HELP!!! : Handcut dovetails

[Ken Shoemaker]

I spend most of my time in General Woodwoorking. From time to time I stop in to see the work here in NH.

I just had the VERY hummbling experience with my first attempt at hand cutting. In short, I have created firewood with a Craftsman Dovetail Saw. ( Of course, it's probaly the finest fire wood on the planet ;) )

Do you guys have any insite that could help me out. I've been looking at all the videos I can find. I know it takes practice, but what am I supposed to be wporking on first????

I guess I'm aksing, "What is the basic"????Thanks, Ken

[David Gendron]

Sawing to a line... that is to be able to cut to a staight line and to be able to stop at the right place(to the line that deffine the bottom of your DT). and practice, practiceand some more practice!!

[Bob Smalser]

What is it you are trying to do? Blind dovetails in drawers?

In general, you should master through dovetails first so the spacial relationship between pins and tails becomes routine for you instead of something you have to think about and then draw every time you do them.

Build some boxes and chests or drawers with through dovetails first. And even learn to cut them on the table saw, band saw and coping saw.

Other than that whether blind or through it's mostly about accurate layout and cutting on the correct side of the mark. Use knives and awls rather than pencils, and scribe fairly deep to prevent chipping. Those knife marks are part of a well-made joint. And while you don't need special chisels, you do benefit from thin ones with beveled edges. And they must be exceptionally sharp.

Machine Cut Through Dovetails, with Layout
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=13905

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5732475/73536442.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5732475/73536451.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5732475/73536955.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5305809/68747894.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5732475/73537166.jpg

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/130418711.jpg

[Matt Benton]

My advice from recently beginning down the same road you are on:

1. Always chisel to the line. The saw (at least my LN DT saw) is not precise enough to cut a finished joint.

2. Build pairing blocks similar to the ones that Tommy MacDonald (Grand Slam Tools) sells. I'm made some oversized blocks from purpleheart. They make it MUCH easier to maintain the correct angle, as well as ensure you are using the same angles for both pins and tails.

3. I started using a utility knife for marking, and it works great. Very precise...

[Ken Shoemaker]

Great advise!! Also, I'm using a Craftsman Dovetail saw that was in a box of stuff i bought at an auction. I think I got my money's worth for the$8.00 I paid for the box!! :rolleyes:

What kind of saws are you guiys using??? I was looking at an Adria (sp) made in Vancouver BC.

[jim hedgpeth]

I recently got an old Diston off ebay, my first back saw, it helped some. Practice on through dovetails first, as others have said. I find a marking gauge and dovetail marker handy. Very sharp chisels, and sneaking up on the mark is probably most important for me at this point.
Are you making the tails and useing them to mark out the pins? That will help prevent mismatch.

Jim

[Jim Koepke]

Ken,
I am also trying to perfect my dovetail cutting. My past efforts have been less than perfect. Most of them have held together, but the gaps leave a bit to be desired.

I have been cutting a bunch of practice dovetails in an attempt to improve my skills. It has been helping, but still not there. One thing that came to mind was to try cutting them pins first instead of tails first. That was a shock as the first time this was tried they looked much better along one face.

There are some who will argue for weeks on end whether tails first or pins first is better, but what ever works for you is the best way.

There was a link was in another thread here on SMC that lead me to a group of articles on dovetails > http://sandal-woodsblog.com/2008/09/19/hand-cut-dovetails-my-first-results/ < There are a few links at the bottom that add to the dovetail making tutorial. I have not read the whole thing yet, but will likely do so in the next hour or so.

jim

[Matt Benton]

I'm finding that maybe the most important aspect of the saw doesn't have much affect on the end result, and that is comfort. Honestly, as long as the saw is stiff, straight and sharp, I feel like it would do the job. Again, your just removing waste, which is not a particularily precise operation.

I've done this on a bandsaw, both pins and tails, with very good results (particularily on smaller projects).

Before you go out and spend $125 on a DT saw, be sure that you have all of the other tools that you need. In addition to a saw, I would say you need a couple of chisels, dovetail layout tool, marking knife (utility knife works well), marking gauge and coping saw or fret saw (unless you want to remove the waste with chisels, which I don't recommend).

[Matt Benton]

Another tip I learned the hard way:

If you cut the tails first, when you are trimming the pins to fit, once the tail board just starts to fit onto the pin board, be sure you don't remove any more material from the tops of the pins, and just work to ensure that they are square. The paring blocks are very helpful for final fitting...

[Bob Smalser]

What kind of saws are you guys using???



A prewar Disston 68. Nice ones can be had for 20 bucks and up.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/5536778/70921478.jpg

But it ain't the saw.

[Matt Edwards]

Its been said already but I'll go ahead say it again, Practice.......with a little extra practice thrown in for good measure.

I started out by practicing laying out and cutting a few through DT's. I then realized that my sawing technique need refinement. So, I'd lay out lines for tails on a 3.5 x 3/4" pine board spacing them about 1/8" apart right side slopes from center to right edge of the board, and left slopes from te center to the left edge. Then I practice following the line to a scribed base line keeping it at a right angle with the top, yadda yadda yadda. The second practice was with the chisels, making sure they were as sharp as I could make them (I use a 1/8 1/4 and 1/2) the most. Then chopping and paring to a line with out damaging it.

The bottom line for me was solidifying the sawing and chiseling skills first, then laying out and cutting practice joint after practice joint. I tried to make time to do one 3 1/2" joint each time I was in the shop, sometimes more, till my confidence was up to where I could use one in a project. Its a very rewarding learning process!



HTH!
Matt



Oh, the saw I use is one I made from information from The Norse woodsmith's blog. Leif is a true craftsman with excellent skills at tutoralizing it in a way that a bone head such as myself can follow it :)

[Jim Koepke]

But it ain't the saw.

I will agree with that to a point. Maybe what should be said is the points of the saw. A 5 ppi rip saw will not make good dovetails in smaller stock.

I have used a Craftsman Gent's saw, a Disston, a Bishop and a few others. The difference of the saws was mostly handle comfort and the smoothness of cut due to the set or ppi.

My current efforts are with a Bishop saw with teeth cut at 15 ppi by my own hand. Yes, the saw cuts well. No, the teeth do not look professionally cut. There is some unevenness that will be taken out over time with future sharpening. Even a saw that is not sharpened to perfection will do a good job if it will track straight. A saw's tracking is controlled by the set of the teeth and not the hand(s) working it.

jim

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Ken,

I had to learn handcut DTs on my own and the Rob Cosman video was a great help. He naturally leans towards Lie Nielsen tools and gives a thorogh demonstration on the difference between a good DT saw like the Lie Nielsen and a cheap one.

He also covers and shows you the proper sawing techniques to start out with.

I'm discovering that there are many ways to use handtools - in those many ways, there are right ways and not-so-right ways. Technique in how you hold a tool, your body position, etc. all play small roles in the final result. Having someone show you those things before you create bad habits can be a great benefit.

I'm in no way close to mastering a hand-cut DT, I have a loooong way to go. But, good tools and a couple videos sure help get you on the right path.

[John Keeton]

For the money, there is not much better than the Veritas dovetail saw (http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=61974&cat=1,42884) at $65. Rob Cosman makes a superb saw, but it is $250. I started with the Veritas, and it does a fine job. I prefer the Cosman for the balance and heft, but starting out (or for the long run) the Veritas is a great saw.

The Cosman DVDs (http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/AU01.htm)are how I started, and once you absorb them, keep the shopbook and sell the set of DVDs in the SMC Classified forum. They will sell quickly. Or, post a want to buy (WTB) ad to see if someone has a set they will sell.

But, regardless of the saw, or the method, if you do not have properly ground, and extremely sharp chisels with beveled shoulders, getting a clean dovetail will be difficult.

Good luck! And, practice, practice, practice!!

[harry strasil]

Don't strangle the saw handle, hold it loosely with your index finger straight out along the top like you are pointing at something, and let the saw do the work, that's what its made for, a little tip for starting in the proper place is to cut out a little V with your marking knife for the saw to start in on the waste side of the line.

The notch on the right is complete and ready for the saw to start.

And always saw from the side that is going to show just in case you go a little below the depth line on the back side.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/saw%20bench/sawbench24.jpg

[Graham Hughes (CA)]

My opinion on this differs from some posters; I think deliberately undercutting and then paring back is an enormous waste of time and that you should shoot to get the right straight off the saw. The most important thing is to learn to saw straight to a line. Practice this, not just with dovetails but with tenons, with trimming, in a miter box, everything. It is a very important skill for hand tool woodworking. A side effect of this is that you will become familiar with the saw you use; its kerf, how it works, etc.

Once you have achieved this, everything else is simple.

Mark the dovetail bases with a marking gauge.
If you must, lay them out with a pencil and a marking gauge, but I usually freehand it a la Frank Klausz.
Cut.
Remove waste (1).
Put first board on second board in the position you'll put it in.
Mark corresponding parts (2).
Cut again, making sure that you're putting the kerf on the waste side.
Remove waste.
Assemble.
Done!

Your first sets will look terrible, but should hold decently. Don't be discouraged; look at what you got wrong, and try to fix it next time. Repeat.

Now, all this said, if you're trying to use the Craftsman dovetail saw that they sell in stores, be warned, it is a complete piece of junk. You can do good work with it, but it's not helping. The Veritas ones for $65 are remarkably nice, or you could see if you could find a Japanese saw and use that. Find something that fits your hand and use it.

For getting the bulk of the waste out, a coping saw works fine, although you probably want a fine blade. Fret saws are great. I use the Gramercy bowsaw when I can be bothered to. And sometimes I just chisel it out. You'll need to chisel to the baseline anyway (well, probably). The trick here is remembering that the baseline is a show surface, but the stuff just behind it has no value to the joint whatsoever. So undercut away! Much easier and quicker than using a paring jig, I find.
I normally use a marking knife, but it has an annoying habit of shaving parts of the joint. Tage Frid used a scriber. Kari Hultman uses a pencil with a chisel edge she made on sandpaper. Roy Underhill uses the same dovetail saw he cut the kerfs with, putting it in the kerf and bringing it back sharply; this works better if you do it before removing the waste. All of this works.

[Edwood Ferrari]

But, regardless of the saw, or the method, if you do not have properly ground, and extremely sharp chisels with beveled shoulders, getting a clean dovetail will be difficult.


I second John. I made a point on really sharping my new Marples chisels and had much better luck on my second dovetail attempt in some scrap maple this past weekend. I used a cheap Marples 15 tpi flush cut pull saw and tried to stay on the waste sides of all my lines. The saw did the rough work but it was the chiseling that did the fine work.

[Prashun Patel]

Ken-
As an intrepid dovetail neophyte, I'm interested in the progress you've made after 6 months... Please give me hope that one can get good at this!!!

[Chris Griggs]

I'm going to agree with Graham on this one (though I'm a relative newbie as well). The goal is to assemble the joint without paring. This doesn't happen often for me, yet, but the way I look at it is the more you need to pare the more opportunities your giving yourself to make a mistake.

Also, get a decent saw. I've heard of people cutting excellent dovetails with a hack saw but when you are just starting out you want to remove as many variables and obstacles as possible. If you KNOW that its not the saw screwing up, it makes it easier to identify and correct your errors. From everything I've read the Veritas performs on par with saws twice the price.

And oh yeah, like everyone else said... Practice and more practice. Draw a bunch of straight lines across the end grain and down a couple inches and try to split the line. Check to make sure the kerf is square an plumb after each cut. From there, start marking lines at dovetail angles, either angling across the end grain (a pins cut) or down the long grain (a tails cut). After each cut, check to make sure that the non-angled dimension is plumb or square, respectively. I do these exercises to "warm up" before I cut any dovetails now, and its making all the difference.

Keep at it, and you will see substantial progress in your work.

[Dan Karachio]

I am no pro on this and am also learning. Lately I have been getting better results with a nice new saw, the Lie Nielsen. Wow. Where I struggle is chiseling out the waste. I discovered my practice wood is a problem. Cheap brittle Lowes poplar is not very cooperative and crumbles like stale coffee cake some times. Of course I am not going to practice on mahogany or something, but I found some less pricey cherry and maple that is working much better. Still, a long way to go.

P.S. I saw the pics of the table saw method. I have tried this and it really does work. I also have used my bandsaw to good results too. I believe this is what David Marks does. If it's good enough for him then obviously it is fine for me. Still, I am striving to just do this by hand and am willing to put in my dues until I get it. Don't give up. It is going to be ugly, but it gets better!

[Larry Marshall]

I think the key lies in your post when you said "this is my first handsaw experience", or something to that effect. As David said, you've got to learn how to cut to a line in the same way you learn to draw a bow over violin strings. Until you practice a lot, you can't expect music from either tool.

I'd recommend that you draw 100 lines on the end of a board and cut along all of them. You'll see yourself getting better as you go.

I'll semi-disagree with those who suggest that "it's not the saw." If the saw is sharp and if it's a quality saw, then they are correct. But you can't cut anything with a dull tool. If that's a modern "Craftsman dovetail saw" it's not a quality saw. So, while the ability to cut to a line is by far the most important thing, don't dismiss saw quality completely. The Lee Valley DT saw is, by far, the best bang for the buck when it comes to dovetail saws.

Cheers --- Larry

[John A. Callaway]

I started to post a mirror statement to John Keeton.... I too use the Veritas saw, and the Cosman videos...

Biggest thing that got me doing better work... Sawing posture. The way the arm swings the saw will drastically effect your cut. Your arm should be moving 90 degrees from your chest. Stand facing the work straight on... Most people tend to either stand a little askew, or turn their arm a little askew to the body. If you buy no other video of Rob's, buy the sawing technique video.... you can always sell it on here or the ebay to get most of your money back after watch it a few times....

[Larry Fox]

For me (and I am NO expert) I would;

- Get the Cosman DVD
- Get the Cosman Shop Book
- Make sure you have a good saw (I use a Wenzloff)
- Make sure your chisels are good and sharp
- Practice, LOTS of practice - layout, sawing, chiseling. Once you think you have it, do another few hours of it.

For full disclosure I recently took the week-long Cosman class in Calgary so my technique is 100% Cosman but it is not the only way for sure. Extremely valuable and learned a TON but it can be done without the class. Agree with him or not -- the guy knows how to cut dovetails.

157428

[Steve Branam]

I posted a thread the other day on Frank Klausz dovetails at http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=145395. It has a pointer to my blog post that shows making them. This is yet one of the many other methods.

My 2 cents worth is to focus on functionality first (learn to make a dovetail that's structurally sound, which is actually fairly easy), then work on improving appearance. That's a matter of honing in on fine points that you can only figure out with practice. Eventually those gappy joints will be clean like the photos posted here. You don't expect to play a perfect tune the first time you pick up a musical instrument, but you get something, and you know it will get better with time; the same goes here.

I'm still in the gappy stage myself. Maybe after another 40 or 50...

[Mark Roderick]

Oh gosh No! Your LN dovetail so is PLENTY fine enough to cut the final joint, and the saw is much more accurate than a chisel in cutting a clean, flat line. If people had to use a chisel to clean up the saw kerfs nobody would use dovetails in furniture building!

[Derby Matthews]

after years of searching for the "best dovetail saw money can buy" I found that a really thin Japanese saw that cuts on the pull stroke unbeatable for cutting pins, tails and starting blind pins. The one I have "Nakaya" I think, is only .011 thick. It's pretty fragile, but the cut is narrower than the pencil mark reference line and can be made in two to three strokes per cut. It's so fast I make several per dovetail so it's easier to clean out the waste wood. Never been happier with my own (sometimes dubious) results than with this saw.

[paul cottingham]

frank Klausz video "dovetail a drawer" was really helpful to me. he really demystifies dovetails. http://frankklausz.com/dovetail.html

[Bret Duffin]

I use my band saw to cut 90% of the through dovetails. I mark everything with a very sharp pencil and then leave the pencil line.

Sometimes I'll hog out most of the pins on half blinds using a router then clean it up with a chisel. Halfblinds are more work.

So, I don't know if you can call mine hand cut or not although there is hand work involved. BTW, I use a Dozuki pull saw which I prefer over the western style dovetail saws.

Good luck, Bret

[Peter Cobb]

There's an article (+ online video (http://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=31582)) on finewoodworking.com called "Trip to the dovetail doctor" (Gary Rogowski).
Hope it helps!
Cheers,
Peter
PD On the other hand the advice about familiarity with your tools and learning how to cut to a line is spot on! Dovetails are a bit like a well done butterfly stroke in swimming... it's a long haul from the doggy paddle stage! :p

[jamie shard]

Already been said, but I figured I would repeat... My biggest errors come from:

*Not letting the saw do its work.

*Not sawing on the waste side and therefore not leaving the line/scribe.

*Not having sharp chisels and therefore crushing the wood.

*Not removing waste a little at a time and therefore having the chisel back up and crush wood below the baseline.

*and in general, working too fast.

:)