Existing building-Remodel for shop

[Jim O'Dell]

Hi all!!
Well, after watching the recent builds and remodels of Jim Ketron, Chris Padilla, Frank Pellew, and Jim Becker, I'm going to ask for some ideas. The building in question is an existing detached shop. The previous owner was a welder and that's where he "worked" after he retired. It is a 20' wide, by 24' deep building. On the south side (20') there is a 10' wide roll up garage door. The east side is part of the back yard, and has an attached patio, 12' X 14' of which is covered. and a walk through door. I plan to enclose the covered part during the remodel. The best part of the building is that it has it's own electrical service from the pole. I'll need to replace the small service panel, and rewire the entire shop, but I don't mind that part.
This was a cheaply built building of 2X4 construction. The ceiling joists are also 2X4 on 24" centers, and although I haven't opened up a wall yet, my bet is the walls are also on 24" centers. I think the rafters are 2 X 6, but it's too dark to be able to tell at this time of night with no power to the building yet. The exterior is in bad shape with paint peeling off, and most of the sheathing is 1/4" ply material that is warped and disintegrating in spots. All of the north side, and the parts above the door height on the other 3 sides are nice thick wood siding planks. I have some work to do on a short portion of the southeast corner to get the ground down from the top of the foundation. The rest of the foundation has 2 to 3" sticking up from ground level.
The most major problem that I don't have an answer for (besides a total tear down and rebuild) is the ceiling height. This shop must have been built for munchkins as the inside headroom is only 7' 7". While I could make this work by losing the roll up door, and flush mounting all lights, including florescents, I'm hoping someone has a good and structurally safe idea for raising the ceiling height. Can I change the structure of the roof in a way that I can get rid of the existing ceiling joists, or at least move them up off of the walls and on to the rafters? Even if I needed to go back and add/move the wall 2X4's to get them to 16 inch centers, or even just add to get them at 12" centers, I think that would be doable and just toenail them in. Will the only way to lose the rafters be to open up the gable end on the short sides and somehow "slip" in a ridge beam to accomplish this? I know I'd have to build in the support under this to hold it up and am guessing I'd have to have someone come in to hoist the beam up as it's bound to weigh a ton (or more?) The other problem is it has a very shallow pitched roof. I'd say no stepper that 4-12. While I know I'll never be able to achieve 10' clearance, I'd like to at least get to 9' 6" in the center part of the shop if possible. If not, I'll live with it.
The other question is on the exterior. I plan to take down all of the ply sheathing and replace with Hardi board planks (not the 4 X 8 sheets). But where the nice wood is, can I just install the Hardi boards on top of them? Would it be ok to wrap over them with the Tyvek rap before the hardi boards go on? Since I will not be heating or cooling this shop, I'd like to seal it off some, especially for the winter months. I will be puting a window type A/C-Heater in the covered porch addition, as this will double as an isolation room for sick (infectious) rescue dogs we might bring in. Other wise it will be my finishing room ;-)
Thank you for reading this far. This is going to be a long term project that I hope to start this winter. I do plan to pull some of the sheathing off this next weekend while the wife is delivering 3 rescue dogs to new forever homes. I need to make sure that the wood underneath is not too damaged. If it is, maybe I'll get that 10' ceiling after all!! Jim.

[Joe Scarfo]

I don't know the construction parameters for where you are, but the roof can be raised.... If it was my shop, I know how I would go about it, but it would take a few friends, about a days efforts, and a raised roof.

I've seen "pre constructed" wall sections raised.

Why not

1. disconnect the current roof from the building
2. using hydraulic jacks and cribbing, raise the roof 2 feet or so (to the height you want.
3. place "pre constructed wall sections, between the existing wall studs and the roof.
4. lower the roof onto the newly raised wall.

Sounds simple enough to me, but I don't do this kind of stuff for a living. All the neighbors call me when something needs to be "McGyvered" together.

I would also consider nailing 2 x 2's to those 2 x 4's on the southern and western exposure sides and put in insulation.. that'll help control the temperature.

Good luck w/ the new shop. I sure wish I had a stand a lone shop in the back yard.

Joe in Tampa....

[Jerry Olexa]

Jim sounds like a great opportunity for a standalone shop. If you could post some pics int and ext and then we could better reco to you on possible approaches particularly the interior ceiling. If you don't completely rebuild your roof and replace sheathing, you could "sister in" 2x6s or 2x8s and then put in "higher " cross or tie beams to give you the height you wanted. Also sounds like you need overall strenghtening of the structure. 2X4s on 24 c in roof for that size bldg is not really adequate. Let us know.

[Jim Ketron]

Jim, Give us some pics to go on.
There should be plenty of helpfull Ideas on how best to get the roof hight you need It can be done many diff ways. sounds like you have a very promising Building to work with!
Jim Ketron

[Jim O'Dell]

Thanks guys. You know, right when I hit the send button I thought I should have waited and taken pictures to post with the request. I'll do pictures tonight when I get home, some in the attic, outside views, and I'll take one of the inside, but I'll warn you. It is still full of the former owner's crud, as well as a bunch of mine that has just been thrown out there while we settle in. Thanks again and I'll post later. Jim.

[Jim O'Dell]

OK, here are the pictures. I'll post the outside views in this post, and the inside the attic views in a following post.
pic 1 is the east side of the shop showing the covered patio
pic 2 is the north side of the shop
pic 3 shows the north inside wall from the garage door on the south side
pic 4 shows the east inside wall from the garage door. I told you it was full!!

[Jim O'Dell]

Here are the other shots.

pic 1-4 are shots up in the attic. It was so dark I couldn't see anything until the flash went off. And this was at 1:30 PM !!. I guess it shows that the roof is sealed off well ;-0.
pic 5 The first one should have been with the first group, as it is of the hallway that is across the entire length of the North wall.
Thanks for looking and giving some help as to which way to go. I thought about taking the roof off, extending the walls up, the rebuilding the roof, but the shingles are only about 2 years old, and are really in pretty good shape. I'd feel bad just ripping them off and throwing them away. Thanks again! Jim.

edit. Sorry, I forgot about the piece of siding in picture 4. Some has been cut off of the bottom edge, but it shows the detail that is moulded into the top edge of the piece. This is what is on the north outside face, all space above the top of the door height on the other 3 sides, and is on the interior wall of the hallway facing into the remainder of the shop. Jim.

[Chris Padilla]

Jim,

Can your budget handle a total tear-down and do-it-right? When it came down to it, that was my only option to really do what I needed. Low and behold I found some termite damage and while it wasn't remotely serious, I'm still glad I went to the trouble of tearing every single bit of drywall out of there so I could SEE...really SEE.

I did the same to our 1/2-bath and found mice had been Motel 6'ing it in the walls.

[Jim O'Dell]

Well, I will be gutting the interior, and most of the 3 sides of the exterior. I will be starting on the south east corner of the east wall (picture post 1, picture #1) this weekend. Just preliminary stuff, to see what the studs look like. This is the spot where there is some water damage to the 1/4" sheathing that has to go. If the structure is too bad, I will probably bite the bullet and just tear the whole building down, and start over with a clean slab...that is if SWMBO can be swayed that direction. We'll see. I would really like to do this, but if the building can be used as is, with some modifications, I would have a hard time justifying it to my wife. Jim.

[Glen Smith]

Are you affected by permits and building codes where you are? At what point in a "remodel" will permits be required? I remember hearing a story (don't know if it is true) about a guy who had a quonset hut that he wanted to replace with a stick frame building. But the codes had changed and he wouldn't be able to put a NEW stick frame in the same place. So he built part of the new stick frame inside the q-hut, tore down the q-hut around it, and then added on to get what he wanted. All done over time so as to make each part a "modification of the existing building".

If you want to keep the roof with its 2 year od shingles, could you jack it up as suggested previously, then put studs in between the 24 inch centers of the existing ones? Alternativly, you could build all new walls (on the ground) of the height that you want, then in one very hectic day with lots of help, jack up the roof, knock out the old walls, raise the new walls into place and jack the roof down onto them. Just be :eek: VERY :eek: sure of the temporary structure that holds the roof up while replacing the walls.

Glen

[Jim O'Dell]

Glen, thanks for the note. We live just outside of Fort Worth. We're in no mans land as far as cities go, although Ft. Worth is making noises about annexing this area. So I would have to check with the county about permits. If I'm able to just redo the sheathing, and enclose the covered porch, I doubt that I'll bother. If I end up raising the roof, or more indepth, then I'll check with the county on permits. Jim.

[Rob Russell]

Jim,

I'd knock it down and build fresh. Knocking down isn't that expensive. From your description and a quick look at the pics, you'll want things like a window or two for some natural light and walls you can trust that you can hang stuff on. While a demo/build new might seem like overkill, it means that you can build the structure properly from the beginning. You might also consider filling in the corner of the patio closest to your house with additional concrete and building over that. The extra floor space would allow you to keep the dedicated rescue dog room and still have a finishing room. I know if this were at our house and my wife might, on occasion, be bringing in rescue dogs - I'd never see a day of the space as a finish rooom. You could use the jog that would leave in the building (in back) as covered/outside lumber storage (buying green and air dry under cover).

The demo/build approach will cost more but, in the long run, you'd get a building that really meets your needs and is built to your specs, rather than trying to patch up a problem.

Rob

[Jim O'Dell]

bump bump!!

[Tim Morton]

I'm guessing that tearing it down and rebuilding is not an option as you haven't commented on the other suggestions to do that. I would call a builder and have him come out and look it over to see about "raising it up and setting it on a 2ft block foundation.

[Chris Padilla]

Hey Tim,

Now raising the whole thing 2 feet doesn't sound too bad an idea. That is what, 3 or 4 rows of cinder block?

Still, this building sounds pretty cheaply slapped together...maybe it'll fall down you just push hard enough on one end?? It might not survive a raising....

I'd say if you want to work with what you have, to get a professional's opinion of the structure so in can be properly reinforced if needed for what you plan to use it as. This should probably be done after you gut it but I can tell you that tearing sheetrock off is a lot of messy, laborious work. A properly-placed bulldozer would make short work of that structure! ;)

[Jim O'Dell]

Hi guys...

I would love to knock it down and start over, and may have to if the 2 X 4's are damaged beyond reasonable repair. I would prefer to save some money if at all possiblem and do a remodel instead of a rebuild. Think about it this way....if I can make a workable shop, even if I have to live with the low ceilings, maybe, just maybe I can talk SWMBO into letting me get the MM16. (How tall are those things?) If I end up spending a chunk of money doing a slab up rebuild, I'm telling you, I'll be wishing I could get the Lowe's Delta 9" special in the shop!!
So that is where I'm coming from. I actually have a design started in my Punch! software that is a total rebuild. I just don't think it's going to happen, even if I did all the work myself. But we'll see.

Chris, I think your probably on base pretty good here, I don't think the building would survive being raised. I do like the idea of the cinder block base, though. Do 2-3 feet of that, then build a normal 8" wood wall on top of that. Solves the problem of the slab being too close to the ground on the one side.

Tim, you must have missed one of my posts yesterday answering back to Chris where I talked about if I had to bite the bullet because of structural problems, that I probably would, if I could get my wife's approval. The first time I mentioned it, she was quiet. That's better than a NO!!, isn't it??? And pretty much the same thing as a yes?????

Thanks for the ideas everyone. Saturday will probably tell me what I'm looking at. I'll report back then. If you have any more ideas, I'm listing! Jim.

edit: an 8" wall on top of the cinder blocks? Man, it must be past my bedtime.. Please read that as 8 feet.

[Rob Russell]

" ... I talked about if I had to bite the bullet because of structural problems, that I probably would, if I could get my wife's approval. The first time I mentioned it, she was quiet. That's better than a NO!!, isn't it??? And pretty much the same thing as a yes????? ..."


If you make her rescue dog activities part of the knowndown/rebuild and let her design part of the space to her needs, it becomes more than "your shop with a space that's also used for dogs". if you go tha route, don't overlook adding additional floor space.

[Frank Pellow]

Hi guys...

I would love to knock it down and start over ...

...I probably would, if I could get my wife's approval. The first time I mentioned it, she was quiet. That's better than a NO!!, isn't it??? And pretty much the same thing as a yes?????



I am on the side of knocking the building down and starting over. But that would only be true if I planned to remain in the house for a LONG time. Are you?

About your wife's approval - Silence from my wife on a quastion like this almost always means ultimate approval.

[Jim O'Dell]

I am on the side of knocking the building down and starting over. But that would only be true if I planned to remain in the house for a LONG time. Are you?
About your wife's approval - Silence from my wife on a quastion like this almost always means ultimate approval.

Hi Bob and Frank, Yes, we will be here untill I'm too old to swing a hammer any more ;-). We moved out here to get away from the cities' dog limits. So as long as we don't get annexed and can't get grandfathered in for the dogs, which I don't think they can deny, we are already pretty deeply rooted here, even though we've been here less than 3 months.
You'll let me quote you on that last line, right??

Bob, I've already scoped out the rest of the patio surface. The building is 20 X 24, and the patio is 12 x 24, offset 10 feet to the rear. Only 12 X 14 is currently covered, but a rebuild would be easy to encompass it, although looking at it, I doubt that they dug footers when they poured the patio slab, and therefore may not hold the weight of a building properly. It has shifted slightly down in the back, maybe up 1/4" in the front. It's about 30 feet from the enbankment to the creek at the rear of the property. I'd hate to think about tearing it out and redoing the slab, but my Dad was in the concrete business most of his life, and can look at it and guide me on what would have to be done. (He build a 30 X 24 shop, attached to his garage at 70 + years of age. The only help he used was in puring the concrete!!!)

Thanks for the ideas and encouragement. I'll post back on Sat to let you know what I've uncovered. Jim.

[Tim Morton]

Jim: as soon as you mentioned "the wife" I now know where you are coming from, which is not always a bad thing. No way could I talk my wife into tearing down a perfectly good building( no matter how not perfect it is) to build another in its place for a wood shop. Is there room for an addition? Maybe thats a better way to attack this problem. The long term goal would be a complete new shop...its just a matter of how you get there from here. :cool: I think the first thing to do is det someone out there to take a look and advise you on how to proceed...make sure the wife is present so when he says things like "does not meet code"' and "dangerous' and"cheaper to rebuild"...it will be a bug in here ear.

[Tom LaRussa]

I don't think the building would survive being raised.
I bet it would if you resheathed it in plywood, added a skirt (for lack of a better term) made of say, double 2x10s around the base of the structure to spread the pressure from the jacks, and added a few temporary diagonal braces inside -- 1x4s might do the trick.

After all, it's a pretty light weigh building -- we're not talking about jacking up the parthenon. :D

[Jim O'Dell]

OK, guys, here's my Saturday report as promised. We closed on the old house Thursday, over a celebretory lunch, I basically had Glenna's approval on the rebuild if needed. Went out this am and got some more pricing on what I'd need to have to at least an idea of cost. Came home and pulled a piece of sheathing back on the worst looking spot...water damage on the sheathing, sheathing warped, sheathing virtually at ground level, and what did I find underneath????
Perfectly new looking 2 X 4 studs and sill plate. I'm still dumbfounded as I sit here and type. So much that I'm sonsoling myself somewhat with a praline candy from the Thursday lunch, and a DP on ice.
So, my hope now is that when I gut the rest of the siding to replace it, I'll find some hidden damage. If not, and I don't suspect I will at this point, I'll double up the 2 X 4's to be 12" on center to strengthen the structure, re sheath it with Hardiboard planks, enclose the covered part of the porch, redo the electrical and hope for an MM16!! (Man, I've got to be able to dream about something, or I can't go to sleep at night!) Later on, maybe after a good hail storm, I can rip the roof off, extend the walls up 30", and redo the roof structire to have good head room, and some lumber storage over what is now the covered porch.
Thanks for all the ideas. I needed them to help point me in the right direction. If you have any ideas on how to do the roof trusses to gain a vaulted interior space, I would appreciate the ideas. Now to work on the idea of doing that NOW, instead of later!!!! Thanks again. Jim.

[Frank Pellow]

...

Perfectly new looking 2 X 4 studs and sill plate.

...



Thats great! :) Why does that sort of thing never happen to me? I can honestly say that every time that I have done a similar investigation, the condition of the underlying wood/etc has always been worse than one might expect it to be.

[Jim O'Dell]

Thats great! :) Why does that sort of thing never happen to me. I can honestly say that every time that I have done a similar investigatio, the condition of the underlying wood/etc has always been worse than one might expect it to be.

Yeah, but why does it only happen when I want to find a problem? ;-) You're right it is nice that I won't have to spend as much time and money doing the shop, and I think I can achieve almost the same thing as the total rebuild a lot cheaper and, more importantly, a lot quicker. I just have to get the right thinking cap on again, and work through the ideas of removing the roof, extending the walls up 30" and re-roofing the building. The roof is where I have my questions. I'm going to have to get someone to come in and look at the structure and tell me what I need in the way of roof trusses to achieve the vaulted interior ceiling. I was thinking of a ridge beam on the total rebuild, but I bet there is a way to do it with less expenditure.
Thanks for the nod. I wish you continued succes and speed with your shop. I really appreciate you're sharing the pictures and the "struggles" as you decide how you will achieve your goal. Jim.