarding tooling and shop setup costs.

I only broke down my assessment of your situation and goals based on the posts that you have made and the reply's that others have given in return.

Understood.

You seen to be a bit light on direction and planning; yet you are considering purchasing a 20k machine to accomplish something, but you do not seem sure exactly what.

If this turned out to be nothing more than a fullfilling hobby making a small amount of expendible income while staying with my IT carreer, I would consider it a success. A $20k machine is not going to be a part of this. That much, I have decided.

In my opinion, that seems a recipe for failure.

Some years back, I decided it was time to release an album of my own. Despite the fact that I had the skillsets to write, produce and engineer the album, I also knew that there were many requirements that would cost in the thousands. While the thought of at the least, making back all the money I spent producing this album was a nice one, I also did the math determining the number of copies it would take to acheive this ROI. In the end, it really didn't matter. It was something I wanted, perhaps needed to do, and if I didn't make back a dime of the money I spent, it did not matter. To this day, I am still giving away the CD's...

The shop in my garage is another one of these "albums" for me. I am quite busy managing a successful career in IT, and while I would prefer to be in manufacturing (I do have a background in manufacturing and assembly, by the way), if this hobby never makes me a dime, as long as I'm having a good time, it's worth it.

A well thought plan would enhance your possibility for success. Make the plan then purchase the equipment, not the other way around.

I do not disagree with the first statement. My plan is to have fun. Even without machinery, I'm already accomplishing this by playing around with the Aspire demo. Today I was successful in creating a sign using a logo I designed for an electrician friend who's self employed, and even figured out how to deal with tool paths. The thought of experimenting with cheap materials and eventually giving him a nice sign for his business is an exciting one. I have far too many ideas to execute on all of them, but I'm also not quiting my job and starting a business without a plan. What I'm doing is spending more money than many would likely deem wise, on a hobby. If I find a niche or two and can make some money, all the better.

Everything I have written is only is my opinion.
Whatever you decide to do, I wish you the best, and look forward to hearing of your success.

Understood, and again, I'm not trying to be argumentative. I am expressing my opinion as well.

Where I could fail is if I were to buy all this equipment, become frustrated trying to learn how to use it and quickly get bored... selling it all for a loss.

I have yet to be challenged with something where I have failed, and a spring chicken, I am not. This gives me a positive outlook on my future hobby.

Thanks again for the input, James. It may not seem like it, but I do appreciate it.

Guy Mathews

10-18-2009, 5:34 PM

Bob,

I have been watching this thread from the beginning. I love the threads that are titled, "Which CNC machine is best", "What software should I use?" Yada, yada, yada. I try to stay clear of recommending any one machine or any one piece of software. For laser scanning I recommend, endorse and recieve compensation for Polhemus Fastscan if I happen to stear a client their way. As for the CNC machines, as I have replied in a previous thread,

These threads about "Which CNC machine should I get?" always seem to drift off the original question of "What do you want to do with it?" This happens because we all have our favorite machine or we have been doing it for a long time and we just figure everyone should know what we are talking about.

As far as I am concerned any machine you get "needs" to do 4 things.

1. Run code accurately.

2. Have enough power in the steppers and the spindle/router to run the code accurately.

3. Meet the size requirements for the work that you will be doing on it.

4. Be within your budget.

Anything after that is called "wants"

Anyway, I am digressing from my original intent. That is to say that I admire your attitude.

I too have taken many chances, some were and are sucessful, most were failures. I have a number of online endeavors going on that keep me busy, as well as a fulltime job programming and executing custom furniture parts on 3 different CNC machines. A ShopBot PRS Alpha with A axis, a CAMaster 510 ATC with recoil lathe, and a 10 spindle CNC Carving machine. Each uses its own Post Processor and require 3 different codes to run. I have been doing 4th axis programming from the beginning and find it incredibly easy even without my CAM software. I could just as easily generate the toolpaths I need for a custom wing on an arm chair using CUT 3D from Aspire, Parts Wizard from Shop Bot or Visual Mill from Mecsoft. The secret is not that you have 4th axis, the secret is that you know what to do with it when the time comes. This holds true for you as well. It does not matter if you have the best and the greatest that is out there. What is important is that you know what to do with them when you have it.

Jim M. made a great point. "...one of my early shops was a slot 10x20 in a storage rental unit and the back of a pickup truck, yes there was no cnc. but where there is a will there is a way."

I am not sure, but I am taking a guess that the fellow in the avatar is you. If it isn't, it still shows that you are not too concerned that people may think it's you. If it is, it does the aforementioned, and it also shows that you are quite willing to do anything to achieve an end result.

That being said, follow your dreams and your desires. If you make a mistake, it is yours to make. It will be much better then sitting around 20 years from now wondering if you should have.

If you search these the threads within CNC, you will find that your questions have been asked and answered many, many times. There are a small group of people that continously push the machines they are comfortable with. There is nothing wrong with that. It was what they like. There is a small group of people that continuously push certain software. Nothing wrong with that either.
No matter what you decide, be it a Chinese Machine or an AMERICAN BUILT MACHINE, you can count on one thing. That is the help of the small group of people that have their favorite machines and software, plus the many other wonderful people here at The Creek and at other forums like The Creek.

Keith said it best one day in another thread...

...SawMill Creek isn't typical of online forums. It's been more like a family struggling along, growing and adjusting as the road has been turning and twisting.

This was taken out of context from the original thread but it rings of truth. There are times it may seem like we are trying to rattle one another's cages, but rarely is that the case. We are a family. Family members make mistakes, and other family members will be there to help them.

Follow your dream Bob, there are no mistakes if you take one day at a time and be true to yourself and those around you. No mistakes, just obstacles.

Good luck on your decision and fell free to email me if you have any questions.

Guy

Bob Savage

10-18-2009, 8:04 PM

Guy,

Thank you for the kind words, well wishes and your input/advice. I've been admiring, and showing my wife the work you post on the forum for a while now.

My avatar is actually Jim Carrey, from Ace Ventura - Pet Detective, but your observations/comments related to the picture are spot on.

Thanks again, and you can rest assured I'll be reaching out to you for tips and tricks. :cool:

Gary Campbell

10-18-2009, 10:15 PM

Bob...

In this current economy, there are a lot of bargains out there on used equipment. You might look for a multi tool. Some of these have 3 or more tools on one base with wheels. Many brands are very robust pieces. A lot of work can be done with a small footprint.

Jim...

Thanks, but please be nice to an old guy, or I will tell everyone where you hide your case of SB blue spraypaint! :)

Jay Brewer

10-18-2009, 10:23 PM

Hi Bob, I have been building custom cabinets for about 6 years now. I have every tool I need to build cabinets. I have shyed away from CNC until recently. I dont do enough work to justify it, I just want one. I can see it opening up new ways to make money. I look at every purchase as an investment in my business, and how quick I could sell it if the need arises. This is why I try buy high quality, well sought after equipment. You only cry once when you buy quality equipment.

I started my search for a CNC looking at the sub $10k machine. Now im up to the $20k to $25K like you are. To me and my business, this is the machine that will do the job I want for a long time. I will not buy a machine ( and settle for a lesser machine ) until I save the money to buy the machine I want the first time. Hopefull the beginning of next year.

Either way you go, I wish you the best of luck with your new venture.

Joey Jarrard

10-18-2009, 11:17 PM

Whats up man, how's the salt life?

Bob,
There is some great info here. You are doing your homework so you will be just fine.

Ed Lang

10-19-2009, 9:38 AM

I didn't see an answer to your question about dust collection... 1 micron is not small enough. Think cyclone type systems or vent outside. Your lungs are not something to play around with. Google Bill Pentz and do your homework on the dust collection end of things as well.

Best wishes!
e

Bob Savage

10-19-2009, 10:23 AM

Hey Joey! Let's talk, soon.

I didn't see an answer to your question about dust collection... 1 micron is not small enough. Think cyclone type systems or vent outside. Your lungs are not something to play around with. Google Bill Pentz and do your homework on the dust collection end of things as well.

Best wishes!
e

Ed, thank you very much for the input! It looks like I have a lot of reading to do, but this looks promising:

http://www.wynnenv.com/9e300bl_conversion.htm

Bob Savage

10-19-2009, 11:24 AM

you can count on one thing. That is the help of the small group of people that have their favorite machines and software, plus the many other wonderful people here at The Creek and at other forums like The Creek.

There are times it may seem like we are trying to rattle one another's cages, but rarely is that the case. We are a family. Family members make mistakes, and other family members will be there to help them.

It occured to me that I meant to comment on this, but forgot.

One of the things that I've found very encouraging is exactly what you've stated. There's something that I call "the journeyman complex," found many times within trade unions, where senior level craftsmen/mechanics withold "trade secrets" with the attitude that everybody should learn the "tricks of the trade" via hard knocks.

I've been fortunate to not have encountered this much throughout the various industries I've been in, but I've seen it quite a bit.

The comradery and willingness to help others that is extended by the experienced individuals on these forums is absolutely inspiring. Admittedly, I often become soured with the attitudes and self centered perspectives of many of the people I encounter on a day to day basis both in person and on the web. Hanging out here and observing (and hopefully participating in, eventually) the family, as you've stated, is great not only from the perspective of gaining knowledge, but from the human perspective.

james mcgrew

10-19-2009, 12:13 PM

bob, i have told this story many times but when you said the work "family" quotin guy i decided to write it down.

i was to buy a new machine from josh at camaster november 17 20007, i went to the bank got a cashiers check for the whole thing, that night i found a 4x8 on ebay in bowling green kentucky called the fellow he agreed if i paid the buy it now price i could come get it. it was a camaster 408 built in 1999 and had windows 98 and dos technology for a controller and 1/2 step motors, the price was pretty good and even with new motors, drives and controller i would make out pretty good. it was a camaster and the quality was my last concern. i called josh and told hime what i was thinking of doing and if i did this could i pay him to retrofit it and where would we be with support. he said somthing i am sure his dad taught him " jim, i would love to sell you a new machine, but i would rather have you in the family" at that point i did not really under stand how far that would go but i was ok with it. within a month (machine worked well right away) bill had come to columbia on his way to deliver a machine to wilmington. him and joey spent an entire day in my shop (only took an hour to change the controller) we made friends that day, they enjoyed teaching me as much as i enjoyed learning. it was obvious they were happy with there place in this. a week later i got an opportunity to cut signs for an apartment complex out of hdu foam, (did not have a clue what that was) called bill, (his background in this is signs not cabinetry) he wrote the initial files for me and we emailed them back and forth for a week untill i got proficient enough on my own. i made enough money in those first few weeks to pay for that machine so i ordered another initially a tool changer (now that scared me!!) but bill talked about wanting to develop the x3 three head machine so we changed course and went that route. three head technology was not new it had just never been affordable and well built at this size machine. i trusted bill with this, as time went on joey, paul and frank have continued to grow camaster while maintaining all of the designs and neccessary improvements to the machine, i have several really good pieces of equipment in my shop, one of them is the williams and hussy moulder developed a long time ago and still the same workhorse as it was originally designed. i feel the same way about my cnc from bill. recently i sold that first machine i miss it and now that i am adding the lathe i do not need the smalller one i am having built so i see me ordering another next week to replace the 408, i will say this once you have used a multihead ot atc machine a single just wont do!!

threads like this one help for a lot reasons, it helps the original poster and creates the data base for those yet to come as far as competition well "one can be first or one can be last"!!!

jim

Bob Savage

10-19-2009, 12:20 PM

Jim, you're KILLING ME!

I need to bring the cost down, not up, so don't get me drooling over a tool changer. :) I'm already in conflict now, because this morning my wife said "if your new job pays more, just get the 'big' machine." Urgh...

I'm planning on speaking with Joey soon. I want to be part of the family.

Guy Mathews

10-19-2009, 12:24 PM

"i will say this once you have used a multihead ot atc machine a single just wont do!!"

Jim, you hit that one right on the head!!!!!!!!

I hate changing bits on my SB!!!!!!! Still love the machine, just hate changing the bits! My ATC has spoiled me.

I even have the T 0 command in my post processor to put the bit away just so I do not have to do it at the end of the day!!!

Guy

james mcgrew

10-19-2009, 12:29 PM

you can see my older machine (now sold) in the back ground.

jim

Gary Campbell

10-19-2009, 4:17 PM

Bob...
Ed makes a very good point concerning the dust collection.

Joey!...

Good man! Nice to hear from you. Record lows here. (60)

Bob Savage

10-19-2009, 5:08 PM

Bob...
Ed makes a very good point concerning the dust collection.

Absolutely, and as somebody with Asthma, I am not taking this lightly. Lots more reading to do...

Bob Savage

10-19-2009, 7:29 PM

Ed, thanks again for the dust collection tip, although here I am spending more money!!! I need to be careful with my lungs. While I'd love to get the Harbor Freight system with the retrofit filter, for some reason I'm still concerned so I've been looking around for a "real" cyclone system. This seems like a good system for the price. Any thoughts?

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/TEMP142CX.html

Joey Jarrard

10-20-2009, 6:34 AM

Bob Savage

10-20-2009, 8:15 AM

Like the one from HF this one will do the trick it will capture more due to the HP and the 14" prop will pull more cfm's this will allow you to zone it out and run sanders, planers,ect... using dampers to shut off unused zones. I think this is a great buy in that you in the future will not have to buy another dust system to just add one machine or some hand tools. just lay out the system on paper first. add drops or cap of the line where drops will be no prob. also for that money you can not beat collecting 99.98% of all wood chips and dust particles that enter the collector.

Hope this helps

Thanks Joey!

I know you're busy, but also wanted to make sure my e-mail wasn't getting blocked by your SPAM filter (sent you a message Sunday).

I'd like to talk further about my CNC options, but figured I'd start with the e-mail on Sunday. I can give you a call later.

Nicholas Bukky

10-20-2009, 9:11 AM

Bob,
Sounds like you got the green light from the boss!!!

I say jump in with booth feet!!:)

Nick

Joey Jarrard

10-20-2009, 9:45 AM

Email got by me I did get it but over looked the question and its no prob for a router.

Bob Savage

10-20-2009, 9:51 AM

Bob,
Sounds like you got the green light from the boss!!!

I say jump in with booth feet!!:)

Nick

Hahahah, well, my initial reaction was exactly that, but since I manage the money, I have to make sure I don't get us into a pickle. We're a single income family.

Email got by me I did get it but over looked the question and its no prob for a router.

Excellent! I'll call you later today so we can put some scope around this. Thanks Joey.

Bob Savage

10-20-2009, 1:45 PM

Alrightee then... looks like there's a plan. I'm witholding all information until some money leaves my acct. :)

Thanks to everybody for the input. Looking forward to making some wood chips... now, to plan for the hookup of the cyclone...

Nicholas Bukky

10-20-2009, 2:56 PM

Bob..... finally you threw a a Jim Carrie quote to with your avitar!:)

Bob Savage

10-20-2009, 3:03 PM

Bob..... finally you threw a a Jim Carrie quote to with your avitar!:)

I was wondering if anybody would catch that!

George Brown

10-20-2009, 10:39 PM

Absolutely, and as somebody with Asthma, I am not taking this lightly. Lots more reading to do...

I started with the delta 1.5 hp dust collector. It is not a very good unit. Bag gets clogged quickly, and it lets the fine dust through. I ended up buying a 5 hp cyclone from Clear Vue. Makes a very big difference. Much more volume, and much better filtration. If you have asthma, you just about have to use a cyclone. That fine dust is extremely damaging to the lungs over a period of time, it can cause COPD. The really fine dust gets past the bronchial tubes and settles deep inside the lung tissues.

Bob Savage

10-20-2009, 11:46 PM

I started with the delta 1.5 hp dust collector. It is not a very good unit. Bag gets clogged quickly, and it lets the fine dust through. I ended up buying a 5 hp cyclone from Clear Vue. Makes a very big difference. Much more volume, and much better filtration. If you have asthma, you just about have to use a cyclone. That fine dust is extremely damaging to the lungs over a period of time, it can cause COPD. The really fine dust gets past the bronchial tubes and settles deep inside the lung tissues.

After doing some reading, I agree and am not taking a chance. I believe I'm going to buy this one:

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/TEMP142CX.html

Joey Jarrard

10-21-2009, 12:55 AM

That looks like a good one to me.
Im going home to get some sleep. autocad till 1 am :confused:

Keith Outten

10-21-2009, 7:04 AM

Chip Box! Everything goes outside.

No Bags, No Filters, No Problems :)

Michael Schwartz

10-21-2009, 9:30 AM

After doing some reading, I agree and am not taking a chance. I believe I'm going to buy this one:

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/TEMP142CX.html

I have a pen state tempest DC in my shop and I am very happy with it.

I have a drum sander, tablesaw, scms, planer, jointer, and router table all hooked up to it with blast gates of course.

Bob Savage

10-21-2009, 10:06 AM

Chip Box! Everything goes outside.

No Bags, No Filters, No Problems :)

I like the sound of it... any links to products/designs?

I have a pen state tempest DC in my shop and I am very happy with it.

I have a drum sander, tablesaw, scms, planer, jointer, and router table all hooked up to it with blast gates of course.

That's great to hear. The price is better than most too.

Keith Outten

10-21-2009, 12:27 PM

Bob,

No design required. Build the size plywood box you want and run the exhaust from your dust collector to the box, its just that simple.

When you get your new DC home throw away the bags and all the junk that comes with it. Place the pump on the floor and hook your DC hose to the inlet side.

Here is a picture of the chip box I am using at CNU, it is the shipping box that the ShopBot came in :)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=53504&highlight=chip

.

Bob Savage

10-21-2009, 12:54 PM

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/TEMP142CX.html

So I would take the output at the top right side of this and instead going into that filter, send it outside?

Bob,

No design required. Build the size plywood box you want and run the exhaust from your dust collector to the box, its just that simple.

When you get your new DC home throw away the bags and all the junk that comes with it. Place the pump on the floor and hook your DC hose to the inlet side.

Here is a picture of the chip box I am using at CNU, it is the shipping box that the ShopBot came in :)
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=53504&highlight=chip

.

James Jaragosky

10-21-2009, 2:15 PM

http://www.pennstateind.com/store/TEMP142CX.html

So I would take the output at the top right side of this and instead going into that filter, send it outside?

Bob, the Pennstate machine that you posted the link to is a bit costly to use with Keith's method. A cheaper machine would work. With Keith's method, everything dust and exhaust are vented outside. The cyclone system set up this way would separate out the dust and only move the exhaust outside.
Jim J.

Bob Savage

10-21-2009, 2:30 PM

Bob, the Pennstate machine that you posted the link to is a bit costly to use with Keith's method. A cheaper machine would work. With Keith's method, everything dust and exhaust are vented outside. The cyclone system set up this way would separate out the dust and only move the exhaust outside.
Jim J.

Thanks, Jim. I think I'm going to stick with the cyclone system even though it's several hundred more than a Harbor Freight based system. I'm doing this in my garage and don't want to annoy the neighbors or make a mess on the side of the house.

Ed Lang

10-22-2009, 11:13 AM

I have and have use for the past four years A ClearVue cyclone. It is licensed and built on the Bill Pentz design. I cannot speak for the others but I expect them all to be much better than any bag type.

I am very happy with mine and I have run 6" duct to every tool in my shop.

The ONLY down side to a very good dust collector is that I cannot lift the 55 gallon drum to dump it in the dumpster when it is full of fine dust from the sanders. I have to let my son do that for me. Planer and jointer chips I can handle, but still let my son do it.

I do like that fact that I can see what is going on with the ClearVue unit, but a metal one that is working would be just as good I am sure.

The proof is in how much dust gets past the cyclone and ends up on the final filters.

I even have a baby ClearVue cyclone for the shop vac. I never have to clean the shop vac or that paper filter that gets all stopped up with dust when not using a cyclone.

If anyone is close to Charlottesville, VA and has a CAMaster machine, I would love to stop by and see it-

I pick up my second ShopBot machine tomorrow. I am very happy with ShopBot.

ed

Bob Savage

10-22-2009, 11:19 AM

I have and have use for the past four years A ClearVue cyclone. It is licensed and built on the Bill Pentz design. I cannot speak for the others but I expect them all to be much better than any bag type.

I looked at those, but they're so much more than the Penn State. Cost is really the only reason the ClearVue is not being considered, because as you stated, I would really like the ability to see what's happening in the cyclone system.

I have to let my son do that for me. Planer and jointer chips I can handle, but still let my son do it.

I like your style! :)

Michael Schwartz

10-22-2009, 12:20 PM

The ONLY down side to a very good dust collector is that I cannot lift the 55 gallon drum to dump it in the dumpster when it is full of fine dust from the sanders. I have to let my son do that for me. Planer and jointer chips I can handle, but still let my son do it.am sure.

OT but Gets fun in my shop, I have two 55 gallon drums that I have to throw in the back of my van, drive 5 miles, and dump in the woods at home.

The 55 gallon drums work nicely, and are not too bad to move around but I can fill them up pretty fast. Milling a 8' long 4" thick 24" wide solid ash work bench top the other week I filled up both of my 55 gallon drums in a day and a half.

If you don't have a local source of 55 gallon fiber, or plastic drums a 55 gallon sized plastic trash can will work just fine if you make a plywood lid, and ring to fit inside at the top to keep it from collapsing from suction. If you don't have a place to dump sawdust this is a good way to quickly acquire allot of bins.

Bob Savage

10-22-2009, 12:46 PM

Hmmm, I wonder how wood chips burns in a fireplace? Very quickly, I would presume :)

I'll need to find a strategy outside of filling my trash cans every week, for chips.

Michael Schwartz

10-22-2009, 12:52 PM

Hmmm, I wonder how wood chips burns in a fireplace? Very quickly, I would presume :)

I'll need to find a strategy outside of filling my trash cans every week, for chips.

Just get some 55 gallon ish trash cans, and make some plywood rings for them. Make a plywood top that attaches up to a section of hose coming of your cyclone. When your done just pull the trash can off and put its original lid on and grab another.

When I attended center for furniture craftsmanship, since they didn't dump sawdust on campus they had 4-5 trash cans setup like how I mentioned above on each of the cyclones for the 3 shops. No need to go shovel or dump chips from a drum into a trash can.

Bob Savage

10-22-2009, 12:59 PM

Just get some 55 gallon ish trash cans, and make some plywood rings for them. Make a plywood top that attaches up to a section of hose coming of your cyclone. When your done just pull the trash can off and put its original lid on and grab another.

When I attended center for furniture craftsmanship, since they didn't dump sawdust on campus they had 4-5 trash cans setup like how I mentioned above on each of the cyclones for the 3 shops. No need to go shovel or dump chips from a drum into a trash can.

Thanks, Michael.

The solution I ned is what to do with the chips after they're in the 55 gallon container. I'm putting in a hobby shop at home, so the cumulation of drums isn't going to be a good solution. I'm in an area where we have green, recycle and trash containers that are lifted by a mechanical arm on the truck. They won't empty drums.

Michael Schwartz

10-22-2009, 2:19 PM

Thanks, Michael.

The solution I ned is what to do with the chips after they're in the 55 gallon container. I'm putting in a hobby shop at home, so the cumulation of drums isn't going to be a good solution. I'm in an area where we have green, recycle and trash containers that are lifted by a mechanical arm on the truck. They won't empty drums.

I would call a few cabinet shops in your area and see what they do, since they are likely to know the quickest and most economical way to do it in your locality. Unless you know somebody who will let you get rid of them on there land.

I just dump mine out in the woods on my parents land having the luxury of living in a rural area. However I did grow up in a suburban area so I know what can be involved in disposing of stuff.

Really depends how long it can take to fill a bin.

If I am milling stuff at the planer and jointer all day I can fill up a drum in less than a day. However sometimes both of my drums last me 2 weeks or more. If Both are full and I am in the middle of something I scoop a bunch into a 30 gallon leaf/brush bag. By the way you should see if your municipality picks those up.

Can't wait to build my permanent shop so I can just dump them right outside in a pile but I don't think my landlord would be too happy with that now.

Joey Jarrard

10-22-2009, 3:22 PM

Bob Savage

10-22-2009, 3:23 PM

I would call a few cabinet shops in your area and see what they do, since they are likely to know the quickest and most economical way to do it in your locality. Unless you know somebody who will let you get rid of them on there land.

Really depends how long it can take to fill a bin.

Can't wait to build my permanent shop so I can just dump them right outside in a pile but I don't think my landlord would be too happy with that now.

Michael,

You bring up some good points, first and foremost, the quantity of chips. I have only evenings and weekends to work and expect that chip generations would be low enough to put in the trash and/or green waste.

If I get beyond that somehow, I'll take your advice and find out how local cabinet shops are dealing with wood waste.

I wish I could just shoot the chips onto the slope behind my house, but the neighbors down the hill would be upset. :)

Bob Savage

10-22-2009, 3:26 PM

My days in a cab shop are gone but when I had chips and dust to get rid of I called a local horse stable. as long as I did not cut any thing pressure treated they would come and get them. Horses trample the bottom of there pin if a dirt floor. add some horse waste and bam you have a mud hole. The guy would come in a truck load up the bags (we used plastic 6' long bags) and spread them down to keep the floor in tack. a goon rain comes and he would call us to see if we had some.

Now that is a great idea! Not only are there some wealthy neighborhoods around that have horse stables on their property, but there are also small "ranches" in the hills nearby.

I'll bet I could find a resident or two that would like free wood chips...

Robert Alexander

10-22-2009, 8:12 PM

Bob
I have one of these in my shop. A Veritas Cyclone lid from Lee Valley tools. It is clear on top, so I can see how full the 55 gallon can is getting. I have it hooked up to a small 3/4 horse power portable wall mounted dust collection unit from Rockler hardware.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=30282&cat=1,42401&ap=1
I have 3 stations in my shop where I can attach the dust collecter on the wall, wheel over the cyclone, and plug the hose in.
I weighed the pros and cons of putting in a larger fixed system, but I did not want to tie up any more floor space. Plus this dust collection system is less money.

Nicholas Bukky

10-22-2009, 9:18 PM

Tell your neighbors it's free MULCH!:D

I have a large planer and jointer and they fill up the dust collector WAY faster than the cnc.:(

Nick

Michael Schwartz

10-23-2009, 5:28 PM

btw yet another response related to sawdust but if you go by disposal with the brown paper green/yard waste bags check out what this guy did.

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=122859

Keith Outten

10-24-2009, 1:11 PM

Bob,

A CNC router won't produce the volume of chips that you would think. Unlike a planner which is a monster that produces chips faster then you can empty the bags, routers produce a much finer chip and you don't remove near the amount of material.

For instance you have seen the picture of the chip box I posted a couple of days ago, it will easily hold more chips than I can produce in a year. I make signs, the type of work you do will definately impact your chip volume. I transfer the chips from the box into 30 gallon trash cans and take them to a local dumpster.

Remember, if you are working with Corian, acrylics and various other types of plastic material you won't be able to dispose of chips "in the woods" like some do with their wood chips.

Now, how about sharing some information concerning the CNC router you have decided to purchase. I know that by now you have made a decision, which make and model?
.

Bob Savage

10-24-2009, 1:29 PM

As usual, that's excellent information, Keith. I have a feeling that I'll produce so little chip waste that it won't even impact the volume of trash I put out each week.

Well, I can't just let you call me out like that, now can I. :) Because I've not actually placed the order, I was going to hold off, but my job situation looks good (signed an offer letter on Thurs), and I'm on-target to place the order this Friday, Oct 30, so...

Joey spent time talking with me about which options are easily upgradeable and which aren't, so I'm ordering the CAMaster CR-408 Cobra with X3 option, but with a router instead of a spindle. I'm also purchasing Aspire.

If the day comes where I "need" and can justify the spindle, I'll order one. For now, I'll have a fantastic American made machine, with the 3 tool changer and from what I can tell, some of the best support in the business.

I'm very excited!

And by the way, thanks again for all of your help on this forum and on the phone. You've been a great help.