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John Noell
10-03-2009, 2:28 PM
We do laser cut jewelry and some people think "hand made" is better some how than what we do (although we spend at least 20x longer on the hand finishing part than the laser part). This picture is of 'hand made' earrings from Thailand. Funny how they have those black edges and scorch marks. Must have been somebody with hot hands making them.

Anthony Scira
10-03-2009, 2:52 PM
There is a new laser line by the Korean manufacturer "Hand". It was lasered and it is Hand Made.

Yeah that is laser work if I ever saw it.

Tim Bateson
10-03-2009, 3:12 PM
That's an example that shows a total lack of being hand made. They were too lazy to even clean up their work before posting a picture,

John Noell
10-03-2009, 3:16 PM
There is a new laser line by the Korean manufacturer "Hand". It was lasered and it is Hand Made. Doh!! Of course! Gotta get one of those for myself! :) :)

Dan Hintz
10-03-2009, 3:44 PM
During my last trip to the Bahamas about a year ago, there was a gentleman on the streets using a fine coping saw to cut out designs... very intricate designs... out of pewter spoons, silver dollars, etc. I estimate it took him several hours to cut out the larger designs, and he was selling his stuff for $30-$50. Tough to compete with that kind of pricing, and he did requests.

Frank Corker
10-03-2009, 4:33 PM
John the design in that one is nice, but the quality is not a patch on the stuff that you are doing, your stuff is leaps and bounds ahead of that stuff!

Lee DeRaud
10-03-2009, 6:00 PM
We do laser cut jewelry and some people think "hand made" is better some how than what we do (although we spend at least 20x longer on the hand finishing part than the laser part).Doesn't matter how much hand work you put in, you're gonna get some attitude from somebody who thinks you're "cheating" because you use a computer.
(Typically someone in the scrollsaw community who copies all of his designs from books, but there ya go.)

Dee Gallo
10-03-2009, 7:10 PM
So straighten me out here: is a scroll saw considered cheating on a coping saw? Do they think that shopbot 3D is cheating on electric gouges which are cheating on gouge and hammer which is cheating on a pocket knife?

Is an ROSander cheating on a piece of sandpaper wrapped around a piece of wood which is cheating on scraping with a piece of glass?

Why are some electrical devices okay and others not? Using a router with a purchased template is okay, but using a computer is bad? How do they think they make those templates?

At what point does one technology become NOT cheating? Must someone invent a molecular reorganizer to make the laser acceptable? Sheesh.

My opinion (OWIAETH) is that a tool is only as good as the person using it and it's just as likely to make a mess as a masterpiece. Cheating to me is when you get someone else to do your work or you copy their work exactly without any thought of your own.

:) dee

David Fairfield
10-03-2009, 7:30 PM
"Hand Made" stuff is evil, its all made by prison laborers and children in sweatshops! Lots of material is lost to waste! Laser goods are humane and eco friendly! :)

Dave

Lee DeRaud
10-03-2009, 7:31 PM
Cheating to me is when you get someone else to do your work or you copy their work exactly without any thought of your own.I had a scrollsaw guy practically frothing at the mouth when I said something to that effect...
and then asked him where he got his designs (mostly Disney characters :eek:).

Lee DeRaud
10-03-2009, 7:34 PM
"Hand Made" stuff is evil, its all made by prison laborers and children in sweatshops! Lots of material is lost to waste! Laser goods are humane and eco friendly! :)Orphaned photons, enslaved to do my bidding, forced to march in lockstep, with no pay or benefits...
as Mr. Burns would say, "Excellent!" (insert evil laugh sound-effect here)

John Noell
10-03-2009, 11:02 PM
Is an ROSander cheating on a piece of sandpaper wrapped around a piece of wood which is cheating on scraping with a piece of glass? Yes to all but since glass is almost always machine made, it is cheating on scraping with your teeth and fingernails.

John Noell
10-03-2009, 11:46 PM
With all due respect to the scrollsaw folks, I don't think you CAN do this kind of work without a tool like the laser. This earring is only about 30mm/1" high. People seem to think they are pretty, and at least in coconut shell, I don't know how you could do it "by hand."

John Barton
10-04-2009, 1:50 AM
With all due respect to the scrollsaw folks, I don't think you CAN do this kind of work without a tool like the laser. This earring is only about 30mm/1" high. People seem to think they are pretty, and at least in coconut shell, I don't know how you could do it "by hand."

I am pretty sure someone could do that with a dremel "by hand".

But you are right. Consumers and some producers seem to think that "made by hand" is somehow "the best". On the consumer side they have no clue how something was really done unless they stood over the person doing it. On the producer side it's often either people who can't afford to get the right machines or people who use tools and jigs to do the same thing we do with a better and faster tool and call it "made by hand".

This debate rages all the time on the billiards forum over pool cues and inlays done using a CNC vs. ones made with a pantograph. You know those pantographs that use templates made by CNC routers????? :-)

On the leather worker forum it comes up all the time as well.

Frankly, I just market my products based on their quality with no explanation of how they were made unless it adds to the description for some important reason. For example one case we make is only technically possible IF the last line is sewn by hand. For this reason no competitor will even try it and they use far easier methods to finish their cases.

But my competitors will use the "hand made" description all the time even though they use sewing machines, rivet setters, laser engraving, and factory produced tubes. I can't stand it. But it's life and I realized last night after a conversation with a customer that my customers aren't really paying for how it's made - they are paying for the experience and don't really care HOW the product gets done as long as it's done how they want it done and is well made. But they will even settle for less than well made if the experience is good enough.

John Barton
10-04-2009, 1:58 AM
We do laser cut jewelry and some people think "hand made" is better some how than what we do (although we spend at least 20x longer on the hand finishing part than the laser part). This picture is of 'hand made' earrings from Thailand. Funny how they have those black edges and scorch marks. Must have been somebody with hot hands making them.

You want a better one? This is how one of our competitors describes their cues with laser engraved designs;

"Each XXXX cue features leather wraps, steel joints and butt caps and unique designs branded into the butt of the cue with a unique blow torch branding technique."

Right......... someone with a blow torch is precisely burning these patterns at depth into wood and they are so good that each one comes out the exact same each time.

For the record - I have watched these cues being made. They are done on Universal 660 lasers with dual rotaries.

http://www.pooldawg.com/images/cache/ol12250x150-18277.jpg

David Fairfield
10-04-2009, 9:01 AM
I think most of us laser operators would find it impossible to do what what we do without hands.

Tim Bateson
10-04-2009, 10:19 AM
Lasers are too computerized with no human intervention. Mine will design it’s own pattern, sand the wood, vector cut & raster precise detail, re-sand, stain and apply finish, package it, bill the customer & ship the product while I read the morning paper. Doesn’t your laser do that?

Lee DeRaud
10-04-2009, 10:48 AM
Consumers and some producers seem to think that "made by hand" is somehow "the best".There's an effect in play that I call "virtue through tedium", as if arthritis and eyestrain is essential to the production of "true art".

I find it ironic that in extremely high-tech industries, there is a strong trend toward raising 'process' to the level of a religion. In both cases, the path taken ends up being more important than the destination.

Lee DeRaud
10-04-2009, 10:51 AM
Lasers are too computerized with no human intervention. Mine will design it’s own pattern, sand the wood, vector cut & raster precise detail, re-sand, stain and apply finish, package it, bill the customer & ship the product while I read the morning paper. Doesn’t your laser do that?Nah, I was too cheap to buy all the options.

Dan Hintz
10-04-2009, 11:35 AM
With all due respect to the scrollsaw folks, I don't think you CAN do this kind of work without a tool like the laser. This earring is only about 30mm/1" high. People seem to think they are pretty, and at least in coconut shell, I don't know how you could do it "by hand."
John,

See my previous post about the guy in the Bahamas...

Dee Gallo
10-04-2009, 11:40 AM
As a person who spent 50 years doing things the hard way (hand painting, hand carving, hand engraving, hand lettering, hand sanding, hand polishing, etc.) I can tell you it's highly over rated. In the days before electric tools, it was impressive to be able to make something "by hand", meaning with hand held tools. Yes there is satisfaction to hand made objects, but as a money making business, there is little satisfaction. While people "value" the concept of hand made, they do not want to pay for the hours it takes to make something by hand nor for the years of training required. Somehow, they are fine paying a plumber (fill in # of $$) to show up and then more $$ to do a job, but feel you as a skilled artisan should work for nothing. I think they should be at least equal. The same goes for teaching. You have to get a Master's degree (and lots of debt) just to start your first job and somehow you're overpaid, so says the factory line worker making more per hour than a teacher.

Now we have electronic tools and lasers. People are impressed by septic tank installers who use "lasers" and pay big bucks there for nothing more than a good level. I have come to the conclusion that the less your customers know about your process the better. Even as a mural painter, I find people thinking it is "easy" for you if you can paint as they watch. How they can justify this and in the next moment be impressed by a golfer who "makes it look easy" amazes me.

Okay, that's more than two cents worth, :) dee

David Fairfield
10-04-2009, 12:47 PM
The only time the L word seems to work to advantage is when precision and repeatability is an asset to the finished product. Dee has it right, usually the less the customer knows about how you do what you do, the better.

Martin Boekers
10-04-2009, 1:19 PM
You right Dee!

I'm sure every era went through this when "new" technologies came along.

Not since early man have things actually been hand made.

Early man farmed, grew, harvested or killed his materials himself.

I don't know many scroll sawers (sorry scroll saw guys and gals your group is one we can relate to) that actually grew the tree finished the wood, made the blades for cutting and then crafted the final piece. We do have some scroll sawers on base that have peddle powered saws, similar to a stationary excersize bike that peddling provides the blade movement. (It's a good thing we don't have to peddle power our lasers!):D

Photography was considered a novelty as much as digital photography is today.

Instead of hand made which at a minimum is a misnomer, I go with
"Hand Crafted"

Just some thoughts,

Marty

Guy Mathews
10-04-2009, 1:41 PM
During my last trip to the Bahamas about a year ago, there was a gentleman on the streets using a fine coping saw to cut out designs... very intricate designs... out of pewter spoons, silver dollars, etc. I estimate it took him several hours to cut out the larger designs, and he was selling his stuff for $30-$50. Tough to compete with that kind of pricing, and he did requests.

While my wife and I were in Cancun 2 years ago, we saw his cousin doing the same thing on coins. He had a whole bunch that were on display. He was actually taking request as well. He made a Broken Heart penadant with a couples intials in a quarter. When finished, he had two pieces that fit together perfectly from the same quarter. It took him about 20 minutes total and he only charged the guy 20 bucks. My wife and I were so amazed we searched the internet and finally found the tools he was using. An ebay search of "Jewelers Saw" will put you in the right direction. He also had a clamp that he attached to the table. There was a small pair of vise grips welded to the clamp with a rubber tip.

If the lasers can cut through coins it is just a matter of time before these things are everywhere.

If you Google Coin Cutting you will find links like this one.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/shoporegon/2009/01/locally_cut_coin_pendants_on_e.html

I get the same huff from people with my CNC machines and laser scanner. I can reproduce just about any piece of furniture 1 time or 1,000 times and the only time people care is when our hand carver puts the finishing touches on stuff. I'm just the computer geek!

Dee, I liked your perspective on the whole hand made thing. It reminds me of the debate between film and digital cameras! If you really want to get people fighting in a photo forum, just post this question, "Which is better, Canon or Nikon?" Or, "will digital replace film?" People wiil come to cyberblows in minutes over these!:D

Guy

John Noell
10-04-2009, 3:09 PM
John,

See my previous post about the guy in the Bahamas... Yes but the detail in the butterfly (not really shown by the picture) has holes that are less than 0.5mm. (You can barely see through them - and only against light.) That would take a VERY small scroll sawblade - or Dremel bit. Personally, I've never seen quite that level of detail achieved mechanically.

Mike Chance in Iowa
10-04-2009, 3:43 PM
"By hand" is changing. For example, writing a letter by hand has changed dramatically since the quill. In future generations, cursive handwriting will become a rare quality. Think of all the gadgets kids use these days to communicate. The only time they actually write (cursive or print) is to jot down quick notes.

Michael Hunter
10-05-2009, 5:59 AM
In the UK there is a "Craft and Design Council" which showcases craft and helps would-be crafters into the "trade" (with some money available for grants etc.).

Their handbook is quite enlightening : they require that -

1 The design is original.
2 The designer supervises all stages of manufacture.
3 The designer performs and/or supervises the final assembly of the piece.

They specifically state that the manufacturing can be performed by ANYBODY, including non-"craft" commercial companies.


Unfortunately, the general public doesn't see craft that way .....

Mark Ross
10-05-2009, 9:24 AM
Then there is the artist that uses a dremel and cuts very intricate designs into egg shells. Anyone here with a rotary wanna empty and dry and eggshell and give it a shot?

Here's a link...

http://theeggshellsculptor.com/

Maybe we can sell 'em on ebay (LOL).

Guy Mathews
10-05-2009, 11:06 AM
Then there is the artist that uses a dremel and cuts very intricate designs into egg shells. Anyone here with a rotary wanna empty and dry and eggshell and give it a shot?

Here's a link...

http://theeggshellsculptor.com/

Maybe we can sell 'em on ebay (LOL).

Mark,

I'll add it to my list of things to do before I die. I am doing a pumpkin this weekend for a quick Halloween Video. Egg shells on a CNC 4th Axis? If you know anything about me, you know I gotta try it!!!!

32nd inch ball mills... get ready to rock!!!!

Jim Beachler
10-05-2009, 6:00 PM
I had a judge at one of the art shows ask how I did my work. (I use CNC router and laser) Explained that I cut and engraved the wood. She told me that since it is obvious to her that I use a CNC router and laser, that it is not hand crafted. They were ready to throw me out of the show.

I had a discussion with the people who run the show. I explained that because I cut with a CNC router and not a table or band saw, what is the difference. We are both cutting our own designs out of wood. Are you going to penalize me because I figured out a quicker way to do the work? Their response was that CNC routers and lasers were not standard woodworking equipment. I asked them if their kitchen cabinets were made from wood? They said yes. Well then, those are cut with a CNC machine. As far as lasers, they are used in almost aspects of woodworking.

Long story short, I got to stay and make my money.
PS: I did get invited back the next year as well.

Larry Bratton
10-05-2009, 6:33 PM
My stuff is handmade..I used the computer keyboard and a tablet with my hands to make it, I scratched my head a lot with my hands trying to figure out how to create it, I handled the material it was made from with my hands, I put it in the laser, I sent the work to the laser with a mouse in my hand, I took it out with my hands, packaged it up with them..who says it's not HANDMADE???? shhheeesh

Guy Mathews
10-05-2009, 6:50 PM
I agree with you Jim and I am glad you stuck to your guns at that show. People who do not use CNC or Lasers Engravers do not understand the amount of thought and computer work that actually goes into producing a piece. It is actually more in my opinion then a traditional woodworker, (what is traditional?) who is doing the same thing. For example, a woodworker lifts the router he is using over a clamp and does not even really think about it. He just automatically knows that at each clamp he has to lift his router. Do you have a CNC machine that spots the clamps and raises the router over them to avoid breaking the bit or damaging the router?

People who are working with computers in the woodshop are cutting edge, pun intended! While it may be a machine that produces our work, it is the intellect, past experience, creativity and our courage to try something new that actually creates the information that is needed by the machine to make the product. We put the human element into a CNC machine, just as a woodworker puts the human element into a bandsaw.

The eggshell challenge for me is one of particular interest. I figured out already that I will have to position the egg in such a way on my rotary axis so as to cut the desired design that I have layed out in the computer on the scanned egg. If I am off by more than half the thickness of the shell, the project will be scrambled. Even being less than half off, still will leave a lot of room for error. Since each egg is essentially different in size and shape, even the same design would be of one of a kind because of the shape of each egg.

Hand made? I don't think so. "Brain made" is what they should be calling our work!!!!

John Barton
10-06-2009, 12:53 AM
Then there is the artist that uses a dremel and cuts very intricate designs into egg shells. Anyone here with a rotary wanna empty and dry and eggshell and give it a shot?

Here's a link...

http://theeggshellsculptor.com/

Maybe we can sell 'em on ebay (LOL).

This is what the guy says on his website AFTER he makes it clear that he doesn't use a laser.

"Way back in the 18th century, a French singer perfectly expressed what it is that I do as I pour my soul into my eggshells. He said, "The object of art is to crystallize emotion into thought, and then fix it in form." That is an uncanny description of the process I go through."

Does anyone here go through any different process to turn your thoughts into real things?

What about the eggshell people who don't use dremels? Surely there is someone out there who uses needles or sharp rocks?

Why do these people care so much about how something was created - look at the object - does it have value, meaning, quality?

No one can create ANYTHING on a laser without learning how to use it first. The laser sits there and does nothing until a human directs it. Jeez, when I think of all the material I have wasted because I, the human, made a mistake and either told the laser the wrong thing or positioned my stuff wrong.

At these art shows there are always artists who sell prints of their work. Why is this accepted but a person who uses a CNC or a Laser is somehow looked down upon?

I guarantee that there are people out there who are using the laser to create pure art - things with no function - I don't mean jewelry. I mean using all the capabilities of the laser to create sculpture, 3-d paintings etc.... I seem to remember that at the Cherry Creek arts festival on year there was a guy who made really intricate shadowboxes wit scenes in them, lots and lots of layers and depth - they were very freaking cool and creative. I didn't have a laser then but thinking back on it I bet dollars to donuts that he used a laser to cut those intricate parts. And Cherry Creek arts festival in Denver is very prestigious and hard to get into.

I use the laser to create one of a kind pockets and parts for my cases. It allows me to play and experiment as much as I want to on cardboard without the tedium of using a printer, scissors and tape.

Brain made is right - I plan to start using this term as much as possible!

Tim Bateson
10-06-2009, 7:56 AM
Those here that have produced such art on a laser knows it's for their own enjoyment or as a gift. Customers just don't see the artistic value. You'll get a lot of admiration, and pats on the back, but no $$$.

David Fairfield
10-06-2009, 8:50 AM
Actually, I've had some success selling intricate nick nacks made on the laser. Obviously they have to be made relatively quickly and look high quality. The less obvious thing is promotion. I don't really enjoy being a salesman, but the stuff doesn't alway sell itself, so sometimes I push a little.

One really good market for this stuff is corporate giveaways, especially around the holidays. I've found smaller local companies to be excellent and reliable customers.

I always keep a sample keychain or whatever handy to show people what I do, drummed up some good business that way!

Dave

Bill Cunningham
10-06-2009, 11:54 PM
If that guy took 20 minutes to cut a intricate shape into a quarter with a hand held jewelers saw , and only charged $20.00 for his work, he seems to be on the right track.. How many here, have a $20,000.00 laser and charge $1.00 a minute for laser work? Thats 60.00 an hour, pretty good living for Cancun, and I bet he does it a full 8 hours a day.. Makes you wonder who came up with only a $1.00 a minute 'guideline' laser charge 'standard' eh!:cool:

John Noell
10-07-2009, 1:19 AM
It reminds me of the debate between film and digital cameras! With 25+ megapixels DSLRs, still picture film is dead. And, if you haven't heard already, there is a new "video" camera (all digital) that is replacing film cameras for big ticket movie productions. For many years the movie industry has said that 'video' cannot replace film but when they started doing blind comparison with the new RED camera, it came out as more film-like than film. Faster, cheaper, more flexible. In five years I doubt any big ticket productions will actually use film. But I expect the debate about it will last a lot longer than that.

Rodne Gold
10-07-2009, 1:36 AM
I think in this modern age some of us slightly older folk (im 50) are overwhelmed by technology and hanker after the "old days" when things were simpler... like "hand made"
I have an overhaulin' business and there is a big demand for 60's and 70's muscle , regardless of the fact that a modern compact car will mostly outperform em. Even the youngsters these days appreciate retro...
So in essence I think the apprecaition and desire for actual hand made stuff is a reaction to the electronic age..

John Barton
10-07-2009, 2:28 AM
We are busy making a little Celtic Knot embossing plate for a customer's case. My wife just peeled the tape off of the inner parts on one of the rejected pieces of acrylic. She went and drilled a hole in it - strung a piece of leather through it and made a pretty little pendant.

It made her smile. That's art. I don't care how it's made. She smiles, it's art.

Dan Hintz
10-07-2009, 6:17 AM
With 25+ megapixels DSLRs, still picture film is dead.
Check out the Hasselblad H4D-60... 60Mpixels... now that's a beast!

Tim Bateson
10-07-2009, 7:37 AM
Check out the Hasselblad H4D-60... 60Mpixels... now that's a beast!
Hmmm there's one I don't own. Maybe with all this money I'm making on my "hand made" laser products, I'll buy one. At $36,0000, I should be able to pay it off in maybe 50 years! :eek:

Oh... Is that camera "hand made" too?

Dan Hintz
10-07-2009, 8:19 AM
Oh... Is that camera "hand made" too?
I'm sure it was "hand-assembled" :D

Jeff Mohr
10-07-2009, 8:36 AM
I think what some of you are forgetting is that there is a portion of the laser people who buy bulk boxes (or insert thing here) and merely laser a picture or word on the top and then sell it as hand made. I'm not buying the hand made part there. For what it is worth, I'd complain about a marquetry person doing the same thing.

In my opinion, however, the person who makes the box and then carves/inlays the top has more of a right to call it hand made than the bulk purchaser or the add-on people.

David Fairfield
10-07-2009, 9:38 AM
Nostalgia for simpler times is an ever changing concept. Eventually people will consider what we do a hand craft. By then, most will have a replicator hooked up to their computer that reacts to a voice command to rearrange molecules into any product imagined or desired. That's what some people think we do now, when you tell 'em you made it on a laser. :rolleyes:

Dave

PS Hey Peck, I asked my Laser for a cheeseburger and a Coke, and nothing happened! :mad:

Dan Hintz
10-07-2009, 9:43 AM
Hey Peck, I asked my Laser for a cheeseburger and a Coke, and nothing happened! :mad:
The problem is obvious... you forgot to say "please".






I was going to say because it's not a ULS machine, but figured that wouldn't be taken as a joke ;-)

John Barton
10-07-2009, 1:16 PM
I think what some of you are forgetting is that there is a portion of the laser people who buy bulk boxes (or insert thing here) and merely laser a picture or word on the top and then sell it as hand made. I'm not buying the hand made part there. For what it is worth, I'd complain about a marquetry person doing the same thing.

In my opinion, however, the person who makes the box and then carves/inlays the top has more of a right to call it hand made than the bulk purchaser or the add-on people.

True but I don't think any of us are forgetting that. We know that the folks who misrepresent pre-made mass production items with laser engraved personalization are part of the problem.

In international shipping there are designations that you use to describe how much of the work was done where. For example if I want to ship my product to another country and have it carved and then shipped back to me I have to fill out the paperwork that indicates it will be "embellished". Thus there are no import duties on the product when it goes to the country it's going to. On the export though there will likely be a duty on the cost of the work done. As well as a duty on the import also on the cost of the embellishing. What does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Nothing except to illustrate that under the law governing customs there are very exact descriptions for how and where products are made.

It's kind of sad that we do live in a world where so many people can get away with marketing deception and ruin it for those of us who are trying hard to present our products as just good products.

For years I had to fight against knockoffs of my work with the cheap knockoffs being sold as "Hand Made Genuine Leather" when in fact they were assembly line crap covered with the leather industry's equivalent of plywood - ground up leather bits and glue pressed into sheets with a thin plastic surface. :-(

Now, one of my competitors loves to tout that his cases are the "Choice of Champions" - of course he doesn't disclose on his website that he gives away the cases to all these players - easy choice when it's free. I wish the laser manufacturers would adopt a policy of giving away lasers just so they could claim that their product is the "choice" of laser professionals.

Dan Hintz
10-07-2009, 1:48 PM
Now, one of my competitors loves to tout that his cases are the "Choice of Champions" - of course he doesn't disclose on his website that he gives away the cases to all these players - easy choice when it's free.
Nothing new there... ever notice how it's always 9 out of 10 doctors who choose a particular medication? Pick a medication, any medication, and it's the same number... even though there may be 10 different brands of aspirin, 9 out of 10 always prescribe <Insert favorite brand here>. It's not a lie, it's marketing. They give out free samples to 9 doctors and then poll 10 on what they're handing out to patients (who receive them as freebies). They could obviously do this to all 10 doctors, but then the numbers would appear fixed... marketing wants you to think it's the choice of as many as possible without setting off your BS detector.

It may not be accurate to the real world, but as long as it sounds good without being too good, it tempts people (and therefore does its job). I'd gladly give away some of my work so I could say the same thing. Even when you know the truth, it still gives people a feeling of comfort (unless you're a real pessimist like me and scowl at almost every obviously tainted claim).

John Noell
10-07-2009, 2:56 PM
I started this thread because I saw people selling laser-cut earrings as "hand-made" and felt that was not accurate. (I do not claim mine to be such.) Hand-made" is a muddy term and does not capture the complexity of creating works in a modern age. But, to me, the essence of "hand-made" is that someone's hand guided the tool(s) used to create the image or shape the material. Personally, I am not physically able to do that without assistive devices (e.g., computer to draw and printer or laser to produce the physical result). Despite what I see in my "mind's eye", I will never have the physical skills required to guide a paintbrush on canvas exactly where I want it, or precisely guide a chisel through wood. I would like to think I do make some "art" -- and that it is not inherently less valuable because I used a pointing device (mouse) to nudge my lines into place. Maybe having the ability to undo my mistakes and re-do the lines lowers the stakes so far that it is no longer worthy of admiration. Or maybe the finished product is good enough to stand on its own merits, hand-made or not. Whether or not it is "fair" or reasonable (or even really possible) to separate "hand-made" from not hand-made, people will continue to do it (or think they can do it). I suspect the best we can hope for is that when someone insists on "hand-made" that they explain precisely what they mean, such as "No tools were used, only the hands (i.e., fingers, palms, and backs of hands)." Or, "No electrical tools were used." Or, "Individually produced works displaying exceptional creativity and/or skills."

Dee Gallo
10-07-2009, 5:07 PM
John,

I disagree slightly with you - although I spent many years developing skills and revere the masters of traditional art, I feel that each generation brings its own evolution to the arts. The master painters like Vermeer were highly respected for their ability to make their own paints which in turn made their paintings better. They invented tools like the drawing grid, which is not the same as freehand drawing, but still require hand drawing. Handtools have evolved from sharpened rocks to today's laser - It just takes a different set of skills to create the work. Not better or worse... different.

Where I agree with you is when someone uses the computer as a drawing crutch (ie: can't draw without it) and their work always looks it to the trained eye because you can always spot clipart or bad design.

What I believe is that SOME laser users have developed the eye, the skill and the know-how to create exceptional pieces, some of which are also functional but still beautifully done and you have to admire the work, much as you would admire an architect's building.

I've said it before, the laser is only another tool. It cannot exist in a vacuum without other skills.

:) dee

Randy Digby
10-07-2009, 5:28 PM
Well put Dee.

The thread brings to mind the opening of a local Ace Hardware store last spring, a couple of miles from my house. There was an artist out front carving tree trunks with a chain saw. I've also seen a lot of this type art in the Smoky Mountains along some very neat art & craft routes. Is the chainsaw carving hammer and chisel? Certailnly not. Does it require a separate skill set? Absolutely. Is it not hand made because of the smell of gasoline in the air as the artist works? The chainsaw adds a dimension to the art because of both the flexibility and the restrictions of the tool.

A lot of people here have displayed some very beautiful crafts and works of art on this forum, some that could be duplicated without using a powered tool of any sort, and others that would be pratically impossible to duplicate without modern computerized equipment. To say that their work does not "belong" because of their use of technology? I couldn't do that.

Let's leave it up to the customer. Let's let all craftsman and crafts compete and let the customer tell us what he likes as he votes with his money.

Doug Griffith
10-07-2009, 6:00 PM
In my opinion, from a consumer's standpoint, "hand made" is a story that makes them feel more interesting as a person. Kind of like original art compared to a print. Both are the same image and invoke the same visual feelings but the original art has history and emotions attached to it.

It is a much better story thinking that an artisan whittled away at something with his bare, bleeding hands than a person pressing a button on a laser while eating a sandwich.

I also think that "hand made" equals "no two are alike". Humans are imperfect, machines are not (so consumers think) and can create exact duplicates (with another press of the button). The consumer adds this to their story.

I don't think it's the tool used for manufacture but the automation that's the culprit.

I bet there would be far more respect for the work if the laser was a hand held unit guided by the operators imperfect human hand.

Scott Shepherd
10-07-2009, 6:30 PM
Is it really about hand made, or is it about mass produced? I think you could certainly do something really creative, as a one off, on the laser, and sell that as unique and demand higher prices, as opposed to sitting out a shelf with 100 of the same thing, and then boxes on the floor behind you that note there are 1000's more where that came from.

That's what I think cheapens the perceived value a lot more than whether it's hand made or not. I think people are more interested in unique than hand made. Just my opinion.

Dee Gallo
10-07-2009, 6:30 PM
I bet there would be far more respect for the work if the laser was a hand held unit guided by the operators imperfect human hand.

I agree with you there, Doug - you can also add the fact that people who have tried to use a tool and found it too hard to master have more respect for those who are good at it. Not many people have even seen a laser and they don't have a clue as to what a computer is really capable of or how to do it. The majority of people who "use" a computer at work are actually data entry people who don't know how to do anything but fill in a blank. The rest of them surf the internet or email, which is not the same as running a program.

:) dee

Doug Griffith
10-07-2009, 6:54 PM
The rest of them surf the internet or email, which is not the same as running a program.

You mean creating something from nothing by taking a concept in your head and using the tools in front of you (in this case a computer and a laser) to materialize that concept into a tangible item. When we purchased our equipment, it didn't come with a magic "create a product" button.

John Barton
10-07-2009, 10:25 PM
I started this thread because I saw people selling laser-cut earrings as "hand-made" and felt that was not accurate. (I do not claim mine to be such.) Hand-made" is a muddy term and does not capture the complexity of creating works in a modern age. But, to me, the essence of "hand-made" is that someone's hand guided the tool(s) used to create the image or shape the material. Personally, I am not physically able to do that without assistive devices (e.g., computer to draw and printer or laser to produce the physical result). Despite what I see in my "mind's eye", I will never have the physical skills required to guide a paintbrush on canvas exactly where I want it, or precisely guide a chisel through wood. I would like to think I do make some "art" -- and that it is not inherently less valuable because I used a pointing device (mouse) to nudge my lines into place. Maybe having the ability to undo my mistakes and re-do the lines lowers the stakes so far that it is no longer worthy of admiration. Or maybe the finished product is good enough to stand on its own merits, hand-made or not. Whether or not it is "fair" or reasonable (or even really possible) to separate "hand-made" from not hand-made, people will continue to do it (or think they can do it). I suspect the best we can hope for is that when someone insists on "hand-made" that they explain precisely what they mean, such as "No tools were used, only the hands (i.e., fingers, palms, and backs of hands)." Or, "No electrical tools were used." Or, "Individually produced works displaying exceptional creativity and/or skills."

As long as "Marketing" exists then this debate will never stop. Some companies and individuals will stretch the truth as far as they can get away with or outright lie.

The whole designation "Hand-Made" should just be banned from marketing. Not because something could not be substantially or wholly made "by hand" but because it truly adds NO VALUE to the product except as an emotional trigger.

I used to make my cases in Germany and later moved the production to the Czech Republic.

I never advertised "made in Germany". People took to calling them German cases as equivocating them to BMW and Mercedes. Even after I explained to people and dealers that I did not want the cases sold as "GERMAN QUALITY" and the like they still did it.

The point being that it IS unfair trade practice when someone outright lies about their product is made in order to influence the consumer into believing that this designation conveys a higher value, it's probably also illegal.

I think that the only way for the little guy to fight this unfairness is to educate the consumer. Put up an essay on your site, blog, or hand out flyers at events which explain the difference.

Now, if there is a guy cutting earrings out of coconut shells on the beach using a tiny scroll saw vs. a guy doing the same thing on the boardwalk with his laser then I personally am going to treasure the ones the guy with the scroll saw is doing simply because each one will be unique even if he is using a template. Now if the laser guy is spending some time with the customer and playing around with the file to make each one unique then that's different for me and I would treasure both equally.

Even though I fully understand all that goes into doing the initial design I think we all understand that a cookie cutter is still a cookie cutter even when it's the size of a desk.

I have made unique parts for cases that most likely will never be made again. Parts I spent days designing and cutting and testing. However IF I ever did want to do something similar then I have a head start on the process. That's where the laser comes in for me.

I am sure that I could take a laser and figure out a way to make unique art that would sell. However if I were an actual artist then I could probably make art that would inspire.

John Barton
10-07-2009, 11:39 PM
Is it really about hand made, or is it about mass produced? I think you could certainly do something really creative, as a one off, on the laser, and sell that as unique and demand higher prices, as opposed to sitting out a shelf with 100 of the same thing, and then boxes on the floor behind you that note there are 1000's more where that came from.

That's what I think cheapens the perceived value a lot more than whether it's hand made or not. I think people are more interested in unique than hand made. Just my opinion.

I agree but in a world where people see two similar items then the one which is touted as "hand made" unfortunately seems to have a higher perceived value.

For me I don't care about hand made unless I am standing there watching the person make it by hand. Otherwise it's just marketingspeak to my ears. I am not above using it but when I do then it means we do something that cannot be done by using a machine.

John Noell
10-08-2009, 1:25 AM
Where I agree with you is when someone uses the computer as a drawing crutch (ie: can't draw without it) and their work always looks it to the trained eye because you can always spot clipart or bad design. I am not too sure where we disagree. But as someone who cannot draw by hand (my eye sees where the line should go but my hands cannot get it there) I may be a bit sensitive. However, I hope that the absence of any clipart and years studying art and design compensate somewhat -- and that the trained eye will not see through me too quickly. :)

Michael Hunter
10-08-2009, 6:19 AM
In the Corel thread recently we had the "Perfectify" button concept.
Now Doug has come up with the "Create Product" button.

I hope that Peck is paying attention - I want these buttons on my nex Epilog!

Lee DeRaud
10-08-2009, 11:11 AM
In the Corel thread recently we had the "Perfectify" button concept.
Now Doug has come up with the "Create Product" button.Nothing new, just a bit of semantics, innit? If you push the 'perfectify' button on a blank page...

Doug Griffith
10-08-2009, 11:24 AM
Nothing new, just a bit of semantics, innit? If you push the 'perfectify' button on a blank page...

My button's on the laser itself. No need for Corel or even a computer!

Lee DeRaud
10-08-2009, 11:33 AM
My button's on the laser itself. No need for Corel or even a computer!So...what happens if you push it before you load any material into the laser?:cool:

(Note: rifts in the space-time continuum are a Bad Thing.:eek:)

Doug Griffith
10-08-2009, 11:44 AM
So...what happens if you push it before you load any material into the laser?:cool:

(Note: rifts in the space-time continuum are a Bad Thing.:eek:)

Hmmm. The beam would hit itself and turn the laser into a product. The last thing we want is a product capable of making another product all by itself. The movie Terminator comes to mind.

Dan Hintz
10-08-2009, 2:23 PM
(Note: rifts in the space-time continuum are a Bad Thing.:eek:)
As I've always said... rifts happen :p