Newbie Looking for Advice on Plane Wish List

[Bill Evans]

Last weekend I innocently attended a hand plane class at the Pt Townsend Schoold of Woodworking (http://www.ptwoodschool.com/Home.html). At first it seemed like it was just going to be a tool geek fest with lots of folks, justifiably, showing off their fancy LN & LV planes. But eventually we got around to using hand planes.

First my disclaimer, I am completely new to woodworking. Read, brand new. Every tool in my shop represents the first time that I have ever used that type of tool (drill press, bandsaw etc).

So of course this class was my first experience with hand planes and I was stunned with just how capable they are to use. So stunned in fact that when I went home I was compelled to flatten and smooth the top of a little tool bench with my newly sharpened #18 block plane.

So I have been thinking about adding to my capability and would love some advice on my current wish list.


#4 Smoother Plane (Type 10-14)
#5 Jack Plane (Type 10-14)
#7 Jointer Plane (Type 10-14)
#40 Scrub Plane
#65 Low Angle Block Plane
#71 Router Plane
#92 Cabinet Maker's Rabbet Plane
#271 Router Plane

I already own, somehow, a few.


#18 Block Plane
#53 Spoke Shave
#220 Block Plane

My thought is to pick pick up older Stanley planes and refurbish them.

Thanks,

Bill
Lopez Island, WA

[David Keller NC]

Bill - Welcome to the Creek. Many of us use planes to surface and prep wood for projects exclusively; there's no doubt that they require more "grunt power" than powered tools, but they also offer greater control and scalability - anyone with a proper bench and a little training can surface a 25" wide board, but few of us have the dollars or shop space to accomodate a planer that would handle such a board.

In regards to your list, I would nix the scrub plane. It's a useful tool, but not for what you might think (surfacing a board). The historical use for this tool was rapidly taking off a small amount from the edge of a board - an amount that was small enough to make the plane faster and easier than sawing off the same amount.

And from the standpoint of the three tools commonly used to 4-square a piece of rough lumber, you're on the right track. You need a roughing plane, a jointing plane, and for show boards, a smoother. The roughing plane can be either a fore-plane length, or for smaller boards, a jack-plane length. This plane needs to be fairly lightweight, have a fairly open mouth, and have a heavy camber (curve) ground on the leading edge. Typically, a Stanely #6 is identified as a fore plane.

The jointer needs less curve on the blade (though still needs some), needs a tighter mouth, a longer length, and needs to a have a flat sole. A #7 or a #8 will serve the purpose, but be advised that it's a good idea to buy a plane that already has a flat sole - flattening a 22" long cast iron plane sole is not for the faint of heart, and requires a precision-ground reference surface, such as a jointer outfeed table, granite surface plate, or cast-iron table saw table.

The smoother can be a lot of different planes - Stanley's #4-1/2, #4, #3, and #2 are all smoother planes. One generally selects which one based on the size of the project. If you mostly make boxes, a #3 or a #4 may fit your needs better than a 4-1/2. If you intend to make tables and large case furniture, the 4-1/2 or even a #5 may be better suited to your needs.

Finally, to remove some of the beginner's frustration that you might otherwise encounter, remember that the most important tool in your shop is not the hand-planes, saws, or chisels, it's the workbench. Without a sturdy, flat workbench with a vise, bench dogs and a planing stop, it's very, very difficult to use hand tools effectively. You may want to purchase Christopher Schwarz' book on workbenches - "Workbenches: From Theory and Design to Construction and Use". It's the best value you will get out of all of your woodworking expenditures, and it's cheap. With it, you will learn what makes a good bench, how to select vises, make workbench appliances, and how to construct one.

[John Keeton]

Bill, David is extremely knowledgable on this topic, and has given you excellent advice. Beware (and, you probably have already realized it) that there is no end to the long, slippery slope of handtools!


Finally, to remove some of the beginner's frustration that you might otherwise encounter, remember that the most important tool in your shop is not the hand-planes, saws, or chisels, it's the workbench.
David, I know you were referring to the inability to get good performance from handtools without a proper bench, but, really all you have done is to increase poor Bill's frustration!!;) Now he is going to have two obsessions going at the same time! Building that bench, AND acquiring all those handplanes!:D

[Bill Evans]

David and John,

Thanks.

But I have to ask, what parts of woodworking isn't a slippery sloop?

I have Festools, a green and steep sloop...

I have old arn, a grease induced sloop...

And now old planes...

Hard to know which way to point the skis.

And none of this great advice is frustrating. I imagine this one of those things where when you get the experience from doing it, you know what you needed to know when you started.

During our class I was very impressed the traditional workbenches that they had in their shop. Alas, there isn't one in my immediate future since I started going the Festool route with their MFT3s.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_rqLNS-z1IIU/SsakM6m_aUI/AAAAAAAAM9Y/BCHvOtvG5SU/s800/Dual%20MFT3s%20-%201.jpg

But I did recently create a permanent mount which greatly enhance their stability. And after last weeks class I am working on incorporating a proper front wood vise.

My shop space is rather small, just 10'x12', so I am always looking for ways to do things in a clever way that doesn't take up a large amount of space. The viability of hand planes really started my mind thinking about ways to do things differently. Already I am questioning the space my small 4" jointer is taking up. And I never really liked the lunch box planer...

Cheers and Many Thanks,

Bill

Oh, here is the rest of the Shop, Shed, Space.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rqLNS-z1IIU/SXuhuJ5AexI/AAAAAAAAJdA/YGM-QCVY57k/s800/Shed%20Shop%20-%20A.jpg

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_rqLNS-z1IIU/Sn9LzianelI/AAAAAAAAMvg/GlSPpNFEnr0/s800/Workshop%20-%2008-09%20-%203.jpg

[John Keeton]

Bill, that is a beautiful setting, and a neat outside appearance to the shop addition! For that amount of space, you have done a tremendous job of organization. Seems the more space one has, the less efficient one becomes.

My first "shop" was an 8x10 metal building - no stationary power tools, only power handtools and a few chisels, etc. Went through a period of no shops, and then to a 10x12 with a radial arm saw as the centerpiece.

After moving "up" a few times, I ended up with a 24x24. I love the extra room, but sometimes think that I fail to utilize the space very well. The smaller shops seem to compel one to really think about the real "needs" and to buy only what one can use.

You have done that very well - probably not cheap - but, very well!! I am green with Festool envy, BTW!:D

[Matt Stiegler]

Hi Bill, and welcome from another newbie. Very nice-looking shop.

One plane not on your list is a shoulder plane. I've been told by folks who've forgotten more than I'll ever know that a shoulder plane may be an early one to get. (If you search around here, you'll find lots of info and opinions here.) More so, for many, than router planes or rabbet planes. My impression is that even old-plane aficianados often buy a shoulder plane new.

The other basic advice I've gleaned is that learning to sharpen is the gateway skill for successful hand tool use. The scary sharp method (again, search here) is often recommended to beginners, although there are many many alternatives.

[David Keller NC]

Bill - the definition of "a good workbench" is pretty variable, but I can point to 4 things that they have in common, and that are necessary for working wood with handtools: a good front vise (a twin screw, a "record-type" quick release, a leg vise - whatever; they're all good), a flat and inflexible top, a sturdy base with enough mass to prevent the bench from "walking", and some sort of dog holes. I'm not familiar with Festool's workholding systems, but they fit the above characteristics, you're golden. If not, you may have to put some of those machines on casters to make room for a traditional bench.

From the standpoint of the machines, keep the lunchbox planer, and ditch the jointer (but only after you've bought and learned to use the jointer plane!). The lunch-box planer is a massive work saver, and will fit very well with your hand-tool arsenal so long as you view it as a roughing tool, with the final finish left by hand planes. The jointer, though, is something that you can replace with a jointer plane, and using the handplane for that job doesn't take a lot of effort.

You will also find very quickly that you no longer need sanders of various sorts. I've found that using a cutting tool to shape wood is far faster and more efficient than using sanders for the same purpose, though sandpaper is still very useful for leveling finishes, so I've kept my stock of 400 grit and up.

Finally, as to other planes to buy - realize that planes fall into three categories - surfacing/straightening tools, joinery tools, and molding tools. One generally starts with the surfacing tools (and I would recommend that you do the same). This is the list you need to prep rough-sawn boards entirely by hand:

A workbench (see above - it needs to be able to hold the board so that you can conveniently work on the edges, ends, and face)
A good marking gauge (I recommend the Tite-Mark - it's far easier to use than the traditional type, and you can buy lots of extra blades to do different things when the need arises).
A small square - an all-metal engineer's square like the WoodJoy Tools "total square" is ideal. Combination squares are less than ideal for this purpose, as they're usually not as accurate as you'd like for squareing edges).
A good straightedge - I like Starret's 12" and 24" rules for this purpose, though you can also use a carefully straightened piece of straight-grained and stable wood, like mahogany, ebony, spanish cedar, or even eastern white pine.
A roughing plane - There's lots of opinions on this, but I would recommend the fore-plane size. Either a wooden one (which is what i most often use - it's lighter and takes a great deal less effort to push), or a metal "Stanley" #6 (any brand of antique so long as it's older than the 1950's will be fine).
A jointer plane - This is a good palce to consider a Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen tool. While you can find a Stanley #7 or #8, replace the blade, and flatten the sole (if necessary), there are a lot of pitfalls to this approach, particularly if you're buying off of e-bay. Unlike the roughing plane, this needs to be a precision tool - it must be flat within a few thousandths, and it's very helpful to be able to close the mouth to within a few thousandths of an inch if you're working figured wood.
A smoother (optional) - While a smooth plane is an incredibly useful tool, it's not absolutely required if you've got a good jointer, and it's not really necessary at all if you intend to sand your projects after completion. Again, this is a good place to consider a modern, precision-made tool, though you can fix up an old Stanley to do what you need.
A sharpening system - This brings up lots of controversy on 'net forums, with adherents of sandpaper stuck down to reference surfaces (float glass, granite plates, etc...), japanese waterstones, traditional oil stones, diamond stones, or powered systems like the worksharp or the Tormek. To start with, this is what I'd recommend - get a grinder with a circular wheel - this could be a elcheapo import dry grinder with replaced Norton or 3M high-friability wheels (this is important - the wheels that come on these grinders are unsuitable for your use and will burn the steel in your tools), or it could be a water grinder like the Tormek, Tormek Jr. or Jet machines. Then buy 3 grits in either stones or sandpaper - a washita (oilstone), 1000 grit waterstone, or 400 grit sandpaper; a soft arkansas (oilstone), 4000 grit waterstone, or 600 grit sandpaper; and a hard arkansas, 8000 grit waterstone, or 1200 grit sandpaper. If you go with sandpaper, you will require a flat reference surface - Woodcraft sells inexpensive import granite surface plates that work quite well.

This equipment will allow you to flatten and polish the back of chisels and plane blades, put a hollow grind on the bevel, camber the bevel on a plane blade, and put a high polish and keen edge on the cutting edge.

Keep in mind that all sharpening systems will work. Theoretically, you could keep your tools sharp with a concrete driveway and a leather strop (believe it or not, I've tried this, and with skill, it will work), but the above equipment will work for all sorts of things that you may get into in your woodworking interest - plane blades and chisels, carving tools, turning tools, axes, adzes, etc...

Nice shop, by the way - I'd love to have a separate one, but the basement will have to do for the foreseeable future. :)

[Bob Easton]

The choices you make really depend on what kind of woodworking you intend to do.

For example, David nixes the scrub plane. I know that David is more interested in fine cabinet and furniture making than in boat building, so I can understand that sentiment. On the other hand, my boat building work finds many uses for the scrub plane, from edge trimming, to quick thickness reduction of softwoods, to "backing out" (curving the insides of) planks.

What you will need definitely depends on what kind of woodworking you pursue.

As with a discussion about "required" tools in another thread, my advice is to get what you need for the current project and wait until the next project requires some tool you don't have. It's a good way to manage a budget over time and to avoid buying things that might never be used.

In any case, I hope you enjoy making shavings and creating beauty with your woodworking.

[Bill Evans]

Bill, that is a beautiful setting, and a neat outside appearance to the shop addition! For that amount of space, you have done a tremendous job of organization. Seems the more space one has, the less efficient one becomes.

My first "shop" was an 8x10 metal building - no stationary power tools, only power handtools and a few chisels, etc. Went through a period of no shops, and then to a 10x12 with a radial arm saw as the centerpiece.

After moving "up" a few times, I ended up with a 24x24. I love the extra room, but sometimes think that I fail to utilize the space very well. The smaller shops seem to compel one to really think about the real "needs" and to buy only what one can use.

You have done that very well - probably not cheap - but, very well!! I am green with Festool envy, BTW!:D

John,

Well no, not cheap. But one of my philosophies of life is stay small and spend lavishly. A 640 square foot house, a small skinny sailboat and a tiny shop. But each one can get be fairly well equipped since there just ain't much space to throw the money at.

Outfitting the shop (I am allowed to call it a shop aren't I?) was filled with contrasts. Obviously I spent top dollar getting all those green tools in. But the old side (bandsaw, shaper, disc sander, drill press, jointer, grinder, and lathe) were all purchased for less than the price of one Festool MFT3 workbench. And every last piece of old arn work very, very well (although I haven't got a motor for the lathe yet).

You are spot on about utilizing the space well in a small shop. It would be quite easy for my shop to turn into a storage shed for tools without any room left to work. But I am pretty determined to have some fun with it so I won't let that happen.

Cheers, Bill

[Bill Evans]

The choices you make really depend on what kind of woodworking you intend to do.

For example, David nixes the scrub plane. I know that David is more interested in fine cabinet and furniture making than in boat building, so I can understand that sentiment. On the other hand, my boat building work finds many uses for the scrub plane, from edge trimming, to quick thickness reduction of softwoods, to "backing out" (curving the insides of) planks.

What you will need definitely depends on what kind of woodworking you pursue.

As with a discussion about "required" tools in another thread, my advice is to get what you need for the current project and wait until the next project requires some tool you don't have. It's a good way to manage a budget over time and to avoid buying things that might never be used.

In any case, I hope you enjoy making shavings and creating beauty with your woodworking.

Bob,

Thanks for the good advice. And I don't believe that I did mentioned what my woodworking plans are. It is a little hard to know exactly since I am just starting out and don't really know which way this path will take me. But here is what I do know.


Building accessory and maintaining the existing wood on our sailboat.
Cabinets and furnishings for the house.
Building a small dinghy for the sailboat.
Learning to turn on the old lathe.

Presently I am trying to find that balance between having the capability to do ordinary jobs and waiting for specialty tasks to add specialty tools.

That and get the shop past the constant remodel phase so I can start working a project. First up is a new sewing case for the old Pfaff model 130 sewing machine.

Thanks, Bill

[David Keller NC]

For example, David nixes the scrub plane. I know that David is more interested in fine cabinet and furniture making than in boat building, so I can understand that sentiment. On the other hand, my boat building work finds many uses for the scrub plane, from edge trimming, to quick thickness reduction of softwoods, to "backing out" (curving the insides of) planks.

I actually do have, and use, a scrub plane, largely for the purposes that you describe (backing out molding, reducing the width of boards that are close to the needed width, etc...). However, I suggested that Bob not buy this as part of his first purchases and instead consider a fore plane. No disrespect to Rob Cosman (who uses a scrub to roughly dress a board in the "Rough to Ready" DVD), but I think that a fore plane is more useful for this purpose, especially for a newbie.

The reason is the difference between "mindful planing" and "going at it". A fore-plane length roughing plane will automatically flatten cup and twist in a board, but to accomplish the same thing with a scrub plane, you have to examine the board carefully and only use it on those portions that are high - the plane's sole is so short that planing the entire surface of a board with twist or cupping will just produce a board that's thinner with twist and cupping. Of course, that assumes we're talking about a board of substantial width and length compared to the sole of the plane - model makers may find a scrub to be an ideal roughing plane.

[Bill Evans]

David,

Wow! Thanks for this detailed and thoughtful reply. A lot to think about here. And thanks for the measurement and layout tool recommendations.

I am quite sure that many questions will pop up as I reread this thread but for now I am still trying to take this all in.

Thanks,
Bill

[Bill Evans]

So I started a little browsing and decided to take a chance on a group of four planes. A number 3, 4 & 5 bench plane and a number 103 block plane.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_rqLNS-z1IIU/SuYFSJWIDOI/AAAAAAAANCk/XSpwpFtEQ44/s800/Hand%20Planes%20-%201.jpg

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_rqLNS-z1IIU/SuYFSLDTTTI/AAAAAAAANCo/geTAKI_yn38/s800/Hand%20Planes%20-%202.jpg

The shipping for this set was as low as for many individual planes and the set price seemed reasonable to me. So my hope is to get a nice working jack plane and smoother out of this deal.

The bench planes, to my inexperienced eyes, look to be type 13s and they all have sweetheart irons.

I won't really know how well I did (or didn't do) until I get to, and learn, some fettling.

The number three gets to be first.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_rqLNS-z1IIU/SuYFScYhZeI/AAAAAAAANCs/NqWuCnr_Lw0/s800/Hand%20Planes%20-%203.jpg

Thanks again for all the great advice.

Cheers, Bill

[Sam Takeuchi]

You got awesome planes. That No.3 is somewhat mixed of type 14 and 15 I believe... And No.4 and 5 are both type 13 I think. You did great getting those. Once you clean them up and tune them, they'll make planing fun!

Edit: Before you start fettling, spend some time reading fettling tip here and elsewhere on the internet. But if you aren't into making it all pretty and shinny, all you need is a flat surface and some coarse abrasive papers. The rest is for prettification, like buffing and all that non-essential stuff.

[Prashun Patel]

Bill-
You have a nice little collection there. As a newbie and owner of all those planes, here's what I'll offer:

Skip the 103. That style of plane for ME is harder to use than the 60 1/2, which has an adjustable mouth and depth adjuster. Setting the depth on the 103/102 is a challenge for me.

I LOVE my #3. Spend time to really lap that sole and sharpen the blade properly. It will produce LOVELY things for you. For the small handed, it's really a joy to work with. I equally love my #4 and Jack. Happy shaving!

I think you're smart to start on the 'smoothing' side of the spectrum. IMHO, smoothing is more about the blade and the depth and as such allows you to focus on and master that technique.

Jointing panel faces (#6 types and north) has been deceptively trickier for me. It requires much more understanding of the wood topography and understanding where the high points are. It can be frustrating.

Also, I suggest you test your fettling first with a softer or straight grained wood like pine or oak. Going right to a curly wood like cherry or maple can leave you tearing out your wood and your hair.

- p

[Bill Evans]

I had a go at cleaning up and sharpening two of the planes that I got off ebay, the number 4 and 5.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_rqLNS-z1IIU/SwtENir6XvI/AAAAAAAANE0/1c6mCf4R1dA/s800/Hand%20Planes%20%20-%2003.jpg

I am pretty tickled with how well they work and how much enjoyment I get using them. The number 5 will consistently remove shavings down to 0.0020 inches and the number 4 will go down to 0.0010 inches. Is this about right for these types of planes?

Anyway, the number 3 was the worst of the bench planes so I put it on the shelf for a while. I will pick it up again. Maybe I will tune it and the number 7 I am keeping a lookout for.

Thanks again everyone for your help and insight.

Cheers, Bill

[Sean Hughto]

"[The scrub plane is] a useful tool, but not for what you might think (surfacing a board). The historical use for this tool was rapidly taking off a small amount from the edge of a board - an amount that was small enough to make the plane faster and easier than sawing off the same amount."

I know we've had this conversation before so I won't dwell on it, but for the sake of the OP, I'd like to point out that your contention is more like speculation than proven fact. And regardless of the speculation or even the fact of Stanley's intention (or at least its catalog copy writers in the marketing department) the fact remains that the 40 is very useful and capable in removing thickness from the face of a board quickly and efficiently.

I thought of this point last weekend when I was 4 squaring two large (rough sawn and air dried) elm planks for a sharpening bench I'm putting together. The 40 earned its keep and then some. It takes much deeper bites than a fore. When flattening the first side, the scrub takes down localized high areas very quickly - its size is plus for such localized work. But where it really shines is after you've flattened one side and marked the thickness for the second side so that it matches other boards you are using (thickest common denominator after getting the cup and twist out of the worst of the lot, so to speak). Bringing the second side down to the line on all four sides is hastened quite a bit by the scrub. The fore takes over for the last 1/8th or so.

Each to their own.

[Sean Hughto]

"you have to examine the board carefully and only use it on those portions that are high"

For what it's worth, examinig the board with a straight edge, winding sticks or referencing on your bench top is not a terribly complicated or uncommon endeavor. Even without such references, simple observation tells you a lot of where to start. For example, a cup significant enough to call for a scrub, is visible the naked eye. On one side you therefore know to work short diagonal strokes to bring down the middle third and on the other to bring down the outside thirds. The scrub is for gross removal. When you get to apoint where the high spots are difficult to determine, then, indeed, it is time for the fore to do it's work - working cross grain and on the diagonals again - at least for a cupped board.

[Mike Henderson]

I'll throw in a comment on the 65. Many 65's are knuckle joint planes and adjusting a knuckle joint plane is a bit more difficult than some others. I'll use the LN 60 1/2 for example. You can loosen the lever cap on the LN plane and adjust the blade, then tighten it up without the blade moving.

A knuckle joint is a bit more difficult because when you release the lever cap, you completely take any pressure off the blade. It's easy to have the iron slip sideways when you go to tighten it up.

The knuckle joint is really trick looking and unusual, but the LN style is a lot easier to work with.

[Added note: if you buy a 65, look very carefully at the back sides of the mouth. Many of the 65's have cracks there from someone tightening the knuckle joint lever cap down too hard. It's low angle so there's not much metal there.]

Also, when looking for old bench planes, look for some Vaughan & Bushnell. You get the Bedrock frog, and if you go with the 900 series planes (902, 903, 904, etc.) you get a forged steel body so if you drop it on the floor it won't break.

Finally, a replacement blade will usually improve almost any old plane. LN, LV, Hock and others make good blades. It's the quickest way to improve an older plane.

Mike

[Marty Gulseth]

Hi Bill, and greetings from the dry(er) side of WA state!

The pix of your shop are most impressive. Are you really the newbie you claim to be? :-)

Like you, I'm pretty much a newbie when it comes to woodworking. However, I've been at it, more or less, for many years (slow learner, I suppose.) I think you will like "the Creek". I lurk and read a lot, post little. There are some very knowledgeable and friendly folk here to help you along.

Best Regards,
Marty

[Bill Evans]

Hi Bill, and greetings from the dry(er) side of WA state!

The pix of your shop are most impressive. Are you really the newbie you claim to be? :-)

Like you, I'm pretty much a newbie when it comes to woodworking. However, I've been at it, more or less, for many years (slow learner, I suppose.) I think you will like "the Creek". I lurk and read a lot, post little. There are some very knowledgeable and friendly folk here to help you along.

Best Regards,
Marty

Marty,

Afraid so. My original training was as an Engineer but after about 10 years I changed tacks. But not before being instilled with the idea that a lack of knowledge or expereince were just the normal starting point in any adventure.

Although I have finished my shed/shop and refurbished some tools I still haven't built one piece of furniture. So I am really in the pre-newbie woodworking class.

I do have some ideas for rolling shop storage for this winter. So lots of mistakes and lessons ahead.

Cheers, Bill
Lopez Island, WA

[Mark Roderick]

Man, that's beautiful.