Need sharpening advice.

[Gregg Feldstone]

I use the Veritas MK II honing guide and King Japanese waterstones (1000/6000 combo & 1200/8000 combo).
The first blade I sharpened was a cheap recent model Stanley
plane iron, and I quickly got a razor-sharp (missing hair to prove it) edge with a micro-bevel. Next I used it on my Sorby bench chisels and got similar results.
I recently started purchasing quality planes including a Clifton #3, LN #62 & LN spokeshave. I also have a Krenov smoother with a pre-sharpened Hock iron which is hollow ground and the sharpest steel I own. I could not get the Clifton iron razor-sharp. The LN #62 iron is pre-A2 steel and I got it just barely razor-sharp but not even as good as the cheap Stanley iron. The spokeshave came new so I just slightly lapped it so far and it is razor sharp. I would consider other sharpening methods. I don't care about speed, but if a power sharpening system really got me better results I would go for it. I have an 8" (slow-speed) bench grinder with white stones I use for the turning tools, but feel it's not precise enough to trust on my other steel and I don't know if a hollow grind is preferable or not. I called Veritas about this and they said the different alloys may have something to do with my varied results. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks!!

[Bob Barkto]

The hardness and wear resistance of the steel could be the issue.
It takes considerably more time to remove enough steel to get to a sharp edge compared to the softer Stanley steel.

The Clifton and LN blades are comparable to the Hock in hardness and wear resistance. The others are soft in comparison and not very wear resistant.

The Hock, being hollow ground, presents less steel to the stone and will sharpen up faster.

Spend more time on the 1200 and 6000 stones and see what transpires.
It can take quite a while.

You can hollow grind the Clifton and LN without harming performance or edge retention. Just don't overheat the steel.
If you haven't ground carbon steel before practice on an old blade.

Briefly:
Never let the steel get too hot to touch and don't grind all the way out to the edge.
Keep the wheels well dressed.
Use a light touch and keep the steel moving across the wheel. Any hesitation can result in blueing the blade. When that happens it's lost it's hardness.

[Sam Takeuchi]

You have to continue with lower grit stone until you get some bur along the edge. That removes worn edge. And then proceed to higher grit stone. You can remove bur before moving to higher grit if you prefer, or do it altogether at the end.

And yes, harder steel takes little longer to work it out than soft steel, like the ones come with new Stanley.

By the way, new blades need to be honed no matter which brand of blade.

[Robert Rozaieski]

As Sam describes, you have to pay attention to your tools and listen to what they are telling you. If you don't feel a consistent burr along the face (flat) side of the tool, you haven't spent enough time on your first stone. If you start with the 1000, then keep using the 1000 until you feel a consistent wire edge all along the face edge. Only once you feel that wire consistently along the entire edge should you move on to the finer stones.

Once you've worked your way up to your finishing stone, chase the burr back and fourth; meaning, hone the bevel about 2 dozen times, then hone the face a couple dozen times, then the bevel, then the face, then the bevel, then the face. Continue alternately flipping the tool and feel for the wire edge every time you hone the bevel. Once you can no longer feel the wire edge (i.e. you've honed it off) then you are done, or if you strop, do that to finish.

Even though all of your tools may be O1 steel, they will still be different hardnesses depending on how they were heat treated. Therefore, you cannot expect that every tool will require the same amount of work. Hollow grinding helps but you still need to pay attention to your tools. If one tool doesn't get as sharp in the same amount of work, it just means it needs a little more work. All of your tools should be able to get equally sharp, regardless of type of steel or tempering. However, how long it takes to get them to that level of sharpness and how long they maintain that sharpness will differ based on the properties of the steel in the tool.

Don't assume that every tool will get equally sharp with "X" number of strokes on each stone, even of they are the same kind of steel. A lot of factors will make a difference, such as hardness of the steel, how dull the edge was, how wide the tool is, how wide the bevel is (was it just hollow ground or is this the third or fourth honing since it was ground), etc.

Listen to your tools and feel for the wire edge. The tool will tell you when it's ready to move on to the next stone.

[Roger Benton]

Good advice here, the different alloys are most likely the culprit. You're getting good results on most items so your methods are working.

You may want to consider a 4000 or 5000 grit stone to better bridge the gap between your 1200 and 8000 when dealing with those harder alloys.

I use the mkII and king stones-1000, 5000 and 8000- as well.
I can get way with going from the 1000 straight to the 8000 with some things like stanley blades, but with harder, higher quality irons and chisels I find the 5000 stone to be a necessary and perfect midpoint.

[Mark Roderick]

Just a thought - are you flattening your waterstones before each use?

[Jim Koepke]

I am a bit of an odd ball or contrarian on sharpening.

No hollow grinds.
No micro bevels.
My stones do not get flattened after each use, or very often for that matter.
Often, no burr is raised on my blades when they are being sharpened.
The "ruler trick" has not been used on my blades.
The jury is still forming an opinion on cambering plane blades.

Is this because none of these methods work? Heck no, all of those methods work and some make life easier for many folks.

What is important in all methods of sharpening is the back of the blade be flat, at least where it makes a line with the front of the bevel. This is why some use the "ruler trick." It allows for a "micro bevel" on the back side of the blade instead of polishing a larger area.

A hollow grind makes sharpening a blade a lot less work since only the edges of the hollow ground area touch the stone. For sharpening by hand, it also has a more positive feel on the stone. I have nothing against hollow grinds. It is just that there is not currently a grinder set up in my shop.

A burr is raised primarily on the pulling stroke while sharpening a blade. With scary sharp, much of the work is done on the pull stroke as the sandpaper can be torn on the push stroke if it is not adhered strongly to the surface. It can also bubble up in front of the bevel on a push stroke. This can do more to destroy an edge than it will to sharpen the edge.

Micro bevels work fine. It is a way to add a little wear resistance to an edge and then remove a little less metal when honing.

So, what are my blade sharpening tips?

Make sure the back of the blade near the edge is polished. If you can see scratches, then it will not be sharp. Those little scratches are like little nicks in the edge of the blade.

Some will condemn any mention of shaving hair with a blade to test its sharpness. Some will suggest checking the edge on a finger nail. It is easy to catch a little nail with a blade that will not shave hair. This is sharp enough for some. For paring, my preference is for a sharper blade.

Since you mentioned hair removal as a standard of sharpness, here is my hair removal scale:

1) Beginning sharp Will not slide on finger nail, but does not shave hair. This is probably sharp enough for a lot of things.

2) Cuts a few hairs, but the pull on hairs being cut can be felt. Sharper and good for a lot of work. The hair pulling being felt is from very small nicks in the edge.

3) Cuts most of the hair in its path, but still a little feel of pulling. This is getting pretty sharp and is good to go for most work.

4) When first pushed over the hair on your arm, nothing is felt and it feels like it is rolling over the hair. On further inspection, it looks like a caterpillar has taken up residence on your blade and there is a clear patch on your arm. This is pretty darn sharp. After this, if you have a higher grit stone, then maybe a better mirror on the bevel or back can be achieved. Maybe a little stropping. For me, it is get that edge to the bench and do some work.

5) Sharp enough that the hair sees it coming and falls over in surrender before being touched by the blade. In my dreams only.

One thing needed for sharpening is a strong light source. Look at the edge straight on. With the edge horizontal, change the angle back and forth. If you see a glint of light on the edge, it is not sharp.

It took me years to get the experience from sort of sharp to what my target for sharpness is today. Others have had the same experience. If you stay with it, a year from today, you will have a different feel for what is sharp and much sharper tools.

One of the other factors is to know when the blade is getting dull. As a blade is used, it gets duller. It will take a lot less work to sharpen a blade that is just beginning to dull than one that has been allowed to get real dull. With a plane, this can often be seen in a blade making ribbons instead of even shavings. An extremely sharp blade can take very thin shavings. This is also dependent on a plane body being set up well. When the quality of shaving starts to drop or the thinest shaving gets thicker, it is time to start thinking about sharpening.

jim

[Mike Holbrook]

I feel your pain,

I have a Tormek wet grinding wheel and I have a hard time working plane blades on it. I also have a large assortment of axes, mower blades and other landscaping tools I use to maintain a 12 acre dog park. I finally bought a a belt sander/grinder that takes 1&2"x 42" belts. I ordered a bunch of belts from which have not arrived yet, but when they do....

Many of the custom knife makers use belt sanders to shape and sharpen very tough steels. Belt sanders tend to operate cooler than regular grinders but can remove tough steel quickly. There is quite an assortment of belt types available that make this devise very versatile. I even ordered two leather belts and two different buffing compounds for polishing. You can get a smaller 1" x 30" belt sander for about $35, get serious with the $400 Grizzly 2", knife making model or even spend $1-2000 or more for production gear. I went with something in the middle, a $200 machine from Grainger's that uses 1 or 2' belts ,has a disc sander and good adjustability for my specific needs.

Good grinding,

Mitch

[Gregg Feldstone]

Two questions:

1 When using the Mark II Honing guide, should I go through all grits on the primary bevel than all grits on the micro bevel? Does the primary bevel require the ultra fine Polishing grits, ie 6000+?

2. If I were to use a 1" or 2" belt sander for sharpening, what is a good one that is intended soley for sharpening and has good rests with stops set at specific angles? I don't need another disc sander as I have a good 6" x48" belt/ 10" disc combo unit. I would think a belt sander used for sharpening would have to run very smoothly and precisely to ensure an unspoiled edge. Any suggestions?

[Mike Holbrook]

I have read posts by custom knife makers who have belt sanders into the thousands of dollars who claim they do most of their work on a $218 Kalamazoo. I wanted a little more flexibility so I went with the Grainger.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=505-1371&PMPXNO=952569&PARTPG=INLMK32

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/productIndex.shtml?operator=prodIndexRefinementSea rch&originalValue=Dayton+1%2F3+hp+motor&L1=Belt+Sanders%2C

I ran a thread on belt sander belts on a knife forum that may be helpful in selecting belts and grinding/sharpening on a belt sander:

http://www.scrapyardknives.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=327753&an=0&page=1#Post327753

Stay sharp,

Mitch