Don't throw away your dovetail marker

[Auguste Gusteau]

In a recent post on Christopher Schwarz blog, you can read about Roy Underhill who says to throw away your dovetail marker.

I say "don't do it".
Because it is a convenient, fast, accurate and inexpensive tool.

Oh, yes, you could use a bevel gauge to mark oblique lines and a 90° square to mark straight lines as Roy recommends.
Or you can use no tools at all and cut them by eye, with a bit of practice it is not so difficult.
But I think that a dovetail marker is very useful because with the same tool and without moving it, you can mark either straight and oblique lines with a high degree of accuracy.
Furthermore dovetail markers cost very little and/or are very easy to make by yourself.

Below are some photos of my homemade dovetail markers so if you need you culd take inspiration from.
Feel free to ask me more detailed photos if you are interested in some particular item.

You could also see a copule of homemade self-ideated bevel gauge with presetted angle for dovetail joints, but they are not very useful because they don't have the possibility to trace the straight line (i use them only for long dovetail joints)
For a similar reason, you should also stay away from these kind of dovetail markers (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=32586&cat=1,42936,50298&ap=1).


Auguste who apologizes for his bad English

[Auguste Gusteau]

I forgot to ask you to post pictures of your homemade dovetail markers so that also I can take inspiration for my next projects.


Auguste who apologizes for his bad English

[Brian Kent]

Auguste,

Thank you for the first half of your post. Those are good points about dovetail markers and some beautiful examples of home-made markers. That's what I love here - exchange of ideas about wood working.

Keep up the great woodworking posts.

Brian

[David Gendron]

Where are you from Auguste? nice wok on the dovetail markers!

[Zahid Naqvi]

Auguste, Like the other two posters above me have said, your message is an interesting read and you provided some very unique solutions regarding shop made dovetail markers. I am embarrassed to admit that I use the LeeValley dovetail "saddle" and I am guilty of liking it as well ;-)

[Bob Smalser]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5732475/73536955.jpg

You can hold them perfectly square during assembly by using the miter gage slot on a machine table as a jig.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/68779301.jpg

Note the use of scrap brass plate scrounged from the forestry department. ;)

[Auguste Gusteau]

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5732475/73536955.jpg

You can hold them perfectly square during assembly by using the miter gage slot on a machine table as a jig.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/68779301.jpg

Note the use of scrap brass plate scrounged from the forestry department. ;)
Thank you Bob for your advice.
Is never an easy way to assembly two pieces perfectly square. Especially when using an epoxy glue and you do not want to mess a try square.

[John Shuk]

Having read the Blog I got from it that Mr. Schwraz was reporting on Roy Underhill's approach to dovetails.
What works for some in woodworking does not work for others. Every persons ability and understanding of what they are doing is different. I would not try to make some of the cuts I have seen from Sam Maloof on the bandsaw... yet his results speak for themselves.
I've been shown things in woodturning work very well and then had people whose opinions I value say that it just won't work that way. I try to listen to the reasoning behind all methods and decide what fits my typical method of work.
All that said is it really that important to be viewed as correct?

[Auguste Gusteau]

Where are you from Auguste?

I come from a country on the Mediterranean Sea


nice wok on the dovetail markers!

Many thanks, David.

[Auguste Gusteau]

All that said is it really that important to be viewed as correct?

I'm with you, John.
There is not a correct way to go somewhere.
Some roads are easier, some harder, some more fun, others are more tedious, but if they carry you in the right place who cares?


Auguste, who apologizes for his bad English.

[Auguste Gusteau]

Those are good points about dovetail markers and some beautiful examples of home-made markers.

Many thanks, Brian.

[Joe Close]

I think one of the points Roy was trying to get across is that dovetails don't have to be so exact, or engineered to the n'th degree in their layout. If the spacing "looks" pleasing to the eye, then it is good enough for that piece.

It seems, to me anyway, that a re-occurring theme in this and other forums is extreme degree to which tools and layouts are measured. Measurements in the thousands of an inch. Tolerances that one would see at NASA, mainly in tool setups. It seems to me kind of overkill sometimes. We are talking about "wood" here, not the fitting of two bearing surfaces in a jet engine. I digress... Back to Roy.

I think what Roy was trying to say is that woodworking does not have to be so precise at times. Just try a less precise method and see how it turns out. You might be surprised.

[Auguste Gusteau]

It seems, to me anyway, that a re-occurring theme in this and other forums is extreme degree to which tools and layouts are measured. Measurements in the thousands of an inch. Tolerances that one would see at NASA, mainly in tool setups. It seems to me kind of overkill sometimes. We are talking about "wood" here, not the fitting of two bearing surfaces in a jet engine.


I'm with you, Joe.
I laugh when, for example, I read someone who sand a wooden fence to 0.001 flatness on a granite surface plate.
But a dovetail marker is not anything like that, it's just a small tool that simplifies life and I don't feel good to throw it away.
Not after I spent so much time to build so many... :-)

[Keith Christopher]

After reading the article, I walked away with this. To me he is saying don't be hung up on the science of a dovetail, use a few guidelines to make sure it's strong enough but mostly, put your own touches on things. I have to agree, too many machines cutting dull or uninteresting dovetails. And heaven forbid someone like roy or james come in a stir things up by telling someone to do something original or differently. I guess views like this make them heretics in woodworking circles. ultimately make something pleasing to the eye, gentle to the touch and functional. and who gives a crap who disagrees with your technique.

[Joe Close]

...and I don't feel good to throw it away.
Not after I spent so much time to build so many... :-)

I don't believe Roy's comment was to be taken literally, (meaning for everyone to actually throw them away). It was his way of saying for everyone to "really" try making DT's w/o the tool.

[Brian Kent]

I think I want to go back to using a dovetail marker. I love Frank Klausz freehand technique and have used it on a couple of projects. I want to use a marker again to practice consistent angles.

[Jim Koepke]

Nice markers Auguste.


I've been shown things in woodturning work very well and then had people whose opinions I value say that it just won't work that way.

Fortunately, I learned young that the word impossible should not exist.

Glenn Drake was showing off his unmarked dovetail making abilities at a tool show I attended a couple of years ago. Works OK if one goes tails first.

For my dovetail making enjoyment, they still get marked then cut.

jim

[harry strasil]

This Post brings to mind a couple of memories.

1. I was at my first guild meeting a long time ago and the demonstrator who was a retired machinist was encouraging the use of Machinist tools and measuring devices, when another neander who was setting with me at a table, commented. "He's doing Brain Surgery on Wood"! To which I busted out laughing and got some nasty stares.

2. Another time was when I read a comment by some tailed tooler, that you should use a knife to make a mark at the bottom of machine cut dovetails, so they looked hand cut.

[Joe Close]

2. Another time was when i read a comment by some tailed tooler, that you should use a knife to make a mark at the bottom of machine cut dovetails, so they looked hand cut.

lol :d :d :d :d (<--those are suppose to be smile faces laughing, but icons seem to be disabled on this thread). :D:D:D:D

[Jeff Wittrock]

This Post brings to mind a couple of memories
...that you should use a knife to make a mark at the bottom of machine cut dovetails, so they looked hand cut.

If someone wants them to look like my hand cut dovetails, he should also use a big screw driver and jimmy up the edges so they don't fit so well.

-Jeff

[Rob Young]

This Post brings to mind a couple of memories.

2. Another time was when I read a comment by some tailed tooler, that you should use a knife to make a mark at the bottom of machine cut dovetails, so they looked hand cut.

OK, I'll admit that I have used a marking gauge to score along the base-line dovetails for drawers. But NOT because I wanted it to look hand cut. It was so the outer fibers of the board would be scored and come away clean instead of tearing when the bit exits. And it was easier to set the bit depth because you could catch the bottom of the carbide in the score line.

If you want a hand-cut look, then you hand cut them!
(But if you want to replace a bunch of kitchen drawers then a router and a jig is in order. :rolleyes: I think the family that previously owned my house had kids that liked to climb and hang on the drawers...)

[David Gendron]

Here is the one I made... also mae the mallet, but that's an other story!!
just finished a try square, I'll post some pictures later!

[Chris Friesen]

Glenn Drake was showing off his unmarked dovetail making abilities at a tool show I attended a couple of years ago. Works OK if one goes tails first.

I don't get why it needs to be tails first. Either way you just cut the one side, then mark the second side from the first and saw to the line.

[David Gendron]

I think Frank Klaus is doing pins first and does it by guess work!

[Derek Cohen]

I mostly use a dovetail marker. I find that this helps me set out the markings more appropriately for the piece (rather than guessing at this). In any event, the marks from a dovetail marker are still only guidelines - I am not really concerned whether I keep perfectly to the line when sawing the tails, as I do first. The important lines are the ones that are traced from the tails to form the pins.

Here are some I have made ..

A dovetailed and infilled dovetailed marker (1:7 - which I use mostly) ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Dovetailsaddlesquare2.jpg

.. and a set of four in brass (1:5, 1:6, 1:7, 1:8). I made up a bunch of sets for sale at one time (no longer - they required too much effort!), and wrote up a tutorial for those interested ... http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/Dovetailmarkersinbrass.html

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Marking%20and%20Measuring/Dovetailmarkersinbrass_html_48e46b7.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Eric Brown]

I suppose if I did woodwork every day, all day, I would get to the point where everything comes naturally and with confidence. However, I work 10 hour days (plus travel - no woodwork) and therefore don't spend much time doing woodwork. Using a gage for dovetails gives me a standard reference that has been proven to work over time. Once I become more experienced I will experiment. For now, I can't afford to make the same mistake once.

Eric