This is a reply to a post in general tools and woodworking

[Curt Harms]

but it probably belongs in Off Topic

Quote from Mickey Cassiba:

I know I promised to bow out of this one, but guys...there is no more DELTA! It is Black and Decker Incorporated
Bottom line is money, not customer satisfaction, safety or any other noble ideal. Just money.

I'm sure that's true. But what prompted this attitude? In my probably-naive opinion, corporations in the '90's and early 2000's were having to compete for capital. There were some pretty lucrative places to invest money, returns of > than 10%/yr. (Bernie Madoff, anyone?). If whoever owned Delta at the time wanted to attract investment, they had to match that R.O.I. or be shut out of capital markets. So they ignored the little voice in the back of their head and did what they had to do to get those kinds of short-terms returns. Parts support for old equipment, even at inflated prices, is not yielding the sorts of return we need so out it goes.

Now

Delta used to be worth a premium because I could get parts for a machine built 30 or 40 years ago. Today that seems to be not true. So why is Delta equipment worth a premium over Grizzly, Shopfox and their ilk? Answer: It's not. Now, THAT'S making a brand more valuable:(.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

The problem as I see it Curt is very complex and while no single portion of a company or the market is to blame, they all have their share they should shoulder but none do.

The stockmarket, stockholders, company executives, workers, and even the customers all have a share of the blame for what's happened to Delta and other companies. And yet, nobody wants to accept their share of blame and learn from their mistakes.

But it really all boils down to narrow-minded, short-term goals based on greed by each of the groups involved.

[mickey cassiba]

Ken you nailed it! There is no one guilty party. The consumer is as guilty as the vendor, though I must take up for the employees at Delta and Porter Cable. Sure, there was dead weight there, but the incentive programs offered for product improvement and production streamlining gave us all a vested interest in producing the very best product for the least cost.
At the corporate level, the ideal became to please the stockholders at any cost, most of whom never had any idea what they had invested in...at the consumer level the goal was to purchase a premium product at a discount price. Each group had it's priorities, When Rockwell held the helm, the ideal was to produce the best light industrial tools possible. Rockwell model numbers changed over the years, but designs changed very little...., and upgrades and part substitutions were incorporated. Many of the old A4 belt sander parts are interchangeable with the PC model 504 sanders, When Pentair held the reigns, the model was to sell product and invade market niches that were formerly disdained(i.e.:the borgs and W*lMart). When B&D took over, the model became"Sell Sell Sell"
If a run of one million units only resulted in ten thousand returns it was deemed successful.
Curt, you are correct, this does belong in off topic, and I apologize to all for the rants, but I was there. I watched a label that I had known as a young man, as the "tool to buy" become just another box on a shelf.
Again apologies to all...I didn't mean to whack the hornet's nest, just felt obligated to shine a little factual light on the subject
Mickey Cassiba

[Neal Clayton]

When B&D took over, the model became"Sell Sell Sell"
If a run of one million units only resulted in ten thousand returns it was deemed successful.


which is why i'll reiterate my opinion that "made in the USA" is a political form of marketing that means nothing.

look at how many people have gotten help with issues with their tools on here by shiraz personally (who wasn't even born in the US :p). gonna get that from black and decker? doubt it....

not that i favor one manufacturer over another due to any loyalty, out of the larger stationary tools in my shop, i have models from 6 or 7 different manufacturers. i've got a PM tablesaw, a woodmaster planer+molder, a general mortiser, a bosch miter saw, an oneida dust collector, a grizzly jointer, etc. but i can tell ya from experience that the one i've had the most trouble with, the and the one of flimsiest quality, is a delta.

[glenn bradley]

I've said it before; we have done this to ourselves. We clamored for Nordstrom brands at K-mart prices and we got them; quality, reputation and integrity be danged. I have found quality still available at a good value. You just can't shop by brand anymore, you have to shop by the individual product.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Everybody....was in on it.

The executives running the company...... labor..........the stockholders in the company...the consumer ..everybody........

The American woodworking tool companies, for the most part, sat on their laurels and really didn't do us much initiative to expand, improve or increase their product lines or their customer base. Some very good companies like Delta survived by the reputation they had earned in the past. The labor was just as guilty.

I don't know the specifics of the labor in this industry but I'd be willing to bet it was like other manufacturing labor...negotiations with management with nobody really looking at the long term effects or the realities of the negotiations on the price of the product. In the meantime, management wanted increased output and labor developed an "we don't care"attitude towards quality. Management then overlooked quality.

Local, state and federal governments in an effort to pay for the wants and services of the voting public or to pay for programs that were costing more than forecasted, started increasing or inventing more taxes on the businesses.

Finally the profitability of the company decreased to the point where the company was sold. Sometimes this lead to factories being moved to other states that had traditionally lower labor costs. This continued until a buyer decided to it was cheaper to used out-of-country labor and either build a new plant or contract the manufacturing out to another foreign company.

And....John Q Public....he wanted to pay Wal-Mart prices for Mercedes quality and performance but if he necessary, he could give a little on quality to pay the price.

And yet....think about this....if all tablesaws were priced at the same price point as SawStops...how many of us could afford to be woodworkers? I'd have to think about it really hard and frankly, I make a good living...not a great living but a good living.

We live in a very complex society. Stockholders today are more traders than investors. They want a quick, unusually high return on their money/investments. We as consumers, most of us don't want to save longer to buy that more expensive tool, we want a tool now. People running companies....a lot of them are "ladder climbers". They make decisions now and they are gone....either up the ladder, sideways or on to another company before they can be held liable for their decisions. Labor like everyone else is selfish/greedy in it's desires.....they look only at their needs and think that even their brother union broom pushers deserve $28.00/ hour. The local governments...they want to support their uncontrolled, irresponsibly spending by taxing both the company and labor. Of course their constituency they want the government to do and provide everything without raising taxes. And the consumer wants to buy Mercedes-type products at Wal-Mart prices. And when it doesn't perform to their often unreasonable expectation, they want to go online to the Creek and whine before they take time to call the manufacturer and work it out.:rolleyes:

Don't think that everything made overseas is poor quality. That just isn't so. I was raised "oil-field trash" in the '50s and '60s. I wore clothes made in Japan then and frankly some of them you could only wash one time before they came apart at the seams. Look at how Japanese quality and the perception of quality of Japanese manufactured goods has changed in the last 40 years. I sit here looking at my Japanese made Fender Power Jazz bass guitar. Quality wise it is as good a playing bass as you could get for thousands more....just more humble woods used.... There is a Honda Accord and a Honda Pilot parked under the roof of my carport. Taiwan-manufactured products have come a long ways in that same manner. Look at Grizzly. I argued for months with a guy that years ago while on a farm in Michigan bought some Grizzly tools and he argued 15 years later with me that all Grizzly tools were one step below Harbor Freight's reputed quality. Then he visited a private, church-sponsored high school and had the opportunity to work for a couple days in their woodworking shop. He came back and in view of others who had heard our tyrades in the past, he appologized. Grizzly quality had improved dramatically over what he'd experienced over a decade ago. This is just one example. I am not employed by Shiraz and the cheapest and only Grizzly tool I have in my shop is my disc sander.

Everybody had a hand in creating this situation. When it becomes more profitable to produce things here, they will return. Companies are in the business of being profitable or going out of business. Period.

[John Pratt]

Wow, when I started this thread in the other section of the forum, I was merely looking to see why I didn't hear more reviews or recommendations for Delta brand tools or machinery. I had no idea that I would open up a discussion on economics or such heart-felt expression and disdain against Delta. I think it really comes down to the individual shop owners responsibility to research what tools they want or need in their shop. Personnaly, I put quality above price, others may have to weigh both equally, and still others do not have the income to spend exhorbitant amounts on the tools they need for their hobbies. I still think Delta has a place in the market, much the same as even lower end or top end manufacturers do. In so much that companies do place a premium on profit, it is after all a business put in place to make money. How many businesses out there, making very high end widgets, were no longer able to make a go of it because the consumer did not have the disposable income to purchase thier product? Some of these business reduced quality or pricepoint simply to bring the product into a range the average consumer could afford, thereby making them able to turn a profit through quantity of sales or to simply stay afloat. Most business owners are not so independently wealthy whereby they can disregard sales and still maintain a viable business. Share holders invest in a business to make money. If they are not making money they take their money elsewhere and the capital needed for the business with it.

As for me, I will continue to seek out the members of this forum for there advice, recommendations, and experiences related to product purchases. Thanks to all involved on this forum for their insight and honesty. This is one site where honest opinions are given without false representations do merely to members not wanting to admit buyers-remorse (for the most part). Thaks to all who gave such great response to the original post.