Why not Delta?

[John Pratt]

I have seen numerous threads about the purchase of new tools and they always seem to be about PM, Griz, or other brands. I rarely see threads about the purchase of NEW Delta products. Why? Is it the price point? Quality? Service? Just wondering. I have always been a fan of Delta tools (I have several) and wondered why I don't see more opinion about their tools here other than older refurbished models.

[Rod Sheridan]

John, I owned a couple of pieces of equipment from the long ago era when they were made in the USA.

Unless I am mistaken, their products are now made in Taiwan or China.

I simply refuse to buy machinery from countries that don't have equivalent or better environmental, labour and social programs compared to Canadian programs, unless an equivalent or better product isn't available.

That leaves me with Canadian (General) or European (Felder, Hammer, MiniMax) equipment, which isn't a bad thing.

The present Delts equipment is in no way equivalent to the above manufacturers.

Regards, Rod.

[John Pratt]

I thought the newest TS was built here in the US. I have heard there was a push by Delta to make more of thier other products in the US as well. Now I know some of the smaller parts are manufatured elsewhere but I can't think of any machine (large machine not accessories) or company that has every part manufatured in the US or Canada (which is really foriegn also (no offense to the Canucks out there)). There are "American" cars that are more foriegn than the "foriegn" cars sold in the US. I think the same is true for a lot of Woodworking machinery.

Not trying to stir up a long debate on trade laws and such. Just wondering why I don't hear more about Delta. I personnaly have had no issues with service or quality. Just thought maybe others have.

[David Christopher]

John, their new midi lathe and new unisaw are the cats meow

[Rick Fisher]

Delta fell from favor when Black and Decker bought them out..

They import Chinese and Taiwanese machinery and try to sell the name..
Some of there tools are very nice, but rarely the best value..

[mickey cassiba]

Very few of the New Delta Models are made in North America, and most of them have Asian parts as well. The RAS's as well as the Gang borer are still produced here.

[johnny means]

John, I owned a couple of pieces of equipment from the long ago era when they were made in the USA.

I simply refuse to buy machinery from countries that don't have equivalent or better environmental, labour and social programs compared to Canadian programs, unless an equivalent or better product isn't available.



Regards, Rod.

You do realize that your American equipment, made in a "long ago era", was manufactured in similar conditions to those you seem to frown upon now. Funny how we take such a sophomoric view of how developing economies do business. We are not that far removed from our own sweatshop era. We enjoy the fruits of the nightmare conditions that allowed our economies to become world leaders, then look upon other societies that follow our model with disdain.

[Kevin Groenke]

John,

Others can argue all they want but IMO the quality of Delta's products and customer service have been on a rather long decline since the 80's (or before). For whatever reason, I think this decline parallels that of American auto manufacturing rather closely.

Delta had long had the benefit of being able to rest on it's reputation, at this point they're reputation usually fades to anybody making a knowledgeable apples-to-apples comparison to other manufacturers products. They were long seen as a "premium" brand (though they were really rarely the best at anything). Today much of their equipment is mediocre but still carries a premium price. Value and excellence seems like recurring themes in equipment discussions here at the creek. I'd guess Delta doesn't come up in many comparisons/recommendations/discussions because they often don't offer particularly valuable or excellent options.

In recent memory Delta has produced a number of pieces of equipment which have simply been poorly designed and/or executed, I can think of a couple that were publicly announced at big trade shows and simply never made it to the showroom floor.

Among other things that have turned me off to Delta is the exorbitant pricing of their repair parts: they often use proprietary parts (motors in particular) thus preventing replacement with off-the-shelf parts (such as standard NEMA frame motors).

Several manufacturers have quality products produced in Asia, so the outsourcing of manufacturing is simply not a valid excuse - those factories do make what they're hired to make after all. Rod's locally produced standards are commendable and enviable, but obviously many are going to choose otherwise.

Delta will have to make MAJOR changes to their product line and business model if it's to restore it's reputation with me and I'm sure many others like me.

-kg

[Kent A Bathurst]

Whoooaa, there fellas - One thing I really like about SMC is that the group's expertise stays focused on the issue at hand, without veering into political subplots and retorts as some other sites do too often. Looks like a good opportunity to "take it outside" to Off-Topic. I'll be happy to argue my side in that forum.

[Tony Bilello]

I had been out of woodworking for a long while and recently got back into it. I heard about Delta going down hill and Jet being the cat's meow. Well, after purchasing some new equipment, I totally disagree. My new Delta Contractors Saw is just as good as my old one was. My new Jet Lathe was replaced with a Delta Lathe. I feel that the Delta is still far superior to Jet and Grizzly.
I wonder how many anti-Delta people out there have used and made actual comparisons or are just repeating the Chinese/Black and Decker story they read about. Some of these type of replies are almost word for word. It took me a while and loss of some money to figure that out.
The country of origin has nothing to do with quality. It's all about the Manufacturers specs and the manufacturers quality control. Just because 2 'exact' looking products come out of the same factory does NOT make it the same product. Anyone who has ever been involved in manufacturing can tell you that.

[Cary Falk]

My shop is comprised of Delta, Jet, Grizzly, Shop Fox, and Steel City. I have had many Delta tools in the past. What I have left is a 22-580 lunchbox planer( my 1970 Unisaw techincally doesn't count). I have never had a problem with customer service. The last time I had to use it was a bout 3 years ago. The Delta tools I have replaced were a contractor saw(great), and a 14" Band saw(terrible vibration). I upgraded to a bigger tool in both cases. I shop for value. I look at available features vs price. On my recent purchases, Delta didn't have the features I was looking for and I think they are holding on to their pricing like they are still the gold standard. I find replacement parts are also pretty high. I find their tools to be on par, fit and finish wise, with the other brands in my shop. There for a while they were resting on their reputation and cheeping their line. The new drill presses and Unisaw look like they are trying to turn around. I hope they do because I like them in general. I have 2 large purchases left but the business will likely go to Grizzly. They have the best value and features. I am real happy with the Grizzly tools I currently have.

[John Pratt]

As stated I don't want to get into a discussion of foriegn labor practices. I am just wondering why there are so few discussions related to Delta large machinery. I haven't really heard to many say they have bad quality, but some relate the price point is too high. At what point is the line drawn between quality vs. price. Personnally I start my search for a new machine at the "cost be damned" end and work down from there (keep in mind I am talking about the home shop, not a production type shop with 14" TS costing 25K). keeping price out of the equation, is not Delta on the same level as Griz, PM, Jet, etc..

After reading this I realize I am starting to sound like a Delta survey, but I assure you I am in no way affiliated with them. However, I do own several tools made from them and might get more, but I never see discussion related to their newest machinery. I stated in a different thread that I just got the new Unisaw but The only real TS threads I see are SS, PM, or Griz. I can't give an honest review of the new Unisaw yet, I don't have the new shop organized enough to run it through its paces. The only Delta tool I have been disappointed in was the Bench-top Mortiser. All others have worked as advertised.

[Neal Clayton]

I have seen numerous threads about the purchase of new tools and they always seem to be about PM, Griz, or other brands. I rarely see threads about the purchase of NEW Delta products. Why? Is it the price point? Quality? Service? Just wondering. I have always been a fan of Delta tools (I have several) and wondered why I don't see more opinion about their tools here other than older refurbished models.

because they price gouge on parts. and the more years go by, the shorter the lifespan of those newer parts.

[Jeff Duncan]

I have a fair amount of equipment in my shop coming from all over the globe. I have several Delta's including 2 older Unisaws, an 02' - 20" bandsaw, an 02' 1 hp power feeder, an early 80's DJ-20, and had until about a year ago an 02' HD shaper. My feeling is the heavy duty machines I own or have owned, are well made solid equipment. There are definitely small things (like plastic knobs) that they've cut costs and went cheaper on. But for the most part the equipment is still reliable for day to day use. While the older equipment was sometimes better made, I think it gets a bit overblown on these forums. I think you get what you pay for and having owned several Grizzly machines over the years I have no dillusion that they're the same machine with different paint. That's not to say they can't be a great value for the money for some guys, but they're not the same machine any more than a Ryobi cordless drill is the same as a Makita just b/c they look similar.
Light duty Delta equipment is a different story and I really don't buy any machines out of the box stores so I won't comment on that end of the line.

Now Powermatic I feel has really made a concentrated effort to remain in the game. They've introduced new equipment like line boring machines, drum sanders, and dovetail machines meant to attract small shops. The machines are imported, but I find them well made for the money. Not sure about there smaller stuff either as I've heard the new 6"-8" jointers are prone to problems.

At the end of the day I think you have to go on a machine by machine basis. I would never limit myself to 1 or 2 manufacturers, although there are several I'd avoid. I also don't put too much into where they are made, I've driven Ford trucks made in Canada, Chevy's made in Mexico, and Toyota's made in the US... all with parts sourced from around the globe. The computer I'm typing this on is full of parts made elsewhere, as are all the other computers guys on this forum are using. Look at the product and make a decision based on that individual products quality.

good luck,
JeffD

[Brad Westcott]

If you do some searching, you will find that most of the Delta products just do not hold up to their competition when reviewed by professionals. They seem to have lost their focus and are no longer the top dog in woodworking equipment.

I have a Delta Professional contractors table saw (no longer made) that is as accurate as anything I will ever need. It has obviously held up over the many years and although I have been tempted to upgrade to a Jet or Grizzy hybrid, I just can not justify the expenditure as long as my saw still cuts straight and true and still reliable.

I could say the same about Craftsman. It used to be, that is all I bought and I still have Craftsman hand/power tools that still work after 40 years!!! But, they are not the company they once were either and I no longer buy their products.

Here in the states, many a company are run by bean counters, not owners or true managers. This leads to poor decisions based on numbers on a spreadsheet. Well, guess what, not everything is quantifiable in this manner and many a large company are paying the price for only caring about stock price and dividends to the stock holders.

[glenn bradley]

I have some old Delta machines that are better than most new machines. I have a new Delta DP that is not. Based on recent experience, Delta is off my list of manufacturers that I consider. Their service after the sale is very poor, their website is near useless and calling them??? Forget it. That has just been my experience over the last couple of years.

[Paul Johnstone]

I own a lot of Delta equipment. Like many brands, they make some things trying to focus purely on cost. Some of the "Shopsmith" tools were made this way. Their upper end tools are still good. Definitely in the same league as their peers. No manufacturer has the best at every tool.
Delta is far from the worst.

As far as their customer service/spare parts goes.. I don't see them any worse than the other companies. Like everyone else, you are probably going to pay $10 to ship a 50 cent part. You are going to pay a premium to order spare parts from them, just like Jet or anyone else. It costs money to maintain an inventory of spare parts.

Overall, I have only been disappointed in one Delta tool.. It was a Shopmaster sander that was maybe $40-50 or so at Lowes. The disk fell off, but the sanding band still works fine. Since I primarily bought it for the sanding band, I guess I don't have any regrets. I have been satisfied with every other Delta tool I purchased.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

About 20 years ago, the big dogs were Delta, Powermatic and DeWalt (when they were a machinery company). General was not quite that popular in the US. The other option was Taiwanese import clones that were of inferior quality. Some of the brands mentioned in this post offered these lesser quality tools at a lower cost. I know I have/had some of them.

Then something happened in the last 8 to 10 years: the import stuff began getting much better. In addition to better quality manufacturing, new designs were being offered vs. just offering the same old clones. The competition was fearce. Many smaller importers of clones are gone today, but the ones left are big, more diverse and leading, and have a good service reputation.

So....it's not apparent to me that Delta' quality has dropped so drastically. Rather, it's that the other importers got better and Delta was slow to reinvent it's machines and seek lower manufacturing costs. Unfortunately, the attraction to go offshore is simply the way all US manufacturing is going. How could Delta be immune?

-Jeff :)

[scott spencer]

Keep in mind that Delta has expanded their line to include the lower end Shop Master line, which may dilute the name a bit in the minds of some. I see lots of posts from mainly happy owners of Delta's Industrial line. The 22-580 thickness planer, the 36-980 contractor saw, Delta DP's, and occasionally the Delta hybrid saws all get owner posts and comments. The Delta T2 fence gets the lion's share of discussions about value fences. The new American made Unisaw is getting lots of press these days. I don't see too much about big Delta planers or jointers lately but have in the past. Overall Delta tends to fetch a premium because it's a sought after and recognized name. I do think they're due for some updates to their Industrial lineup but I still view them as a quality name.

[Rod Sheridan]

John, I'm in complete agreement that you can have any quality of machine produced anywhere in the world.

My issue with the imported stuff from Aisia is twofold:

- the social/labour/environmental issues

- the fact that the importers are placing a premium on cost as opposed to quality.

I've owned mostly General equipment and the quality and performance have been high, so has the price, however I feel that's a fair trade.

Delta, General, Powermatic et al, have failed to innovate, and that also has killed their business.

How can Felder/Hammer/MiniMax/SCM/Agganzi etc. all produce high end equipment in high cost locations that sells very well, when the NA equipment makers went belly up?

It's simple, quality, performance, accuracy and innovation.

My General 650 saw which has just been sold, doesn't look much different than a 1950 Unisaw. Look at Felder since 1950 and see what innovation looks like.


Regards, Rod.

[Tony Bilello]

Thanks Scott
When I replied earlier, I was speaking of Delta quality of their industrial line and not their low end discount house brand of Shop Master. I completely forgot about that line. Many years ago, when you got a Delta Catalog, Shop Master was not even in their catalog. I havent looked at a Delta Catalog lately so I dont know if it's is in there today or not.
This is not uncommon for reputable manufacturers to throw out discount house brands on the low end market just to compete with that market. Freud comes to mind here. There are Freud blades and there are Freud Diablo blades. The Freud Diablo blades appear in the big box stores but not in the quality tool stores.

I think one of the reasons that Felder/Hammer/MiniMax/SCM/Agganzi etc. all produce high end equipment in high cost locations that sells very well, and NA equipment makers went belly up is that Europens that lived with inferior quality everything in the past are very quality conscious now. On the other hand, Americans went the other direction. Americans want more for less and want it now.

[Peter Quinn]

I have three older Delta machines, a DC-380 planer, a 3HP shaper, and a DJ-20 jointer in my shop and all work well. I got them used. I ordered a "special nut" to hold the interchangeable 1/2" shaper spindle to the cartridge assembly as I got the machine without it and had a number of 1/2" cutters I wanted to play with. They sent me the wrong "not so special" nut, gave me a hassle about returning it, then when I went to reorder the correct item a short time after, my shaper had been deemed "obsolete" and parts references were no longer available. Strike one.

I wanted to change the gear box oil in the planer, and it was going to cost nearly $40 for the two pints of "Delta SPECIAL gear oil" between their outrageous pricing and shipping. They recommend changing every 6 months in the manual. So I figure hey, they are not in the petroleum refinery business, they use a stock item, I'll call and ask what weight oil they recommend. Stone wall. They recommend you buy their insanely priced Delta branded oil. So I pulled the Powermatic 15" planer manual, and they recommend any "80 weight hypoid synthetic gear oil", which can be purchased for $2.95 per quart at any local auto parts store. It works great. Strike two.

Then I decided to change all the old belts, and upgrade to VX cogged belts, but they don't list the standard belt sizes in the parts manual, nor would they give me that information on the phone. They use standard belts marked with Delta part numbers, not standard belt codes, and they advise you to buy "Special Delta belts" at a fairly steep mark up versus any other vendor. And when your belt craps out on a weekend in the middle of a job for money, its nice to know the size so you can run down to Napa and get a replacement on the fly, but they won't tell you the size, they make you measure and mic it, figure out the pitch your self. And the half dozen phone calls I have made to CS have been some of the least pleasant least helpful calls I have ever made. Strike three.

I also have several PM machines, and the folks at WMH have a far better sense of what CS means. Delta can kiss my hairy white butt! They can create the the finest WW machines on the planet, and that won't get me to ever purchase another of their machines, because I have no confidence in their post purchase support, their commitment to parts for older machines, their longevity, or their consistency. I have dealt with CS at Grizzly, Laguna, Minimax, Powermatic; all are far superior to Delta Service net. I have had a better time getting parts for my nearly 70 year old DeWalt RAS than a 20 year old Delta shaper!

All of the older Delta machines I have work well and satisfy my needs, seem to be well made, and do accurate work. I also have a newer Delta DP that works pretty well for a cheap Taiwan model, though the chuck has had a few hiccups and the stock belts were junk that had to be replaced (again I had to figure out which size and pitch to order with no help from Delta). It was a fair bargain in my mind and serves my needs.

What good is a machine "Built to last a life time" if it is made with proprietary parts that they will only support for just over a decade before changing designs while chasing a new buck and determining older models obsolete?

[Dave Lehnert]

About 20 years ago, the big dogs were Delta, Powermatic and DeWalt (when they were a machinery company). General was not quite that popular in the US. The other option was Taiwanese import clones that were of inferior quality. Some of the brands mentioned in this post offered these lesser quality tools at a lower cost. I know I have/had some of them.

Then something happened in the last 8 to 10 years: the import stuff began getting much better. In addition to better quality manufacturing, new designs were being offered vs. just offering the same old clones. The competition was fearce. Many smaller importers of clones are gone today, but the ones left are big, more diverse and leading, and have a good service reputation.

So....it's not apparent to me that Delta' quality has dropped so drastically. Rather, it's that the other importers got better and Delta was slow to reinvent it's machines and seek lower manufacturing costs. Unfortunately, the attraction to go offshore is simply the way all US manufacturing is going. How could Delta be immune?

-Jeff :)

I agree that Delta did not so much go down in quality. Others just got ahead of them.
The new Unisaw is made here in the USA but cost $3,000. Was told that price is going up soon. I had a look at it and it is impressive. May have just been the model on display but the cranks did not move nearly as well as my 10 year old JET.

[Neal Clayton]

I agree that Delta did not so much go down in quality. Others just got ahead of them.
The new Unisaw is made here in the USA but cost $3,000. Was told that price is going up soon. I had a look at it and it is impressive. May have just been the model on display but the cranks did not move nearly as well as my 10 year old JET.

because they're betting on making the same or lesser machine in a different location and charging a premium for it with political-esque marketing.

peter perfectly summed up delta's parts and service. bottom line, when you wind up with a delta tool if it breaks you'll realize you've been screwed.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

I have two Delta machines, a unisaw and a DJ20 jointer. I wouldn't trade either one but I also bought both of them on stellar deals at Amazon. They were so cheap that grizzly couldn't compete so I picked them up.

However, for my bandsaw Delta doesn't seem to be in the running. Same goes for a new planer.

[Darrell Bade]

This is one thing I have noticed over the years from reading a lot of Wood magazines. This also assumes that you put some belief in their testing methods which I personally have always thought they have creative ways of testing machines that actually mean something. Ten years ago it seemed like Delta was always a top pick, so much so that I wondered if Delta paid them for a good review. Nowdays it seems a Delta is rarely at the top of the heap.

Not sure this means a whole lot, just something I have noticed over the years. Personally I used to always consider a Delta tool when buying. I do still look at their stuff, but their are other manufactures that impress me more with their quality and features now.

[Maurice Ungaro]

I've bought all of my big tools (Uni, BS, & DP) as reconditioned from Delta. At prices 40% off of normal retail (not MSRP), I have been VERY pleased. Never had an major issue or mishap. If I were paying FULL retail for a new machine (in my philosophy, the day you pay full retail, you might as well give it up and croak), I would look at all the major brands.

As for customer service: The first time I contacted Delta about a remote for an air cleaner, they apologized for the problem and two-day aired me a new one.
Last year I contacted them about a part on the Uni's mobile base and they shipped out the part ASAP, no questions asked.

Guess my experiences have been good. Can't speak for everyone.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I have had a better time getting parts for my nearly 70 year old DeWalt RAS than a 20 year old Delta shaper!

A manufacturer maintaining part support for a 20 years model must be difficult and expensive. I don't even see this in the automotive world let alone home heating systems, appliances, electronics, etc. Worst yet, think about the software industry.

Perhaps Delta may have built their equipment too well back then. The parts department is apparently not profitable, or even sustainable, and now it's unreasonable for these tough old machines.

-Jeff :)

[Bruce Moir]

A year ago I bought a new Delta Hybrid TS thru a friend who worked at Black & Deccker. I will add that I am also a novice woodworker and this was my first new saw. I had no experience but got it unpacked and assembled and working. The Biesmeyer fence was stiff to slide across the table and seemed to catch on one of the mitre slots but I just assumed that was the way they worked. What a shock when I went to a specialty store that had the new Delta TS with a Biesmeyer fence on display. The fence moved across like on air. I went home and checked my saw - I am convinced the table was machined poorly and is uneven. Sorry for the long into - I contacted Delta - on line. It seems to be the only way to get a hold of them. They referred me to the closest Black & Decker service centre 45 min away. They do not pick up their phone or return calls. I can't exactly drop the saw off with them as it weighs 350 lbs! I finally contacted another B&D service outlet 3 hours away who got the local store to call me. They told me to send them an email and then would arrage for a tech to come to my place. That was a month ago. I email weekly with no repsonse. The upshot - I can't recommend Delta and would be very hard pressed to purchase any of their product no matter how good. The other lesson? Don't try to save a buck on tool purchases - buy thru a reputable dealer. Thx for letting me rant. You guys are a great source of info. for me.

[Kevin Barnett]

I agree with the tone of most comments above. Having a Delta DP, 2hp planer, and mortiser, I think I have some insight. I have had good results with my Delta purchases except the mortiser - bad packaging and bad repair service.

I think most of us are looking for instances where we get a lot of bang for the buck. Rarely is that ever the new Delta line of tools. Occassionally, there is special pricing on Amazon or a tool dealer, but that's not a daily occurrance. The everyday bang for our buck is Grizzly it seems. They have good service, a product that competes on par with Delta for quality, and parts.

The other instance that occurs is when we want to buy a premium "proud to have" product. To everyone, that may mean different things. To some, it's buying a USA made product. To others, it's about having a far superior product. Delta doesn't compete well in that arena either - except in older stationary tools. Powermatic, SS, LN, General, and Felder seem to fill that slot right now.

The exeption may be the new Unisaw. I don't know about that one.

So I guess my response would be that based on the two scenarios of purchases above, we just don't purchase or consider Delta tools as often as the other manufacturers.

[Sean Nagle]

All the negative input concerning Delta customer service and parts availability is very disconcerting.

I equipped my shop during the 90's and practically all my machines are Delta: Unisaw, DJ-15, DC-380, 17" DP, 14" BS and several bench-top machines. They have all served me quite well. The only stationary machines I'd like to "upgrade" would be the DP and BS.

I recall usenet discussions at the time always talking about Delta's superior availability of parts as a primary reason to choose Delta. People would often cite the availability of parts for 40-year old machines. I suppose no one can predict which of today's manufacturers will continue to support their products in 10, 20 or 40 years.

[mickey cassiba]

One of Delta's problems is that they have changed hands so many times. Each new owner has a different business model. I know...I survived three of the last changes. The real descent started when Pentair Corp bought them and decided to "modernize" the Porter Cable and Delta lines. Instead of trying to remain on top as the standard to be aspired to, they decided to become competitive with the consumer oriented lines. As a result the "bloodline" if you will, became diluted, and over time, when Pentair could no longer return a high return to their investors, PC & D, along with Oldham, and Beismeyer, Flex and Devillbis, collectively went on the block, to be snapped up by the worlds largest tool manufacturer/marketer, who shall here remain nameless.
I still repair Delta and Porter Cable tools, as well as DeWalt,and others, because we use them daily in the plant. Parts are becoming scarcer for the old stuff, but as one poster stated, hardly any industry stocks parts for units more than ten or fifteen years old. Logistically, it woud be a nightmare to keep up with, financially it would be insane to manufacture & stock parts for which there would be at best a 10-15 piece per year demand.
Does it suck? Yes it does.A good many craftsmen lost their jobs when Pentair began outsourcing.
A good many more lost theirs when the current owners took possesion. A lot of them my friends of many years.
Rant over...sorry, but I've been following this thread with great interest since it started, and I felt I had to add an eye-witness account.
Mickey

[John Coloccia]

I like my delta drill press, although I would probably not recommend it nescessarily. Generaly, I don't think delta gives me good value for my money. I think I get higher quality units fir the same price from other sources, or much higher quality units for just a little more money. On the low end I can get similar quality units for less. That's just my opinion but I think that's why delta is not talked about very much. I think they live at a very awkward price point.

[Tony Bilello]

Thanks Mickey, great story.

[Rod Sheridan]

Although there have been many posts regarding how unprofitable it would be for a manufacturer to continue to stock and manufacture parts for old machines, some do.

I own a 33 year old BMW motorcycle, and parts are available from the dealer on mostly a next day basis.

BMW in fact has reverse engineered parts for their pre-war motorcycles. Those of you who ride, know that BMW sell very few motorcycles, however the ones they sell often have hundreds of thousands of miles on them, and it's not unusual to see many machines that are 30 to 50 years old, out on the road.

A manufacturer can produce a quality product that lasts decades, and profitably support them, if they have a customer base willing to pay for it.

Buy cheap, low margin stuff, of course there won't be support for it, new or old.

Buy quality stuff, then there's enough margin to make it worthwhile to keep the machine in service, and enough return for the manufacturer to continue to support you.

Regards, Rod.

[mickey cassiba]

Although there have been many posts regarding how unprofitable it would be for a manufacturer to continue to stock and manufacture parts for old machines, some do.

I own a 33 year old BMW motorcycle, and parts are available from the dealer on mostly a next day basis.

BMW in fact has reverse engineered parts for their pre-war motorcycles. Those of you who ride, know that BMW sell very few motorcycles, however the ones they sell often have hundreds of thousands of miles on them, and it's not unusual to see many machines that are 30 to 50 years old, out on the road.

A manufacturer can produce a quality product that lasts decades, and profitably support them, if they have a customer base willing to pay for it.

Buy cheap, low margin stuff, of course there won't be support for it, new or old.

Buy quality stuff, then there's enough margin to make it worthwhile to keep the machine in service, and enough return for the manufacturer to continue to support you.

Regards, Rod.
Hi Rod...I understand your point, and I love BMW motorcycles(I have an early R69 I am restoring), but how many thousands of different models has BMW produced in their long and venerable history? My last service manual from Delta(lists only last 15 rears of production) has 1900 entries, each a different model.
Not being argumentative here, but a completely different business model. That said, I'm going to bow out of the posting and just read, lest I appear "trollish".
Mick

[Neal Clayton]

A manufacturer maintaining part support for a 20 years model must be difficult and expensive. I don't even see this in the automotive world let alone home heating systems, appliances, electronics, etc. Worst yet, think about the software industry.

Perhaps Delta may have built their equipment too well back then. The parts department is apparently not profitable, or even sustainable, and now it's unreasonable for these tough old machines.

-Jeff :)

well, my 'new' PM66 i bought two years ago (new as in, new to my shop, built in 1989), was missing belts, motor cover, and a couple of lock knobs for the bevel and blade height wheels when i got it. i got all of those sent from tennessee the same day i called them, for about 85 bucks.

i also own a delta RAS. when i got it the arbor had a slight wobble, i paid very little for it assuming motor replacement. delta wanted 400 dollars for a 1.5hp 110v motor. i did manage to talk them down to 300, which is still highway robbery. the switch went bad a week later, i paid them 65 for a replacement switch, which is a glorified light switch on that small a machine. six months later, the new switch is broken. and all of this not even concerning myself with the fact that the bevel and swing stops have two or three degrees of slop. it's only useful for a crosscutting saw because there is no accuracy if you move it from zero. this is all on a machine that's about 4-5 years old.

now, i don't expect a 1200 dollar radial arm saw to be as rugged as a 3500 dollar table saw. however, i do expect the moving parts to actually work for at least 10 years. because i've got alot older tools that have been working alot longer than that.

now i know why the shop i got it from was giving it away. they probably wont' make the mistake of buying delta tools for backup use either. because it didn't take them long to get tired of this one. nor is gonna take me much longer to put it on craigslist for a hundred bucks delivered. just waiting for an old dewalt to show up locally so i can get rid of this thing ;).

[Chris Rosenberger]

Clayton, have you priced a new motor for your Powermatic 66 from Powermatic? The last time I looked it was close to $800. The same motor from a motor shop in around $400. The motor for the radial arm saw is only available from Delta. It appears to me that the reason the shop was giving the radial arm saw away was because it had a bent arbor & they did not want to spend the money to replace the motor.

I have waited months to get parts from Delta & I have waited months to get parts from Powermatic. On the other hand, I have gotten parts from both in a few days. It just depends on the parts you need at the time.

I have one of the new Delta Unisaws. I cannot think of any improvements that could be made to it. It is a very well designed saw. That is why the price is high. Powermatic has a new, very well designed band saw. It is also high priced.

Companies will make what people want to buy.

[Kevin Groenke]

I have one of the new Delta Unisaws. I cannot think of any improvements that could be made to it. It is a very well designed saw.

REALLY??

NOTHING??

Wouldn't it be cool if the saw somehow STOPPED if you slipped and got a finger into it? You would think an innovative, safety conscious, customer oriented company like Delta would have the resources to do that or the business acumen to buy it if somebody else was able to do it.

Must be impossible.

[mickey cassiba]

REALLY??

NOTHING??

Wouldn't it be cool if the saw somehow STOPPED if you slipped and got a finger into it? You would think an innovative, safety conscious, customer oriented company like Delta would have the resources to do that or the business acumen to buy it if somebody else was able to do it.

Must be impossible.
I know I promised to bow out of this one, but guys...there is no more DELTA! It is Black and Decker Incorporated
Bottom line is money, not customer satisfaction, safety or any other noble ideal. Just money.

[Peter Quinn]

I hear the same explanation about the Delta parts situation each time their name comes up, its too expensive to be profitable to support machines, nobody does it, so they don't. Except some do. We have numerous aged Powermatic machines, TS's and shapers, BS, sanders, and seem able to get parts for all of them typically quite rapidly, from WMH. Even parts for some rather old machines I would expect would be long gone. And many parts are readily available from MSC or Master Carr, almost as if they had been MADE to be repaired with stock parts.

I guess my thinking is that Delta has had so many model's on some of their tools, and has changed hands so many times at this point, that they are a liability to own. They made the same basic shaper from Rockwell days to present for over 40 years, making only minor changes to a solid design, and yet they deem the older machines (ie: anything pre TIAWAN and thus SAE and not metric) irrelevant? I actually cornered a Delta rep at a tool vendor's sales desk and asked quite frankly why I couldn't get parts for my machine, and was told they would prefer I BUY A NEW SHAPER THAN SELL ME PARTS FOR THE OLD ONE! More profitable. Well I did buy another shaper, and it was most certainly not one of theirs. I will keep the old Delta until it dies or I do, and which will happen first is unclear, but what is clear is that I will die before I buy another major Delta machine.

[Chris Rosenberger]

REALLY??

NOTHING??

Wouldn't it be cool if the saw somehow STOPPED if you slipped and got a finger into it? You would think an innovative, safety conscious, customer oriented company like Delta would have the resources to do that or the business acumen to buy it if somebody else was able to do it.

Must be impossible.

I thought Saw Stop made those.
Not everyone is afraid of their table saw.

[David Keller NC]

Well - This is a bit of a different take on this discussion, but as to why most of the discussion on the net boards are of Grizzly (and even Harbor Freight, of all things) and not Delta, Felder, etc..., remember that net boards are not the sum and total of the woodworking community. Based on my work experience assessing the general desire of different age groups to use the internet and "new" communication forms such as blogs, vblogs, etc..., and the fact (an unfortunate fact, IMO) that most of the woodworking base are older males, I'd guess that net forums actually represent a very small fraction of the overall WW community.

And for reasons I don't fully understand, those that do actively participate are inordinately interested in the lowest price possible for any given category. That tends to skew the discussion to the lowest priced manufacturer, which currently seems to be Grizzly. Those of us that consider buying at the lowest price point in a given category unwise are the rarity.

[jack duren]

I have seen numerous threads about the purchase of new tools and they always seem to be about PM, Griz, or other brands. I rarely see threads about the purchase of NEW Delta products. Why? Is it the price point? Quality? Service? Just wondering. I have always been a fan of Delta tools (I have several) and wondered why I don't see more opinion about their tools here other than older refurbished models.


Most people here purchase based on saving a buck for similiar products or paying more for similiar products. anything in the middle isnt special;).

For standard cabinet making machinery I always shop Delta first....

[Kent A Bathurst]

.....Not everyone is afraid of their table saw.

No kidding!! Sawstop should be commended for their innovation, but that doesn't mean other brands failed. There are a LOT of fast-moving sharp things in my workshop, and I know how to respect them and use them safely. Jeeeez.

[John Coloccia]

Well - This is a bit of a different take on this discussion, but as to why most of the discussion on the net boards are of Grizzly (and even Harbor Freight, of all things) and not Delta, Felder, etc..., remember that net boards are not the sum and total of the woodworking community. Based on my work experience assessing the general desire of different age groups to use the internet and "new" communication forms such as blogs, vblogs, etc..., and the fact (an unfortunate fact, IMO) that most of the woodworking base are older males, I'd guess that net forums actually represent a very small fraction of the overall WW community.

And for reasons I don't fully understand, those that do actively participate are inordinately interested in the lowest price possible for any given category. That tends to skew the discussion to the lowest priced manufacturer, which currently seems to be Grizzly. Those of us that consider buying at the lowest price point in a given category unwise are the rarity.

I have a SawStop, a Jet Jointer/Planer, and Jet Drum Sander, a gigantic Grizzly Bandsaw, and a shop full of Lie-Neilsen planes and chisels.

I would say that most people are like me. We're looking for the best VALUE. The Lie-Neilsen planes and chisels are clearly not the cheapest by any stretch of the imagination. To me, however, they're clearly the best value because they last forever and work perfectly right out of the box.

Grizzly happens to have really great value in almost every product they make. If you don't mind a rough finish some places where it doesn't matter, Grizzly's products are just really nice tools. Would I rather have a Laguna band saw? Wait....actually, no. I didn't like the Laguna. Well, I'm sure there's some band saw out there somewhere that I'd rather have, but I wouldn't have been willing to pay 3X the price for a marginally better saw.

[David Keller NC]

I have a SawStop, a Jet Jointer/Planer, and Jet Drum Sander, a gigantic Grizzly Bandsaw, and a shop full of Lie-Neilsen planes and chisels.

I would say that most people are like me. We're looking for the best VALUE. The Lie-Neilsen planes and chisels are clearly not the cheapest by any stretch of the imagination. To me, however, they're clearly the best value because they last forever and work perfectly right out of the box.

Grizzly happens to have really great value in almost every product they make. If you don't mind a rough finish some places where it doesn't matter, Grizzly's products are just really nice tools. Would I rather have a Laguna band saw? Wait....actually, no. I didn't like the Laguna. Well, I'm sure there's some band saw out there somewhere that I'd rather have, but I wouldn't have been willing to pay 3X the price for a marginally better saw.

John - I would suggest that you are the exception on 'net boards, not the rule. On just the L-N subject alone, there are frequent threads where the whole undercurrent of the discussion is "L-N tools are soooo expensive - $300 for a handplane is ridiculous!". And I've recently seen threads where the OP was opining that he'd like a L-N handplane, but the L-V model was "significantly cheaper" - in that case, all of $20.