Dowels, Krenov and new FWW

[Steve Rozmiarek]

The thread on the new FWW issue started an offshoot of a debate, and I think it deserves it's own thread.

The question, on the Krenov cabinet featured in the magazine, and maybe all of them for all I know, the sides of the carcass where joined to the top and bottom with a bunch of dowels. To me, this is counter intuitive to what I've picked up over the years, and is not something that was done until fairly recently (last 100 years). I've taught myself that one of the dovetail methods are best for that joint, which is what I do. I'm curious about your take on it.

I know there are a bunch of different ways to build anything, but assuming that you want to build the best quality heirloom possible, are dowels acceptible for this joint?

[lowell holmes]

Read the book "The Fine Art of Cabinet Making" by James Krenov. You will find he shows how to make dovetailed joints as well as doweled joints. He also explains why he uses the different joints.
I assume his work did produce best quality heirloom pieces.
I feel that a complete woodworker (I don't fit that description) will be able to execute any joint that is required.
Krenov's work and The College of the Redwoods are legendary. If he said doweled joints are good for certain applications, I accept it.
We lost Maloof and Krenov in the same year. :(

[David DeCristoforo]

Krenov had his own ideas about everything. I don't think there is (was) ever a woodworker who elicited such strongly contrasting opinions as JK. People seem to be at one extreme or the other with very little "middle ground". They either almost religiously worship him and his work or shrug their shoulders and walk away. There can be no question that JK's approach and work were unique and he has a very devoted following.

I was almost shocked, after years of seeing pictures of Krenov pieces, to actually see one "in the flesh" and realize the scale of them. They seemed more like models to me. Some of his showcase cabinets are only four feet tall or a bit over and not very deep either. This (IMMHO) seriously limits their actual usefulness for much beyond housing very small items. I can tell you this much. If you speak ill of JK in the presence of any of his "acolytes", you might want to be sure you are wearing your good running shoes....

As to the wisdom of using dowels to join a solid wood top to solid wood sides, I would agree with the idea that it might not be the "best" way. But JK did use a lot of dowels, typically spaced only an inch or so apart and I have never seen (or heard of) a Krenov piece coming apart. I have a couple of cabinets that were built many years ago using this method and they have held up well.

[Jeff Willard]

Remember that Krenov wasn't opposed to newer methods of working, if they produced the desired result. He was known to use a number of electrically powered tools, bandsaw, table saw, jointer, even a :eek:-router. If the desired result could only be achieved, or was better met with handtools, he went that way. If dowels meet the criteria for the joint (strength,durability, what have you), then why not? I like dovetails as much as the next guy, but admit that they don't always fit the bill. And I agree that dowels are often associated with some pretty cheesy furniture, but so is veneering-and veneering is also associated with some of the most gorgeous high-end furniture I have ever seen. Truth is that dowels can produce pretty solid joinery, and can be very time and labor efficient.

This kind of reminds me of the Indian that was carving a totem pole with a chainsaw. An observer exclaimed that "your grandfather never would have used one of those!". To which the Indian replied "he would have if he had one!".

[Cody Colston]

I've never seen one of Krenov's cabinets "in the flesh" but in an interview with David Marks that I recorded on DVR, Krenov shows him his shop and states that most all of his pieces are small because his shop was small...even going back to his years in Sweden.

Krenov was unique; in his life, in his love affair with wood and in his methods. He was also trained and skilled in traditional methods and sat at the very pinnacle of woodworking success. Like Lowell, if he said that dowels were a good joint for that application, I have to believe him.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Like Lowell, if he said that dowels were a good joint for that application, I have to believe him.


Not picking on you Cody, but I'd like to use that perspective to ask something. If JK did it wrong, does it make it right?

I agree that on the cabinet in the FWW article, dowels are probably going to last eons. That being said, FWW put it something like the doweled construction speeds dry fit. Can't it be understood that because the article was not just about that cabinet, that FWW was implying that dowels fit other unspecified carcass work better too?

I have to disagree with that idea. Dovetails are stonger becase they are not "levering" the end grain like dowels or even short tenons would be in that instance. Quite frankly, I think its a step away from quality to accept the inherent limitations of strength that the dowel joint used in that application brings.

Now I'm sure that David's observations of the Krenov acolytes will be manifested on me...

[Jeff Willard]

Now I'm sure that David's observations of the Krenov acolytes will be manifested on me...

:D:D:D


Wouldn't a dowel be considered just a variation of the mortise and tenon? A type of loose tenon? Would a traditional M&T be suitable in that application? Even the dovetail is considered by many to be a variation on the M&T.

Somebody had to be the first to use a dovetail. I'm sure at the time it had it's detractors also. Look where it is today.

"Different people, different ways."-James Krenov

FWIW, I don't know that I would be considered a Krenov "acolyte". While I consider him to be very influential and inspirational, and I greatly admire much of his work, some of it just doesn't do it for me-at all. But I do feel that the craft woodworking world is better because of him, and poorer without him. Much the same with Maloof and Nakashima.

[Phil Thien]

If you look at some of the pieces he made, specifically the carcase where he often used dowels, a dovetail wouldn't have worked.

Here, look at these:

http://jameskrenov.com/furniture.htm

If you also look at the way the units are assembled, those particular joints are very well suited for dowels.

Heck, you could have used biscuits just fine.

[Keith Christopher]

Krenov Acolyte here....If you understand what he says regarding dowels, he simply uses them where they belong in his vision of the piece. He also uses dovetails as well but he believe that dovetails are overused in the modern world. And he goes on to talk about the nature of machine done dovetails. They and I agree, are mundane and boring when done by a machine. There is no flow or 'music' to them. Like little fanned soldiers all lined up.

His use of dowels was more to present a piece of wood in it's fullness for the observer to behold. Was he opinionated ? For sure, but what is wrong with that ? Looking at his pieces you cannot doubt the quality of his work or the eye he had for detail. I bet you would look his pieces over 1000 times and still find something you'd go, wow I didn't see that before.

So dowels are not his only joinery of choice but certainly one used where he deemed correct for the piece he envisioned or the wood used. Which in turned usually dictated what the piece would be. If you haven't already, read "The Fine Art of Cabinetmaking" by Krenov, he explains in great detail about why and when he used dowels, dovetails and other joinery.


:D:D:D


Wouldn't a dowel be considered just a variation of the mortise and tenon? A type of loose tenon? Would a traditional M&T be suitable in that application? Even the dovetail is considered by many to be a variation on the M&T.

Somebody had to be the first to use a dovetail. I'm sure at the time it had it's detractors also. Look where it is today.

"Different people, different ways."-James Krenov



Jeff,

Yes they are, and woodworking scientists will argue glue surface area and adhesion, structural integrity.....fact is, dowels are a fine form or joinery when done properly.




......If JK did it wrong, does it make it right?



Nope. Wrong is wrong. However, his use of dowels where he did, was not wrong. They worked and they were the proper joinery for the piece.

[Chris Ricker]

Am I the only one who had to look up the definition of "acolytes" ???:eek:

[Jeff Willard]

Heck, you could have used biscuits just fine.

I'm glad you said that 'stead o' me :D. Now I'm gettin' me some popcorn and a milkshake.

[Jeff Willard]

Am I the only one who had to look up the definition of "acolytes" ???:eek:

:o Ummm, I'm takin' the Fifth. I was able to divine the meaning from the context in which it was used. Shuttin' up now.

[Dean Egnater]

The issue, to me, is are the dowels strong enough to produce a lasting joint....not "are dovetails stronger than dowels". If you look at a bridge built in the 20s there is a lot more steel in than a modern bridge. Is it stronger? Perhaps...but the strength is wasted as it is not needed for the application.

You could epoxy all your joinery and the joint would be "stronger" than yellow glue but the wood is still going to fail before the glue in any case so it has no value in the application.

[Casey Gooding]

I think many here are forgetting that these pieces built with dowels were not meant to be heavily used. They are, for all purposes, mostly to look at. They are not going to be moved around a lot or put under a great deal of stress. For what they are, dowels are certainly suitable. If it was a piece that needed more strength, I'm sure JK would have chosen another method.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I guess my biggest beef is that this particular joint is used as an example, in a context where it works, but I think that context is very narrow, and to use that joint in many other situations invites breakdowns. Now it's perfectly fine to use in anything with a lifespan of several years, like kitchen cabinets, or a bookcase or something, but heirloom stuff?

A dovetail is completely different in this scenario because the weakness if the endgrain trying to resist dowel blowout is completly avoided. The dovetail has lots of long grain glue surface to make it hold and last.

As for the idea that dovetails don't work in this particular application, true sort of. Through style may have looked silly, but he sure could have used one of those mitered dovetails to completely conceal the inner workings.

Back to the point though, there is a better way to do that joint in most things, in my humble opinion.

[Sam Babbage]

When I was purely a hobbiest woodworker I would have possibly agreed with the anti-dowel brigade, but now, having worked in the industry for a few years I have moderated my views on 'lesser' joinery. While he was an 'idealist' cabinet-maker, Krenov did earn a living from his work so expediency must have always been at least at the back of his mind. Remember the old engineering adage: "Anyone can build a bridge that will stand up, it takes an engineer to build a bridge that will just stand up." I personally have to resist the urge to over-build everything myself.

[Brad Westcott]

Man, you guys make me feel better already.

I guess I will go buy that Festool Domino after all.

I have made a few M&T joints in my life and I still do but after reading this thread and eyeing what the Domino can do, I think I may just pull the trigger.

I have started to put a premium on my time since I have less and less of it, the older I get!!!!:p

[Cody Colston]

Not picking on you Cody, but I'd like to use that perspective to ask something. If JK did it wrong, does it make it right?

First, I'm not exactly a Krenov acolyte but I do admire the man's accomplishments, his opinionated manner and his contributions to woodworking.

Secondly, Steve, this is a forum and as such, differing opinions are not only inevitable but necessary to keep things interesting. I certainly don't view your opinion as "picking on me." :)

Now, to answer your question; no, if JK did it wrong it would be wrong...period. But, in this case, I do not believe it is wrong.

Someone made a comparison of a modern bridge to an older bridge. I'll take that comparison further...a modern bridge to a Roman bridge. There are bridges still standing that were built by the Romans. They were and are very strong, even after a couple thousand years. But, they were overbuilt and were wasteful of material and labor compared to a modern bridge.

I look at Krenov's use of dowels the same way. If a faster, easier method of joinery, that is still plenty strong and aesthetically correct will work, why use the more laborious method?

Remember, Krenov was first and foremost a cabinetmaker and his entire life's reputation was based upon quality work. The reason I wrote that I would take his word on the joinery was because I feel he could not afford, both professionally and personally to use or recommend an inferior joint for a specific application.

Now, if someone chose to use dovetails for the same application because their superior strength satisfied a desire to use the strongest joint possible, regardless of need, then that's not wrong, either. It's simply a personal choice.

BTW, I don't really like doweled joints, myself. ;)

Oh yeah, I did know what "acolyte" meant. :D

[David DeCristoforo]

Just FWIW, I don't think JK used dowels for reasons of expediency or efficiency. He was well known for being a meticulous artisan who absolutely would not compromise either his designs or his ideals. One might question this looking at the planes he made and ask "Then why didn't he cut his plane bodies out of solid blocks instead of taking the "easy way" out and laminating them?" But he had a different way of looking at tools just as he had a different way of looking at everything else. He was unquestionably unique in both his style and his approach.

[Keith Christopher]

An I say again, Krenov did not say dowels were the 'only joint I use' he always stated he used them where they seemed appropriate. And if you read any of his works, in all of his work he considered SO many things before assembly. seasonal movement, what the piece would be used for, the type of wood....so when he used dowels, they were good for that joint. Arguing it _vs_ dovetails is silly. They are both good joints when used properly and at the correct time.

[James Manning]

Why fight it.........buy a dowelmax or joint genie and get on with it!! I got the joint genie and love it.........:)

[Brad Westcott]

Why fight it.........buy a dowelmax or joint genie and get on with it!! I got the joint genie and love it.........:)

Because I prefer the larger gluing area and added strength of the Festool tenons, the adjustability of the size, and no loose jigs required to line up your cuts. In many ways, it performs like a bisquit joiner and we all know how fast it is to use a tool like that.

[David DeCristoforo]

I'm with Brad. I don't own a Domino but I would grab one in lieu of a doweling jig any day. I have never liked doweling jigs. Too fussy. As Brad points out, the Domino is fast, easy to use and the wide "tenons" offer much more "long grain" gluing surface. I cannot see how dowels could ever be considered more "respectable" no matter who uses them.

[Jim Becker]

Wouldn't a dowel be considered just a variation of the mortise and tenon? A type of loose tenon?

Bingo!
------

Folks, sometimes I think that many of us attribute too much to certain techniques over others and even over-analyze things in an attempt to identify "which is better". We even confuse "looks good" with "does the job".

There is no one "best way" to build most projects when it comes to woodworking. We have many choices and within certain limits, if we execute the method we choose well, the end result will be just what it needs to be.

We idolize the dovetail (and when done well, it's not only beautiful, but very strong) but sometimes forget that there is beauty in totally hidden joinery, too. Some makers purposely hide their joinery and I wouldn't be surprised in the least that there are many, many pieces of fine furniture "out there" that are constructed in ways that we might say, "Huh??" to if we only knew. I really got a chuckle from some comments in another thread about the non-dovetail drawer article in the same issue of Fine Woodworking. It's an attractive and strong method for building drawers, yet because it's not the worshiped dovetail, it's a ridiculous thing to have in a magazine by that name. Sorry, I disagree...it's just different. And I may just try it for my next furniture project.

I really enjoyed the articles on Krenov's techniques and liked the fact that he was perfectly happy to do things his own way. We should all try to keep an open mind when it comes to joinery and other techniques...and also try them. Even if we don't prefer something new in the long run, the mere fact of trying it out is an opportunity to learn something.

[Keith Christopher]

Bingo!
------

Folks, sometimes I think that many of us attribute too much to certain techniques over others and even over-analyze things in an attempt to identify "which is better". We even confuse "looks good" with "does the job".

There is no one "best way" to build most projects when it comes to woodworking. We have many choices and within certain limits, if we execute the method we choose well, the end result will be just what it needs to be.
....We should all try to keep an open mind when it comes to joinery and other techniques...and also try them. Even if we don't prefer something new in the long run, the mere fact of trying it out is an opportunity to learn something.

Jim,

Well said.

Keith

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Jim, Keith, I have to disagree, cordially of course. I do think there is just one best way to complete any given project. Given no limits on time or money, there will most certainly be an optimum. In reality though, that utopian ideal may not fly. That's why I framed the initial question the way that I did. I was curious what the jury thought of my self taught assumption that dovetails where best for this joint using the criteria that it was to be used on an heirloom, not some short lifed trinket.

I have an answer for that, and I do want to compliment you folks for your level headed respones to what could have turned into quite an argument.

My new theory is, I was right, I'm going to keep doing it the way that I have been. :D

[Larry Edgerton]

Bingo!
------

Folks, sometimes I think that many of us attribute too much to certain techniques over others and even over-analyze things in an attempt to identify "which is better". We even confuse "looks good" with "does the job".

There is no one "best way" to build most projects when it comes to woodworking. We have many choices and within certain limits, if we execute the method we choose well, the end result will be just what it needs to be.

We idolize the dovetail (and when done well, it's not only beautiful, but very strong) but sometimes forget that there is beauty in totally hidden joinery, too. Some makers purposely hide their joinery and I wouldn't be surprised in the least that there are many, many pieces of fine furniture "out there" that are constructed in ways that we might say, "Huh??" to if we only knew. I really got a chuckle from some comments in another thread about the non-dovetail drawer article in the same issue of Fine Woodworking. It's an attractive and strong method for building drawers, yet because it's not the worshiped dovetail, it's a ridiculous thing to have in a magazine by that name. Sorry, I disagree...it's just different. And I may just try it for my next furniture project.

I really enjoyed the articles on Krenov's techniques and liked the fact that he was perfectly happy to do things his own way. We should all try to keep an open mind when it comes to joinery and other techniques...and also try them. Even if we don't prefer something new in the long run, the mere fact of trying it out is an opportunity to learn something.

Agreed. To me after 34 years of making wood smaller, I believe that there is always a better way, and what keeps me going is the persuit of perfection, using the knowledge of others "and" what I have observed myself.

I respect what Krenov accomplished but I do not believe in putting people on a pedestal. It obscures objectivity. Maloff may come as close to a woodworking god as anyone for me, he had a way of making everything flow naturally that I truely admire. Either way it is important for all of us to learn lessons from our own work, rather than following blindly.

For example the vaulted dovetail joint is far from perfect, and I would say it is visually interesting but not the strongest joint. For on there is no long grain to long grain gluing surface, by its design it is a end grain to end grain joint, and end grain does not make a strong joint. I will go with the simple box joint for my own projects, but as customers expect dovetails on peices that cost as much as mine, I do dovetails on commisions. In looking at countless peices of old furniture over the years one thing stands out, dovetails fail. Because of their cuts they do not just fall apart, but they are loose most often and I do not find them to be ideal. In my shop I have a bench with dovetailed drawers, and one with box joints. The dovetailed drawers are relitively small, and so carry little weight, the box joint drawers are 2' square, and carry well over 100#s, especially the drawers with the clamps. I treat them roughly because I am trying to make a living here, both sets of drawers were built to the same standards of fit [tight], same species and yet the dovetail drawers are all loose, and the larger box joints are still intact, every single one. So what conclusion should I draw?

The most impressive joint I have seen in drawer construction is the Pin and Cresent joint. I have not seen one that was loose, and all of the pieces that have it are old. The machines that performed them in the eighteen hundreds were huge, and it is a hard joint to do with hand tools efficiently, but someday I am going to make a jig setup.

In my spare time.......:rolleyes:

Just my opinion, and in no way affiliated with this station.....

Gotta get to work....

Larry

[Keith Christopher]

...

The most impressive joint I have seen in drawer construction is the Pin and Cresent joint. I have not seen one that was loose, and all of the pieces that have it are old. The machines that performed them in the eighteen hundreds were huge, and it is a hard joint to do with hand tools efficiently, but someday I am going to make a jig setup.

In my spare time.......:rolleyes:

Just my opinion, and in no way affiliated with this station.....

Gotta get to work....

Larry


http://woodworker.com/fullpres.asp?PARTNUM=878-561&LARGEVIEW=ON

Here ya go !