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View Full Version : Cermark - it sticks around



Belinda Barfield
10-01-2009, 11:58 AM
I marked the two items in the photo a little over two years ago. Both have taken a lot of abuse. The tape has been in pockets, worn on a belt, lost behind the seat of the truck, dropped, slid across a work table, and pretty much anything else you can think of to do with a tape. The Cermark has held up pretty well, especially considering the tape case isn't high quality chrome plated. The marking is actually darker than it looks in the photo.

Just thought some of you who haven't tried Cermark might be interested. Both were marked using the LMM-6000 in the aerosol can.

129048

Frank Corker
10-01-2009, 12:11 PM
My cermark is well over 3 years and still works fine. It's in paint format but I keep it hidden in a dark drawer to avoid it coming into contact with daylight. Seems to work, so why not!

Dee Gallo
10-01-2009, 6:50 PM
I marked the two items in the photo a little over two years ago. Both have taken a lot of abuse. The tape has been in pockets, worn on a belt, lost behind the seat of the truck, dropped, slid across a work table, and pretty much anything else you can think of to do with a tape. The Cermark has held up pretty well, especially considering the tape case isn't high quality chrome plated. The marking is actually darker than it looks in the photo.

Just thought some of you who haven't tried Cermark might be interested. Both were marked using the LMM-6000 in the aerosol can.

129048

Good to know, Belinda, thanks! And I'll bet the guys don't try to make off with your tape either - it's too pretty!

:) dee

Scott Challoner
10-01-2009, 10:38 PM
I have no idea why I haven't marked my Leatherman yet. It's first on the agenda for tomorrow.

Anthony Scira
10-02-2009, 2:10 AM
"I have no idea why I haven't marked my Leatherman yet. It's first on the agenda for tomorrow."

If something in my house fits in the laser its been there. And anything new better watch out !

BTW just kiddin with the NOOB thing ;)

Scott Challoner
10-02-2009, 10:04 AM
No offense taken:)
I think the only reason it survived was because I couldn't find it during the "Burn everything" phase.

Steve Rozwood
10-02-2009, 10:18 AM
Belinda,

Thank you for the nice comment!

It’s always nice to here that our hard work in creating a quality product pays off.

Steve

Brian Robison
10-02-2009, 10:20 AM
Now to bring the cost down:D

Belinda Barfield
10-02-2009, 10:25 AM
Good to know, Belinda, thanks! And I'll bet the guys don't try to make off with your tape either - it's too pretty!

:) dee


LOL . . . that was the idea, Dee! I'm particular about tools, etc., so pretty much everything I work with is marked.

For years I wrote with a pink pen because none of the guys would dare walk off with it.

Belinda Barfield
10-02-2009, 11:11 AM
Now to bring the cost down:D

I've bitten my tongue - or maybe sat on my hands is a better way to put it - on a couple of posts recently regarding Cermark and the cost. I note your grin Brian, so don't please don't take offense. Your post just put the discussion back in my mind.

Cermark is a great product. I have no idea of the cost to produce it. The price is the price. If I need Cermark for a project I factor the cost of Cermak into the project. I really don't appreciate it when a "customer" tells me my price is too high, and I try to keep that in mind when dealing with vendors.

Steve came on board to offer his assistance with the product. Yes, he may have gotten off on the wrong foot with the patent information, but he wasn't aware that mentioning patents on this forum is like poking a hornet's nest with a sharp stick. I'm pretty sure Steve has no control over the price of Cermark, so maybe we can cut him a little slack in that department.

Having said all of that, it would be nice (listening Steve?) if Cermark would produce a smaller sample size or sample kit for those who want to give the product a test drive. It doesn't have to be free, although that would be even better. :D

Brian Robison
10-02-2009, 11:27 AM
My company name is Metal Markers, so we rely on Thermark and Cermark. It's tough to compete with a yag. The time to spray and clean up and the cost of the Cermark / Thermark can really make it VERY tough in these competitive times.

Rob Bosworth
10-02-2009, 12:56 PM
Yes, Brian, you will have trouble with competing against Yag wavelength marking systems. Especially in high volume applications. However, you have a <$ 15,000 piece of capital equipment as opposed to their $ 60,000 to $ 100,000 dollar units. You pay less than a $1 per hour for electricity and consumables, they pay 10 to 20 times that per hour for consumables. You get your service over the phone for free, they have to pay a Tech over $ 125 per hour plus travel and living expenses to come in and fix their system. There are some less expensive Fiber Marking systems that are available, but they are not going to be any faster at marking metal parts than what your machine will do. The only advantage they have over your process is they do not have to spray or wipe off the metal marking spray. But those systems are ~ $ 40,000.

Metal marking compound has opened up a very profitable market for most of us with CO2 laser engraving systems. OK, we aren't all that competitive at high speed, large volume marking, but most of those jobs have very thin margins. Plus, when we do not get those jobs, we don't have to sit for hours and hours complaining that we have to run those "mindless" jobs and not make much money.

Brian, I did not write this to poke you. I think you are in a fabulous niche. Your process will not get all of the jobs, but I would think your margins on particular jobs has to be pretty good.

Brian Robison
10-02-2009, 1:11 PM
All good points, but I still wish the spray was less $$$$$
The Thermark cost about $60.00 for the 6 oz. can. About a third the cost I charge to mark is the thermark.
I'm guessing that the cost won't come down though, now there isn't even any competition. They basically have a monopoly on metal marking compounds. On the flip side, I'm sure that they aren't selling millions of cans a day to reduce cost based on volume. I don't mean to sound so negative, if if wasn't for Cermark, I would have never even looked at a laser.

Rob Bosworth
10-02-2009, 1:54 PM
Brian, that seems to be the most expensive way to purchase metal marking spray. 6 oz. for $ 60 + shipping. I do not have th exaxt figurs in front of me, but if you buy it in bulk, paste, concentrate (whatever they call it in the container) you can dilute the mixture, which allows you to get a better yield. I am even hearing people say they dilute it down to 4 or 5 times the initial thickness.

Also, the thinnest coat seems to work best. I have seen excellent results when you can still see the shiny metal under the Cermark coating.

Dan Hintz
10-02-2009, 2:41 PM
I am even hearing people say they dilute it down to 4 or 5 times the initial thickness.
About 10x for me :)

Brian Robison
10-02-2009, 3:00 PM
Yeah, mix it up, turn on compressor, find air bush, pour mixture in air brush, adjust air brush, spray 2 parts, wait for parts to dry or use hair dryer, place in laser and lase. While the lasers running, dump material back in container, clean out air brush, lasers done, clean parts, dry parts....20 minutes later I've made about $3.00. (I'm really not in a bad mood, I promise):eek:
It works if you have hundreds of parts to do, I rarely get that many, maybe in the future I will. I've tried metal marking materials every which way and you have to look close at your time. I still use Cermark in the little sample bottle I got 6 years ago for one of my items. I've filled the bottle up about 10 times now. The Cermark drys a lot faster than Thermark.

Thad Nickoley
10-04-2009, 9:00 PM
I am not sure what you are marking but I use a cheap throw away foam brush. I would only use a spray gun if i were to do a very large piece.

Richard Rumancik
10-05-2009, 8:42 PM
Brian, you are right; you can't get ahead doing a couple of items with Cermark. For one-offs I suppose the spray can may be acceptable but the cost of the Cermark goes up, so it is material cost or labor cost tradeoffs. When I do one or two it is basically as a favor.

I found that the best market is the promotional products people. Sometimes they get customers who want a multi-tool, bar tool, knife, etc. marked with a customer logo. I have marked Henckels knives and they have stood up in daily use in the knife drawer for over 5 years (I marked a few for myself.) The Cermark is much darker and denser than the Henckels logo - I assume the Henckels logo was done by a YAG at the factory.

I just got a job for 300 knives - if you get larger jobs it can make it worthwhile. Yes, it is a high end product and you have to have a customer who is willing to spend a buck or two for a mark. It is quite labor intensive. Like Belinda, I tell them the price. If it's too high, I can't worry about it.

Anthony Scira
10-05-2009, 9:55 PM
I bought a 250gram container when I bought my laser almost two years ago. I still have over 1/2 the container left. I am in the range of a 6/1 dilution of DNA to Cermark.

I mix it up in a 2 oz jar and use a fine tipped foam brush to apply. Goes on nice, marks nice and comes off easy.

So it prolly comes down to pennies per mark as far as the cermark is concerned. That is not too bad.

Rob Bosworth
10-06-2009, 9:54 AM
A number of years ago, we bought a set of Henckel steak knives at one of the outlet centers in the Twin Cities. Of course, I knew how they applied the famous mark. It wasn't three weeks later, and the black mark was coming off. We now have a wonderful set of steak knives, made by En el with 1.5 joined hands people on each one.

Brian Robison
10-06-2009, 10:07 AM
Now that's strange, we have a set too (I think.)
Very expensive, very nice knives. If you looked at them wrong they would cut you.
Are they now owned by Victorinox?

Steve Rozwood
10-08-2009, 10:21 AM
Thanks for the support Belinda! As for the sample sizes, I think the smallest size we sell is a 50 gram container. I don’t really have a say in the marketing approach with our products, all I can do is put in a suggestion.

Steve

Mike Null
10-08-2009, 10:45 AM
I recently had a Thermark job refused by my customer. I could say i shouldn't have sent it out but the fact is that on these aluminum tags I got a fairly decent mark. The problem was it didn't hold up. I spent literally hours on this job. Spoke to the Thermark people first and followed their recommendations.

I was able to save the deal by switching my customer to anodized aluminum.

On the other hand, Cermark, which I use for steel, has performed admirably and costs a fraction of Thermark due to ability to thin it so much.

But I'm not giving my work away. Yesterday I quoted $35 for two engravings on a hunting knife blade. If I get it fine. If not I won't shed any tears as even at that price it's not a big money maker.

BTW, when I started Cermark did have a sample kit for a very low price and it also contained three glass colors.

John W. Love
10-08-2009, 3:45 PM
BTW, when I started Cermark did have a sample kit for a very low price and it also contained three glass colors.


Yeah, but Mike didn't you start engraving as soon as the Ark hit solid ground? :D

Mike Null
10-08-2009, 5:31 PM
Actually Noah is a couple of years older than me but not all that much.

Brian Robison
10-08-2009, 5:43 PM
I'm running a bunch of parts as we post.
I'm using a Q tip with Cermark thinned about 3 to 1 with DNA. Stupid air brush and touch up paint gun never seem to work right. The Q tip is working very well btw.
I'm also using Thermark from a can. It hasn't been mentioned yet but the Cermark stays on the part better and drys quicker. Thermark turns powdery to the touch.
I like them both, I had better luck with Thermark on aluminum. I run 100% power/ 400 dpi for text / 5% speed. The Epilog suggestion is 35 % speed. I've never come close to that speed.

Dean Fowell
12-23-2010, 8:45 PM
I am on my 3rd can in 3 Months love it 174929

greg lindsey
12-23-2010, 9:53 PM
Well I can tell you that one can of Cermark goes along ways, if you use it properly. I can make about 6k in profit off one can of spray. I do a tremoundous amout of steel tags daily. However, when I have large pcs to do, mostly schematics for one company, I screen print the liquid on, now the profit margin goes through the roof. But getting back to Belinda's original thread which we have all hijacked :) Cermark will work indoors and under water on many materials, maybe forever, I have some parts that are 4 years and counting underwater and in outerspace and so far no complaints, BUT, cermark that is not clear coated will most definately fade when exposed to sunlight (UV) I have seen it fade severly or even disappear within days and sometimes months. I have been usung just plain old clear enamel rustolium for a long time, recently the tech staff at Ferro suggested I use a clear product from Shieldproducts.com called voc clear in spray cans, costs around $17 a can, but piece of mind knowing my outdoor tags wont fade...well..priceles.

Dean Fowell
12-24-2010, 9:51 AM
Thanks for the info I make alot of shipping tags for nuclear power plant but they throw away once shipped,

AL Ursich
12-24-2010, 10:33 AM
I am anxious to get a eBay Etch o Matic I bought, it is in the mail to mark metal. I will try laser mask and laser the stencil and try the Etch o Matic.... Can't Wait..... Looked like a cheaper way to make the stencils. With only 20 watts I needed a alternative to Cermark. More to come.

AL

Dan Hintz
12-24-2010, 10:52 AM
Al,

Interested in your thoughts on it... I've been tempted once or thrice to pick one up, but never had an immediate need for it.

AL Ursich
12-24-2010, 7:51 PM
I picked up the Industrial Marking Kit for about 3 bucks plus shipping and then got just the heads in a second auction. The 2 and 10 AMP heads from Military Surplus on eBay and Chemicals and pads showed up today. No diode unit so I will wait for the Industrial Box unit to show up.

Just got lucky.... Thought of it and searched and caught a 3 day auction... Way less than a new unit...

AL