Hand tools newb questions

[Stephen Saar]

So I've been getting in to wood working recently and have mostly focused on the power tool side of things, but I'm interested in learning to do some hand tool based work. I've been looking around a little bit, but I mostly know power tools, so I'm a little lost when it comes to hand tools. I've been looking at getting some planes, but I noticed that a lot of the planes are very expensive. The only planes that I've found that seemed reasonably priced (for my budget that is, I'm not discounting the craftsmanship of the more costly planes) are the Stanley planes. Are these pretty decent planes, or is it not worth it at all to buy these planes?

Also I keep on seeing the different numbers with the plane, but I can't seem to find any information on what the numbers actually mean. What's the difference between a #4 plane and a #5 plane.

Also do you guys have any recommendations for good books to learn about working with hand tools. My main interests are in planes, and hand sawing for smaller detail work, i.e. dovetails, etc.... I don't have any intentions of doing hand drilling or anything like that.

Thanks for any help.

-Stephen

[derek sikes]

I'm not in the same boat, but I'm paddling in the same river as you, I've just gotten a bit further up the stream (although not by much). :)

Just about every hand tool question I've come up with has been answered somewhere in the sticky'd Wisdom/FAQ thread.

http://70.169.135.35/showthread.php?t=103805

In my very humble opinion I've found that If you have more time then money then your best bet is to shop around for used planes that are from the early 50's and earlier (earlier being better) and tune them up.

If you have more money then time and like the idea of having a tool that is going to perform out of the box the Lie Nielsen's and Lee Valley/Veritas tools are a great place to start.

[Michael Faurot]

Also I keep on seeing the different numbers with the plane, but I can't seem to find any information on what the numbers actually mean. What's the difference between a #4 plane and a #5 plane.

Also do you guys have any recommendations for good books to learn about working with hand tools. My main interests are in planes, and hand sawing for smaller detail work, i.e. dovetails, etc.... I don't have any intentions of doing hand drilling or anything like that.


Get a copy of Christopher Schwarz's Hand Plane Essentials (http://www.lostartpress.com/product/bdc5aa47-5475-49f9-a2e5-b537293f4723.aspx), that'll answer all the questions you might have regarding what the different numbers mean for bench planes and actually how to use them.

[Stephen Saar]

DOH!, It's sad when I miss the very first post on the board and it's a sticky and it even says it's a FAQ.

And thanks for the link to the book. I'll check it out.

[Griph0n Brown]

http://popularwoodworking.com/article/understanding_bench_planes

I think this is the handplane book by Schwarz. Good luck

[jim hedgpeth]

Basically budget planes go something to this effect,

Hardware store Stanleys and others are pretty much paper weights. The exception being the Stanley 9 1/2 and 60 1/2 block planes, which are workable. The new Stanley "Sweethart" planes are supposed to be good, but I doubt they show up at your corner hardware store. Besides, too close to the $$ for a Veritas to worry about them IMHO.

Cheap, but good if you take the time to tune them= OLD (pre 50s) Stanley. For a step up in Stanleys look for the Bailey line, readily available in junk shops or on ebay for $20-up, sometimes less. The best of the old Stanleys are the Bedrocks, #s like 604 605 607 are Bedrocks, and often get expensive fast.

Best "value" IMHO is Veritas. Not as pretty for the most part as LN planes, but they work GREAT. Not cheap, but if you figure in the time you DONT spend tuning them up, very good value. Sharpen and go tools.

Lie-Nielsen planes are a little prettier and function as good as or better, depending who you ask, than the Veritas planes.

Then you get in to Carl Holtey, Sauer and Steiner, Speir and other very expensive planes. You want to see expensive, google any of these.:eek:

Any plane, from where ever, will need sharpened to a "razor" edge. Without good sharpening all will lack in performance. On a budget the scary sharp system is great. If plate glass is not readily available, a cheap mirror ($10 at Walmart) will work, as long as it is glass, not those plastic ones. Also get the adhesive backed 3M stuff, a sample pack will last quite a while if you cut them in thirds. Gives you 3 roughly 3.5"x8" from each sheet. Best prices I have found and good people to deal with here. I suggest trying the pack with 1 of each grit and buy more when you see what you use up fastest.
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=ST-MAF.XX&Category_Code=THS

Good thing about any of the hand planes I mentioned, they hold value well. If you descide to sell them you can get most of what you paid back as long as they are not damaged.

Sorry I got long winded, but I just went through this phase and know this info helped me. Hard learned tip, good tools only bite the wallet once. Cheap ones bite a second time when you replace them with the good ones you should have bought to begin with.

Jim

[Jim Koepke]

About all that is left to say is some of my favorite planes were cheap old Stanley/Bailey style planes made before 1900. The newest bench plane used in my shop was made before 1930.

From my #3 to my #8, the most expensive was the #8 at $50.

The #1 and #2 are a bit more costly and most people would say they are not a useful size.

Some of the planes were useable when they were acquired. Most needed at least a sharpening. Many needed little work. Only a few of them were as bad as the #7 shown in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQ thread on Fettling Old Metal Planes. That is one of my favorite planes these days. Fixing up an oldie like that seems to cause bonding or something.

With patience and enhanced rust hunting skills, it is possible to get some great bargains. The real bargains may require a little extra work or finding parts.

jim

[Matt Evans]

There are lots of different publications that help out when it comes to using hand tools. I have found a lot of good information here on this board, and also a lot of good information in the various woodworking magazines (Namely Fine Woodworking and Popular Woodworking) You have to sort through the information, some of it power tools and some of it hand tools, some finishing related, etc., but they really are worth it.

The type of woodworking you do is a major factor when it comes to buying hand tools. My thought has always been to have the tools you need, and when you have the extra, get something that you want.

I do a lot of cabinets, which have dovetailed drawers, rail and stile doors, raised panels, dadoes, profiled edges, trim (which has coped joints, miters and profiled edges) and sometimes carvings.

Someone making small boxes will use dovetails, profiled edges, and some trim.

Furniture is a wide term, but most of it is constructed roughly the same way. You would use mortice and tenon joints, dovetails, trim, profiled edges, inlays, frame and panels, miter joints, dadoes and scrollwork.

Someone who makes and installs molding (Trim, stairs, flooring, etc.) uses tongue and groove joints, radiused and profiled edges, coped and miter joints, mortice and tenon joints, and bores lots of holes for fitting molding around fixtures.

Doors, Windows and wall panels are trim mixed with rail and stile, frame and panel, and lots of shallow mortices.

The sets of tools you need for each varies slightly, but the basics are often the same. The scale of your work also determines which tools to get. (A box maker might do dovetails, as do cabinetmakers, but the box maker works in a smaller scale.)

The common denominator in all of these is wood. You need it, and you need it at the right dimensions to begin with. So, that is where I would start.

Wood dimensioning tools: Good handsaws, rip and crosscut, scrub plane, Jointer plane, Smoother plane, A good ruler, marking gauge, marking knife, straight edge and winding sticks, try square, saw bench.

No matter what the work is, you want to be able to install it and cut small radii. A good coping saw or turning saw is perfect for this, in conjunction with rasps and files.

On to dovetails. Good ruler, dividers, try square, bevel square, marking gauge, marking knife, chisels, Dovetail saw, bench with vise, mallet, block plane.

Mortice and tenons: tenon saw, try square, good ruler, marking knife, marking gauge, mallet, mortice chisels, block plane, bench with vise. Either a router plane or shoulder/rebate plane help with the fit and finish, but this can be done with chisels and a knife as well.

Trim: a few different hollow and round planes, as well as a profile or three that you like, good ruler, marking gauge, mitrebox, coping/turning saw, block plane, brace and bit for installing around outlets and fixtures, hammer and nail set, a basic set of good chisels.

Frame and panel: The mortice and tenon tools, as well as a panel plane, a fillister plane to cut the groove, and some good files to make sure everything fits right.

Inlays I will let someone else cover. I don't have the experience needed to give advice in that area.

A few thoughts on saving a couple of bucks: Get the tools to dimension stock. Master this, and you have a head start on a lot of your other joints, since you'll have the experience with the basic tools of the trade.

If you are doing small work, don't get a jointer plane yet, get a #5. Make a shooting board and cut your miters by hand, finishing them up on the shooting board. Saves the cost of the miter box. (If you are doing trim install this is not a good idea, but for someone doing small amounts of trim on cabinets or boxes it works out well.)

Pick a few kinds of joints you are likely to use. Master these first, then move on to the next. I recommend mortice and tenon joints to start, but everyone has their own opinion.

This is not complete , by any means. I am not going to tell anyone they MUST have this tool or that to do something, or that they don't need a tool to do something. There are a hundred different ways to accomplish any task, and most of them are correct. I have a pretty basic setup myself, and it takes care of most of my needs for cabinets and furniture. If I started doing a lot more period pieces I would expand the tool collection, but I am not about to do that until I need to.

Most of all, figure out what makes it enjoyable. I need my coffee, music and solitude, and progress at the end of the day to enjoy myself. So I consider the radio and coffeemaker a first step in assembling any toolkit.I then go on to the other tools I need.

[Richard Niemiec]

Go here:

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To.htm

Many topics, worth a visit.

[David Gendron]

Matt, this is a great break down! that should go into the wisdom thing...

[David Gendron]

Thank you Gichard pr the link!

[Danny Thompson]

Your best bet is finding a mentor. What part of the country are you in?

[Stephen Saar]

I live in Atlanta. I actually signed up for a class on the 24th and 25th at Highland Hardware for "Hand Joinery for Fine Furniture Making with Frank Klausz". I'm hoping it will be good.

Thanks for all the help.

-Stephen Saar

[Jim Koepke]

Matt, this is a great break down! that should go into the wisdom thing...

My thoughts also. Maybe it could be started as a new thread for anyone who would like to add their suggestions.

Surely someone who mostly makes chairs would have a different list than someone making cabinets, than someone making presentation boxes or even someone like myself who just kind of putters around with a little bit of this and a little bit of that.

Even what woods or how much has to be done to the wood can make a difference in one's plane strategy.

Then there are the different tastes for tools. Many have valid points in the eternal debate over buying new versus buying used.

Bevel up and bevel down is another area of discussion.

Just a thought.

jim