clifton vs lie nielsen????

[Roger Benton]

Been wanting a #4-1/2 for a while and decided to save up the cash and buy new. I'd love to hear from any owners of Clifton planes, as that is LN's only competition for my $$$. I'd set it up and use it only for fine smoothing, to complement my #3. So let's hear some opinions from the Clifton folks!

[Sam Takeuchi]

I don't have first hand experience with them, but this (http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/cSchwarz/z_art/cliftonP/clifton1.asp) might be of your interest.

By the way, are you ruling out Veritas 4-1/2?

[Joel Goodman]

Thanks for posting the Clifton review. I've always hesitated with Clifton as if I want to fettle I'll get an old Stanley and if I'm spending the $ I do feel better knowing that LN or LV is close by and will make it right. I can't imagine that you can send a Clifton back to the UK to correct a problem very easily.

[John Keeton]

I realize that Veritas is not in your short list of choices, but if you are not tied to the traditional look of the LN, I suggest you buy the Veritas Bevel Up Smoother (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=51870&cat=1,41182,52515), and never look back! With a couple (or three) blades, it will do everything you ask of it. At $215 ($291 with all three blades), it is less expensive than the LN at $325, or the Clifton at $300.

For a great review of the LV BUS, check out Derek Cohen's site here (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Smooth er.html) or, more to your original question, the comparison Derek makes here (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Marcou%20S15%20BU%20Smoother.html) to the $2,000 Marcou BUS and the LN 4.5.

All that being said, it is not a traditional looking plane, and if that is a requirement, then I vote for the LN.

But, the LV BUS is my go to, absolute favorite, plane!

http://www.leevalley.com/images/item/woodworking/planes/05p3601s4.jpg

[lowell holmes]

I have the LN 4 1/2. It is a remarkable plane. I've never used a Clifton, so I can't compare.

The LN came out of the box working. I spent about 30 seconds putting a secondary bevel on it and it worked.
Every time I pick it up, I'm glad I have it. I have some Bedrock's. The LN is superior to them.

I would also consider a BU smoother. I have a BU jack plane that is pretty much my go to plane. I like being able to change the pitch by changing irons. It is the plane I use on difficult wood like sapele or curly maple.

[Marco Cecala]

I can sort of compare. I have many LN planes and a Clifton #7. The LN's are ready to go out of the box. I finally had enough of the poor blade and worthless 2 piece chip breaker on my Clifton that I ordered Hock replacements for it. The link to Christopher's article is worth a read.

My advice? Buy the LN and be sure you got good stuff, not the potential for a Friday made Clifton.

[Phillip Pattee]

Here is another review done by Schwartz on a Clifton #3 smoother. It's probably an earlier review than the other. http://www.rlarson.com/WebPages/Clifton%20Review.htm

[Terry Beadle]

I've been using my Clifton #3 for several years now. The blade takes an excellent edge and keeps it for quite a while. Resharpening is quicker than the A2 LN blades I have.

I had to spend a whole 1/2 hour true-ing the sole. I've never had to touch the sole again. It's given me great service on cheery, red oak, and even Aftrican mahogany ( up to a point where no smoother I have will do the whole job and a scraper session is demanded. ).

It's a great value in my book and I'm glad I bought when they first came out instead of later when the price went up a bit.

If I had to choose between a Clifton #3 and a LN #4 bronze...well after pulling a few hairs and a longing look at the #3...I'd get the LN. Fickel you say? Nah...grass is always greener in smoother land...hoot!

Enjoy the shavings.

[Matt Radtke]

Just reading the Chris Schwarz review about Clifton planes and something jumps out at me. Clifton planes are made from old-school cast iron. LN planes are ductile iron. That alone is enough to scare me away from Clifton.

Cast iron can shatter if you drop it. Ductile iron won't crack if you hit it with a hammer. For old tools, cast is fine. For modern, fine tools with a price to match, I just say no.

[Scott Mark]

I'd have to second taking a look at the Bevel Up Smoother from LV. I don't have the smoother (yet) but I have the Low Angle Jack and Bevel Up Jointer with all 3 blades. The set screws on the sides are great. They are an amazing feature that I think get overlooked too many times. Setting the blades after swapping them out would be much more time consuming without them.

If you don't like the weird look of the LV, Matt's point would definitely be a deal breaker for me. Ductile iron (on the LV and LN) is priceless, IMHO, compared to cast iron.

Good luck and I hope this helps!

[Matt Wilson]

Just reading the Chris Schwarz review about Clifton planes and something jumps out at me. Clifton planes are made from old-school cast iron. LN planes are ductile iron. That alone is enough to scare me away from Clifton.

Cast iron can shatter if you drop it. Ductile iron won't crack if you hit it with a hammer. For old tools, cast is fine. For modern, fine tools with a price to match, I just say no.

I think its a little bit better than that, but I have no experience with Clifton planes. For what its worth, I found this on-line.
"The bodies of Clifton planes are machined from annealed grey iron, which has much greater strength than raw grey iron but unlike malleable or ductile iron will not distort in the event of an impact."

[Prashun Patel]

I respect yr decision to go Clifton or LN, but I'll 3rd the suggestion to look at the BU smoother from Veritas. It takes the thinnest, most consistent shavings I've ever experienced.

[Phillip Pattee]

This is a write up of how Clifton planes are manufactured. It seems that they also drop their planes from about 20 feet and hit them with hammers.

http://www.getwoodworking.com/news/article.asp?a=917

Grey iron comes in different grades. Clifton exercises significant quality control. All grey iron isn't as brittle as I thought. The writer of this article addresses the grey iron, ductile iron debate directly. It's pretty rah, rah, but worth a read before you decide against Clifton planes on the basis of materials.

[Kevin Looker]

You may also want to consider the LN low angle smoothing plane.

Or eliminate the guessing & compromises & just get a Holtey.

Kevin Looker

[Barry Vabeach]

Roger, I have a Clifton 6, and the LN 62, so not a direct comparison. I love mass of the Clifton, the iron gets very sharp, and the cap iron is quite thick. The downside, IMHO, is that the handle shape isn't great. The handle on the LN, in contrast, is perfect. If possible, try out the handles first, because hand size varies and what might be great for most, might feel horrible to you.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I've got an army of LN planes (SWMBO gets their catalogs and their tools are my birthday, Christmas and Father's Day presents) and a single Clifton #3. The Clifton #3 is my favorite bevel down plane (out of many LNs, vintage Stanleys and Sargents).

Other planes that rank up with the Clifton as near favorites are an LN #4 with a high angle frog, a LN low angle jack, a LN low angle jointer and the LV bevel up smoother.

Planes are like Fritos--you can't get just one!

[Heather Thompson]

Roger,

I have a Clifton #4 and a Lie-Nielsen #4 in bronze, both are excellent planes, the Lie-Nielson was purchased with a York Pitch Frog for challenging grain. While attending a six week woodworking program I had the opportunity to test drive Lee Valley, Lie-Nielsen and Clifton shoulder planes, my money went for the Clifton 410.

As far as the Friday made Clifton, that is really not an issue, simply do business with "The Best Things". http://www.thebestthings.com/newtools/clifton.htm
Their customer service is excellent, they are friendly, fast and recognize my voice when I call (have only called a handfull of times).

To address the issue of set up, I always spend time with any plane, nothing comes out of the box ready to use. :D

And on a closing thought, the reviews by Christopher Schwarz, did you ever notice that he attends every event that Lie-Nielsen Toolworks is at, remember this is business. :rolleyes:

Either way you go, you will have a smile on your face as you make some fine shavings, enjoy.

Heather

[Sam Takeuchi]

But I don't think he's making an unfair assessment on Clifton, though. His point wasn't that the Clifton is a bad brand, but have quality consistency problem, and that he had such and such problems with his Clifton. He wasn't pulling problems from his rear end simply out of spite.

LN planes are excellent tools and perhaps he never had to deal with the problems he had with Clifton. I'm not partial to either brands, but I wouldn't be happy to buy a plane in $200 - $400 range and have some piece falling off or something that doesn't work right. I don't mean 'fine tuning' a plane, but requiring work to get the basic function right, like making relatively uninterrupted shavings (I don't mean .001" shaving, but relatively smooth and consistent shaving). Fine tune I can do, and for a vintage plane under $80, I would even be willing to work out the kinks, but in $200 - $400, having to complete the manufacturing process seems like a bit of dull task, especially when there are other manufacturers that offer excellent alternatives. The way I see it, in that price range, quality of tool shouldn't depend on which box out of a batch is the lucky or unlucky one.

[Joel Goodman]

For me the hesitation over Clifton is that the factory is over the pond. LN's do rarely have issues -- my #62 wasn't square on one side -- but they cheerfully and promptly fixed it and refunded my shipping costs.

[Tony Zaffuto]

With the so-called Clifton problems, maybe a poll should be conducted of those who actually had problems, and post what those problems were. The time frame of when the problems occurred would also be interesting: were the problems recent (a week or two ago), a year ago or several years ago.

I only own one Clifton versus many LNs, LVs & vintage planes. It is nice to have solid alternatives.

[Joel Goodman]

With the so-called Clifton problems, maybe a poll should be conducted of those who actually had problems, and post what those problems were. The time frame of when the problems occurred would also be interesting: were the problems recent (a week or two ago), a year ago or several years ago.

I only own one Clifton versus many LNs, LVs & vintage planes. It is nice to have solid alternatives.



All you Clifton owners please post!

[Joel Moskowitz]

When the Cliftons first came out there were growing pains. In the past few years however we have never had any complaints except for a loose handle - just tighten the screw - England is wetter than here and the handles sometimes shrink.
I think Chris's review is just dated. This is one problem with the internet - everything lives forever. Imagine if there was an Internet in 1909 - we would still be reading Stanley reviews that talked about Rosewood handles, and a smooth tight adjuster.

[David Gendron]

I think, for me anyway, that buying American(Canadian) as much as I can is a plus vallue. I don't say that Clifton is not good anough, I just think that we have great tool makers here in North America that build tools here in North America and if we want them to keep doing so we should buy from them!! On top of that, I would say that I try to give my money to small tool makers. Of course you have to compare apple to apple so inbetween LV, LN and Clifton #4, I woud probably go with LV first since I'm in Canada... and since I think they are all some what the same( I know I know, I don't want to start something here so we will live it at that!)

[Joel Moskowitz]

While I perfectly agree with the concept of buying local on the size issue Clifton is by far the smallest company of the three.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Joel,

Thanks for your response--that was the point I was trying to make! I would still like to hear from any SMC member that has had an issue with his/her Clifton plane, and what the issue was.

The way I look at my Clifton is, the blade is superb, and the equal of any other manufacturer's. Some love the 2-piece chip breaker (I do) and some hate it, but again it is a premium piece. When I bought my #3, the price was substantially less than the equivalent LN.

T.Z.

[Steve Hamlin]

All this of course is, "In my experience."

Of ten bench planes, all bar three (Record CS88 smoother and T5 technical jack and Knight smoother) are Cliftons. Block planes and scrub are LN.

I've had one Cliffie (5 1/2) which needed minor flattening, two LNs that needed work (60 1/2 depth adjuster, 507 sole and cap iron tuning) and one that needed replacement ( 140R )

Personal experience (and recent hearsay) of both companies' customer service (and that of their principal dealers) is exemplary.

Cliffie blades need a little more work than LN (assuming no ruler trick) but heaps less than Hock. Would that I had Cliffie carbon steel for my LN blocks.

Cliffies are heavier than their LN equivalents.

I have seen the home movies of Cliftons being flight tested - scary stuff, and quite convincing!

The modern looking Clifton handles are supposed to be an improvement ergonomically - though I do prefer the more traditional LN shape - perhaps because I like a low bench.

Please apply seasoning to taste - as is no doubt apparent, I'm a Clifton fan (plus a Brit - so the opposite 'buy local' argument applies.)

Cheers
Steve

[Jim Koepke]

Please apply seasoning to taste - as is no doubt apparent, I'm a Clifton fan (plus a Brit - so the opposite 'buy local' argument applies.)

Cheers
Steve

It still amazes me to have world wide commentary on something such as our personal feelings about one hand plane versus another.

Exhilarating...

jim

[Roger Benton]

thanks for all the input.
the grey iron vs ductile iron matter wasn't even something i was aware of, glad I asked!
All in all, seems like with LN you can't go wrong and with the clifton you'd get a quality tool that may take some work to get running well. the LV bevel up smoother with 3 blades at different pitches for the same (or less) money is interesting... i love the feel and performance of my baileys and wanted to stay with the bedrock style because i feel like i know what to expect from an extremely well made version of that style. i think i will wait to spend the cash until i can demo an LV BUS.
thanks again for all the info and opinions.

-Roger Benton

[Rick Erickson]

Roger, I'm in the LN camp all the way. I own the 4 1/2 as well as many of their other planes. You can't go wrong with the 4 1/2. I will say however that I recently purchased the LV BUS by recommendation from MANY people. While IMO it is one ugly plane the performance is superb. I bought it to tame some African Mahogany which I couldn't do with my LN 4 1/2 with HA frog (55-degree). The LV BUS just scoffed at it and proceeded to whip it into submission on all accounts. I ended up with a perfectly smooth surface after just a few passes. Now I'm not a super skilled hand tool worker so many would say you can do it with the LN 4 1/2 (and I'm sure you can) - I can't. But I can with the LV BUS. Boy, if it could just look like the LN smoother. :)

[Joe Close]

... Boy, if it could just look like the LN smoother. :)

Rick, Was there any particular reason, other than recommendations, you choose the LV over the LN. Price is not that fair apart. You seem to like LN, and the looks of the LN BUS, but choose the LV ?

I'm kind of fond of LN's myself.

[Eric Brown]

I got the LV BUS over the L-N for one reason: it has a 2 1/4" wide blade instead of a 2". May not seem like much but I use mine on a shooting board and with the the LV I can edge a 8/4 board. As for the LV being not as pretty as the L-N BUS, I agree. Now if Rob had made a non-rust version I would have spent an extra $100 without hesitation.

Eric

[Joe Close]

I got the LV BUS over the L-N for one reason: it has a 2 1/4" wide blade instead of a 2". May not seem like much but I use mine on a shooting board and with the the LV I can edge a 8/4 board. As for the LV being not as pretty as the L-N BUS, I agree. Now if Rob had made a non-rust version I would have spent an extra $100 without hesitation.

Eric
I've never held a LV BUS, but in looking at the pics, it does not look as though there is much support along the side to be using on a shooting board. ? Have you modified yours?

[Sam Takeuchi]

LV BUS is a 2-1/4" bladed smoother but can't be used on its sides. LV LAS is a 2" bladed smoother that can be used on its sides.

[Eric Brown]

I'm sorry. I didn't mean the LV BU smoother but the BU Jack.

Eric

[Rick Erickson]

Rick, Was there any particular reason, other than recommendations, you choose the LV over the LN. Price is not that fair apart. You seem to like LN, and the looks of the LN BUS, but choose the LV ?

I'm kind of fond of LN's myself.

Joe, I was all over the LN until I read about their blade adjustment. They even have a video on uTube showing their bevel up line. It turned me off. For a smoother it is a bit too challenging for me (I'm sure it is no big deal to others). I emailed Christopher Schwartz and asked for his recommendation on a bevel up plane (after reading his new book - excellent purchase BTW). If he could only own one which would it be. He suggested the LV BUS (with one of the drivers being the ease of setup). He had nothing bad to say about the LN line, he just preferred the LV line for the BUS.

[Rick Erickson]

I never thought about using the LV BUS on the shooting board. Interesting idea. I use either my LN 5 1/2 or believe-it-or-not my LN #8 jointer. The #8 works VERY well as a shooter. The weight of it really helps with the control. You don't have to push as hard to keep the plane riding against the edge. It is pretty effortless.

[John Keeton]

Rick, I think Eric corrected his post and meant to say the BU Jack was used to shoot. That is also what I use, and it works great. Just enough mass. Though, I imagine your LN 5.5 and 8 work great, as well.

[Rick Erickson]

Ah, that's what I get for not reading the entire post. Thanks for the update.

[David Keller NC]

Joe, I was all over the LN until I read about their blade adjustment. They even have a video on uTube showing their bevel up line. It turned me off. For a smoother it is a bit too challenging for me (I'm sure it is no big deal to others).

There is actually an advantage in one respect to the way the LN plane is adjusted. It isn't nearly as easy as with a bevel down Stanely design, but you can extend the blade on the planing stroke, which is not possible with the LV Norris-Style adjuster. One reason you might wish to do this (adjust on the planing stroke) with a smoother is that you can avoid accidentally taking a big gouge out of your nicely prepared flat surface by backing the blade off to the point where it is above the sole, then gradually extend it on a few strokes over the surface.

One other comment is that adjustment by hammer tap is far more accurate than any lateral mechanism yet devised - all of them, whether they be of the Bailey design or the Norris type (and there are a few others that are considerably rarer) are fairly coarse - small adjustments to the lever result in big swings in the shaving thickness one one or the other side of the plane.

[Rick Erickson]

All good points David. That is one of the main reasons I prefer the bevel down planes to the bevel up. Sneaking up on the cut is very desirable and good practice. I only use my LV BUS for really nasty grain. I always revert back to the trusty LN 4 1/2 for all other smoothing operations.

[Roger Benton]

Rick, i've had to deal with african mahogany and if you're telling me your LV BUS can take shavings off that stuff with no tear out then i'm all ears. i get tear out on african mahogany with my LV large scraper plane! (and yes i like to think i know how to set it up properly).
on your BUS, what angle is the blade honed to and what is your final 'angle of approach'?

i too prefer the look of the 4-1/2, and i think i would really enjoy the heft, but i can't discount results.
the lv bus is looking like a winner.....
of course in an ideal world i'd own both.

[Matt Wilson]

Rick, i've had to deal with african mahogany and if you're telling me your LV BUS can take shavings off that stuff with no tear out then i'm all ears. i get tear out on african mahogany with my LV large scraper plane! (and yes i like to think i know how to set it up properly).
on your BUS, what angle is the blade honed to and what is your final 'angle of approach'?


I'm not Rick, but I was just doing this last night.

I have a piece of Ribbon Mahogany thats just a big mass of reversing grain. My LV BUS with a 50 Degree blade ( so a 62 Degree angle of attack ) cleaned it up no problems. The BUS is the "hired gun" on my plane shelf.

BTW, if you decide to go that route do yourself a favor and read the Derek's article about the best way to setup your HA BU blade. Grind the primary bevel low (or buy the low blade), and then use a honing guide to add a secondary high cutting angle. Personally I usually hollow grind my blades, but I found trying to hone a blade at that angle to be beyond my skill level (plus its much more of a pain to create a camber).

Good luck, the LV BUS is IMO an incredible value for the price!

btw, here is a picture of a similar piece of Ribbon Mahogany that my BUS tackled... (sorry, not a great picture)
http://i207.photobucket.com/albums/bb279/mwilson_24/P3040064-1.jpg

[David Keller NC]

Rick, i've had to deal with african mahogany and if you're telling me your LV BUS can take shavings off that stuff with no tear out then i'm all ears. i get tear out on african mahogany with my LV large scraper plane! (and yes i like to think i know how to set it up properly).
on your BUS, what angle is the blade honed to and what is your final 'angle of approach'?

i too prefer the look of the 4-1/2, and i think i would really enjoy the heft, but i can't discount results.
the lv bus is looking like a winner.....
of course in an ideal world i'd own both.

Khaya (usually what "african mahogany" is) is one of the most difficult species to plane. It's not just the grain reversal - this wood also has fairly weak bonds between the fibers, which makes tearing very easy.

And, at least in my experience, every board is different. Some will clean up fairly nicely with a high cutting angle, others will refuse all blades, even cabinet scrapers, and sanding is a last resort.

If you want to try a high cutting angle before investing $$$ in planes, you can easily achieve the same result as a BUS by puttng a back-bevel on your BD smoother blade. The back-bevel doesn't need to be wide - a few millimeters is all it takes. I do this by putting a wooden block under the end of the blade to raise the cutting edge off of an 8000 grit stone, then give it a few lateral strokes. Using the wooden block means that I can easily repeat that angle when it comes time to re-hone the blade.

However, I'd note that my experience is that some African Mahogany will tear out no matter what - whether I use a L-N BUS, a BD with a 20 degree back bevel, or like your experience, a scraper plane.

One thing that does help enormously in these situations is a quick wipe with denatured alcohol followed by planing - it makes a world of difference.

[Roger Benton]

One thing that does help enormously in these situations is a quick wipe with denatured alcohol followed by planing - it makes a world of difference.

this makes perfect sense! i use DA when planing end grain every time, never thought to try it on difficult face grain.

as far as getting an idea of the bu planes' abilities, i may just put a steep micro bevel on my 90-1/2 block plane and see what happens.

[Rick Erickson]

Roger, I have mine set as Matt does - 50-degree bevel on a 12-degree bed. I usually plane a 2-degree or so secondary and then add another degree or 2 tertiary (all done by hand so it isn't exact). It does quite well for me. I have gotten a few boards that don't behave but for the most part it works.

[Gary Rick]

The clerk at my local Woodcraft says they will be carrying Clifton planes soon. FWIW

[William Fretwell]

Have three Clifton’s, a pleasure to use. Yes they are heavy, but that helps through the cut. The blades are easy to sharpen and the chip breaker to blade is engineering perfection. My only gripe was the brass screws on the front knob was too domed and dug into my hand. I ground them down, no further issues. Yes I have LV BU planes but rarely use them.
Yes you can produce the same shavings with an old Bailey plane when tuned properly.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I have a #3 Clifton-one of favorite. About 15 years old now-superb iron.

[Jim Koepke]

The clerk at my local Woodcraft says they will be carrying Clifton planes soon. FWIW

There used to be a Woodcraft in Dublin, CA. They had a Clifton version of a Stanley #45 on display. This was about 20 years ago and to the best of my recollection it was priced in the $600 range.

jtk

[Jack Frederick]

Are the Clifton planes made by the same company in the same way, of the same quality as they were in ‘09? I do not know, but it seems a fair question. Pretty sure the LN’s are. I can’t criticize Clifton as I’ve never owned or worked with one. I don’t have a 4.5, but I do have a 4 LN in silicone bronze and it is fabulous. I prefer the bronze bodies where available.

[Tracy Phillips]

I bought a No. 5 last year and I really enjoy it. I just sharped the iron and the sole was spot on so I didn’t touch it. Very high quality tool.

[David Dalzell]

I have the LV bevel up smoother and an old Stanley #4 which I have fettled and installed a Hock Blade. I use them both for smoothing. The LV for larger pieces and the #4 Stanley for smaller pieces. Both seem to work equally well in most cases. If the wood if problematical I use the LV because I have additional high angle blades available. I have never used either the LN or the Clifton smoother.

[Steven Herbin]

I think LN is now making a 4 1/2 in bronze. However, it’s selling for $750 which is a bit steep. That price is a bit too high for me.

Living in southeast Florida EVERYTHING rusts except my LN #4 bronze, which I love. Right now I’m looking at selling my Stanley #4 1/2, 5 1/2 and 6 (all with Hock blades and CB’s) and getting a LN 5 1/2. In my experience the combination of heft and width make the the 5 1/2 a perfect plane for everything. My experience with LN has been fabulous. Product and aftermarket care, they are the best.