Rail & Stile Fit

[Kevin Godshall]

I just bought a new matched rail and stile set for my shaper. (MCLS) (Separate cutters for each piece). I was hoping for a "fits like a glove" snug fit, but there is quite a bit of gap around both the roundover profile and the tongue. I can move the the pieces about 1/32" or better up and down. Is this normal? Shouldn't it be like my dadoes that basically hold themselves together?

If this is normal, how do I clamp my doors together so as to make sure that the stile remains at 90 degrees to the stile and doesn't end up twisted up or down?

[glenn bradley]

- Hold the bits up to each other, they should fit like a glove. If not, call MLCS.
- Check your depth to be sure the tongue is seating (near) completely into the groove but not bottoming out.
- How are you assuring that your rail passes the cutter at a solid 90* during the cope cut? This is often a problem.

[Kevin Godshall]

If I put the "roundover" of the one bit "inside" the "cove" of it's mate, there is ~ 1/16th of gap. The 1/4" groove cutter has all kinds of room in it's mate's "slot".

I use a sled against both an infeed and outfeed fence to maintain the 90 degrees.

Guess I will call MLCS and see what goes.

[Kevin Godshall]

OK MLCS says gotta add shims. Unfortunately, they didn't include any in set. Guess I'm tossing out 8 rails and making new ones.

[John Gregory]

Maybe I am confused, but I thought that a "matched set" had already been matched by the supplier, and the user did not have to add shims. I have bought many times from MLCS. Their response disappoints me.

[Myk Rian]

Call MLCS again and TELL them that if the cutters don't fit together exactly, then they are not a matched set. TELL them you want a new set, or people at the Creek will be informed of the bad news.

[Dave Wagner]

I bought a Freud rail, style, raised panel "set" (3 separate cutters) and the sections fit together perfectly, but not snug, no gaps, but no force required to put together. If you bump them, they will separate, but I think once you get some glue in the joints, it tightens up nicely. I figured that the way they are supposed to fit.

[Steve Clardy]

Sometimes even expensive bits [whiteside] need to be shimmed to get a good fit.

Just have them send the shim pack.

[Tom Hintz]

I've had to shim lots of rail and stile sets over the years, often just to get the fit that I like. I also cut test pieces if for no other reason than to be sure I haven't botched something in the setup. I have killed too much wood in the past by not checking.

[William M Johnson]

I have the Freud set and had a terrible time trying to get them to fit. :mad: Returned the first set, numerous conversations with tech support at Freud (very good). Finally we decided that we needed more shims than what they had sent with the set.

They sent me some more and the end result is acceptable but I wasted a lot of wood "assuming" that they were "matched"

[Kevin Godshall]

I used the online chat to "diagnose" my problem. The first response was: Did you read the online "How To" section? I said yes, but it was only for set up of the bits. The response: No, there is a troubleshooting guide. I looked again and there was ANOTHER pdf to look at. Reading this one, it mentioned that shims may need to be added to make a snug fit.

I asked the CSR 2 things: 1) Why did the set up tell me to make the tongue cuts first? (The ones that would ultimately need to be shimmed). 2) Why wasn't a shim set included with my bits ($200 bucks should've been a COMPLETE set).

Only response I got was: Call toll free number, can't order online, and get a shim set for $4 postage paid.

Lots of hassle IMO for spending big bucks for a matched set that I have buy add'l shims to get matched. Almost like me selling a bookcase and selling shims separately to the customer in case it doesn't sit level or it wobbles...........

[glenn bradley]

I have bought many times from MLCS. Their response disappoints me.

They disappointed me for the last time a long time ago. That is why I asked for a comparison on the bits first thing; experience. I know others here use them and are satisfied but, I gave up on them.

[glenn bradley]

I looked again and there was ANOTHER pdf to look at. Reading this one, it mentioned that shims may need to be added to make a snug fit.

In your defense as to your expectations, mine would be the same when their instructions clearly state "Matched Rail and Stile: Two separate bits make the required two cuts. No re-assembly needed."

[Kevin Godshall]

In your defense as to your expectations, mine would be the same when their instructions clearly state "Matched Rail and Stile: Two separate bits make the required two cuts. No re-assembly needed."

Thank you. I don't feel like a total stooge.

I guess in all my frustrations, I'm wondering why shims aren't even listed on their site anywhere. There are bushings and spacers, but no shims. As far out as the 2 "matched" bits are, there should have been a big blinking button for "ORDER YOUR SHIMS HERE".

Guess I will have to write an email to Customer Relations at MLCS. This is not satisfactory to me at all.

[jack duren]

Seems odd that they didnt fit from the factory. Usually you dont need to adjust them on your "new" matched set. I rarely have to adjust them after the sharpener gets them but I dont use MLCS. Maybe the out of the box fit is based on the price:confused:....

[Peter Quinn]

Seems odd that they didnt fit from the factory. Usually you dont need to adjust them on your "new" matched set. I rarely have to adjust them after the sharpener gets them but I dont use MLCS. Maybe the out of the box fit is based on the price:confused:....

My experience has been similar. Amana "matched sets" for the shaper are matched when new, and I have not had to shim them until sharpening or after heavy use. And then it is but a few thousands. I have had the same experience with Freeborn, Infinity and Freud sets. No shims required when new.

Kevin, you should probably own a set of shims for the shaper as they will be necessary eventually, though I might consider buying them from some one more capable of doing precise work than MLCS? Shims are fairly universal and should be available from any decent tooling vendor.

[Frederick Rowe]

I bought a Bosch set of rail and stile router bits and after a test fit, found them too tight. I disassembled one of the cutters and found that there were shims already installed. It was simply a matter of removing one to bring the set into adjustment. Check if there are any shims already installed on the coping bit.

[Dave Lehnert]

I purchased a set from Harbor Freight for $20 and they fit perfect right out of the box.

[David Venditto]

Most matched Rail / Stile sets should fit together within about .010" or less. Take a digital caliper and measure the tongue thickness, then the groove width. What do you get? Should be .250" +/- .005". This space is useful for the application of glue. Of course some people prefer a very tight fit while others less so. From your description it sounds like the cutters may have been ground incorrectly.

David Venditto
Infinity Cutting Tools

[Nathan Callender]

I'd also chip in and say that they should be better matched than that if coming from MLCS as a new matched set. I bought 2 rail/stile router bit sets from woodline and they managed to get them matched. :-) It sounds like a free set of shims and a $50 coupon for your time/hassle is in order.

[Jim Crockett]

Call MLCS and talk to them directly vs. online - I suspect you will get better results. Who knows who they have manning the 'help desk' on a holiday weekend - probably the low man on the totem pole and he may not be too happy about it. That's no excuse but my guess is you will have much better luck talking to someone on Tuesday. I have always had excellent customer service from MLCS, to the extent that they sent me a replacement bit after I broke one routing hickory, even after I directly told them that it was my fault, that I was taking too deep a cut in this hard wood. They have always been quick to respond to questions, even stupid ones, with good, helpful answers.

I agree with the others that a "matched" set shouldn't need to be shimmed. Otherwise, what does "matched" mean?????

Good luck.

JimC

[Bill Arnold]

Call MLCS and talk to them directly vs. online - I suspect you will get better results. ...
I've had good results communicating with MLCS either way. I have two different matched R/S sets from them and have had no issues with them. Most of the router bits I own are from MLCS. I always check them first for anything I want to order.

Having said that, I do take advantage of deals from other vendors such as the recent one from Woodcraft. :)

[Cody Colston]

I've never used MLCS bits but the Whitesides matched rail & stile set that I have don't fit snugly enough IMHO. There's no gap but they come apart with no effort at all. I'd like the fit to close enough that they don't separate just bumping them during assembly. I may have to try shimming.

And to second someone else here, test cuts and dry fits will save a lot of wood and even more frustration. :)

[Kevin Godshall]

Make some shims here at home. Got the tongue to fit snug, not tight but a good fit. This is what I'm left with on the round over profile and it's mate.

Sorry pic is a bit out of focus, but hope you can see the gap. Gonna send pic to MLCS and see what response I get.

[Brad Westcott]

I have not had any problem with my Freud matched sets. I have been wondering when I am going to have to sharpen them.

They may have to run a partner add with the Energizer bunny!

[Peter Quinn]

That gap is unacceptable. You will be asking a lot of the glue to fill that void and the corners will be unsightly in stain grade work. You can play with where you place the shims in the stack a bit and possible tighten that fit a bit, though this is not usually necessary with a well matched set.

I usually run the stick and shim the back side of the cope to match (thicken the tongue to match the groove), but it almost seems as if you need a .015" or so shim between the stick molding cutter and the slotter, then to make some minor height adjustments. I assume your cope stack is set using a rub collar between the two cutters to set the fence flush? It almost looks like your cope cutters are cutting a bit deep? Is the end of the tongue burning on the rub collar or being forced through in any way?

I actually prefer NOT to let the tongue bottom out in the groove, but stay back .015" or so to leave a little room for glue and expansion. I don't like to let the tongue bottom out in any event.

[Kevin Godshall]

There isn't a rub collar with the set, but a recessed cutter that supposedly cuts the tongue to the "proper" length. The fence determines how much of the material engages the cutter(s).

If I move the fence, the opposing cut gets reduced the same and the result still comes out as shown in the picture.

I'm starting to think (realize) I need to work out a way to return this set, get my money back and go shopping somewhere else.

Thanks to everyone for their input and suggestions. If nothing else, it's been an educating experience.

[Kevin Godshall]

Here is a better picture of what I'm left with and an image of what the cutter set looks like from the site, showing no rub collar but the recessed cutter for the tongue length.

I guess I "could" shim the other cutter, moving the profile up higher, but also increasing the groove, then having to go back and re-shim the tongue, and then test fit again, and then shim.......... grrrrrrrrrrrrr.

It would have been faster to try to hand cut the whole thing with a pocket knife.

[Neal Clayton]

Seems odd that they didnt fit from the factory. Usually you dont need to adjust them on your "new" matched set. I rarely have to adjust them after the sharpener gets them but I dont use MLCS. Maybe the out of the box fit is based on the price:confused:....

me neither. i haven't been doing this long enough to have used alot of sets, i'm on my third of the profiles i use most often now, and have never had anything less than a flawless fit out of the box.

i use freud, fwiw.