Kickbacks.

[Karl Brogger]

I've been a cabinetmaker for almost twelve years now. I can't even fathom the number of feet of material I have pushed through a table saw in that time. Yet I can probably count the number of kick backs I've had on my fingers, all ten of them. I honestly do not get it. I also don't use a guard, despise splitters, and loath anything other than the blade, what I'm cutting, and the fence sitting on the table. I also don't believe in push sticks. Today I did use a couple of those padded handle thingy's that came with my jointer for running a 3-1/2" wide raised panel through the shaper, it was too small for the powerfeed to grab it.

I don't know where I'm going with this, but some really basic things need to be done.

1. Keep things picked up and clean. Less clutter means less outside interference. Nothing to trip or slip on.
2. All surfaces need to be well lubed and polished. A slippery table will insure that the only thing you feel is what is going on between the blade and the wood.
3. Never use dull blades, ever.
4. Adjust everything properly. I personally like the fence being toe'd(sp) out away from the blade just a hair.
5. Keep your feed rate up, and moving. Things are more likely to go to hell on you when things are going slowly. If you've got a spot with gnarly grain and it starts to expand and bind as you go through it, muscle in and push past it, or if its near the end and you are getting sqweemish(sp), hit the stop button with your knee I haven't met a table saw yet that can throw something out of my hand.
6. Hands DO NOT belong in front of the blade unless the material is completly clear of it.
7. Never have anyone help you push/pull anything through a saw. It never goes well.
8. Do not use push sticks. I'm willing to go to 1" before I feel that there is too little room for my thumb inbetween the blade and the fence. When I do cut smaller than that alll I do is cut part way through the length of whatever it is I'm cutting. Then push down on the back and tilt it off of the blade. Then finish the cut, and tilt it clear of the blade again. This doesn't work if you're pushing a short piece through, but you shouldn't be putting anything that small through a tablesaw in the first place. I also push with just my thumb on small pieces, and I never pull the thumb away from the fence. The rest of my hand rides on the top of the fence, and I think the last two fingers are hooked on the other side of the fence. Should something go wrong and I do have to let go, I just raise my thumb.
9. Material tight to the fence, tight to the table. It can only get on top of the blade if you allow it to.
10. Don't stand in the path of the material. I leave an opening between my right arm and my body so that if something does have to come flying out, its not into me.
11. And as my father used to say; "pull your head out of your rear, and engage your brain". Sharp objects spinning at a high rate of speed is inherently dangerous, just like standing in falling water on a slippery surface while pour a lubricant like soap all over the floor is inherently dangerous.




I'll swear to whom ever you desire, God, Allah, Budha, Peter Cottontail, whatever, that the blade will not jump out of the saw. I promise. Your body will only come in contact with the blade if you allow it to, or put your body parts in a position to come in contact with the blade. While it may be just an opinion, I feel that too many of these so called safety devices are more of an interference and a crutch than anything. If you keep material tight to the fence and tight to the deck, a splitter is not neccessary. It just isn't. If you keep a good grip on things then the anti kick back pawls are not neccessary. I actually don't like overhead guards for one reason, and that is you can not see the blade, and if its a smaller cut you can not see the material touching the fence.

I really need to get on posting some videos on how to do some of these things like I talked about last year when somebody freaked out about my advice on scoring dado's by dragging them backwards across the top of the head while running.

[JohnT Fitzgerald]

On seeing the title, my first thought was that this was going to be a political thread LOL. Guess I've been reading too much news lately...

Thanks for the tips Karl. A lot of them make loads of sense - no clutter, keep machines well-adjusted, keep blades sharp....but I have to be honest...some of your comments made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. Not saying they're wrong....but cutting 1" with your thumb between the blade and the fence....I've done it too, but it still makes me wonder how long before I sneeze at the worst possible time...

[Karl Brogger]

but it still makes me wonder how long before I sneeze at the worst possible time...

Fear of not being able to count past 9-1/2 keeps me from sneezing. :D

[Dan Friedrichs]

I've been driving cars for almost twelve years now. I can't even fathom the number of miles I have driven in my car in that time. Yet I can probably count the number of near accidents I've had on my tires, all 4 of them. I honestly do not get it. I also drive a Ford Pinto, despise seatbelts, and loath any part of the car other than the steering wheel. I also don't believe in airbags.

...
...
...

I'll swear to whom ever you desire, God, Allah, Budha, Peter Cottontail, whatever, that the car will not run into something else on its own. I promise. Your car will only come in contact with something else if you allow it to, or put your car in a position to come in contact with something else. While it may be just an opinion, I feel that too many of these so called safety devices are more of an interference and a crutch than anything. If you sit in your seat properly, a seatbelt isn't necessary. It just isn't. If you maintain a safe following distance then the anti-lock breaks are not necessary...

(etc)
(etc)


What I said above is just as true as what you said about table saws, and there are some frightening parallels. Would you argue that cars should come without seatbelts, airbags, and ABS?

What you omit is that there is ALWAYS a possibility that something could go wrong, so you should endeavor to decrease the probability of that happening, even if "ideally" the probability is zero. Running your thumb within 1" of the blade is inherently more risky than using a 10" long push stick.

[Jay Brewer]

One inch between the fence and blade, with no push block is just asking for trouble, no matter how much experience you have. I thought the same thing, until ripping narrow strips on a home made table saw I once had. It didn't have enough power to cut my finger off, just half way through, 27 stitches . To this day ( 20 years latter ) I still don't know how it happened. I just looked down to see my finger stopping the blade.

Would you let an employee rip one inch strips with no push block, guard or splitter? My guy dosent even touch the saw.

No matter how careful you are, accidents can happen. Best of luck.

[Karl Brogger]

Do whatever you like, I honestly don't care. I am really sick of reading of people who are literaly afraid of a table saw, more so of those who don't have enough sense to use something dangerous properly. You need to respect what it can do, but being afraid of it will get you into trouble. This recipe for disaster stuff is non-sense. Do you really think I wanna knock a digit off? Seriously?

Its pretty simple people, don't put your finger in the blade, it won't get cut.


What I said above is just as true as what you said about table saws, and there are some frightening parallels. Would you argue that cars should come without seatbelts, airbags, and ABS?
Frightening, key word of the day. Here's a question for you, are those things needed for the operation of the car? Or are they just there for when you screw up? Because personally I'd like to see a few more people fall victim to Darwinism, maybe thin out the pack a bit. Lets go the other direction for the sake of argument. What would happen if your car was more dangerous to drive? If a 12" steel spike were sticking out of the steering wheel, the kind where you had to be careful getting in and out of the car or you'd get snagged on it, would you be more cautious? Would you perhaps not take that trip to the grocery store in the snow? Maybe you'd do a better job checking your blind spot? Maybe think before you act? There's a whole slew of things that could be better if the result of negligence weren't in the favor of the victim.

A favorite saying from a friend: "Ignorance should be painful. If it can't be painful, it should be expensive."

[John Coloccia]

Re: table saws, band saw, Pintos, sneezing and seatbelts.

Good technique is no replacement for sound judgment.

[Dan Friedrichs]

You're absolutely right that when used correctly, a table saw is not dangerous. But that implies that EVERY TIME you use it, you use it PERFECTLY. Are you suggesting that there isn't even a slight possibility that during one of the tens of thousands of times you'll use a table saw in your life, you might make a minor mistake?

Going back to driving - I think I'm a good driver, but I can't guarantee that every single time I drive I can account for every single contingency. Even with the threat of a spiked steering wheel, I may unintentionally get momentarily distracted and hit something. I am human, therefore, I cannot guarantee perfection.

The point is, nothing is perfectly safe unless done perfectly, and being a human, you are physically incapable of being perfect all the time. Thus, the smart thing to do is take steps to reduce your potential risk during those times you are imperfect. A push stick drastically decreases your risk should you make a mistake (or should something unexpected happen, like an earthquake). You can never get the risk to zero, but most people believe the amount of time/money it takes to implement some of these simple safety measures is worth the decreased risk they provide.

[Kevin Groenke]

You're luckier than a lot of folks Karl, I wish you continued good fortune.

For everybody else, I suggest the use of:
guards when possible
splitter or riving knife almost always
(good) push blocks when the above devices get in the way
and
following the sound advice of experienced woodworkers

It might be reasonable to get a second opinion if you're ever given advice that seems questionable, such as:


8. Do not use push sticks. I'm willing to go to 1" before I feel that there is too little room for my thumb inbetween the blade and the fence. When I do cut smaller than that alll I do is cut part way through the length of whatever it is I'm cutting. Then push down on the back and tilt it off of the blade. Then finish the cut, and tilt it clear of the blade again. This doesn't work if you're pushing a short piece through, but you shouldn't be putting anything that small through a tablesaw in the first place. I also push with just my thumb on small pieces, and I never pull the thumb away from the fence. The rest of my hand rides on the top of the fence, and I think the last two fingers are hooked on the other side of the fence. Should something go wrong and I do have to let go, I just raise my thumb.

[Peter Aeschliman]

There definitely is common sense involved with using potentially dangerous tools. But assuming everyone has common sense, there's still an element of risk. Much of life is about mitigating risk. Life insurance. Car insurance. Not putting your investment eggs in one basket. Saving for emergencies. These are all worth-while risk mitigation measures. You may never need them.

Some who do nothing to mitigate risk come through just fine. Some chain smokers don't come down with lung cancer. It still doesn't mean chain smoking is a good idea.

OP, just because you haven't had an injury doesn't mean you won't and it doesn't mean that others who engage in the same behavior as you won't either. The idea is to reduce the odds of an accident happening.

[Dan Hahr]

Karl,

Well, you get some credit for having the guts to post something like that. I suppose you might be curious as to what kind of responses you might get, though I imagine you probably knew what most of them would be like. I, too, agree with most of your points.

However, I had a minor accident when jointing a 5" wide board. My thumb was on the back edge corner and slipped down as the board cleared the cutterhead. It didn't quite make it to the bone, but I didn't know that until I braved up enough to look at it in the ER. Anyway, it eventually grew back...its just not that sensitive anymore.

My next project after that was to make several different kinds of push sticks, for both the table saw and the jointer. They actually made face jointing much easier. I was also suprised at how much easier ripping narrow pieces became.

I agree that most competent professionals can use a table saw without any fear of the saw, kickbacks, etc. However, I adopted the rule that if my hand could slip and engage the blade(s), I use a push stick (most of the time.) I generally pick it up when the stock gets down to 2 - 2.5 inches. Also, I never face joint without a push block in my trailing hand.

I have a Unisaw without any guard, splitter, riving knife, or $1000 brake. I do respect it and know that it is fully capable of dismemberment. The blade does not jump out of it. I watch my body parts when I use it and keep them away from the blade. Simple...

All that being said, I can see why so many people are going to disagree with you on this or any other forum. No one wants to look or sound stupid. And, not many people want to post advice that might lead to someone injuring themselves. While many folks engage this forum to give advice, many thousands more are looking for it. I would guess that most of them are not professionals and are more likely to be novices or perhaps more experienced people that might be less than able to practice perfect form. While I suspect that a 5 hp Unisaw might make music to my ears, I am sure that it makes many folks shudder. Knowing this, I believe that most folks who read this will refrain from posting in full agreement with you, even though they feel exactly the way you do.

As far as the car comparison, you can use all of the available safety features but you are still dead when the oncoming truck veers into your lane. Driving a car will always be much more dangerous than using a table saw, regardless of the safety features. And just because installing a roll cage, side curtain airbags, 4 point seat belt, plexiglass windows, etc. and wearing a crash helmet might help save me in a collision, I am not going to do it. I just drive carefully.

I do like my push sticks, though.

Dan

[Tom Welch]

I agree with what Kevin said.
"For everybody else, I suggest the use of:
guards when possible
splitter or riving knife almost always
(good) push blocks when the above devices get in the way
and
following the sound advice of experienced woodworkers
It might be reasonable to get a second opinion if you're ever given advice that seems questionable"

With the quality of new safety devices now, i.e. riving knives, after market splitters, the new design guards (that auctually work) Even the Saw Stop. These are good things and help to make us safer when using the table saw. We still need to use sound judgement and safe technique.

I will admit that the old blade guards of yesteryear are junk. This year I bought a new cabinet table saw with a riving knife and new style guard. This guard is really sweet to use and works, I auctually use it most of the time.

[jerry nazard]

No push sticks? No splitter? No guard? One inch between fence and blade?

I don't think so. Not for me.

[Sam Layton]

Karl, what I have to say is with the utmost respect to you. You must realize, like someone said, many people on this forum are buying their first table saw today. They have no instruction except for forums like this. I personally think your habits are very flawed. That being said, if you want to do such things thats up to you. However, don't stress that your a professional, and this is the way it should be done. You will get someone hurt...

I am 61 years old. I have used a table saw most of my adult life. It is a serious hobby for me. I am not afraid of the table saw, I do respect it. I have taken many woodworking classes at Cerritos College. They stress safety, safety, safety. I feel that I am safe while working in the shop. However, some things have gone wrong, and I wonder what happened... Fortunately, I have never been seriously hurt.

You say you are sick of reading of people who are afraid of the table saw. I think it is good for a new table saw user to be afraid. With fear comes respect. Remember there are a lot of new users here.

You keep saying, "IF", I say IF you don't practice safety, you will get hurt.

Twelve years is not a long time in a profession. I worked at my profession for twenty nine years (not woodworking). I hope after twenty nine years you are ok.

Sam

[Brian Kent]

I don't think I can ever guarantee that a piece of wood I am holding will not pinch the back of a blade. Wood moves.

[Larry Edgerton]

Karl, you and I would get along just fine I believe, and I do agree with you that some of the safety practices are inherently more dangerous that just "doing it".

What I have come to realize here is that, and if you will remember back to when you first ran a peice across a tablesaw you will know what I mean, that this is a hobbiest forum and so most are still at that point, and many will never do enough to go beyond that point. And that is OK.

What you are hearing is all the safety crap that has been pounded into their head by what the lawyers made writers put in their "How To" books, and as hobbiests they still believe all that they read as gospel as they do not have enough experience to do anything but follow what they have read. And this is a good thing, as the teacher is not there to watch, and they are not trying to make a profit.

I work much the same way you do, but I would not recommend some of my practices to a first timer. I saw a picture of you on your bike, so I know you too are one, accordinated, and two, a bit of a risk taker. Not all people are the same and there are some that should just never be any where near a saw at all. One of the hardest things for me to learn in my construction/woodworking business is that not all people can do what I do. I used to get so aggravated because something was so simple to me, so why can't they just do as I ask? But I eventually learned that that is why I am in the position that I am in and that is why they work for me, because of the difference. It doesn't make us better, just better at our job. When it comes to doing the bookwork, I find where my own limitations are. ;) It is the same thing here on the forum, some will never be at a level where thy are "one with the saw" so to speak, and so they need to be extra cautious to make up for their lack of accordination/experiance.

I do not contribute much anymore because I do things as you do and am tired of the safety Nazi's harping all of the time. Just as there are people that have different levels of driving abilities, the same goes in the shop. Can you imagine the average driver at 200 mph? I have been over 200 several times, but I would not want to see most of the people that I know going that fast and would not recommend that they try.

There is a lot of parroted advice on here that is BS, but its a more constructive way to spend time than watching TV.

By the way, I am missing a finger..........

[Karl Brogger]

There is a lot of parroted advice on here that is BS, but its a more constructive way to spend time than watching TV.

By the way, I am missing a finger..........

And I bet you know exactly what you did wrong.

I too am appalled by the amount of dis-information on here as well.

[Jason White]

Twelve years is not a long time in a profession. I worked at my profession for twenty nine years (not woodworking).



I personally know carpenters who are 3rd or 4th generation with 30+ years of experience. Some of them would agree with the OP's opinions, others would not.

A couple of them are also missing a finger or two.

JW

[John Coloccia]

Larry: I wouldn't normally ask, but it seems very relevant to the topic. How did you lose your finger?

[Dan Friedrichs]

I too am appalled by the amount of dis-information on here as well.

Like what? You think "use push sticks" is dis-information [sic]?

[Matt Ranum]

Being afraid of a tool is worse than having a healthy respect for the tool IMO. My saw too has no guards on it what so ever...and I treat is as such. I have had things happen on tools that startled me but I was also alert enough to know what was happening and avoid injuries. Lots of people around here think a RAS is a dangerous tool, its no more dangerous than anything else. Frank Klausz keeps a painted section on the table on his thats several inches wide as a reminder NOT to put your fingers there.

When I was 18 I got a job in a vegetable canning plant. I screwed up and got a serious injury to my hand. Since then I am very safety conscious even though it doesn't sound like it. I don't believe its necessary to have safety devices in order to be safe. Just watch what the hell your doing. I drove truck professionally for close to a million miles and never had an accident. I know drivers that could barely make it out of the yard without one. The difference? Always be alert and on the defensive.

Now that I've most likely jinxed myself.....I'm heading for work.:p

[John Pratt]

I have OCD when it comes to shop safety. Especially since I have to watch over others in the shop who are very much novices at using power tools, But even to the safest person, accidents can happen.

This accident was minor compared to others but it shows they can happen anywhere in the shop. I recently purchase the PriceCutter 70 piece router bit set from Eagle America. I needed to augment my top of the line bits with some that I am not as concerned about the novices in my shop tearing up. The bits are placed in plastic holders in the case and they are very tightly wedged to keep them from falling out. While try to get one of the bits out, I wiggled and wiggled the darn thing and finally my fingers slipped along the length or the cutter. The bit came out and sailed across the floor, but left me with a 1 1/2" gash down my index finger all the way to the bone. After I bled like a stuck pig for a few minutes I went to the clinic and got bandaged up.

Demonstrated a few things;

1. Regardless of your experience level and safety conciousness level, even the safest person can get injured in the shop.

2. Even though power tools are where we hedge most towards safety, you can get hurt even in the most mundane areas of the shop.

While others disregard long practiced safety practices, I have my shop safety rules in place for my benefit and more so for the benefit of my shop workers/employees. If one of them is injured in a stupid mistake like I was, it is not only them that feels the pain. Because I am the boss, I have to answer to those injuries in the shop. For those just working in the home shop, if by some chance, you do make a mistake or the unforseen happens, Who else does it affect. Will you kids no longer be able to play catch with you or some other activity, will you Wife now worry every time you go into the shop, etc...

[harry strasil]

John, I too got that set, I removed each bit and wiped the sticky oil from the shanks with denatured alcohol, now they slip in and out easily.

Karl, Larry and I would get along fine I think. We respect our power tools and we know that they are dangerous, that is the most important part.

[Bob Carreiro]

Hi Karl,

You have a lot of nerve to be upfront about your practices. I, too, do not use blade guards or riving knives, although occassionally, I use push sticks on narrow stock.

In my early years I worked as a cabinet maker in a few shops and as a ships joiner in a few small shipyards around New England and never - not once - saw blade guards or riving knives used. To reveal these "ungodly practices" always causes an uproar among those who choose to do otherwise. As you implied, when you follow some simple, no nonscense rules as you've stated (and I didn't read them all) and respect the machine (meaning you have to know its characteristics and what to expect and when), then you can master the operation. Yet when all is said & done, you cannot argue about unforeseen events occurring that are not under your control, such as the time I nearly severed my foot (yes, that's right) on a table saw! Sometimes, though far and few in between, these unexplainable, or "who would've thought..." kinda things happen. It's all about the levels of risk. When you master a machine, the level of risk is low and close to non-existant.

Thanks for your honesty and courage.


Bob Carreiro
Poulsbo, WA

[Doug Shepard]

Well I concur with a lot of your points but I gotta disagree about the push sticks. I just dont like getting my fingers that close to the blade. I probably draw the line around 4" or so. Anything closer and I start looking for a push stick.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Well, Karl, I can say that you are WAY more experienced than I ever will be, but, I would also have to disagree that a guard, riving knife, splitter push sticks are bad. I DO own a saw with a brake and all the safety features that you loathe. I also have Grripper blocks or what ever they're called, to further keep my fingers out of the blade. I do frequently rip stock 1/4" wide. Without the use of any of those safety features, I would not be able to do it.

Personally, I do whatever I can to keep all my fingers. I know 3 people who don't have all thier fingers....

[Peter Aeschliman]

...such as the time I nearly severed my foot (yes, that's right) on a table saw!

Uh, what?!? Can you please elaborate on that story? :D:confused::eek:

[Myk Rian]

When you master a machine, the level of risk is low and close to non-existant.
Sorry, but I can't agree with that. When you master a machine, you get complacent about safety. "I've done that on this machine so many times....." is the attitude. Machines are never safe.

[Nissim Avrahami]

I think that we have to make this post "Sticky" so every beginner, amateur and un-experienced guys will learn from it....and with the promised videos, it's going to be a "Hit"...

I would just change the title to "Table saw safety" or "How to work *Correctly* on a table saw"...

As for me, 13 years in the hobby, no kickback, no "contact" with the blade...

Yes, I use the Riving knife, Blade guard, Push sticks, Feather board and Short fence...

What one must understand is that, not everybody can be an F-16 pilot, Astronaut or F-1 Driver so - if one has the ability and capability to work without all the safety gear, the other one maybe doesn't have this characters...

Are you going to tell all those "incapable" - "If you cannot work without the safety gear without being injured - don't do woodworking???"...

Here are a few pics of how I do it...Yeap, a lot of safety gear but hey, if I feel safe and relaxed when working on the TS...and, please note that I don't see how the blade is cutting but, it does....

BTW, you can push the workpiece and hold it attached to the rip fence but - if it is a "reaction wood" and it springs out, I don't thing that you'll have enough power to hold it attached to the fence and even the riving knife might not help you...

Regards
niki

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb151/matsukawa/TS%20Short%20fence%20rip/0004.jpg


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb151/matsukawa/TS%20Short%20fence%20rip/0006.jpg


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb151/matsukawa/TS%20Short%20fence%20rip/0009.jpg

[Peter Aeschliman]

very cool idea for your "featherboard". I like that.

A little off topic, but I've never understood why TS fences aren't made like yours more often- your fence projects out towards the worker and hangs off the front of the table... I really like that because I sometimes have trouble keeping larger workpieces against the fence since there's only about 10" of fence before the front of the blade...

I think when I build my outfeed table, I'll build an infeed table like yours too!

Thanks for posting those pics.

[Larry Fox]

....Darwinism...

Funny you should mention that as the Darwin Awards were the very first thing I though of when I read your post.

My opinion -- your shop, your hands / face / gut / crotch / whatever - do whatever you want. My shop, my hands / face / gut / crotch / whatever - guards where I can, splitter, push sticks / blocks almost 100% of the time.

[Norman Pyles]

Hey Karl, are you as good with a fishing pole as you are with a table saw?

[Floyd Mah]

5000 rpm x 10 inches x 3.14
divided by 60 seconds / min results in a rough estimate of the tooth of a
saw blade's speed. Approximately 2616 inches per second.

Car travelling at 100 miles per hour is moving at
5280 x 100 feet per hour x 12 inches per ft
divided by 3600 seconds per hour = 1760 inches per second.

I would wait until it was at my funeral before I would brag that I risked by life or limb by putting either at risk that close to something travelling at 148 miles per hour. I've had objects thrown by saw blades and it (or **it) happens before you can even think.

[Chris Yarish]

I used to race motocross and currently do the same with downhill mountain bikes....both sports are very dangerous. People have lost their lives or become paralyzed doing what I do for fun.

I have reached a level of near mastery in both of them, but never once removed or compromised any of the myriad of pieces of protective armor that I began with, nor have I ever been so disillusioned as to believe that my level of mastery entails a low to non-existent level of risk.
I just don't.

Sure my helmet is hot and at times uncomfortable, my Leatt neck brace was almost prohibitively expensive and sometimes makes sighting up a corner difficult, my knee / shin pads have a pressure point in them that leaves a bruise after I use them and the seam in my gloves causes me to have a blister on my hand.

I can point to dozens of "problems" and inconveniences that stem from my safety apparel, but I can also point to dozens of potential things that can happen as a result of not using them. The benefits far outweigh the costs, both in severity and magnitude--concussions, brain damage, paralysis, smashed bones, rocks embedded in my palms, etc....I'll take inconvenience, blisters, costly Visa bills and the like over more permanent damages.

There are things that can happen at any time and will happen independent of my level of mastery in the respective sports. That is why accidents are defined as "unexpected and undesirable events, especially one resulting in damage or harm."

I, for one, don't applaud the OP's opinion because I think it's not only arrogant to believe what he believes, it is, as another poster stated, irresponsible as a veteran of the craft to market this flawed and old fashioned perspective in a venue where novices seek expert advice.

I'm unsure where he thinks mastery, experience, or "being careful" supercedes using safety devices and mechanisms that were designed, not by agents of litigation, but by experienced manufacturers and craftspeople alike. The Sawstop is a perfect example. He, along with others of his ilk, seem to ignore one very valuable piece of information--wood and machinery are inherently unpredictable things to work with.

Saying "I have worked successfully without an injury for "x" number of years, therefore my practices are 100% safe and safety measures are a bigger vice than they are a virtue" is a bizarre standard by which to evaluate or discuss the broader issue of shop safety. There is no such thing as "low to non-existent" risk when dealing with so many unpredictable variables. Does he think that anyone who gets injured, regardless of their years of experience, just didn't pay enough attention, or just wasn't careful enough? No, he is just one of the very individuals who will get injured and become the identity of those he has compartmentalized and mischaracterized as "careless". Control is an illusion maintained by those who believe they possess it....until they no longer have it.

The OP might conclude that he has control over all the variables that he needs to have control over, but wood is unpredictable. Machines are unpredictable. The accuracy, dependability and wear patterns of his machines are unpredictable....even his own awareness is unpredictable.

Accidents don't happen intentionally, and they aren't selective in who they affect. They happen randomly to people of all levels of experience. Pretending that you are immune, based solely on past experiences, is naive and irresponsible.

What you are is lucky.


May good fortune continue to follow you.
.....and novice woodworkers not.

[John Coloccia]

The Sawstop is a perfect example. He, along with others of his ilk, seem to ignore one very valuable piece of information--wood and machinery are inherently unpredictable things to work with.

What's worse is the attitude that using such devices makes you less of a woodworker....maybe less of a man, I suppose. That's certainly the implication, esp. with the SawStop. As an engineer, a pilot and a woodworker, I know that safety is never absolute. "Safe" conditions are created by using redundant layers of protection such that it requires multiple failures to create an unsafe condition. Just because someone might perform an operations thousands of times without injury doesn't mean that the operation is safe. Any time it requires only one small failure of man or machine for an injury to occur, that is inherently an unsafe condition regardless of the skill of the operator.

So for example, as a pilot if I'm expecting to complete a flight in good weather conditions, I would not take off into marginal weather even if all indications are that the weather will not worsen or will improve at my destination. That would reduce my safety margin to nill. I could decide, however, to take off into great weather conditions even knowing that the weather may worsen a bit at my destination. That gives me safety margin. I can always decide to land short if I don't like what I see enroute or if weather at my destination unexpectedly becomes marginal. If you start out with bad weather (i.e. no margin), things need to go perfectly and/or you have to catch some lucky breaks.

I also fly aerobatics. I've never broken an airplane in the air, but I still wear a parachute. Aerobatic flying is inherently "unsafe" in that you're stressing the aircraft right up to it's design limits. A little bit of turbulence at the wrong time, yanking too hard at the wrong time, or just a plain ole' screw up can certainly cause very important bits and pieces to separate from the aircraft (wings, tails, etc). I'd like to think that it's a bit more than just luck that I haven't broken anything. I'd like to think that it's skill and training that allows me to push to the limit, but no further. I still wear a parachute when I'm boring holes in the sky, though. I'm not comfortable assuming that both I and the airplane will perform perfectly every single time. Too risky for me.

Pushing a board through with your thumb about a 1/2" away from a blade, for example, seems excessively and needlessly risky to me, regardless of perfect technique. That's just my opinion.

And that's my take.

[Karl Brogger]

Tried to help you folks out, I get a bunch of attitude in return. It saddens me that I'll keep having to wade through post after post of people un-willing to get the most from thier equipment, or skills. But if you enjoy wasting time in the shop go for it. I hate it, have for a long time. I just do it for the paycheck, so anything that can save me time I'm going to do it, and instruct those under my employ to do so as well.


edit- and for those with the what if approach. Sorry, there really are no surprises in this. Its the same crap over, and over, and over again. As for that time I don't pay attention, well then maybe I should've paid attention when that time comes, and that'll be a nice reminder to do it correctly the next time.

You guys take something that really is simple, and make it really complicated. I used to tell new guys who would get something that they thought was tough to build that all it is, is glue, wood, and nails. Everytime, its the same thing, slightly different shape, maybe a different color, that's about it.

[Chris Yarish]

Tried to help you folks out, I get a bunch of attitude in return. It saddens me that I'll keep having to wade through post after post of people un-willing to get the most from thier equipment, or skills. But if you enjoy wasting time in the shop go for it. I hate it, have for a long time. I just do it for the paycheck, so anything that can save me time I'm going to do it, and instruct those under my employ to do so as well.


edit- and for those with the what if approach. Sorry, there really are no surprises in this. Its the same crap over, and over, and over again. As for that time I don't pay attention, well then maybe I should've paid attention when that time comes, and that'll be a nice reminder to do it correctly the next time.

You guys take something that really is simple, and make it really complicated. I used to tell new guys who would get something that they thought was tough to build that all it is, is glue, wood, and nails. Everytime, its the same thing, slightly different shape, maybe a different color, that's about it.

I guess if you post 90% valuable information on any message board and 10% garbage, you'll have posters comment on the garbage.

If I were a relationship expert, I could write a long essay on some pretty tried and true ways to romance and seduce a woman. But if I got to the part when you're rounding home base with the lady and I neglect to talk about a condom, I better get some strong opinons on that last part.
Forget the 90% valuable information was even said....all anybody will walk away with remembering is the 10% garbage.

So, if you make claims to be a professional, a veteran, or an experienced individual at any craft or profession, and you offer advice as though it should have cerdibility among your peers, don't lash out at us if we don't agree with the soundness of your advice.

There are a lot of people with missing fingers, holes in garage doors, broken digits and bruised insides because they thought and acted as you do, but lived to dole out a few level headed warnings to the rest of us.

[Chris Yarish]

What's worse is the attitude that using such devices makes you less of a woodworker....maybe less of a man, I suppose. That's certainly the implication, esp. with the SawStop.

That is almost always one of the implicit messages by the anti-safety measure camp.

In this case, the gentleman is too concerned with profitibility and productivity to "waste" his time with guards and push sticks, and instructs his people to follow his example. Looks like Darwin teaches woodworking.

It's unfortunate that this is the logic--that being safe costs precious time. Well, how long does it take for me to pop out a splitter from my TS to make room for using a dado blade? About 15 seconds (+blade change, but that time is static). How about my table saw blade guard? Maybe 8 seconds. How long to use a push stick? Same as using my hand.

The time difference, if I were to have to remove all safety features and use a push stick, would be a whopping 23 seconds. Placing it back on, adds a little bit more time for the splitter, but a bit less for the guard, so it evens out.
I'm not willing to lose any fingers or launch any material into myself or my shop for 46 seconds of saved time. I can do a lot of things differently to make up for that lost time.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I know I've been guilty of cracking jokes at the sawstop, but still I don't know how this turned into such an argument... heh

Karl is just giving safety TIPS and his own opinion on what works for him. Everyone that reads it will use their own judgement whether to use his advice or not.

If there's a novice woodworker that is going to do whatever they read without thinking about it first, then maybe that person deserves to lose a digit..

Anyways, Ill-informed safety can prove disastrous as well... There's always the horror stories about people losing their HANDS from wearing leather gloves when working with machines.

I'd rather just be a "gatherer" of safety information and then use what's right for the occasion.

If I'm swimming in a pool I'm not going to wear a life vest because I know how to swim. Though in another instance, if I was on jet ski or raft in choppy waters, chances are I'd probably be wearing a life vest.

It all depends on the person and circumstance. There is no right or wrong, though some choices have a higher risk than others.

That's what this thread is all about right? Taking risks?

P.S. - It doesn't make "Mr. Safety" any less of a woodworker because he wears eye and ear protection sharpening a pencil. It just makes him a "safer" woodworker.

[Larry Frank]

I found this entire thread to be a little frightening. However, each person using such equipment should take the time to understand it, the dangers and then decide what precautions that they want to take and the risks that they want to assume. For my part, I will use the push sticks, hold downs and other safety devices.

I worked for almost 40 years in the business of making steel and being around liquid steel that was over 3000°F. Yes, I was very comfortable about knowing what was dangersous and what not to do. However, I wore every safety piece of equipment that I could. Even though I thought that I knew what I was doing, there was always that chance.

In addition, it was managements responsibility to make certain that every employee was properly trained and wearing their safety equipment. I would be very cautious of telling an employee not to use certain safety equipment such as the guards on a table saw. That appears to be a quick way to be on the wrong end of a law suit.

[John Shuk]

I witnessed a kick back (W/injury) and a cut off finger tip. Both happened within a half hour of each other and both were inexperienced operators. I don't want any part of either. I'll stick with the safety stuff. I've NOT run multitudes of bd ft past a table saw blade and I know that I'm the weak link. Knowing that I try to put as many things on my side as possible.

[Paul Ryan]

I applaud Karl for his willingness shall we say "go against the grain". I am not affraid to say that some of Karl's practices I use as well. No guard, fence slightly toe'd out, and others. Karl never once said "this is how every one should do it" he just described what works for him.

I don't believe being skittish of the hunk of metal spinning around at 3400 RPM makes you unsafe, it makes you respect what it is. I am a Sawstop owner and not afraid to say it. I believe since the saw is every bit as good and anything else and it has a saftey device that can prevent a catastophy in the event of having a "bad hair day". That it is a smart tool to own. I too believe that many of the saftey practices preached here are way over kill. But that is just my opinion.

I will do as I do and feel that with anything there are acceptable and unacceptable risks. I have done many stupid things in my life, some that many will think were unacceptable risks. To me I like to think of them as learning experiences. As I get older the unacceptable risks seem to grow. I think of that as wisdom. But I also think one can be too saftey conscience. If you fall in that category you will never learn the hard way. And those lessons are the most valuable that can be learned. But it is up to us as individuals to decide what is an acceptable risk and what it unacceptable.

[Stephen Edwards]

I reckon 10 outta 11 ain't a bad score in Karl's first post in this thread. Number 8 is bad advice even for a pro, especially coming from a "pro", IMO. To each their own.

As others have said, and I agree, most people on this and other forums are here to learn and get sound advice. While I agree that a lot of the safety techniques that are stressed here aren't for me: blade guard, splitter, etc. I would never criticize anyone else for using them or for suggesting that other people use them. If I tire of reading those posts, I read something else. One doesn't have to "wade through them". One can simply ignore them.

To me, the most telling and revealing post in this thread is Karl's statement: "But if you enjoy wasting time in the shop go for it. I hate it, have for a long time. I just do it for the paycheck, so anything that can save me time I'm going to do it, and instruct those under my employ to do so as well."

My guess is that the vast majority of people who visit this forum and who spend time in their shops don't hate it and don't consider their time spent in the shop as wasted time, even the extra time that some people spend to use all of the safety gadgets and features available. If a person hates what they do and are doing it only for a paycheck, well, what can I say? Furthermore, most people on the forums probably aren't doing it for a paycheck.

What I don't understand is why it would bother someone for other people to use whatever safety precautions and devices are at their disposal, should they decide to do so. I don't use them all, but it's no skin off my (pick your body part) if someone else does.

My advice to people who are reading this thread and who are concerned about proper use of the table saw: Use the good advice that Karl gives in his first post and ignore the bad advice. There's no reason whatsoever to not use a push stick when the conditions call for one. It's just common sense.

[Eric Larsen]

I run my saw with no guard and no splitter, although I'd like a decent splitter. My saw is of the "splitters and guards are useless" vintage.

But no push-shoe? No featherboard? Not a chance. I gotta have my push shoe and featherboard. Push sticks are basically worthless, in my opinion. I want something that holds the wood down as I push it forward. The first thing I made is a push shoe, and I'm going to make another one soon, because this one as seen "too much action" as it were.

As far as Karl's reasoning, I can see it. I can appreciate it. But what would Karl suggest to a newbie like me?

I bought a used PM66 because I couldn't afford a new SawStop. (Still can't.) There are no community college classes in my area. I don't have a veteran carpenter relative who can show me the ropes. I had to tune my equipment using only information that I found online. (Here, basically.)

I'm just a 40-something guy who needed a table saw to work on his new house. There are probably a lot more of guys like me here, than guys who have a family tradition of cabinet makers to teach them the trade.

Bottom line -- I do not fear my 5hp saw. If I had fear, I'd shell out the money to have a professional do the work. I respect the saw, and it's power. And I've learned what's safe, what isn't, and how to differentiate between the two.

I don't think the "safety first" crowd is wrong. But I think manuals were written with the assumption that we're all idiots. I agree with you on that point.

But these days, there's nobody around to tell even a newbie Sawstop owner to think twice about making that cut. Websites like SMC are all people like me have -- and I for one am happy I found this place.

[Jeremy Bryant]

I first would like to say hello to all on this site. I have been using wood working tools for 23 years. Only a couple of times did I personally have a kickback. Still got my 10 digits! I don't use a guard, splinter. I most certainly do use a push stick, push shoe when the time calls. Over the years I have seen 4 table saw accidents. All those resulted in less a full finger. Seen a guy jam his hand in a circular saw when the guard failed to come down and was switching from a bevel cut. That got 4 fingers. Most recent a "newbie cabinetmaker" was using a shaper and forgot to switch the direction of the bit. Went to feed and the board got thrown from his hands. Sadly he lost the tips of all 4 fingers in 1 swipe! Now, all these I can say were stupid mistakes. The main reason was not having the proper respect for these tools. The closer your little nubbies are to what is cutting the more at risk you are! I don't think one should ever discourage ones thought for safety.

[Larry Edgerton]

Actually there is no way in hell a Pro can do things the same way a hobbiest does. Take for example the tablesaw safety device pictures that are posted in this thread. I will have that cut set up and made long before that can be set, and to tell you the truth that contraption looks a lot more dangerous to me that just cutting the board. You have just introduced several things more to get in the way and go wrong, but that aside, I would have been out of business a long time ago if that is what I had to go through every time I made a new cut.

I don't post as often any more because even though I have proven solutions to problems that I have worked out in 34 years of professional woodworking, they don't meet with what the hobbiests on here have read a book or two. There are a couple of people on this forum that I would probably knock on their tush if they said to my face what they feel they can say on a forum, hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. There are many who I value their opinion such as Karl, Harry, David, Wolf, George and so on but by and large there is a lot of misinformation perpetuated by people that want to be heard.

Get this point: Being a pro is not the same as being a hobbiest!

We have to be faster, and the knowledge that we have amassed allows us to work at a different level. We know what a machine will do in almost any situation, we can look at a peice of wood and tell what it will behave like when machined, and like it or not we have to run some acceptable risks to stay in business. We are not building multiples of a thousand for the most part, and so can not spend an inappropriate amount of time on each piece. There is a deadline imposed by simple economics when you are doing one offs that is simply you can only charge what the market will bear, that being our reality. Food on the table and house payment made is the carrot that drives us just like many of you that work in other fields, but the reality of our business is that we need to produce X to pay Y.

Karl "is" in a dangerous position though. He is bored it seems and that can lead to unattentiveness, and that can spell disaster. Boredom is in my opinion the most dangerous thing you can have in the shop.

Karl, I did a few years of just building cabinets, and I agree it is the most boring thing one can do. I found my mind wandering to my dirt bike at times when I should have been paying attention to what I was doing, over and over and over again. Hate to break it to you but as you get older it doesn't get better, it just gets more boring. I switched back to high end construction and one offs, and although I make much less money, I am much happier with what I do for a living. I am recreating all the old exterior trim now for a 130 year old house out of Azek, and although I hate the smell of the stuff I am learning new things and meeting a challange. He contacted a few companys that said that what I am doing could not be done, so I take great pleasure in proving them wrong, and it makes my life interesting. Maybe you need to look in a new direction? Money is not everything, and life goes by in a flash, so try to leave a trail of pleasant memorys behind you. In the end I think that is more important.

Gotta get to the shop.......

[Chris Yarish]

Karl "is" in a dangerous position though. He is bored it seems and that can lead to unattentiveness, and that can spell disaster. Boredom is in my opinion the most dangerous thing you can have in the shop.


....what he said.

[george wilson]

I think the word RESPECT should be substituted for FEAR in many of these posts. I have seen someone who actually FEARED the table saw.Her fear was such that it could really result in her getting cut. She stood on the right hand side of the fence while trying to push wood along the left hand side of it. She couldn't even see if the wood was against the fence from where she stood. With one hand,she shielded her face,and leaned as far away from the saw as she could,though wearing a shield.



She had a Master's degree in furniture conservation. She came into my shop to borrow my saw. This stupidity on her part really irked me,and I reported to her boss that she need training before she cut her hand off. She should have had such training years before!

THAT is fear. Respect is what these other guys are talking about. I have been using a saw for 54 years,and have had 2 minor accidents. Fortunately,I still have all 10.

I do use a push stick on anything that gets my fingers too close to the blade. Probably wasting a few seconds reaching for it.

Cutting 1" strips without use of a push stick is just way too close for comfort.

The situation I like the least is on those few occasions when for some reason,the blade overheats and starts FLAPPING. That is especially when I don't want my hands near the blade.

I had a very low powered saw when I was just getting out of college,and had no money. It's blade bogged down,then the capacitor kicked in,causing the blade to jump back to full RPM. I got my right hand pulled backwards across the blade. This cut through 2 of my fingernails and into my fingers. I recovered fully,but it was over a year before I could comfortably dial a telephone again.

Being a guitar player,and maker,I was lucky that I didn't ruin my hand. Best to use a push stick. That aside,I agree with most of what Karl listed.

[John Thompson]

I will congratulate Karl on making 10 out of 11 excellent suggestions on TS safety. #8 about do not use a push-stick is the only one I find ludicrous. There is no reason to put your hands that close the the blade when a push-stick.. clamp can eliminate doing so. Not all push-sticks are equal as you can make them in various forms and configurations with ply in a matter of minutes wtih a BS.

Karl also mentioned something I don't believe many caught. He uses a Power Feed on his shaper. Congrats on that. A good number of the cabinet shops in my area and there are many use one on the TS. Many have gone to sliders or SS for liability issues. A Power Feed is much safer than a blade brake in the sense a blade break can only eliminate injury from actual contact with the blade. It does nothing to stop kick-back and the injury that can result from that. A power feed can elinate injury from kick-back.

But.. to classify those that use safety devices as a waste of time is ridiculous.. classify them as Afraid of their machine is also. And I don't care who you are or what you do for a living... nobody is going to look at a piece of wood and determine with 100% efficiency if it is reaction wood. Nobody is going to be able to totally sense kick-back before the fact and react quickly enough to stop it once it does. Nobody.. not pros .. not seasoned WW with experience.. not beginners. you can master TS techniques but.. you can never totally master the machine combined with wood that has a mind of it's own.

I use safety devices and push sticks as I only starting using them with the exception of push sticks about ten years ago. The first 30 years I was alert and somewhat lucky. I have been gut kicked 5 times and had hundreds of off-shoots launch off the rear of saw. Keeping the rear lane clear avoided injury from those with the worst being a piece of wood driven through two layers of sheet rock wall.

I am not Afraid of my 5 HP TS.. I was not afraid of a Wadkins 12 HP TS when I did a year stint in a cabinet shop in the late 70's until I became totally bored with in a month. But I use safety devices and push sticks. Push sticks are used to well.. push. The stock can be held down with a simple block of wood clamped over the stock and a couple of quick-clamps on the fence.

As far as the devices shown in this thread... Karl mentioned measuring out to such a point.. measuring back to a point and subtracting 1/8". Why not simply measure from one end.. make a mark.. lay on sled and cut. That took a shorter time than the solution of the Pro. And what is in the way?

[harry strasil]

I do use a pushstick on narrow stuff, but this should be put on every machine at the factory.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/odd/cid_89658D568C9148C4B4D882560F73058.jpg

my last post in this thread.

[Bob Carreiro]

In my original post to this thread I mentioned an industrial accident I had nearly cutting my foot off on a TS. Peter and Myk wanted to hear how that happened. So here it is.

THE STAGE:
At 8 AM on October 19, 1971, I was working as a ships joiner in a small shipyard in Rhode Island. We were cutting 4x8 sheets of asbestos with Formica laminated on one side which was used to cover bulkheads and overheads in the living quarters of this new ("Love Boat") kinda ship recently placed in the water from the assembly shop. The "break-down machinery" was set up for the cabinet makers on an open-air deck under an extended over hang topside. The saw was a simple portable frame of 4 legs hinged to folding rails. The top, with motor mounted to its underside, simply dropped onto pins on the leg tops. The sides were open. Carbide blades in those days were wide - this one, 9/32" and a 14" dia. Most was below table and too big to extend much above the finger plate. When asbestos is cut (this was before it was hazardous to your health), it's dust expands expodentially and falls like huge snow flakes around the TS. Falling on a wet (from morning dew), unpainted steel deck, makes for a very slushy and slippery surface. As my partner was pushing the sheet through the saw, I was on the back end, slowly walking backwards holding up the sheet as it was fed.

THE EVENT:
Suddenly, my left foot slipped out from under me and came up under the TS, just "touching" the bottom of the saw blade. Since I was on the back side, the bottom of the blade was rotating up and it IMMEDIATELY threw my foot up through the finger plate causing the plate to ricochet off the overhead and overboard (I think) as a wide, thin line of "red" spayed on the white overhang above us. Here I was, laying on my back; my left foot sticking up through the finger plate throat, as the blade effortlessly spun through the middle of my workboot. I tried to "push" the TS away with my right foot as I simotaneously tried to "pull" my left leg out, but my foot was wedged and the pain was..., well, horrific. My partner dove for the extention chord.

THE AFTERMATH:
I was lucky. I was in Providence Hospital for two weeks (old medicine) and the rest is just history. I still have my foot, all-be-it a little "narrower" than my right foot since a 1/4"+ "groove" was taken out of its mid-section. And I can't bend my toes today and have to look down when standing on ladders to ensure my foot is far enough onto the rung, since I have little feeling left on it's underside, but otherwise, it seems to work OK. Two years ago I finally had to have some corrective surgery and the outcome of that introduced blood clots into my system, which in turn, caused a couple of TIA's ("mini strokes") that nearly took my life.

Back to topic: All of us have a responsibility to ourselves and our families to be safe, to take the necessary precautions and maintain the abilities God gave us for a happy, fruitful life. Some of us go about that differently. I have experienced kickbacks, quite a few, through collective years: raising a panel on a shaper "threw" the board up and away as my left hand went flying into the cutter. It stopped short and the cutter simply removed the fingerprints on the tips of tree fingers - no blood drawn. I was observant, recognized the danger zones and was prepared to compensate for whatever the machine would do. Running narrow pieces thru the TS with dull blades is "asking" for kickbacks (but who hasn't used dull blades, either thru laziness or being cheap or broke?) and the TS's do what physics dictate - it kicks the stock right back at ya! But I don't stand in the danger zone: I know where the danger zones are and take the necessary preventive actions. I'm saying all this becuse we have the ability to master the opertions we subject our machines too. I don't fear the equipment. I orchestrate every peice of the operation and tell the machine what I want it to do and how to do it. I do not need safety guards and shrouds, riving knives, and all manner of featherboards and clamping apparatus meant for the week-end warrior (most is consumer driven products, not for the professional) becasue I plan for what I'm doing, how I'm going to do it and know what the machine may do under the demands I subject it to. I do not fear the machine. It better fear me, or it's out the door of this guy's shop!

Be safe. Plan your work. Work the plan. Know your equipment and covet the knowledge of those who went on before you.


happy woodworking,
Bob Carreiro
Poulsbo, WA

[Karl Brogger]

Now thats bizzaar(sp) Bob. I wanted to ask how someone gets a foot in a saw, now I know.


Here's what I do not like about push sticks. You guys seem to think I'm some wild animal, maddly throwing wood without mercy at a table saw. Nobody, I don't give a rats behind what kind of push stick it is, can tell me that its going to grip the material as well or as sentively as my hand. And how exactly does that push stick get into your hand? Do you blindly look for it while your piece is sitting there just itching to cause trouble, or worse do you look away mid cut? Both of which are hell worthy trespasses in my book. And yes I realize your going to be setting it right there next to the fence, but the point is you still have to take attention away from cutting and that is a tradgic mistake. Every says "that one time....", is full of it. Plain and simple. "What about reactive grain?" First off, I'm assuming your talking about the stuff that has so much tension on it that it tries to explode in the saw when you start cutting and releasing tension. What about it? Sure if you sit there and ponder what is going to happen, something is going to go to hell while your playing Hamlet with the stock in you hand. Did you look at the piece before cutting it? I do, always, every time. There is no "that one time", why, because I don't like bleeding, and I'm paying 100% attention to what is going on 100% of the time. Now if I could get that to work framing and smashing my hand with a milled face hammer, my world would be a much happier place.

Does flipping pieces end for end seem dangerous to you guys? Because I will never, push stick or not, ram a 24" piece of anything really skinny through a saw. That concept has seemed to have evaded many.

A shaper is way more dangerous than a tablesaw, any day of the week. Same horsepower, on a third of lever. You ain't stoppin that with flesh. The power feed is actually more of something to save time and money. Steady feed rates yield a better product. If I thought it would make me more money with out one, I wouldn't be using it. But in this case it is the inverse. Feeders on a table saw work decently, so long as that saw has a dedicated setup for a feeder, working around it the rest of the time is a pain, and a seperate saw for it is money well spent. I've been looking for a used Powermatic 74 for just this application, I can't afford a actual rip saw, so that'll have to do for two person cutting/stacking of stick & face frame material. It'd be handy for cutting dado's in for drawer bottoms as well. I haven't gotten good results with a shaper doing this, I think the diameter is too small and it takes too much material too quickly.
Coping sleds are sweet too, but only if they're pnuematic. Actuating a hand clamp is too dang slow. I'd rather cut and hold them by hand with a T-square than have to do it with a manual clamp.



How high do you set your blades at? I set them so the gullet is at about the height of the material, or maybe just a bit below for solid stock. Right or wrong I don't know, but it seems to cut the best while keeping as little of the blade sticking up as possible.


Bored, you damn right I'm bored. Cabinetry isn't exactly rocket science. I spend in an 8 hour day probably a good honest 15minutes thinking about how to do something. Total though the whole day. Other than that its just cutting out ugly material, and making the best use of the excuse for wood that we get now days. 90% of it doesn't even require paying attention, like making doors. ugh. A bulk of mindless time spent is feeding material into the shaper, sander, the planer, and sanding the panels and assembled product. The only time paying attention is even required is making sure to orientated the stick material correctly, and cutting it on the table saw. There's zero challenge left in any of it, only things that take more time than others. Although I had never made a single beaded face frame and jack-mitred it together until last week. I was bored with nothing to do and whipped one up just to see how its done. End of that mystery. When I first started, I really loved the work, I took pride in everything I do, I probably make everything better than I used to, but I don't have that warm fuzzy feeling from completing something difficult, because none of it is anymore.

[Karl Brogger]

As far as the devices shown in this thread... Karl mentioned measuring out to such a point.. measuring back to a point and subtracting 1/8". Why not simply measure from one end.. make a mark.. lay on sled and cut. That took a shorter time than the solution of the Pro. And what is in the way?

Except you assume I actually take the tape out to make that measurement. If I buy a unit of material, its all the same, no reason to even bother. If the whole unit is 97", (Regardless of what size, they're all the same), and you need a 60" piece, why not just set the fence at 36-7/8" and make the cut? That's what I do, and I don't have to load a full or half sheet on to some home made sled, (or sliding saw either which I'm not a fan of), or have to deal with the storage/handling issues of having it there. I will never own a sliding tablesaw, just because they're time consuming, expensive, eat up a massive amount of real estate, and are only marginally better than just a plain ol' cabinet saw. And yes, I have used some very nice, well built slide saws, also some crappy ones. But I'd spend $25k this afternoon on a vertical panel saw if I had a place to put it. Short of a beam saw, that is the fastest and easiest way to break down sheet stock. I'd even go toe to toe with a CNC router on that one. I'll load, cut, and unload my material before the CNC even has the program loaded. Properly set up a CNC should only be machining parts anyway, not cutting them out, although the vast majority of shops are setup that way.

[John Thompson]

Karl.. I did catch your comment about cutting to mid length on a narrow rip.. then reversing the cut. Great idea but.. what if you have a shorter piece than your 24" limit. I just cut 3 pieces of ebony for A & C buttons 1/2" x 1/2" from 12" long ebony block. I could have done the same cut with a 3" long piece for that matter and never got my hand closer than 6" from the blade.

I took some pictures of both a cross-cut with 1 1/4" stock and I trimmed off 2 mm on the end. My hand never came closer than 6" from the blade. I also took a picture of the three 1/2" x 1/2" x 12 just to demonstrate I ain't talking from a book. I removed the gaurd and splitter even though the splitter in this case could have stayed on for both these cuts.

Yes.. my push stick on the rips was beside me as that was part of prep. Did I have to move my rear hand off the back of stock to pick up the stick. No... It really wouldn't matter in my case as my stock is pinned left with a spring-board.. right by fence and over-head with a simple piece of scrap clamped on the fence.

The push sticks used was simply a 1" wide flat on the first cut.. a 3/8" wide on the next as the stock became narrower. You simply push.. the fence.. spring-board left and scrap hold down does the dirty work.

In both cases my hands never came closer than 6" and the cuts were smooth and precise. And yep.. I use a sharp blade. I have 4 40 T cross-cuts.. 2 24 T rips and 2 20 T rips. One usually stays at my sharpener 4 miles away. I won't use dull blades.. period.

Have you thought of changing professions? I spent a year in a cabinet shop and was bored after a month. I don't like production work as it's the same old thing as you mentioned day after day. About the only thing that changes are dimentions and style.

Good luck...

Back to the shop for me... I'm retired now but it ain't quitting time until a football game breaks out latter! :)

[John Thompson]

Except you assume I actually take the tape out to make that measurement. If I buy a unit of material, its all the same, no reason to even bother. If the whole unit is 97", (Regardless of what size, they're all the same), and you need a 60" piece, why not just set the fence at 36-7/8" and make the cut? That's what I do, and I don't have to load a full or half sheet on to some home made sled, (or sliding saw either which I'm not a fan of), or have to deal with the storage/handling issues of having it there. I will never own a sliding tablesaw, just because they're time consuming, expensive, eat up a massive amount of real estate, and are only marginally better than just a plain ol' cabinet saw. And yes, I have used some very nice, well built slide saws, also some crappy ones. But I'd spend $25k this afternoon on a vertical panel saw if I had a place to put it. Short of a beam saw, that is the fastest and easiest way to break down sheet stock. I'd even go toe to toe with a CNC router on that one. I'll load, cut, and unload my material before the CNC even has the program loaded. Properly set up a CNC should only be machining parts anyway, not cutting them out, although the vast majority of shops are setup that way.

Karl.... the OP you answered that to had a 72" long.. 22" wide panel of solid wood. You refer to ply as you use it daily... the majority of us here simply don't have all the same lenghts or widths to work with. I build one off furniture and have for 38 years. I buy rough and size it from there. So.. the way you mentioned has little relevance to the way the majority of us work.

I don't have a slider.. don't need one. I don't have a SS and don't need one. If I was in the cabinet business and I'm not by choice.. I would also opt for the panel saw. But I don't even need that as my work is one-off large carcass as mentioned where the only ply I might use would be for a simply drawer bottom or chest back. So.. you really address the majority which really don't have dead-lines.. don't use ply the most part.. etc.

Apples to orange in a sense...

Now... back to the shop...

[Karl Brogger]

Karl.. I did catch your comment about cutting to mid length on a narrow rip.. then reversing the cut. Great idea but.. what if you have a shorter piece than your 24" limit.

Cut part way, kill the saw with my knee, use what I'm cutting to grind the blade to a short stop, pull piece out, flip, restart saw, finish cut, loosen fence with left hand, push out of way with right hand by pushing on material against fence.

My hand never got even remotely close to the blade, and I didn't have to set anything special up for a very limited number of cuts, or worse. One cut. Although when cutting bevel cuts I have had the drop come shooting back at me, but never with much speed.

[george wilson]

Was the blade tilting towards the wood when it kicked back? When I was just starting to learn to use a table saw in 1954,I was cutting a narrow strip of wood with the blade tilted towards the wood. (It was a Unisaw,and they always tilted towards the fence,a feature I always found bothersome.) The strip shot out of the saw and stuck into the side of an old wooden boat about 15 feet behind the saw. Last time I tried to cut bevels that way!!!

[Denny Rice]

I also run my table saw with NO guard of any kind. I find 99% of them that come with the purchase of the saw are more dangerous than running without one. Thats just my personal preference I feel I have more control because I can see everything. I always set my blade height with the stock on the saw I set the blade no more than 1/8"-1/4" above the top of the board. The other thing I have never liked and I know a lot of people here do is the push shoe, they scare me I feel like when your finishing your cut through the blade the hand is too close to the blade, thats why I have always felt more comfortable with a old-fashioned push stick. When I started working with wood I don't think there was a thing called a push shoe, once again its just something I became comfortable using over the years. JMHO

[John Thompson]

Cut part way, kill the saw with my knee, use what I'm cutting to grind the blade to a short stop, pull piece out, flip, restart saw, finish cut, loosen fence with left hand, push out of way with right hand by pushing on material against fence.

My hand never got even remotely close to the blade, and I didn't have to set anything special up for a very limited number of cuts, or worse. One cut. Although when cutting bevel cuts I have had the drop come shooting back at me, but never with much speed.

I do understand your technique at this point, Karl. To the point I apologize for calling your #8 suggestion ludicrous and withdraw the word ludicrous. But.. you stated you did this with 1" stock and under. I can't determine what the big difference is in 1" stock and 1 1/16" stock.. 1 1/2".. etc. So it boils back down to I will have to agree to dis-agree on the use of a push-stick as I simply use it to push with no attempt to hold the stock down with it. I use other devices to do that task which avoids me from ever putting my hand closer than 6" from the blade.

I also will have to dis-agree about the use of splitters.. crown guards.. plastic shields.. feather-boards (in my case I use a home-made spring-board) and I personally use a short fence opposed to a long in 90% of my rip cuts which is about 90% of my work on a table-saw. I could explain in detail why each one of them is helpful but... it would really be a waste of my and your time as you appear to be dead set in your methods and feel they are best.

I will also have to disagree with being able to idenify reaction wood before the fact. You can find some planks that are obvious from the surface but.. you cannot see intenal tension from the surface in some. I hire out to surface prep air dried stock on occassion for locals which requires ripping in 10' -12' lenghts. You cannot go through 5000 linear feet of stock and cull out all the reaction wood as you just can't see through a piece of wood and detect internal tension. Here's where a splitter and short fence comes in handy but that is mute as you are probably not interested.

So.. it boils down to not everyone is going to agree on methods they feel are the best. Everyone is responsible for their own safety and take action to determine what is best for them which is our individual right. If they want to hang from a tight wire above their saw and shove stock through with their foot.. that is there personal decision and OK with me.

I won't preach to you what I feel is a safer method as I shake in fear of being called a "Safety Nazi" hiding behind a key-board as mentioned by another poster. I am in Fear of getting beat up if they found out I live on Ridgemont Dr. in Lawrenceville, Ga. I wouldn't want that to get out and disclose my location for sure. ha.. ha... ha..ha..ha..

Have a good day Karl and I hope you stumble on a line of work that makes you feel a bit more satisfied as life is short indeed.

Regards...

[Karl Brogger]

OK, you didn't see the mass of gnarly grain, or its thick and not showing on the surface. So the piece is in the saw, its expanding and binding. Now what? Easy, follow #5, #9, #10, and keep a good grip on it and muscle through it. If its binding to the point its killing the saw, then its probably best to hit the off switch with your knee and pull out the material. Chances are you are though the worst of it and you can come in from the other direction and get it cut. The reality is that when you relieve that much stress the piece is going to be unusable, or at least the cost of dealing with a part that looks like a pretzel is higher than the value of the wood, and its either going to have to be cut into something really narrow and easy to manipulate like face frame material, or its destined for the dumpster.

The big difference between 1", and 1-1/16", or 1-1/2" would be the extra clearance of a 1/16" or 1/2" etc. gives me. Like I said, its a time managment thing. Cutting up 5000 lin/ft = 625 cuts from 8' material. That adds up to a fair amount of time if I were to grab a push stick for every single cut under 4". Do what you will with the push sticks, I don't feel they are safer, if you just can't grip it well enough in my opinion.

As far as changing careers, I've thought about it. The only occupation that has any real draw to me is lottery winner.:D A nomadic life of sticking my toes into the sand with a coctail in my hand on the south Pacific, while wondering if I put out enough chain for the incoming tide is the life for me. The reality is, I'd pass out under a palm tree and someone would steal my boat.:rolleyes: or, I'd take the dingy to some island and discover a native people unknown to the rest of the world, unknown because they eat anyone from the rest of the world....

[John Coloccia]

A little off topic, but have you considered a rip saw? They don't take up much room and they'd make quick work of these mind numbingly repetitive tasks. If I have to cut a bunch of 1" or 2" wide sticks, I usually don't even bother. I have my lumber yard slice them up for me on their rip saw. It takes them a teeny tiny fraction of the time it would take me, and I can be doing productive work instead of wasting time cutting.

[jerry nazard]

As far as changing careers, I've thought about it. The only occupation that has any real draw to me is lottery winner.:D A nomadic life of sticking my toes into the sand with a coctail in my hand on the south Pacific, while wondering if I put out enough chain for the incoming tide is the life for me. The reality is, I'd pass out under a palm tree and someone would steal my boat.:rolleyes: or, I'd take the dingy to some island and discover a native people unknown to the rest of the world, unknown because they eat anyone from the rest of the world....

Karl, we are never going to agree on tablesaw safety/procedures; but, your take on career change is spot on until you get to the stolen boat/cannibal stuff.... <gr>

-Jerry

[Roger Benton]

i agree that there is a lot to be said for simply being comfortable, confident and in control of our tools. experience should make us feel comfortable, not the latest safety contraption. problem with experience is, it only comes with experience, and until it arrives people will do things with a bit of trepidation which can invite injury.

we instruct a newcomers to the field to follow the same general guidelines you outlined, with the exception of using a push stick under 3".

i have a big, old rockwell saw, 6hp, 14" rip blade. no guard, splitter, riving knife, nothing. lack of safety gear has never bothered me until just the other day while ripping 10'+ boards of 10/4 maple and the kerf was closing up no sooner than the wood got past the blade, not even enough room to insert a wedge beyond the blade. took all my weight bearing down to keep the 80+ lb. board on the table, and the motor bogged down to almost a standstill before i could knee the stop button. this is with a freshly sharpened and dead flat blade. i wasn't afraid of getting hurt during this episode, i was just frustrated that i now had to spend extra time cleaning up that cut.

had to re-convene with a co-worker positioned out-feed with a hammer and wedges to finish my milling.

point is, a riving knife would have really helped me out and saved time, and it wouldn't have hurt me or been a nuisance at anytime before that.

so now i'm looking for one that fits my dino-saw.

maybe it's a different story with a 10" blade, 3hp, and breaking down sheet goods all day, but for what i tend to do a riving knife will help save material, time and effort, while not being the type of crutch that will invite less disciplined usage.

just my $.02

[Keith Christopher]

I think we can take away from this mostly, no matter what safety features come with your saw, they need to be coupled with proper technique. I do wish the OP well and safety always (as with everyone) but in my opinion there is ALOT of trust you put in things mechanical and natural.

For the newer folks, (i still include myself in this area even though I've been doing it for 12 yrs) read follow and understand all the safety instructions that come with your power tools.

[John Thompson]

Karl.. I think where we mainly are going to dis-agree is about being able to hold the stock in check in the case of kick-back. There have been occassions I was able to.. there have been occassions I simply couldn't. As for powering through.. I agee it can be done to a degree and the main reason I sold my 3 HP and replaced with a 5 HP. The larger HP does help you horse it and will eliminate a near bog that would have occurred on a very small HP saw.

But.. if the stock just happens to touch the dangerous rear rising teeth... the stock is going up. Once is does it can twist on top of the blade.. launch skyward.. etc. as only God knows where it will go. My kick-backs tell me this and they happened withing a heart-beat. My strength or reaction time has declined since the day I left a Hunter-Killer team with 75th Rangers in Vietnam. It comes with age.

So.. do I trust the fact I can control a kick-back when it happens on a 3 HP.. my 5 HP TS? You bet I don't as I know from experience I cannot always. The reason I run a splitter.. crown guard.. spring-broad as I do. I need some help holding the stock positively.. I need some help blocking not if.. but when a kick-back shows it's ugly head. I was taught in 1963 to keep the lane clear which will avoid off-shoots and it has for many years but... I am very clear in my mind I cannot always control a kick-back in progress.

So... I use devices that help aid me. I won't use a stock splitter. I make my own.. I make my own crown guards.. I make my own dust shields.. short fence... etc. The reason I opt to make them is so I can design them so I can see.. so I can take them off quickly when necessary as some cuts just require it.. so I do collect dust properly which is another hazard.

I love your idea about winning the lottery. I also wish I could and for some silly reason buy a ticket each week. I probably have a better chance of finding the winning ticket in a parking lot but... just like kick-back... you just never know do you who might be the lucky or un-lucky recipient.

Again... my regards and hope it all works out for you...

[John Coloccia]

Let's see: A kick back typically comes off the saw somewhere about 100MPH.

Let's say you have 1lb of wood (very light wood, I know...conservative). The saw blade is 10" diameter, so let's say you have an entire 10" to accelerate the wood (again, conservative...the real answer is close to (2*3.14*5)/4 = about 8" for 1/4 of the blade's circumference).

Assuming 100% of the energy goes into flinging the board (conservative...a lot of energy actually goes into twisting the wood), that's a force of:

Assume constant acceleration, it will traverse 10" in:
100mph = 1760"/s
50mph = 880"/s
s = 10" / 50mph = 10"/(880"/s) = .011s

a = 100mph/.011s = (1760"/s)/.011s = 160000"/s*s

F = ma = 1lb * 160000"/s*s = 414lbs (1843N if you prefer).

Anyone that thinks they can hold back 414lbs of force is delusional. There is no one that can stop a kickback. There's no fence hold down, feather board, guard or anything else that will stop a kick back, at least none that I know of.

You can stop material rejection (when the saw kicks the material straight back out...usually not a major big deal), and you can muscle the board to prevent the kickback from starting in the first place. Once the back of the blade grips and pinches the board at the fence, however, you're SOL regardless of techniques and guards.

I don't want to be argumentative, but I just want to make clear that you're preventing the kickback from occurring in the first place....which is the goal of good technique and to a large extent all the hold down gadgets we use. If the kick back actually starts, however, I don't think there's anything anyone can do to stop it.

Maybe someone will double check my math and find I'm off my a 0 somewhere and it's only 41lbs....that would still be an awful lot to stop with no warning.

[george wilson]

Karl,you don't seem to be very motivated.

[Larry Edgerton]

As far as changing careers, I've thought about it. The only occupation that has any real draw to me is lottery winner.:D A nomadic life of sticking my toes into the sand with a coctail in my hand on the south Pacific, while wondering if I put out enough chain for the incoming tide is the life for me. The reality is, I'd pass out under a palm tree and someone would steal my boat.:rolleyes: or, I'd take the dingy to some island and discover a native people unknown to the rest of the world, unknown because they eat anyone from the rest of the world....

My goal is to win the lottery and ride a GS around Austrailia. Thought I would worry about what to do next on my way around the island.....

[Karl Brogger]

I don't want to be argumentative, but I just want to make clear that you're preventing the kickback from occurring in the first place....which is the goal of good technique and to a large extent all the hold down gadgets we use. If the kick back actually starts, however, I don't think there's anything anyone can do to stop it.


Bingo! Yahtzee! Suuuuurrvey SAYS!!!

As for holding one back, no, once its on top chances are you will not be able to hold it back. Some of your equation doesn't pan out all that well, holding onto a 4"x4" piece that's going to hell is tough, and you shouldn't have put yourself in that postion in the first place, but a 96"x6" boards won't be as easily moved, or get up to speed as quickly, thereby more controlable. Your numbers only work if full kinetic energy is achieved, with out that mass in motion, there is zero and just the drag of the table, fence, and the cutting of the blade to contend with. If you've allowed it to get on top of the blade, then you've already bailed on so many things that I've been saying to do that there isn't any hope left anymore, then its just best to cover the family jewels and turn away. I've had plenty of stuff bind, then push back, and I will say that it does take some physical effort to keep it from becoming a projectile, but I'm not exactly fit, nor am I all that strong.

This whole thing has had some really obtuse arguments in it. There is far too much emphasis on making the tool safer, when in reality its the operator that needs to know how to correctly operate equipment, and that does come from experience, and the only way to get experience is to do it. I've got probably 30k hours in a shop over the past dozen years, but like anything I walk before I crawled. I just don't like things of this nature becoming a crutch, and many people need to realize that we are not all created equal, no matter who tells you that, they are wrong. Barry Bonds can't play the cello, Yo Yo Ma can't hit the curve ball, I'll never be performing a heart transplant. If you are constantly nervous doing something, then you shouldn't be doing it, plain and simple. If you can hit a home run every time, but have to do it from a T stand, can't run or catch, then you aren't really playing ball. I've backed out of many things because they started to scare me, or some just because my body was going to up and stop working if I kept doing it. Snowboarding, motocross, & road racing motorcycles are at the tops of those lists. All things I gave up because I was going to kill myself at some point. But I had to work up to hitting a 90ft double when I raced motocross, I had to work up to being comfortable coming into a corner hot on a sportbike. Advanced stages are just that, advanced. I've had a knack for doing this from a pretty early age. The first cabinet shop I worked at, I had people working under me in less than six months, I think I was 18 at the time, I started my own company at 23.



Karl,you don't seem to be very motivated.
Sure I am, food on the table, roof over head. I don't know too many other reasons why anyone else would go anywhere for 60+hrs a week.:D

[Dennis McGarry]

Just have to say, To eaches own...

I for one, use safety equip when available. The old saying better safe then sorry has been around for a reason.

Yes you might be faster without it, but is the paycheck for that project worth a finger? an Eye? or your life? If you are married or have children, I am sure they would be great knowing that Hey dad died doing this, and he is no longer around for us but MAN he cut that board faster then even before!

I used to take on small jobs and often wouldnt use safety glasses, Now I wont do a small cut without them. Had a small 4in rip I had to do and grabbed the little 4 1/2 cordless circle saw and cut, less then a sec later, piece of saw dust in the eye. Well no biggie rigght? Head to the sink and grab the flush kit. Well No go, it was still lodged in there, and 5 hours later and a er visit serverly scratched corna.

SO now no matter what the cut, I put on the glasses...

[phil harold]

Less than an inch I will use a push stick or saw halfway then flip the board

I am scared of my power tools they cut flesh faster than wood

The need to be respected!

You need to know what you are doing using a tablesaw

I think Karl gave a good set of saftey instructions

Please heed them!



On seeing the title, my first thought was that this was going to be a political thread
I thought this thread was going to be about the sawstop...

[John Thompson]

Anyone that thinks they can hold back 414lbs of force is delusional. There is no one that can stop a kickback. There's no fence hold down, feather board, guard or anything else that will stop a kick back, at least none that I know of.

You can stop material rejection (when the saw kicks the material straight back out...usually not a major big deal), and you can muscle the board to prevent the kickback from starting in the first place. Once the back of the blade grips and pinches the board at the fence, however, you're SOL regardless of techniques and guards.

I don't want to be argumentative, but I just want to make clear that you're preventing the kickback from occurring in the first place....which is the goal of good technique and to a large extent all the hold down gadgets we use. If the kick back actually starts, however, I don't think there's anything anyone can do to stop it..... John Coloccia
*****

I agree... once it starts it has already happened. The spring-board left of blade I use is to keep the stock firmly against fence.. the splitter is to help avoid the stock from touching the rear teeth which it cannot totally do as you have to make the splitter a hair narrower than the teeth kerf. Most stock spiltters are much too narrow to do it effectively. The short fence I use creates a free zone beyond the front cutting teeth and in the event a peice of reaction woods spreads so radically it hits the rear of a long fence it can rebound back into the rear teeth. I have had some wood that had so much reaction that it flexed a splitter out of position and I still got kick-back.

The crown guard and fence hold-down don't aid in preventing kick-back But... they along with the feather-board left can help absorb intial impact much as a safety barrier wall on a race-track. You still have kick-back but they do absord some of the velocity and hopefully help channel the kick-back to the rear of the saw where you are standing clear of the firing lane.

I do not get into the numbers you presented but... I can tell you that the hole in my two layers of sheet rock 20' behind my saw made from a 6/4 2" wide off-shoot is enough to convince me that is enough velocity to create an impact. I can also say from 5 gut kicks and one resulting in an emergency room visit to stop hemoraging that even without exact numbers... I am going to do all I can to prevent kick-back.. absorb impact before it impacts me.. before the fact as I know for fact once it starts you won't stop it. You're either lucky or you're not.. ;)

[Stephen Edwards]

.....I agree... once it starts it has already happened. The spring-board left of blade I use is to keep the stock firmly against fence.... ;)

Sarge, Your springboard, does that serve the same purpose as a feather board? I saved the pics that you posted in a previous post in this thread. Please explain the advantages of that over a regular feather board. Is the way that it's constructed meant to give it a bit of "flex", thus called a spring board?

It looks like a good idea, I just haven't seen one before. Thanks for your thoughts and time.

[John Thompson]

Sarge, Your springboard, does that serve the same purpose as a feather board? I saved the pics that you posted in a previous post in this thread. Please explain the advantages of that over a regular feather board. Is the way that it's constructed meant to give it a bit of "flex", thus called a spring board?

It looks like a good idea, I just haven't seen one before. Thanks for your thoughts and time.

It does serve the same purpose Steve. And yes it flexes but the in-out motion is more of a spring reaction than the teeth of a feater-board as they flex from front to back. Both wil serve the purpose. I have the small one along with a much wider one for my TS. The short gets the call on pieces up to about 8" and the track rides in the normal left slot. But... I rip for hire and sometimes get stock as wide as 18" so the larger one rides in a miter track I added on the left outside of the saw. It can handle up to 22" wide stock.

I also built one for my router table and my larger re-saw BS. As stated both a FB and SB serve the same basic purpose.. I just perfer the S-B as it seems to distribute pressure more evenly in my mind. Maybe it is just in my mind but.. they can be made from scrap in in less than 30 minutes if you don't count dry time for glue. If you saw and over-head photo.. it is really a simple device and adjustable back and forth.

If interested.. PM me with your e-mail and I will get an over the top picture which will show a main board.. two simple wooden shims glued outside.. another 1/4" strip glued to them... a center wooden shim glued to the face of it.. then the main contact strip glued to it. Round over the ends of the main contact strip to assist entry-exit.

Regards...

[Stephen Edwards]

If interested.. PM me with your e-mail and I will get an over the top picture which will show a main board.. two simple wooden shims glued outside.. another 1/4" strip glued to them... a center wooden shim glued to the face of it.. then the main contact strip glued to it. Round over the ends of the main contact strip to assist entry-exit.

Regards...

PM sent. Thanks, Sarge.

Kind Regards,

[John Thompson]

PM sent. Thanks, Sarge.

Kind Regards,

Here ya go, Steve. Had trouble with your emai as I have no clue who my server is and it ask. Would not let me go further.

Enjoy...

[Stephen Edwards]

Thanks Sarge. I appreciate it. That helps a bunch!

[David Keller NC]

Karl - I didn't read every reply in this thread, but I seem to recall that you mention that you had individuals "in your employ".

Be aware that your disdain for safety devices is not only questionable, it is also illegal if you run a commercial operation.

If you don't fear a table saw, that's your business. But you should fear OSHA in case one of your employees isn't as careful as you are. You might reply that leaving the safety guards intact slows you down to the point where you cannot make as much money as you could otherwise.

But remember that there is a big difference between having to find another career because you can't make a decent living using the legally required safety guards, and having everything you own seized by a court, and possibly going to jail to boot.

'Nuff said.

[Danny Burns]

The thing for me is that I would feel better if I took the precaution, and failed, rather than not taking any, and wanting to kick myself in da butt later.
I sorta like living with no regrets.

[Brian Kincaid]

My grandfather lost many fingers to his table saw in several different accidents. I was not there to see the accidents or know the details, only saw his hands.

After several years of woodworking I had lost none to my table saw. I was resawing some thick lumber on my table saw and the blade stalled. I measured a few things and found out that the saw had gone out of alignment for whatever reason. Some time later I was sitting there thinking about how to safely make a long crosscut on my table saw and the thought occured to me 'will I teach my son to use a table saw?'
...
My answer was no. I c-listed it and sold it.

This weekend I was building a bookcase. I squared up two large pieces 13" x 29". When I took the two pieces and stacked them on top of each other to see how close to square they were and I could not detect any difference. My shop does not have a table saw. I have found other tools that work safer for me. I will teach my children to use the them.

-Brian

[Prashun Patel]

Nice thing about Karl's original post is that it's not in conflict with using other safety devices. I'll continue to use my guards/splitters/pushsticks, but thanks for the reminder to not get 'lazy' about tuning/lubing and being focused as well.

IMHO, any heated discussion about safety is a good one. I usually get a little sweaty at the end of these ts safety threads as I'm reminded about how dangerous this beautiful machine is!

[Peter Quinn]

Hey Karl. I've been thinking about this post since I read your OP, an I happen to agree with most of what you have said. Some of the setups I see with hold downs, board buddies and feather boards every where, blade guards all around and such strike me as extreme overkill and possibly a nuisance. But then I get to thinking about children riding bikes for the first time and training wheels. Pull off the training wheels and you get a few skinned knees, or in my sisters case 6 stitches in her chin. Telling some one how to do something that requires quite a bit of practice and "feeling" is a far cry from them actually feeling it, and the stakes are a bit higher given the potential for injury if things get screwed up on a TS. So maybe there is a place for all that safety gear to protect the novice user from them selves. But your list of rules is a great starting point for TS users to learn and practice until its so absorbed its second nature.

The idea that long time wood workers, professional or otherwise, get complacent and sloppy is about as stupid a thought as one can put forth. That seems to be the major attack on Karl's OP. In fact its quite the opposite IME. You get trained to be so focused and alert that it becomes second nature, though it may look unsafe to the uninitiated. The motions become ingrained in your muscle memory and just happen, like karate or playing an instrument, you work faster and cleaner with more precision over time. I'm not saying there aren't novices that THINK they have it down and get a rude awakening, but complacency and danger over time should not be considered a forgone conclusion folks.

I do waver a bit on your rule #8. We make a lot of TDL windows and entry ways with lites, often with lites as small as 7"X9" and flats no bigger than 3/16". Usually the bars are 15/16" maximum so they don't look like that chunky factory made crap. The last set I worked on were (10) 96" doors with 18 lites, 2 1/4" thick, so that is a lot of bars. We use the TS to take out the rabbits, because that is a lot of material to remove with a shaper any way you slice it. So at some point in almost every job I find myself using a big push block that holds the work down to the table. tight to the fence, and keep things moving forward without have my hands less than 1" from the blade. Taking 3/4" out of a 15/16" munton in two passes can relieve a lot of stress and make things pinch bad, some pieces pass like butter and some burn like hell and wind up scrap, but they all get pushed through. I've made a few blocks that ride the fence so you can push like hell and not worry about slipping should things get sticky. I can think of dozens of other set ups where the push block offers more control and safety, and many where it would be a danger or a nuisance.

Push STICKS should be reserved for shuffle board and pool, or for the BS. My push blocks are at least 10" long so they are holding the stock down on both sides of the blade, and typically they are 1 3/4" thick, so they get cut by the blade and are sacrificial.

[Dave Avery]

Can't help but wonder how one gains Karl's level of experience without either using safety devices or taking undue risk while learning.....

[harry strasil]

It's simple, we started doing WWing before all the supposed safety devices were even thought of. And we understand that machines are dangerous and have learned to respect them for what they are.

[Bob Carreiro]

Good reply to Dave Avery, Harry Strail!

I went to a vocational HS - Diman Regional Vocational - in Fall River, MA (class of '70) and most the stuff ya see today wasn't around then. When you learn "how to" without all the safety "enhancements" of today, but your brain, you learn well.

It's been said that this is an instant gatification society/generation. This is, in my opinion, why all the fuss is made about using all the safety fodder of today and the "shame on you's" thrown at those who don't! Seemingly, today's WW wants the "peace of mind" of safe WW operations (and who doesn't?), but without the time, practice and energy from which we base our practices. It's as if the safety fodder sold (& preached) today will make up for what experience and time would otherwise teach! No amount of safety equipment is going to ensure one's safety, nor the absence of it, make the operation unsafe.


happy (and safe) WW,
Bob Carreiro
Pulsbo, WA

[Glen Gunderson]

There seems to be a false dichotomy going on between safe work practices as mentioned in the OP and the use of safety equipment. Why can't people do both? It's like suggesting that becuase you're a good driver that ABS or seatbelts are superfluous.

If people don't like safety equipment that's fine, but to make up excuses why it's a hindrance is simply spreading misinformation. People complain that they can't see the blade when there's a guard, well why do you need to see the blade when ripping, the blades position against he fence is what's crucial. Besides, in the instances where you do need to see the blade cutting (like when cutting to a mark) most guards can easily be flipped up and out of the way, leaving the splitter.

People also complain about the time it takes to take the guard on and off, but I once timed myself to see how long it takes me to get my stock table saw splitter and guard (with one minor modification) on and off and it took about 4 seconds to take it off and about 10 to put it back on. Removing and then replacing my stock guard adds about 20 seconds to my workflow, so I don't really buy the time argument either. It's not like I had to go spend a fortune on an aftermarket guard either, I just bought a couple of wing nuts to replace the regular ones that came with my saw.

Again, everyone can choose his own work habits and I wouldn't have it any other way. Nevertheless, safety equipment (when it adds little expense or hassle) is a good thing in my mind and I think most woodworkers would be better off if they kept an open mind towards it. Woodworkers, even the smart ones, do have accidents and I would guess the vast majority of kickbacks and blade contacts occur when there is no splitter or guard in place. If you don't want to use one fine, but don't try and convince others or characterize those of us who use safety equipment as being afraid of our own shadows and being unwilling to learn proper safety practices. When it comes to my body parts, I'd rather be redundant than brave.

[John Pratt]

Good reply to Dave Avery, Harry Strail!

...When you learn "how to" without all the safety "enhancements" of today, but your brain, you learn well.

It's been said that this is an instant gatification society/generation. This is, in my opinion, why all the fuss is made about using all the safety fodder of today and the "shame on you's" thrown at those who don't! Seemingly, today's WW wants the "peace of mind" of safe WW operations (and who doesn't?), but without the time, practice and energy from which we base our practices. It's as if the safety fodder sold (& preached) today will make up for what experience and time would otherwise teach! ...

happy (and safe) WW,
Bob Carreiro
Pulsbo, WA

They didn't used to have seat belts in cars either, but I wear one now. We didn't wear helmets cycling either, but I wear one now and my kids are required to wear one also. Helmets are even required for professionals. Just because safety equipment didn't exist before doesn't mean it takes away from the process or learning experience of wood working for me. I don't agree with the original post, but hey, that's my opinion. I have employees who I require to use safety equipment because I would like to keep my job. It is not a "shame-on-you" to those who choose not to use provided safety equipment, but several times in these posts people have said this is the way it should be done (without safety equipment) to be productive.

Karl even said these things "need to be done" including the non-use of push sticks, and "Tried to help you folks out, I get a bunch of attitude in return. It saddens me that I'll keep having to wade through post after post of people un-willing to get the most from thier equipment, or skills. But if you enjoy wasting time in the shop go for it."

This sounds more like a "shame-on-you" for using safety equipment. You do want you want, but don't tell me that by using safety equipment, or requiring it for my employees makes me any less qualifed or experienced in the wood working field.

Karl - I wish you well in your endeavors, and by quoting you I do not mean to infer that you are any less than qualified to give a wide range of opinions on a number of topics. I have read and followed your advice on numerous posts. I just have to disagree on this one.

[jerry nazard]

Glen Gunderson and John Pratt,

Excellent posts. Thank you both! I begin woodworking in the no guard/splitter era. Only in recent years have I adopted the practice of using safety devices. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure....

[Jeff Sudmeier]

The funny thing is I agree with about 90% of the OP comments. I don't agree that the safety devices make you less safe. I learned power tools doing construction. In construction everyone is macho and doesn't need no stinking cards.

For cripes sakes one of my old bosses skill saws had the blade gaurd stuck open. I threw that one away after a neighbor literally sawed off his thumb. (Different saw, was doing a roof, set down the saw and the gaurd stuck open, shot backword and clean sawed off his thumb).

Anyway, I use my gaurd whenever I can, use a push block on stock less than 6" wide and always use something to put pressure against the fence in front of the blade.

My father also didn't use a gaurd on his table saw till I put it on, now he likes it..

I don't ever recall touching the gaurd on my saw when it was running (would signal the gaurd saved me) but I will still leave it on.

[Brian Kincaid]

Seemingly, today's WW wants the "peace of mind" of safe WW operations (and who doesn't?), but without the time, practice and energy from which we base our practices.
...
No amount of safety equipment is going to ensure one's safety, nor the absence of it, make the operation unsafe.
Bob Carreiro


Bob,
At first glance I agree with you, on second though I do not.

Who is the 'we' that Bob is referring to? Is there such a thing as a fully trained qualified woodworker? Anybody here learn everything by apprenticeship?
I am a hobbyist. I would wager a high number of people here were, like myself, self-taught. Some of us learn about boards releasing tension in the middle of a cut by experiencing it then googling or creeking 'what just happened? THAT could have killed me!?' I first experienced a pinched kerf on my table saw will all the guards in place. I had no idea the wood could pinch closed like that. The result was not kickback, it was a stuck board. When crosscutting 2x12 construction lumber with a miter saw the board can do the same thing, which I have also experienced. I adjusted my techniques and each time I do a higher quality job with more safety.

If no amount of safety equipment will make a procedure safe then the procedure is dangerous, and in my mind stupid. If you perform an operation that could be dangerous it will at some point. No environment is completely safe, no person is perfect. What is the point of taking the risk? Are you a hero because you finished that shelf/cabinet/table without guards on your equipment? Wood has a mind of its own it seems. We should prepare accordingly.

Is the operation/tool dangerous? We should find another way to do the job safely. If one doesn't exist, invent it! Then we all benefit from your experience and innovation!

-Brian