Afraid to ask but...

[Chris Padilla]

...what would you guys recommend to a beginner for his first couple of planes?

Should one go with some top-end stuff like Lie-Nielson or should I scour eBay and learn how to fix 'em so I understand 'em better?

One thing I need to learn, regardless, is to find a method of sharpening that I'm comfortable with or that works for me.

Finally, what kind of planes do you recommend for a "starter" set? What are maybe the top 3 or top 5 planes you use the most--that might be an interesting list to compile here.

I suppose first things first is that I should educate myself on all the different styles of planes available. I should head to the library for that or Amazon! :D Links to sites are appreciated, too. :)

I'm finding it fairly easy to stay away from spinny-tools but I'm hearing the call of long, frothy shavings falling silently to my feet a bit much to keep resisting! :rolleyes:

[Steve Beadle]

Chris, I'm sure you'll get a lot of responses to your question, and I'll be looking forward to reading them. I recommend Garrett Hack's book, "The Handplane Book," in order to get a thorough introduction to the world of handplanes. As to learning sharpening techniques, that topic is also covered in Hack's book. A new DVD by David Charlesworth has some really good stuff on plane sharpening. I think you can get it from Lie-Nielsen's website. I've also seen some good advice on sharpening on the web. I've used the scary-sharp method (see Mike Dunbar's short video on "Sandpaper Sharpening," I think it's called), and a combination of diamond stones and water stones, using honing guides. It's not hard to get a razor-sharp edge, especially if you end up using some rubbing/polishing compound on a leather strop.
As to specific planes, it kind of depends on what work you intend to do. There are a lot of different kinds of planes! Usually I hear people recommend getting a few "bench" planes, such as a #4 (smooth plane), # 5 (jack plane) and a #7 (jointer plane). Block planes (especially low-angle ones) are handy favorites. A shoulder plane is really good for trimming tenons to exact size. Then there are rabbet planes, plough planes, molding planes, compass planes, router planes, etc., etc.
Regardless of whether you opt to buy new or used, you'll likely have to learn how to "fettle" a plane, because there are few new planes that don't need at least a little tuning up. The range of prices is extremely broad, from the $5.00 flea market find, to planes that cost hundreds and even thousands of dollars.
I'll be watching this thread to see what some of our fellow Creekers have to say on this interesting subject!

[Pam Niedermayer]

I strongly recommend the LN Low Angle Jack as your first plane. It does a lot of tasks very well, from stock prep to jointing to smoothing, and is very easy to use. Then, at your leisure, you can upgrade as needed, replacing one function at a time with more specific planes. For example, a scrub plane will be needed for heavy duty stock prep.

Aside from that, I recommend wooden planes over any Stanley; but this is not the most popular advice.

Also, I understand the LV Low Angle Jack is just as good as the LN, certainly a lot cheaper; but that didn't exist when I got the LN.

As for sharpening, you can certainly start with sandpaper. That won't be the end of it, but it's certainly a good starter.

Pam

[Michael Stafford]

I use several planes that belonged to my father and grandfather. I find them to very acceptable, the only thing I have done is keep them adjusted and replaced the blades with aftermarktet blades. I have a #3, #4, #5, #6 and both of the block planes low angle and regular. I am not a purist, I just want a tool that works and can be kept sharp. I have been converted to waterstones and sandpaper. I love the sound of a sharp plane swishing through wood. I guess it all depends on what you have and what you get used to. Maybe I can talk wifey into a L-N one day.

[Jim DeLaney]

I'd go with the Lee Valley 4½ and the Lee Valley block plane. Add the LV Low Angle Jack plane for your third one.

If you're really flush, for about twice the money you could get the same sizes/types from Lie Neilson...

[Bruce Page]

Excellent question Chris – a question that I’ve been meaning to ask. I’ve been getting the neander itch and was looking at the LN low angle jack at Woodcraft last weekend. It was on sale and I almost bought it!

[Jamie Buxton]

Chris ---
A few weeks ago, Roger Nixon posted a link to this article http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/overview.html
on SMC. If you haven't already read it, I think you'll find it fascinating. It will appeal to the obsessive engineer in you, and also tell you a lot about sharpening and wear on blades. The guy has rigged up an inexpensive microscope which lets him really examine edges, and he's done really clean science about how they wear.

Jamie

[Bob Smalser]

Come North and visit sometime...

...we'll put together a prewar #4 and #5 that'll perform just as much as the new prestige tools in a few short hours for under 75 bucks. Maybe for under 50 bucks if you are willing to do more work.

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Smalser_on_RehabbingPlanes.htm

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Smalser_on_FiftyDegreeFrog.htm

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Smalser_on_FiftyDegreeFrogII.htm

http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Smalser_on_RehabbingWoodenPlanes.htm

For even less money we can resole transitionals...which are great planes that it seems collectors hate and only boatbuilders and shipwrights love...which is the cat's meow because the prices are ridiculously low.

We can get the transitionals to make gosamer-thin shavings across the full width of the blade, too...easier than with iron planes....and I don't care who made the plane, how pretty it is or how much it cost, it just doesn't get any better than that.

My work is more in boats than furniture, but I use the #3 and #4 the most....one set coarse and one set fine (don't buy into the Bedrock "ease-of adjustment" argument...they are all slow enuf to adjust that you'll want two smoothers set up for many jobs)....followed by the #93...followed by the #60 1/2....then the #4 1/2, the #5 and occasionally the #8.

[Greg Tatum]

Hi Chris...have you checked out this site for good plane info?
http://www.supertool.com/stanleybg/stan0.htm

Patrick has a mailing list that he sends out monthly with various hand tools (mostly planes) for sale....worth looking at just to learn about Stanleys.

I just have to ask ;) ....didn't you just get a pretty nice plane?

Greg

[James Carmichael]

I can't speak to the high end stuff and have no experience with the LA version Pam suggests, but I'll second a good jack plane (#5) as the best starter, IMO. A good basic set would be a #4 smoother, #5 jack, #7 jointer and low-angle block, followed by a rabbeting or shoulder plane of some sort.

[Steve Cox]

I would answer like James above with a couple of other points. Hand size has quite a lot to do with plane selection in my opinion. My smallest bench plane is a number 4. I cannot use a 3 even with my forefinger extended. I have a similar problem with my LN low angle jack in that there is no place to extend my forefinger to. My hands are larger than average so this may not be a problem with you but I hope you get my point.
My three most commonly used planes are a Veritas low angle block, an old Stanley #4 and and an old Stanley #6. Both my Stanleys have Hock blades on them and took quite a bit of tune up to get working properly. If you have the budget, all three of these can be obtained from Lie-Nielsen although it is not necessary to spend that kind of money to get a good plane.

[Alan Turner]

I will cast my vote with both James and Steve, with a comment. I prefer the LN Low Angle block, for its nice heft. I would probably go with a No. 7 as opposed to a No. 6. On one of the bench planes, an old Bedrock, thorugh the fettling process, has much to teach. Many of LN's designs are the Bedrock designs, but made to tighter tolerances,with a tweak here and there. YOu will need either a shoulder or rabbet plane, or both. I like the SM rabbet block, and the LV medium shoulder plane. I have both, and use them both with frequency.
A slippery, but valuable, slope.
Alan

[Mark Singer]

Chris,

LN low angle smoother, ECE 711 Primus smoother, LN 60.5 low angle block, Lee Valley Med Shoulder.....The LN planes are pricey but hold their value. I have seen used ones bring 90% on Ebay of original price.

[Steve Wargo]

#5 of any sorts and replace the iron with a Hock, LN or Holtey
#7 of any sorts and replace the iron with a Hock, LN or Holtey
LN 60 1/2 nothing more to say about this near perfect plane
Clifton 420 shoulder plane
and finally a LN 4 1/2 with 50 deg frog

The reason that I think the LN is essential to start with for a smoother is because of the nice tight mouth that they come with and the extra weight. It's hard to find an older (non- bedrock style plane) that has a tight mouth and good heft. A nice gentle camber on the iron and it's a great choice right out of the box. The other bench planes are just used for dimensioning and roughing out stock. So the finish is not as critical. I actually use my #5 more than anything, but I often joint pieces under 48" with it and use it to prepare most visible edges.
I think that a question that should accompany this is what woods will you be working with. If it's pine, poplar, mahogany, soft maple etc. then The original irons may be all that is needed. If you're planning to work with figured woods, veneer or harder lumber like teak, rosewoods, or ebony then thicker irons may be needed. I've found that if you really learn how to sharpen that most planes can produce acceptable results. A mirror finish on both the back or the iron and bevel are a must. Hope this helps and best of luck. IMO Low angle bench planes are just about useless in highly figured woods.

[Herb Blair]

Chis,
I started out with a #4 Stanley, then I got into planes and now have the following: #3,#4,#5,#6,#7,#78,#75,#90,#80,#12,#112,#60 1/2. Plus some others that I can't remember now. I also recently bought a #10 Rabbet plane from Highland Hardware. It's pretty good, but I think I was lucky.
I'm lusting after a LN Block Plane, but waiting for the show here in Dallas, as LN is supposed to be here.
I use the #4 and #5 alot. I have the #4 set up with the original blade to cut shavings about 0.003"from cherry. I have the #5 set up to take about twice that from cherry. I use the "scary sharp" method to sharpen the blades. I've tried water stones, etc, but I find the sandpaper method to be the fastest.
I would recommend that you pick up a #4 stanley, as they are fairly inexpensive on Ebay or flea markets. If the blade is shot, go for a Hock, a LN or a STW blade. I have a STW blade on order for the #5 that I want to try. I will give a report when I get it in. Another Plane I use alot is the #60 1/2 Low angle block plane from stanley. I think it's called a Low Block Plane Contractor grade now. A lot of sharpening and tuning of the blade and mouth will produce very fine shavings from the end grain of white oak.
IMHO I would start out with a good used plane and then go for the more expensive LN when I thought it is time to "graduate" to them.
That's my $0.02 worth.

[James Carmichael]

...I'm lusting after a LN Block Plane, but waiting for the show here in Dallas

Herb,

Can you give the details on the Dallas show? I hadn't heard of any.

Thanks,

James

[Don Kugelberg]

Chris,

If it was up to me, I'd take Bob Smalser up on his incredible offer. Your journey into handplane madness will be much quicker with a mentor. I think trying to learn to fettle and use hand planes on your own takes a long time and many give up before they reach their goal. If you price all the Lee Nielsen hardware recommended in the previous posts you will quickly see that a plane ticket to visit Bob is a bargain especially considering you will walk away with both instruction and user planes. Then you can join the ranks of the rest of us who lust after the high end planes!

[Robert Tarr]

Chris,
For most traditional cabinet/funiture making (especially Shaker and Craftsman style pieces) you need a hand full of chisels and 4 planes. You can add more to speed up the process or to get a special profile etc., but these 4 planes will ALWAYS do the majority of the work. They are the block (if it were me, I would buy a low angle), smoother, jointer, and a shoulder plane. To my way of thinking, since these 4 do the majority of the work, you should get quality planes to start with. If you have the time and skills to start with older planes, go ahead, with one major exception, that being the LV medium shoulder plane. It is just a better plane and unless you have access to a lot of woodies, probably cheaper than anything you will find in this space.

All that said, starting with a good new plane or using someone else's already fettled plane gives you something to shoot for. And as someone else mention, if the call to the "Dark Side" was a wrong number, there are no shortage of people on Ebay to pay 80-90% of new costs of LN and some LV planes.

If I had to put names against the planes that I suggested, I would go with the LN LA block plane ($150 for the adjustable mouth version (highly recomended), LV Medium Shoulder plane ($139), Older Stanley #7 or #8 ($50-$120 depending on condition and add $40 for a nice LN or Hock blade, if it needs it.), and if I were starting over again (and this will cause a fight), I would probably get the LN or LV Low Angle Jack with an extra blade to quickly changing angles. These are not the traditional smoothers, being that they are bevel up planes and much like a large adjustable mouth block plane. I have the LN #164 and find that I don't pick up my smoothers much at all anymore (with the exception of a very nice super high angle C&W wooden smoother, only used for very very difficult woods). These range from ($179-$225 both prices without the extra blade.) Since, these are not much more than a huge low angle block plane, I find I use them for a lot of block plane tasks as well. If you don't like the idea of these planes, then Bob S. advice of an older Stanley smoother (usable sizes are 3,4,5 and they are all the same angle, just different sizes) or transitionals are good, albeit require some additional time to make ready.

At the risk of repeating myself, I will say again, that these 4 planes do the majority of all the work and I personally feel they should be quality tools (new or old). I will also add another tool to the list that I use alot and that is the scrub. I have a power planer (12.5 inch) and a power jointer (8 inch) that I wouldn't be without, but the scrub is a great plane for quick work.

Once, you have these 4 planes, you will find areas that you would like to add to (like the scrub) or maybe would like to get a different profile (woodies or stanley 45/55) and can add at your leisure and whatever cost you would like. I think buying quality up front for the tools that get used most is a great idea, as if hand tools are not for you (I am certain you will always find a use for a block plane) you can sell them quickly and recoup most of your costs.

As for sharpening, find a system and stick with it until you get good at sharpening....after that, you can experiment on different media to see which is faster (read, I didn't say better, as sharp is sharp, regardless how you got there..)

Please ping me if you have any other questions.

Robert (ducking for cover)

P.S. Don't forget to add some card scrapers to the arsenal, which are little more than bodiless planes ($10-$15)

[Bob Smalser]

I remain absolutely gobstruck at what some of y'all are willing to pay for tools.

If you don't yet own any planes, that tells me you are new to this and will need an entire shop full over the next few years if you stick with it. My 40-year-old operation is rather austere by most standards...if it don't see use it gets sold...but it amounts to many thousands in replacement value....and the heirloom tools impossible to ever replace.

Unless you have unlimited means, consider what other needed tools you could acquire with the money saved spending your TV time rehabbing a few old tools. None of this is rocket science or even takes any sophisticated technique at all once you get past learning to properly sharpen....and sharpening ain't the thousand-dollar mystery folks trying to sell you stuff make it out to be, either...but a coach would help.

[Pam Niedermayer]

Bob, I suspect that you were never a beginner without tutor. I was, and wasted a lot of time chasing metal planes that would work. I knew little about what to do to get them to working shape. It wasn't until I got the LN LA jack that anything worked. From that restart, I knew a lot more about what I needed and how to rehab; but the first plane is critical.

Pam

[Denny Lawson]

Welcome to the "slope" Chris:D


Lots of good replies, here's my .02

I took Bob Smalsers advice several months ago when I wanted to aquire some hand planes.

I picked up a Stanley 3 ($27), 4($34), 5($42), 6($40), and couldn't have been happier.

I already had a couple of blocks, and since then.....well...er...um.....theres just lots of nice rust out there that needs a good home, ya see...I just can't leave them homeless can I?:rolleyes:

Planes
Chisels
Saws
etc
etc
etc

:eek:

[Chris Padilla]

Bob,

I happen to have a good college buddy living outside of Seattle that I visit every so often. I will look you up next time I take the family up there. I like your no nonsense, low-buck approach to tools.

Come to think of it, I should hit up dear old Dad and dear old Gramps and see what gems they might have lurking around their garages...dunno why I keep forgetting to do that! :(

[Don Kugelberg]

Now you're thinking Chris! Bob Smalser as a mentor, you couldn't ask for better. My odyessey down the slippery slope began with a woodworking with hand tools course at the local community college. Spent more than half of the twelve weeks fettling a #4 smoother and a spokeshave, sharpening a set of chisels, and learning to use a scraper under the direction of an instructor who knew what he was doing. We then built a small tool tote using only the hand tools we had prepared together with a japanese dozuki saw. It was the best twelve weeks I ever spent in a college and raised my woodworking to a totally new plain (no pun intended).

I now travel the fleas and search Ebay with confidence recognizing a restorable tool when I see it and knowing that I can fettle and sharpen any decent tool to maximum performance.

[Ralph Johnson]

HERB

what show is that. sounds good

thanks

ralph

[James Carmichael]

I remain absolutely gobstruck at what some of y'all are willing to pay for tools.

I'll second that, although as Pam points out, unless you're fortunate enough to have a mentor or unlimited time to experiement, it's helpful to handle a quality, well-tuned plane to understand what you're working towards. I'm learning a little at a time. I got an eye-opener when WoodCraft had a freebie plane-tuning demo earlier this year. Not much was demoed beyond sharpening on a Tormek, but I got to use some vintage Stanleys with Hock irons. Also, some good books on handtools like "Plancraft" or Garret Hack's book on handtools are helpful.

[Zahid Naqvi]

Chris,
I am probably the least qualified to offer any advice on this topic, but as I am a new woodworker with neander inclinations I thought you may be able to learn from my mistakes. I started my hand plane quest earlier this year. On advice from some creekers I decided to go with the old plane route, acquired a few old ones and rehabilitated them to usable condition. Can't say enough about how much I learned about each componant of a plane, and what part does what to make the plane perform the way it performs. Also, I think the most important skill to acquire is sharpenning. A truly sharp blade can make a remarkable difference in the performance of the plane.
Tuning a hand plane is not technically complicated, it just takes a lot of elbow grease. I have a #7 Sargent jointer acquired from a gentleman who goes by rarebear on the other woodworking forum, a #5 Stanley which I bought from ebay and tuned, and an el cheapo HD Buck bros. smoothing plane. My favourite plane of the lot is the #5. If you ask me any plane can be made to perform well. The really expensive ones, LN etc. come ready for use out of the box, the old ones require a lot of tuning to get them right. the $29 Buck bros. smoothing plane I have can take see through thin shavings which look like lace. It took me 20+ hours of rubbing and scrubbing and fidgetting, but I did get it done.
For first planes I would say limit your self to: a block plane, smoothing plane, and perhaps a jack plane. Since you probably already have a jointer and a thickness planer I would not get a jointer plane. The smoother and the jack plane will be enough to satisfy your neander yearnings, if you get hooked then the options are unlimited. The block is a valuable plane that everyone can use, neander or electron burner.

I guess by now you have figered out why they call it the slippery slope.

[Bob Smalser]

Bob, I suspect that you were never a beginner without tutor. I was, and wasted a lot of time chasing metal planes that would work. I knew little about what to do to get them to working shape. It wasn't until I got the LN LA jack that anything worked. From that restart, I knew a lot more about what I needed and how to rehab; but the first plane is critical.

Pam

Point taken, Pam....but don't overestimate "coaching" in a for-profit shop and yard.

I had great coaches...both finish carpenters and boatbuilders...and I can hump lumber, offbear the sawmill, TS and planer, stack and sticker, sweep up, gofer stuff, and hold up the end of a crown molding, garboard plank or transom with the best of them...world class, in fact.

But I did absorb some technique and standards....especially standards...working along side professional woodworkers and after some real coaching, I was eventually allowed to remain and sharpen their saws and edge tools after they went home for the day. You can also bet I received excellent professional feedback on my attention to detail in sharpening, too.

I never really made anything important on my own until I was a newlywed aghast at the price of poorly-constructed furniture....

...which is no different than most folks here.

[Rick Hoppe]

Chris,
Ian Kirby recommends a #4 1/2 Smoother and a #7 Jointer (L-N). The blades are exactly the same. Interchangable blades could be very handy. I could not flatten my benchtop with a power jointer and a #7 works beautifuly on a shooting board.
I would add a low angle block plane. These are by far the most used planes in my shop (though I own a #4, not a #4 1/2).

[Wendell Wilkerson]

Herb,

Can you give the details on the Dallas show? I hadn't heard of any.

Thanks,

James

There is a woodworking show at the Arlington Convention Center Dec 10-12.
I assume Herb is refering to this one since LN always shows up with stuff to drool over. There is a listing for a 3 hour seminar by Graham Blackburn entitled "Effective Handskills for the Modern Woodworker". The description looks interesting but three hours doesn't seem like much time for the amount of material to be covered.


Wendell
The Woodworking Shows - Dallas/Ft. Worth link (http://www.thewoodworkingshows.com/index.php?pageName=Show&eventName=Dallas%20/%20Fort%20Worth)

[Roger Turnbough]

If I had to start over from scratch knowing what I now know, I guess it would have to be a #3, #4 1/2, and a #6.

You can do pretty much everything with these 3 planes. Throw in a couple of different block planes and you have the basis of a good working set of planes.

As far as sharpening goes. If you have friends close, go see how they sharpen, and take a couple things along with you to try it out on. Each and every person has his likes and dislikes. Some like Scary Sharp, some like the wet grinders, some like water stones, while others like regular oil stones. There is really no right or wrong when it comes to sharpening, all will do a serviceable job. The biggest thing is to get with a system, and stick with it till you become proficient at it. You can buy a sharpening jig for your blades, or make one. The choice is yours. Some only jig sharpen, some only freehand.

You can spend a small fortune on New Iron, or a large fortune on new iron, or you can hit the fleas and the bay, and pick up a user set for under a 100bux, but these will take work to make them perform up to par.

Its just a matter of choice in the long run.

Good luck, and give a holler if I can help you out any.

Roger
South of Chicago

[Mark Stutz]

Chris,
I've been trying to get my feet wet on this side of the creek this past year. Rehabbing an old plane is definitely worth the experience, but using a new "modern" plane ( LN, LV, etc.) gives instant feedback on technique. The most instructive thing I did, however, happened just recently when I visited Dave Anderson NH and got to use a really sharp, well tuned plane, and got to compare several on the same board--LN, Knight, etc. Now I know what to shoot for!
BTW-- you are absolutely correct--the call of long,thin shavings in the stillness of your shop is irresistable! I'm just not sure what a "frothy" shaving is :D :confused: :D

[Chris Padilla]

I'm just not sure what a "frothy" shaving is :D :confused: :DMe neither, Mark, but it just flowed out of my fingertips on the keyboard! :D

......

So I come home last night and there are 3 packages on my porch. 2 were expected but the 1 was not. As I picked it up I could here stuff jingling around in it. Ah, then I noticed the business card attached to it and the name on the shoe box: Michael Perata...my flowering Neander ww'ing buddy!

Inside I found the two disassembled planes: Defiance by Stanely

Sigh, ask, and ye shall receive!! THANKS, MIKE!!!!! Too cool, I guess I have some planes to dink around with now! :D :D :D

[Chris Thompson]

I too am new to all of this, am in the process of gathering tools.

I had a brief fling with ebay in July that led to about seven old metal planes arriving. My favorite right now just based on how it feels in my hand is a Bailey #5C, Type 8 from 1890-1900ish. It's currently disassembled being refurbed, but is in fabulous shape. My cost: $17.99 shipped.

I also have a #4, type 11 in really good shape that was thrown in as an "extra" in an auction of a Record #4 and a Stanley block plane. My cost, $25.50 shipped.

Based on what I've read here, I'd be hard pressed to buy a LN or LV plane. Bob Smalser's pages have been a real inspiration to me.

I'm looking for a long jointer plane. Any Stanley #7 or #8 on ebay tends to climb towards (or over) $100. After reading all of Bob's pages, I'm now watching a 24" long wooden jointer plane, currently with zero bids, $15 starting bid.

The only problem I'm having right now is finding a suitable rabbet plane. I'm thinking of building my own with a Hock blade. (Any pointers on building your own wooden planes appreciated.)

[Chris Padilla]

Anyone know what the planes are in my post above?

[jay hanks]

I am no real expert but my guess is the smaller is either a #4 or #5 and the larger is either a #6 or #7. Just judging by size in the pictures. I am sure that they will make good users. Jay

[Dan Moening]

Chris,
Judging by the size of the totes I'd say the big one is on par with a #5 and the smaller one a #3. <a href="http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan1.htm">Blood & Gore</a> will have the lengths and widths for the "normal" Stanley planes. Compare the Defiance ones Mike sent you versus those on B&G.

Have fun!
Dan.

[Don Kugelberg]

Here's a handy cross reference from Jim Barker that I dug up years ago on the net covering Stanley, Record, Millers Falls, and Sargent bench planes. It has all the sizes of the standard bench planes so you can reference your Defiance planes against them to determine what sizes you have.

http://www.azstarnet.com/~barkerj/Smooth.htm

[Roger Nixon]

Anyone know what the planes are in my post above?
As you mentioned they are "Defiance" planes made by Stanley. The smaller appears to be the size of a Stanley Bailey #4 (9" long, 2" wide blade) and the larger looks to be a #6 size (18" long, 2 3/8" wide blade).

Now the bad news. As you can see, blades in Defiance planes rest on three post like castings instead of a frog as used in the Bailey type planes. This causes them to work poorly.

[JayStPeter]

As another novice plane user, I'll throw in my $0.02. Two years ago, I went to a seminar with Garett Hack and got fired up to use handplanes. I went out and bought a bunch of planes to try and learn. I have a couple old Stanleys from relatives #4 and #6. I bought a Bedrock #605, a LV LA block plane, and a LN rabbeting block plane. I also got a LV scraper plane for Christmas.
The only ones I really use are the LV LA block and the LN rabbeting block. I find the adjuster on the LV to be best for the novice. It is the easiest to set and adjust the blade to me. While I find the LV rabbeting block a little more difficult to setup, the ability to trim rabbets and tennons is definitely worth the effort.
Even after much effort and replacing the blade with a Hock, I still can't get the old Stanley #4 to work decently. I'll probably ebay it and buy a LV smoother. I just don't like the adjuster and really don't care to learn how to use it when better mechanisms exist. I haven't had a chance to tune and tryout the bedrock or scraper plane. I was playing around with my scary sharp this morning, so it shouldn't be long before I start dorking around with them.
One problem with the bench planes, you really need a decent bench to use them. That's probably the main reason I only use block planes. You can use them with one hand and don't have to have vices/dogs etc.

Jay

[Ellen Benkin]

I would start with a low angle block plane and then maybe a #5. LN is probably the best "new" plane maker but I've read great things about the Lee Valleys. Woodcraft sells LN so you can go there and maybe try one out. You can shop on Ebay but you're really taking a chance because you don't see the condition.

Regarding sharpening, there are lots of method out there from the $300 Tormek to the relatively inexpensive "sandpaper on glass". If you don't use the Tormek I would definitely get a Veritas sharpening gauge and system from Lee Valley so that you can set the angle correctly. A sharp blade with a flat back is essential, but don't get obsessive about sharpening. Remember the blade will dull with use and you will resharpen many times.

[JayStPeter]

I remain absolutely gobstruck at what some of y'all are willing to pay for tools.

If you don't yet own any planes, that tells me you are new to this and will need an entire shop full over the next few years if you stick with it. My 40-year-old operation is rather austere by most standards...if it don't see use it gets sold...but it amounts to many thousands in replacement value....and the heirloom tools impossible to ever replace.

Unless you have unlimited means, consider what other needed tools you could acquire with the money saved spending your TV time rehabbing a few old tools. None of this is rocket science or even takes any sophisticated technique at all once you get past learning to properly sharpen....and sharpening ain't the thousand-dollar mystery folks trying to sell you stuff make it out to be, either...but a coach would help.

Here's the reason I'm willing to pay for hand planes. I am a relative novice woodworker. I've only really been at it for 3 years (not including time when I didn't have a shop). After reading the BP forums, I concluded that I wouldn't need to sand if I learned to use a smoothing plane. Wow, that would be great. So, on advice of fellow ponders, off to ebay to buy a lightly rusted #4.
I didn't realize that being able to shave the hair off your arm doesn't really mean the iron is sharp. But, I did have a set of 10 steps to "tune" a plane. So, off I went. I gouged boards, plowed chunks out and chattered away. I kept coming back and reading the forums to figure out why things were so bad.
Well, I didn't even know really what it was like to correctly use a plane. I had never used a properly tuned plane. I had never even seen anyone use one or heard what it sounds like.
When I finally bought a LV LA block plane, I was immediately able to take a reasonable shaving. Even with no tuning or sharpening. I started using it to tweak parts and joinery. But, using planes instead of sanding was not even close. Over the nexe year or so, I learned to sharpen a little better and my block plane worked even better. I added a rabbeting block plane from LN to tune my joints.
It took seeing a seminar by Garrett Hack on handplane use to understand what could be done with handplanes. Unfortunately, I haven't really had a shop since, but hopefully I'll be able to apply that lesson.
The bottom line is that someone who has never used, or even seen a properly tuned handplane in use, is just asking for frustration buying an old rusty tool. I, for one, am more than willing to spend more money on a tool I can use than save some cash on what becomes frustrating junk in my shop. Once I learn more, I will probably be able to tune, use, and appreciate older inexpensive planes. Until then, "expensive" ones for me.

Jay

[Pam Niedermayer]

... Once I learn more, I will probably be able to tune, use, and appreciate older inexpensive planes. Until then, "expensive" ones for me.

Jay

Maybe not. I've grown to hate Stanleys, only have one left, a stupid 78.

Pam

[Tim Sproul]

I've grown to hate Stanleys


Me too. Though my experience with antique metal bodies is only 6 months or so. Even a well fettled Stanley has a hard time competing with a good woody, nevermind a Veritas or Lie Nielsen or Clifton or.....




And Jay.....don't worry about Smalser's opinion. He's entitled to it as we others are entitled to ours. Just ask him why doesn't go back to using flint as the cutter rather than steel. No sharpening involved with flint...just crack a brand new cutter off the block :p.

[David Tang]

Has anyone had any experience with the Anant planes from Highland Hardware? I am new to planes and I don't want to spend $300 on my first one. I'm thinking about buying the #5 and/or #7. Any thoughts or reviews?

I bought a couple of old Stanley 60-1/2 LA block planes and cleaned them up. I think I'll need to replace the blades with Hocks.

[Bob Smalser]

The bottom line is that someone who has never used, or even seen a properly tuned handplane in use, is just asking for frustration buying an old rusty tool. I, for one, am more than willing to spend more money on a tool I can use than save some cash on what becomes frustrating junk in my shop. Once I learn more, I will probably be able to tune, use, and appreciate older inexpensive planes. Until then, "expensive" ones for me.

Jay

Jay, you're more than welcome to mail me that #4...I'll tune it for you gratis and send it back with notes on what you are doing wrong. Those L/N's will go out of tune with time, too....and they'll require the same work, so there's no sense in postponing learning how.

I may even make a second, flint blade for you as Tim suggests. ;)

But I'd also like to see a pic of the wood you are having trouble planing...as that is much more than half the battle.

[Bob Smalser]

.....don't worry about Smalser's opinion. He's entitled to it as we others are entitled to ours. :p.

So true Tim....but as I recall you been doing this as a hobbyist for a couple-three years....and from your excellent posts, you are an amazingly-quick study...but even with other occupations, I been doing this almost every day for 40 or so.

But you are correct in that I have long since forgotten what it's like starting from a blank page...that's why I began posting all those short tutorials a year or so ago. They are chapters in a book I'm preparing to pass on to my sons and their children, and y'all's internet comments are very helpful in aiding the revisions needed for better clarity. They are also kinda a diary.

Ain't like I'm not "walking the walk", is it?





Tutorials and Articles Posted on the Woodenboat Forums


Tutorials

Making Spar Planes Inexpensively

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010004

A Simple Pair of Seven-foot Oars

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009692

A Simple 3-Board Door

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009794&p=

Linder Rigging Knife

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002504&p=

Wiring Harnesses for Small Boats and Trailers

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009784&p=

An 8-Siding Gage

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009685


Sharpening Handsaws

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009165&p=


Maintaining Traditional Oil Skins and Tin Cloth

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001998

Have a Trashed Chain Saw?

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=002115

Chopping Mortises, a Quick Tutorial

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008649

Rehabbing Old Tools

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=008528&p=

Rehabbing Old Planes

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008638

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1886&highlight=rehabbing

Rehabbing Old Chisels

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1873&highlight=rehabbing

More Chisels

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=010117

Spoke Shave Tune Up

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=008974&p=

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2093

http://www.woodworking.org/Exchange/Forum2/HTML/012933.html

The Drawknife

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009003

Restoring Varnished Hardwood

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009010&p=


Files, Filing, Filling and Finishing…..Metal

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009048&p=

http://gunshop.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=011901

An Inexpensive 50-Degree Smoothing Plane

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009153

http://www.woodworking.org/Exchange/Forum2/HTML/013442.html

Tuning Squares and Levels

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=002085&p=

Tuning Card Scrapers

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009193

Rehabbing Woodies

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?
ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009194

Traditional Construction….Fast!

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=003158




Articles

Ring Count

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=009431&p

Shop-Made Joiner Tools

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=002041


Snow Today At Sprague Pond

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=001466


Falling a Big Fir

http://www.messing-about.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1810&highlight=falling+fir

Milling Ear’s Fir

http://www.baileys-online.com/earlsFir.htm

http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=shop&file=articles_291.shtml

Cruiser Was a Logger’s Dog

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=012147&p=

Big Madrone

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=002338

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009291

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009306

“Whew!” (Site-Milled Lumber)

http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=015404

Timber Frame

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=011950&p=




As the lads have made good progress in the last year, the next one is gonna be on something a bit more complicated:

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5305809/67802967.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5305809/67802927.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5305809/67802912.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5305809/67802784.jpg

[Dave Anderson NH]

A lot of advice and a large number of different viewpoints are expressed here on this forum and in this thread. But often there is an underlying current of frustration and an implied question of who is right and what is right or wrong. That is both the benefit and the curse of forums. Who is right and who is wrong, or is there a right or wrong? While everyone has different needs, levels of experience, and opinions on handplanes, there is one thing that separates most of us from our peers of two or three generations ago. The vast majority of new woodworkers and wannabees have limited access to live in the flesh role models to help them over the rough areas and up the steep slope of the learning curve. There are few shop programs left in the schools, most ( but not all) of the TV shows on woodworking are power tool oriented, almost no apprenticeships are available, and worst of all- there are few locals with the necessary skills who can teach us. Sharpening, tuning, and fettling of all types of hand tools is a gateway skill. It is your passport or entry fee and you must become proficient before you can expect to learn the techniques of how to actually use the tools. Two generations ago someone starting out would have spent a couple of days or more under the direction of a journeyman developing these skills until they became second nature. Only after they had become minimally proficient would they have been allowed to even look at a piece of wood.

Today we try to substitute internet forums, books, videos, and the occasional short seminar for what used to be a one on one learning experience. This works after a fashion, but is not really very efficient or effective and lacks the constant immediate feedback of the old methods. Is there an answer?

While some of you are geographically isolated, most live within an hour or two drive of some woodworking school, community college with a woodworking course, woodworking club, shop offering classes, or someone with a good level of experience. How strong is your desire to learn and your committment to the hobby? Make an effort to research your opportunities in the area, you might have to drive a bit and spend a few days doing research, but find yourself a mentor. There is no substitute for face to face learning with its immediate feedback, ability to get answers on the fly, constantly changing visual views of what is happening, and even moral support. You can accomplish more in one day with live instruction than you can with a week of any other method of learning. It's not majic, you've all seen this in many other areas of your lives. Make the effort, it will lower frustration, increase greatly your speed of learning, and save you from many misteps. Most of all live interaction is FUN.

[Bob Smalser]

Sorry to be such a squeeky wheel on overspending, Dave....but for every poster out there recommending something fancy, there's two to a dozen newbie lurkers on tight budgets who are becoming terribly discouraged...

...for some reason I get their emails.

[Aaron Kline]

I started out woodworking with power tools, but they majorly angered me. The quality was spotty, warranties, noise, dust and the high expense. One day I got rid of the things and went on ebay and discovered the most wonderful tools stanley ever made(just in my opinion:D ), transitionals. Most often the only problem is the top part of the horn is broken off, but Bob explained that part in his tutorial. The sole just glides over what you're working with and they can be set for just as fine shavings as ever. Plus, they support the iron all the way, much like the Bedrock series, but a lot cheaper. Plus, if you don't like the plain old ugly beech used, you can use curly maple or some super exotic wood like that and make them really stand out. Plus they're cheap, I got the equivalent of a #8 jointer for $26, and all it needed was some sharpening. But the best advice is, go with YOUR instincts. The best tool is the one you like the most.

[Pam Niedermayer]

... an implied question of who is right and what is right or wrong. That is both the benefit and the curse of forums. Who is right and who is wrong, or is there a right or wrong?...[/color]

Maybe there is such an implied question, that it's implied we must choose sides; but I have to say that is not my position. Nor is it likely that most of the people here hold such positions. Rather, most information is presented as alternatives, which is not proselytizing at all. Most of us recognize that there are multiple ways to achieve a goal; so the reader can choose the approach that suits him/her best.

I certainly agree with you about training, attend classes every chance I get.

Pam

[Herb Blair]

Sorry to be such a squeeky wheel on overspending, Dave....but for every poster out there recommending something fancy, there's two to a dozen newbie lurkers on tight budgets who are becoming terribly discouraged...

...for some reason I get their emails.

Bob,
I agree with your viewpoint. I live in the Dallas area and see everyday people overspending on their lifestile, be it tools, cars, homes, or toys. You're not "in" if you don't have a Mercedes, Lexus, and a Hummer in your driveway. Same way for tools. I've seen guys go out and spend several thousand dollars buy only the best, and haven't built anything with those expense tools yet. They are "status collectors" not woodworkers.
I'm also a ham radio operator "K5AT" and I see the same thing in Ham Radio. Lot's of equipment, but never made a contact.

BTW Bob, I enjoyed your articles. Very informative. Thanks.

[Lloyd Robins]

Herb, the nice title is tool collectors. Status collectors have to show off their possesions. Most of us only talk about them on line and then only occasionally. I don't see that there is anything wrong with a love of wonderful tools (old or new.) I am not certain that the amount of use matters. I try to use my planes as much as I can. (Mostly Knight woodies with a couple of small LN's - sorry no Stanley's yet.) I also don't see that there is anything wrong with the love of a good buy and restoring something to working status. It takes talent, patience, and training to do this. I really enjoy Bob's articles, and I really enjoy hearing of people who use their LN or infills. As to overspending most of us nonprofessionals could buy furniture for less that our tools, classes, and books. Anyway, I am trying to find a class this summer to fill in the many gaps in my knowledge. That way my wife might feel that I am more of tool "user" than just a tool "buyer." (She thinks that Norm's show is a major conspiracy to fill every gargage with unused tools.)

Anyway, my feeling is that we have a shared enjoyment of a hobby in all its different variations. My variation might not agree with yours, but does that matter? We still have the shared interest. Just some rambling thoughts. Work safely. :)

[JayStPeter]

A lot of advice and a large number of different viewpoints are expressed here on this forum and in this thread. But often there is an underlying current of frustration and an implied question of who is right and what is right or wrong.

I hope you don't mistake my posts for calling Bob wrong. I've just tried both his suggestion and that of the overspenders.


Jay, you're more than welcome to mail me that #4...I'll tune it for you gratis and send it back with notes on what you are doing wrong. Those L/N's will go out of tune with time, too....and they'll require the same work, so there's no sense in postponing learning how.

I may even make a second, flint blade for you as Tim suggests. ;)

But I'd also like to see a pic of the wood you are having trouble planing...as that is much more than half the battle.

Bob,

I appreciate the offer. I agree with your sentiments that I need to learn how. I have a suspicion that the problem resides in my sole lapping technique.
I also have the #6 Bailey plane that does work OK after I followed the "10 steps". Because of its large size, I think it wound up flatter. But, I'm still not a fan of adjusting the blade. Someday, I may revisit the #4, but chances are I'll replace it with something from LV. First, I'll play with the #5 BedRock, I'll see if I like that adjuster. If so, I might try to get some more BedRocks.
Believe it or not, I have a pretty open mind about it. I watched Garrett Hack plane down a board with a cheapo new Stanley plane and do a great job. Watching him just flick around the blade and adjuster and get it right by feel was impressive.
As for the wood, so far all I've been doing with the #4 and 6 is playing. I was using both some nice straight grained Cherry, and some nasty Ash. The #6 was able to smooth out the board with far less tear-out than my electron burning planer. Did I mention I still don't like the blade adjustment mechanism?
I definitely have much left to learn. You'll be happy to know that I've been trying to sharpen my chisels without any jigs. Maybe someday I'll be saying "ahhhh, you don't need no stinking jigs" :D

QUOTE=Bob Smalser]Sorry to be such a squeeky wheel on overspending, Dave....but for every poster out there recommending something fancy, there's two to a dozen newbie lurkers on tight budgets who are becoming terribly discouraged...

...for some reason I get their emails.[/QUOTE]

I'll agree with you here. It happens on the power tool side also. For some reason, I don't get their emails :D :D

BTW, nice job on the saw there. How much for one of those? ;) :D Seriously, that's something I have thought about making.

Thanks,

Jay

[Gary Bingham]

I also have the #6 Bailey plane that does work OK after I followed the "10 steps". Because of its large size, I think it wound up flatter. But, I'm still not a fan of adjusting the blade. Someday, I may revisit the #4, but chances are I'll replace it with something from LV. First, I'll play with the #5 BedRock, I'll see if I like that adjuster. If so, I might try to get some more BedRocks.

Just curious, but what don't you like about the blade adjuster on your #6 bailey? As far as I know it's the same as the blade adjustment on the bedrocks, both have knobs. Or are you talking about the frog adjustment?

[Dave Anderson NH]

To Pam, Bob, Jay, et al


The whole point of my post was to highlight the idea that your choice of tool is far less important than gaining proficiency in using it. Everyone who has been working with wood for a while has developed preferences and they often are continents apart in style, technique, and viewpoint. Pam likes Japanese chisels and saws, Bob uses mostly preowned Western tools, I use a mix of new and old Western tools, and others use only new stuff. None of these choices is any more or less valid than the other, it's strictly a matter of preference. As for hand planes, here the variety of choices gets even wider and more unclear since the selections are far wider.

To someone starting out the number of choices can be bewildering and I wanted to make the point that more important than choice is the ability to learn how to use the particular tool. This is most quickly and easily accomplished with live instruction. I was not trying to disparage anyones ideas or comments and apologize if it sounded like that. Bob makes a very valid point that not everyone has an unlimited budget, I know I didn't when I started out. Used tools or a very slow multi-year accumulation of a set are often the only choices for someone of modest income raising a family.

As for disagreements, as long as it is done in a polite and non-confrontational manner without name calling, it is allowed. To go further, disagreement that sheds light and takes the form of a debate, can be very useful in providing information. We just have to be on guard that once started, it remains a debate rather than becoming a flame war.

[James Carmichael]

Herb, the nice title is tool collectors. Status collectors have to show off their possesions. Most of us only talk about them on line and then only occasionally.


LOL Lloyd,

A sure way to chase off my brie and wine ("whine"?) neighbors or co-workers is to start showing/talking about my old WW tools. The only status they get me is that of neighborhood redneck:-)

[Tim Sproul]

Ain't like I'm not "walking the walk", is it?
Nope. I hope such a thought was never implied in any of my posts. I find your stuff very interesting and very informative.

Just a difference in thoughts and worlds, perhaps. You like to think of your "free time" as exactly that. Free. No other responsibilities or such. I think of it this way....I want to work wood. I want to spend time with my 4 and 6 yr old boys. I want to spend time with my wife. I'd love to make my own tools. Priorities:

1. Family.
2. work wood.
3. make tools.

After 24 hours in the day, there is no time for #3.

Perhaps I've implied that antique tools don't perform well ENOUGH. They do. This should be self-evident since there is still much furniture from time of those tools. As well...we SHOULD all know it is the craftsman that determines the quality of work. I'm sure we could throw you a box of rusty old tools and give me a chest filled with every high-end new tool. Give us each a pile of sticks and specs on a piece of furniture to build. You'd build it better and faster than me. I'm quite sure. Like I said, the craftsman is the SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT tool.

40+ years of experience....eh. Perhaps I'd win if we had to buck 200# slabs around ;).

[Tom LaRussa]

I am not certain that the amount of use matters. I try to use my planes as much as I can.
Hi Lloyd,

I think I may be able to help here.

The problem that some woodworkers have with collectors is not with folks like yourself, i.e., woodworkers who also collect.

The problem is with a group of folks who are perceived as collecting tools solely for the sake of putting them in a display case. I say "perceived" because I'm not actually sure that such people exist, at least in an appreciable numbers -- although I suspect they do.

What, you may ask, is wrong with that?

Nothing. In and of itself. The problem is that it drives up prices to the point where quite a few of us have trouble acquiring tools that would help us do better work.

For example, I could really use a Stanley #112 scraper plane, but I just can't see spending well over $100 for a 50-year old hunk of iron, just because somebody has decided that it's "collectible". See what I mean?

Cheers,

Tom

Note: All of the above is JMHO; your mileage may vary. Always ware ANSI approved saftey glasses when using tools, eating, drinking, sleeping, or playing golf.

[Chris Padilla]

Yikes, this has blossomed into something unexpected...at least to my inexperienced eye but I can't say that I'm shocked at all. Great thread, Folks...appreciate all the thoughts.

Okay, so after all this, I got a couple of freebies from a buddy and tools don't get much better than free (some times! ;) ).

I do plan to make/buy a nice workbench so I can really start playing around with planing and handcutting various joints.

I have an invitation from Mr. Smalser that I intend to use...I also have one from another ww'ing buddy, Manny Hernandez, and I'm sure Mr. Sproul will take me up...even if he has only 6 months on it...it is more than I have! Besides, he wants a ride on some of the electron burners I recently acquired...I *know* he does! :D

There are some good schools around here, too, than I will try like crazy to attend but it does all come down to Time, as Tim so eloquently pointed out: I do have a 2.5-year old little girl who, fortunately, likes to spend time out in the garage with Daddy. I also own a home ('nuff said there) and the wife does need paying attention to or they get sour like milk ignored for too long! I also hope, by the end of this year, to have my shop, er, garage all done and ready to be used again.

[Bob Smalser]

...Walking the Walk...
40+ years of experience....eh. Perhaps I'd win if we had to buck 200# slabs around ;).

I enjoy your well-put arguments, Tim, and am not trying to discourage you.

I certainly overstate some of mine, but my point is that your arguments will always carry more weight if we can see your base of knowledge rather than just hear about it.

And I may be an old greybeard, but remember I also run those tree farms and large manual sawmill as part of my living. ;) You'll find you get slower with age...but not necessarily weaker.




What, you may ask, is wrong with that?

Absolutely nothing.

The impact of collectors on the trade is a mixed bag, like most everything else, IMO.

The good news is that those old tools have value, and wind up at flea markets instead of the dump. Yeah, the going price of some rare planes is ridiculous...but they were rare planes to begin with because they had limited usefulness.

The bad news is that there are a number of very influential collectors out there who appear to have done just enuf woodworking to "talk the talk", and provide a whole bunch of misleading and sometimes harmful information to novices.

I don't know Patrick Leach of "Blood and Gore", but he condemns a number of tools that make me wonder about him...two brief examples of many:

1) Light, handy, warm-to-the-touch transitionals and other woodies have been loved by shipwrights for generations. So would Patrick if he ever had to plane down a beam or carlin working from beneath. Woodies difficult to adjust? Nonsense....all planes adjust downward easily with a light tap of a brass hammer....and all planes are sufficiently troublesome to adjust upwards that pro tradesmen always owned a second smoother or rabbet for when they needed both coarse and fine settings.

2) Combo planes like the 45, 50 and 55 require the right stock...clear and straight and crisp...by their design. That was well-known two generations ago and Stanley wouldn't have sold a couple gazillions of them if they were useless. My Granddad knew better than to try to make molding out of crotch wood and pin knots or furry elm or popple....didn't try....and would have had a good laugh over somebody condemning the tool because of it.

Even Garrett Hack, who does make fine furniture, omits entirely ship and boatwright specialty planes from his book....yet includes carriagemaker planes. Uncle Paul woulda loved the book but had a good laugh over that. He was a commercial boatbuilder whose Dad had been an old-time carriage maker. Carriage making was long dead by 1930 when Paul abandoned rubbing out lacquered auto bodies with fartblocks in his Dad's carriage shop to set up his own boat shop beginning with his Dad's cast-off tools.

But there's great news there for novices on tight budgets....because of the poormouthing, those transitionals and woodies can be had for little more than the price of firewood, and are so simple for even a novice woodworker to resole and tune that they are an excellent choice for the dozen or so planes needed to tackle any task that arises.

Personally, I used Uncle Paul's and Uncle Howard's (homebuilder/finish carpenter) hand-me-down and cast-off woodies and transitionals for over 3 decades before I decided to spring for Ebay prewar Stanley's to replace them...I eventually tired of redoing soles and I've sons whose training deserves its start with woodies....just like mine did.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/42250343.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594266/42250332.jpg

[Roger Nixon]

Yikes, this has blossomed into something unexpected...at least to my inexperienced eye but I can't say that I'm shocked at all. Great thread, Folks...appreciate all the thoughts.


For people who have followed handtool forums for a few years, this isn't unexpected at all :) . Everyone has their favorite tools and methods and this is what they recommend. It is easy to think "This works for me and it should work for everyone else" but the fact is: you will decide what tools you enjoy using and whatever your choice is, those tools will work for you. You may change your opinion a few times as you gain experience but you'll enjoy figuring out what you like and don't like.

[James Carmichael]

Yikes, this has blossomed into something unexpected...at least to my inexperienced eye but I can't say that I'm shocked at all. Great thread, Folks...appreciate all the thoughts.

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LOL, check out the chisel and scraper threads, too, Chris. Now if you really want to get the Neander tribes aroused, try a post titled "What's the best sharpening technique" or "Western or Japanese handsaws?".

[Michael Perata]

Yikes, this has blossomed into something unexpected...

Fat chance me giving you anything else... :o