Sharpening entirely with diamond stones/plates

[Dan Barr]

I'm thinking about cconverting entirely to diamond stones/plates for all of my sharpening needs. Any drawbacks/advantages before I tool up? (with the exception of using a strop after i get to 6/8000 grit)

I've been using a combo of things right now. a coarse Diamond stone for minor adjustments to initial bevel (i use a jet wet grinder for putting on a new bevel)

i follow up the coarse stone with waterstones. 1000/6000 combo. hone up on both, then i move to a strop with the yellow flexcut compound for a final polishing.

I'm wanting to get rid of the waterstones as they wear out quickly, require constant levelling and are going to eat up more money in the long run.

any drawbacks to using only diamonds?

(i know the diamond stones arent always as flat as i'd like them to be. )

thanks,

dan

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Dan

I am not sure if I follow your planned route.

You also need to realise that diamonds are not forever ... they wear out, and in the long run they are more expensive than waterstones.

As far as I am aware, DMT offer 275 grit (Extra Coarse), 325 (Coarse), 600 (Fine), 1200 (Extra Fine) and 8000.

The jump from 1200 to 8000 will be OK if you use your Jet wet grinder to create a hollow grind and always hone a microbevel.

Using the Jet you only need the 1200 and 8000 diamond stones. The 1200 will straighten the bevel off the Jet, and the 8000 will polish the edge. Follow this with Flexcut or Veritas green rouge if you wish.

Regards from Perth

Derek (who does have a few diamond stones but prefers Shaptons)

[Dan Barr]

but i think waterstones are going to eat more money over the long term.

Yep, i use the Jet to put a hollow ground bevel on the metal. However, I dont maintain a hollow ground bevel on any particular tool. Once i have the blade honed and in working condition, i rarely need to go back for a new hollow grind. it just seems like a waste of metal for the most part.

I guess im going to have to find out the hard way how long a diamond stone will last.

any estimates?

cheers,

dan

[Barry Vabeach]

Dan, I don't know how long a diamond stone will last, though IIRC, there are certain types of steel that chew them up quicker than others. I am a poor example because I bounce back and forth from system to system, but have used diamond paste and that works pretty well - though I don't know how long it lasts, I read somewhere that it is pretty economical.

[Mike Brady]

Diamond stones offer some distinct advantages: they are quick to getting working and out of the way when you are finished. The bad news is that they don't do an adequate job of putting a fine edge on your tools. By that I mean that your chisels and plane irons need to be taken beyond the limits of sharpness afforded by diamond stones. I have to admit that I have no experience with an 8000 grit diamond plate. I had read a few comments about them that were not generally favorable.
Another advantage is that they give you a way to advance through course and meduium grits without the dubbing side effects of sandpaper. Again, you need to go beyond diamonds if you want the best results.

[Dan Barr]

Mike,

you say to "go beyond diamonds" but this seemingly contradicts the fact that diamond stones are available in 8000 grit. I think 8000 grit is going far enough in most cases. i don't know a lot of people that spend much time "beyond" 8000 grit.

I polish on a strop with the flexcut compound after 6/8000 grit. this is "going beyond" as well.

maybe i'm not following what youre saying.

are you suggesting to go into the 12000 and 15000 and higher grits?

or are you inferring that diamonds are the "easy" or "amateur" method as opposed to waterstones, shaptons, scary sharp, etc.

please clarify on "beyond". I would like to know what you know.

Thanks,

dan

[David Gendron]

If you want stones that wear slowly, don't cost to much,without a mess and cut fairly fast(nothing like good water stones...)Norton Oil stones would be a solution to your "problems"!

[Narayan Nayar]

Dan,

I'm not a sharpening scientist. So I can only speak from experience. I have a few diamond stones (DMTs, mostly, but also the Odate crowning plate) and use them often to get past a nick if I don't want to grind. But lately I haven't been using them at all and use only waterstones.

What I can say, and perhaps what Mike was getting at, is that a given grit on a diamond stone does not leave as fine an edge as the same grit with other sharpening media. Again--I can only speak from experience here, and if you have both a diamond stone and a waterstone in the same grit (or rough equivalent), I'm sure your experience would tell you the same, though I hear the dia-sharpes are better stones for honing purposes than the DMTs.

In the end though, I suspect I'm equating "scratch pattern" with "edge fineness" which is a terrible way to evaluate. A year or two ago I stopped caring about theoretical sharpness and basically evaluated an edge on its ability to cut, and I've been much better off since. I suppose there's some pride in using a tool knowing that it has been sharpened to theoretical perfection, but in the end if I'm getting the results I want, I could care less if the microbevel has a mirror polish or not.

I understand there are financial concerns in your question, but really, I've been at this a few years and I've gone through one, maybe one and a half waterstones, all low-grits which wear much faster than the higher grit stones (and grits which I don't use anymore). The cost savings would be negligible for most people, I think, and it might take quite some time to "break even" assuming you're going with high-quality diamond stones.

Anyway, I'd suggest borrowing some diamond stones for a weekend to see if they leave you with acceptable edges/performance. That's the test that matters, and any decision you make regarding your sharpening setup would fall from that.

[Larry Williams]

...I guess im going to have to find out the hard way how long a diamond stone will last.

any estimates?


Dan,

Diamonds are an amazing abrasive, they'll cut anything. One downside is that they're slow cutting because of their faceted soccer ball shape. Other abrasives look more like jagged icebergs.

There are also a couple more downsides to diamonds. You can't put much pressure on diamonds, they'll fracture easily under pressure and go away quickly when abused. The biggest issue though, is the matrix diamonds are mounted in. I know DMT says their diamonds are set in a nickle matrix.

Let me tell you about an experience I had. A few years ago I was working on some specialty O-1 plane irons that needed to be ground to a pretty exact width and they needed some accurate side clearance angles ground at the same time. I just ordered some diamond wheels (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMCTLG=00&PMAKA=09011057&partnerURL=http://catalogs.shoplocal.com/mscdirect/index.aspxopagename=shopmainPcircularid=15382Pstor eid=1040626Ppagenumber=1492Pmode=) for the KK Calamar (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMCTLG=00&PMAKA=09011016&partnerURL=http://catalogs.shoplocal.com/mscdirect/index.aspxopagename=shopmainPcircularid=15382Pstor eid=1040626Ppagenumber=1492Pmode=) grinder we use in our metal shop for sharpening some of the metal working tools because I knew the grinder had the accuracy and capability to do what I needed.

If you clicked on the link for the wheels, you can see they don't give them away. I was a bit horrified to wear out one of those wheels on the second iron and in just maybe 15 minutes of grinding. I called the manufacturer and asked for a tech rep. I explained what had happened and that I still had 38 more irons to grind.

He said that the diamonds are mounted by electroplating over them with nickle and the nickle is intended to wear away and expose more of the diamonds as their top structure spalls away. He explained that I should never grind steel or other metals that render a stringy swarf when ground. The stringy swarf is much like very sharp steel wool and quickly wears away the nickle which releases the diamonds to just fall away. The nickle matrix is intended for materials like carbide or stone that generate a granular swarf when ground. This granular swarf doesn't undermine the nickle like a stringy swarf and allows the grinding wheels to last a long time. He told me I might be able to extend the life of the wheels slightly by hardening the steel before I grind but he still wouldn't advise me to continue doing what I was.

I still use DMT extra coarse stones but only to maintain my oil stones. I'm amazed at how long the DMT lasts when only flattening our oil stones but I found another method to grind those plane irons.

My experience is that well dressed and maintained oil stones cut as fast as water stones, stay flatter, and require almost no maintenance time compared to water stones. A translucent hard Arkansas stone medium India will run about $130 and extra coarse DMT diamond stone about $90. These and a strop are all you need for bench chisels and bench plane irons. My guess is that one each of these will probably last the average woodworker a life-time.

[David Gendron]

Well said Narayan! One thing I would add is other than smoothing planes, where a polished finish hedge is the way to go, it sur not requiered for a plane that is use for heavyer cuts... even if the sharper it is the easyer it is to push!!

[Bob Strawn]

I do use other sharpening medias at times, but for the most part I am a pure diamond fanatic. I use loose diamond grit on steel plates, rods and slivers, depending on what I am sharpening.

Here is an article I wrote on the subject. (http://battlering.com/overkillsharp.html)

Diamond grit is fast, ignores the hardness of different steels, and if you do it right, is the cheapest way to get top end results. I currently use annealed O1 plates as kanabans and use loose diamond grit on those plates.

Bob

[Steve knight]

Larry good info. for eyars no one could really explain why diamond didn ot work well on steel.
I tried diamond laps on my makita's and even with water they did not hold up well. I gave up and changed them over to sandpaper.
if you want stones that are fast and will last then get shapton stones. the only stones I never wore out. this is coming from someone who wore out norton 100's in a month bester stones in 3 and work out several makita slow grinder stones. use the diamond to flatten the stones not to sharpen with.

[george wilson]

My Spyerdco black and white ceramic stones are what I use after an initial bevel setting on a diamond stone to get rid of small nicks. The ceramic stones are A LOT harder than Arkansas stones. I made a knife out of D2 steel,and never could get it quite razor sharp. When I got the Spydercos,it sharpened right up. The steel was harder than the Arkansas stone! I strop after using the white stone. You should buy the superfine white stone,because it is ground flat,while the fine white stone isn't perfectly flat,and has to be flattened with a diamond stone. Guys have complained about it.

I wouldn't consider going to all diamond honing myself,as my system works quickly enough,and these stones do not wear out,or hollow.

[Mark Koury]

Larry,

Your insight about steel on diamond was an epiphany for me. When you mentioned that concept at your WWIA presentation, I suddenly realized why I’ve never had the kind of results with diamond sharpening as I expected. NOW it makes sense.

[Carl Maeda-San Diego]

I have used the scary sharp method for a long time but in the past few months, I did switch to diamond stones. The only problem I have encountered is that they are not always perfectly flat. I noticed this first when I switched stones.
Luckily, my super fine stone seems to be perfectly flat but I was never satisfied with my edge afterwards so I bought the Spyderco stones (the one that is white and 3" wide... its' relatively new) and that brought my edge to a mirror shine.
The ease of cut is amazing. I was blown away the first time I used the Spyderco for my final sharpening.

[Johnny Kleso]

Diamonds are to hard to really last a long time sharpening steel as the break and you have to rub off the matrix (steel) that holds the unbroken diamond crystal to make it cut..

To dress a diamond grinding wheel you just grind a piece of stainless steel ..

Diamond work much better on much harder steel like carbide..


I mainly use my diamond stones to dress my oil and water stones..

Try some oil stones for your coarser grits as fine grits you will have to use water or diamond stones

[Wilbur Pan]

i follow up the coarse stone with waterstones. 1000/6000 combo. hone up on both, then i move to a strop with the yellow flexcut compound for a final polishing.

I'm wanting to get rid of the waterstones as they wear out quickly, require constant levelling and are going to eat up more money in the long run.

If you are looking to switch to diamond stones for the later stages in sharpening, based on your experience I would suggest that the issue you're having isn't as much a waterstone vs. diamond stone issue as much as a soft waterstone vs. hard waterstone issue.

I've been using Shapton waterstones, and have not had issues with dishing or wearing quickly to the point where I thought that I had change sharpening methods. They do have to be flattened, of course, but they stay very flat in use, especially in the higher grits.

[Dan Barr]

I believe youre right. soft waterstones vs. hard waterstones might be the problem here.

Also, thanks to all you others as well for some valuable insight on the pro's and con's.

I kinda assumed all waterstones would wear like this and led myself to the diamond option. (which is now not sounding so "forever")

hmmm....

should i buy a shapton or two to find out?

hmmm.........

always more money.....

thanks,

dan

[Wilbur Pan]

Hi Dan,

Budget allowing, Craftsman Studios has the Shapton GlassStones at a discount. They have a note that Shapton raised prices recently, and their prices will go up on Oct. 15. It will be about $125 for a pair of 1000 and 8000 grit stones, which is about 10% off their list price, and you get free shipping for orders over $75.

Here's a link (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0000000.htm) to save you Googling time.

From what I could find, that's about the same price as a pair of 1000 and 8000 mesh DMT diamond stones.

Also, you don't need the glass diamond lapping plate. Whatever method of flattening you currently use for your waterstones will work on the Shaptons, although I've seen the glass diamond reference lapping plate up close, and it is nice. Even so, I don't have one.

[Harry Goodwin]

I own stones of every type and use them all but the gretest benefit right now at 74 is the diamond stones bounce off a concrete floor with little results compared with fragile other stones. No matter if your thinking about it or not as we get older things drop that never did that before. Harry

[Steve knight]

you need to put your stones on a table. I used for years a spare granite surface plate with sandpaper glued top it inside a rubbermaid tub. kept the mess in control and never had a stone fall to the floor. I drop a lot of stuff too.

[Mark Roderick]

I don't really know anything about diamond stones, but I'll say two things:

- I'm not aware that you can flatten a diamond stone. So unless you hit the jackpot and get one that's perfectly flat from the factory, you're never going to be using a flat stone, which defeats the purpose, especially at the high grits.

- Waterstones are not expensive. I use Norton stones, and besides putting a fantastic edge on the tool they last a long, long time. To put an initial bevel on a blade I use either a grinding wheel or rough sandpaper on glass. The stones are for the honing and as such they don't wear very quickly, even though I flatten them after each use.

[Eddie Darby]

if you want stones that are fast and will last then get shapton stones. the only stones I never wore out. this is coming from someone who wore out norton 100's in a month bester stones in 3 and work out several makita slow grinder stones. use the diamond to flatten the stones not to sharpen with.

Is that the Professional series, or the GlassStone series?

[Allan Brown]

How did our woodworking ancestors manage to build anything given their primitive sharpening equipment? Isn't it curious that we spend so much time seeking the Holy Grail (of whatever...the perfect edge, the perfect tool, the perfect tolerance, etc.), when our forefathers made do with so much less? Tool manufacturers/vendors perpetuate the fantasy that we could all do so much better if we only bought their latest offering. It's consumerism masquerading as craft.

I decided a good while ago that I'd rather spend my time building something that my children and grandchildren could use. They won't care how I sharpened my tools...they'll simply appreciate the result. To do otherwise with my time and talent seems a supreme waste.
Allan

[George Neill]

How did our woodworking ancestors manage to build anything given their primitive sharpening equipment? Isn't it curious that we spend so much time seeking the Holy Grail (of whatever...the perfect edge, the perfect tool, the perfect tolerance, etc.), when our forefathers made do with so much less? Tool manufacturers/vendors perpetuate the fantasy that we could all do so much better if we only bought their latest offering. It's consumerism masquerading as craft.

I decided a good while ago that I'd rather spend my time building something that my children and grandchildren could use. They won't care how I sharpened my tools...they'll simply appreciate the result. To do otherwise with my time and talent seems a supreme waste.
Allan

I've been an observer here for some years and haven't been compelled to post until now. The above coments are amongst the most sensible I've read to date. The pursuit of surgical precision in woodwork is wasteful and futile.
I bought some of the contents of a highly respected cabinetmaking shop spanning three generations of the same family and the work they produced was second to none. Some of it was presented to foreign dignitaries and celebrities etc. The only sharpening equipment in the shop was a hand cranked sandstone wheel and three well worn oil stones.

[dan sherman]

How did our woodworking ancestors manage to build anything given their primitive sharpening equipment? Isn't it curious that we spend so much time seeking the Holy Grail (of whatever...the perfect edge, the perfect tool, the perfect tolerance, etc.)

I take a slight exception to your comment...

While some might be in search of the perfect edge, I think a lot of people (myself included) are looking for time savers. For example I work 50+ hours, on top of that I have your typical household tasks and family obligations. So on a typical week if I'm not burnt out from work I might spend 4 - 8 hours in the shop. Thus I'm always on the look out for something that will let me spend more time doing what i want (making something not preparing to make something).

How many people on this form can honestly say they don't use a single modern time saving aide?

[Joel Goodman]

Our ancestors looked for time saving ways of doing things too!

[Mike Brady]

Dan, I think there were many good responses to your post. Most of them seem to steer you away from just diamond stones in your schedule of sharpening media. If you will indulge me, I will tell you what I do:

I need to end up with a sharp secondary bevel only, so my goal is to get a primary bevel as quickly and effortlessly as I can, using only hand power. I do use a jig all of the time. I feel that machines remove too much metal, too quickly and risk losing the temper in the steel. I usually use very coarse sandpaper for this primary bevel step. I use Norton water stones for the secondary bevel; 1000 and 8000 grits.

For the back of the blade or chisel I do use diamond stones for the initial lapping, to avoid any dubbing of edges or corners. I then use the same waterstones for for the finish lapping. I believe the the "ruler trick" is a useful alternative to lots of blade back lapping, but it is a shortcut. I radius my smoother plane bevels, again using a jig.

This is a very common sharpening routine. The equipment costs under $150.00. If you understand a wire edge, you will be successful using it.
The only step I may add to the above is a few strokes on a horsevbutt strop.

[Wilbur Pan]

How did our woodworking ancestors manage to build anything given their primitive sharpening equipment? Isn't it curious that we spend so much time seeking the Holy Grail (of whatever...the perfect edge, the perfect tool, the perfect tolerance, etc.), when our forefathers made do with so much less? Tool manufacturers/vendors perpetuate the fantasy that we could all do so much better if we only bought their latest offering. It's consumerism masquerading as craft.

To be fair, Dan's original question was regarding trying to find a substitute or fix for what he saw as unacceptable wearing and dishing of his waterstones, which can lead to a not very sharp tool. This is far from pursuing the Holy Grail of the perfect edge, or looking for surgical precision in woodworking.

[Dan Barr]

Yea,

i'm not looking for any holy grails. just an alternative to waterstones that i resent having to level/flatten so frequently.

Although, diamond stones are not guaranteed dead flat out of any box.

I guess im just going to have to live with the waterstones.

I'm going to try out those shaptons and see if they wear more slowly than the japanese stones ive been using.

However, If i ever see some diamond stones that i can put my hands on and verify flatness, i'm probably going to buy them.

Also,

Is there anything out there that takes off less of the waterstone when levelling? Im using a norton flattening/levelling stone (with diagonal lines carved in).

Thanks all for the info.

dan