Angle finding tools and miter saws

[Mike Rees]

Hey Gang,

I'm looking at each of these two items to help me hang crown, and case molding over the winter:

http://www.amazon.com/DAF220K-finder-Digital-Finder-Extension/dp/B001MUHXQ6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1255715804&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.com/Starrett-CP505A-12-ProSite-Combination-Protractor/dp/B000XJM9KW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1255715828&sr=1-1

Both of these tools look like they can give me the compound angles I would need to cut crown on the flat w/o worrying about propping it up on the fence (which would be nice since then I could go w/ a 10" miter saw).

However, do you need a dual bevel saw to compliment these tools? I can't fathom how you could use this w/ crown on the flat and not be able to bevel both ways. Unless I somehow use the readings and flip the crown (though I have never hung crown before so I REALLY hesitate messing around w/ the orientations of the molding on the saw).

On another note, I saw this online: www.cutncrown.com/ (http://www.cutncrown.com/) Seemed to be pretty straight forward though I'm sure there's a catch. The one that seems obvious to me - w/ the jigs it offers it seems like you need a 12" saw for the clearance. Is this cutncrown system hogwash?

So what say you pros? For my shed project, case molding, possible hardwood floor job in the house, and other things as they pop up I could make due w/ a 10". To cut crown NOT on the fence, do I really need a 12" dual bevel? If I went w/ the CutnCrown jigs, looks like I could go single bevel 12.

Thanks in advance,
Mike

[bill mullin]

Hi Mike.
The angle gauges are indeed handy for finding the precise angles needed; however, they aren't necessary. Been doing crown a looong time and I don't own one.
My Hitachi dual compound slider has settings marked for cutting crown on the flat, but only for 90 degree corners. To cut on the flat, obviously you have to adjust both the mitre saw table (for mitre angle), and the head of the saw (for bevel angle). The tools you show will give you the mitre angle, but I don't know about the bevel angle. There are a few internet sites with calculators that will give you those angles. Maybe someone here can link to some.

Having said all that, I don't understand why you don't want to cut crown the more common way, "propping it up on the fence." It is IMO much faster and easier. Cutting it this way, all you need to know is the angle of the corner you are going around. Holding up to the fence automatically determines the "spring" angle. No bevel angle to worry about. If possible, I cut all my crown this way. The only limitation is size of the crown. A 10" saw should cut up to 4 5/8" crown. Not sure about a 12" saw since I don't own one. If you plan to cut really tall crown, then the dual compound is the way to go.

I didn't read all the info about the cutting jig, but it looks like an elegant solution to a non-existent problem, to me. As long as your saw is adjusted properly, who cares about which side of the blade you cut from.

[Mike Rees]

I suppose I'm trying to cut it on the flat b/c I don't want to have to buy a 12" miter saw. But it seems like if I just dealt w/ the reality of a 12", I'd probably have a easier time with things. With a 12 I could use the CutNCrown system. It seems like a beginners/newbie way to cut crown by taking all the figuring out of it save figuring out your angles. I have a email into CutNCrown to see if their jigs will work w/ the Dewalt 10" - I sent them the max lengths for fence and flat.

[Dave Lehnert]

Much cheaper tools

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=58801&cat=1,43513

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=64278&cat=1,44047

[bruce ingram]

I,ve hung alot of crown in the past and I always cope the corners, It seems to me that the cutncrown system eliminates the need to cope and it also takes the guess work out of the cutting, Just watched the video and am seriously thinking of purchasing the system.Seems a little pricey but is also foolproof,Doesn't look like you need a 12" miter . Happy cutting to you .:D

[Mike Rees]

I'd love to use the systemn w/ a 10" saw and call it a day - I would just like to know about the clearances before I invest in the saw.

[Randal Stevenson]

Read their FAQ's. It says there are a couple of 10" saws that won't work with the system (from the wording, makes me believe there are fewer that don't then do). It also mentions the size that is affected.

As for figuring out the angles, a sliding t bevel and a protractor are a cheap way. Then there is the Nobex multifix that is what the Festool miter finder is based on (received one last Christmas), and Sears now has a digital one that I saw in the last Craftsman club ad (not handy, and I don't know if it is on the site yet).

EDIT: I was mistaken on the Craftsman one, I mixed two tools, as they now have a manual one that comes with a miter saw (new ad).

[Mike Rees]

Read their FAQ's. It says there are a couple of 10" saws that won't work with the system (from the wording, makes me believe there are fewer that don't then do). It also mentions the size that is affected.

As for figuring out the angles, a sliding t bevel and a protractor are a cheap way. Then there is the Nobex multifix that is what the Festool miter finder is based on (received one last Christmas), and Sears now has a digital one that I saw in the last Craftsman club ad (not handy, and I don't know if it is on the site yet).

EDIT: I was mistaken on the Craftsman one, I mixed two tools, as they now have a manual one that comes with a miter saw (new ad).

I read the FAQ - it basically says some 10" saws can accommodate a 4 3/4" molding - the Dewalt site says the max molding nested on the fence is 4 1/2" - I guess this system will not work w/ the saw I've chose if what they infer regarding the size is truly indicative of what capacity is required.

[johnny means]

$200:eek::eek: for some cheesy plastic blocks. Hogwash!

[Bill Huber]

I really like my 8 inch Wiexy, great little tool to have.

http://www.wixey.com/digitalprotractor/index.html

[bill mullin]

$200:eek::eek: for some cheesy plastic blocks. Hogwash!
And a free bag to store it in!:D

[Mike Rees]

Trust me I'm not big on the cost - but having never done it before and no carpenter to learn it from - I'm just looking for a simple way.

In the end I'm cheap - I'll probably cut the templates and just wing it on the fence after reading some books.

[johnny means]

Trust me I'm not big on the cost - but having never done it before and no carpenter to learn it from - I'm just looking for a simple way.

In the end I'm cheap - I'll probably cut the templates and just wing it on the fence after reading some books.

In my experience, cutting crown propped up against the fence is the only way to go. Simplest, least calculations.

Take your time. Cut each piece to length first. Position each piece and mark the direction of the cut before cutting. That way if you adjust your saw the wrong way you will see that before you ruin your material.

Every trim guy I know is a master with a caulk gun. Be sure to use latex and not silicone.

I use a 3/4" auxillary fence on my 12" Dewalt to squeeze out an extra inch of cutting height. This would probably work on a 10" saw also.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,

I have this one:
http://www.amazon.com/Starrett-505A-7-ProSite-Protractor/dp/B000B8N0SU/ref=pd_cp_hi_2

Nice thing about it is that it's mindless. You don't have to figure out any settings, the tool does it for you.

I also have the Hartville Hardware version of the 4" Wixey digital protractor.

Neither are necessary for hanging crown or doing trim, but they do make the job a bit easier.

I also picked up the Bench Dog jig:
http://www.amazon.com/Bench-Dog-10-027-Polymer-Crown-Cut/dp/B000OR8JJ8/ref=pd_cp_hi_1

The picture on the jig showing the correct orientation of the crown is worth $20.00 all by itself.

I don't hang crown all that often so it isn't second nature to me. That's where having these comes in handy.

I'd really suggest doing a small room, such as a laundry room, with some 3" paint grade crown as a way of getting your feet wet.

Other tips:
- Use a nailer instead of trying to nail the crown into studs on the wall. All walls have bows and bellys & using a nailer let's you drive a fastener where you need it.

- If the ceiling has a stipple or texture to it mark the location where the crown is going to hit it. Use a sanding block to knock the texture down smooth so the crown lays flat against the ceiling. It's worlds faster than running a bead of caulk later to fill in the gap.

- Practice, practice, practice, practice coping.

- Take some time to fine tune the miter saw. Verify with a digital protractor that the saw's angle settings are on the money. You'll also want to double check those settings every so often after you get to cutting. My 10" DeWalt no slider was spot on from the factory and it hasn't moved an iota in the year I've been using it. My 10" Ryobi needed some attention from the get go, and it works itself out of alignment every so often. My 8 1/2" Delta was out of whack from day one & goes out of whack pretty often.
Oddly, my 8 1/2" Workforce slider was & is spot on and hasn't moved one bit in three years of hard use.

[Sam Layton]

Mike, I purchased the Cutncrown a few years ago at a WW show. About a month ago I tried to use it. I did not like it at all. My crown did not fit the jig, and no support on the cut off piece, as well as the other end. I put it back in my tool box, propped the crown against the fence and cut away.

Sam

[Larry Edgerton]

I am not clear on how these work possibly, but am I correct to understand that they miter inside corners?

Anyway, I too cut vertical unless it is so large that my 15" Hitachi will not handle it, but that has only happened once. I do not believe in mitered inside corners, it always opens up with the big swings in humidity we see here in the great white North.

If you do cut vertical, a trick I use is to figure out where the crown sits good against the fence on both 45's, and mark it on the chop saw table, then put a piece of painters tape on the table on those lines. This will give you a quick reference and make all of your cuts easier as you have one less thing to look at, and the tape will help keep it from sliding down. Just remove the tape when done.

I screw a special fence to the outfeeds that captures the crown on the angle that it is cut. The fence is just two fingers with a angled slot big enough for the crown to ride in, but loose enough that it can easily slide back and forth. use a roundover on the edges so as not to damage the crown. This allows me to cut long pieces without fighting the tails wanting to fall over flat. I have it mounted on a hinge so I can flip it out of the way for flat cuts.

Someone mentioned cutting to length first. I disagree. I have been doing this a long time and I occasionally screw up a cope myself, so I never cut to length until the cope is cut, unless it is a double cope cut, which I try to avoid by ending on an outside corner if possible. Still, I will make sure I have the first cope correct before I cut to length for the second cope.

Order good coping blades! The Vermont American variety are crap and will make you hate coping. I cant remember where I bought mine as it was years ago and I bought 100. I am running low, so if anyone knows a good source let me know.

[Mike Rees]

Thank you everybody for your advice - I really appreciate it. And thanks for the Bench Dog recommendation - that's a lot easier to swallow than the CutNCrown system.

Hey, do you guys mostly get by w/ a 10" miter saw or is 12" pretty much the recommendation?

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
8 1/2, 10 or 12 - depends.
Even slider vs non-slider - depends.

I went with two 8 1/2" saws, one fixed (Delta) and one slider (Workforce) for portability reasons.

I also went with two 10" saws, again, one for portability (Ryobi) and one for decent quality (DeWalt - since it resides 100% of the time in my shop).
I also went 10" simply because it's easier to find blades for a 10" locally.
The selection of 12" blades where I live is very poor.

10" blades are abundant and often cheap. My 10" Ryobi sees almost as much Aluminum as it does wood. Bullnose for stair treads, etc.
Cheap (Irwin 40T) 10" carbide blades are readily available.

I also limit the crown I install to the narrow (3") variety.

I'm sure my needs are different than yours. I need portable because my tools spend a lot of time onsite on the houses we (my wife and I) "rescue" (my term for rehab). I also need something cheap since possible theft is a concern.

If the saw is going to spend it's whole life in your shop and you plan on using the extra 2", then a 12" would be the way to go.
12" saws aren't all that portable, which is one main reason I go 10".
The other resaon being, I can't see anywhere that I'd ever need the extra 2".

[bill mullin]

I don't know how many guys here are trim carpenters, but I am. I've hung crown in nearly every house I've trimmed over a period of almost 25 years. One thing I learned early on is that crown is never as easy as 1-2-3. There are many things about a house that can conspire against it being easy. Anyone selling a tool guaranteed to to make it easy as 1-2-3 is, IMO, a huckster preying on people who don't know any better.
My advice for a first timer to crown would be to hire a pro for a few hours to do maybe one small room, and watch and learn. Heck, for the price of that "tool", I would come over and spend a day and teach someone pretty much all they need to know to hang crown in their home.

[johnny means]

Anyone selling a tool guaranteed to to make it easy as 1-2-3 is, IMO, a huckster preying on people who don't know any better.

Amen to that.



Heck, for the price of that "tool", I would come over and spend a day and teach someone pretty much all they need to know to hang crown in their home.

Possible business venture?:)

[Mike Rees]

Looks like its going to be the 10" miter saw for me. My neighbor has the 12" version - I'm welcome to borrow it anytime so for the few occasions that I may need to cut something big (like the expected 6x6 beams for under my shed), I can just borrow it short term. Otherwise I can use the 10" - which is really all I think I need for the majority of the time.