Decision Time: Panel Saws / Table Saws

[Mauricio Zamora]

I will be building a new workshop in the upcoming months and I need to invest in a nice table or panel saw. I was going down the path of purchasing either a Delta Unisaw or a Sawstop. I then starting to look at the Felder, Laguna and Minimax line of panel saws.

While cost is certainly a factor, I am confident that any of the above options are reasonable given the amount of work I am going to do over the next several years. It's a hobby now but I hope to go beyond that in the future. The type of work I currently do is all over the board including:
* Building Guitars - primarily electrical / carved but moving into acoustic
* Furniture - cabinets, tables, moving into chairs
* Misc - jigs, gadgets, boxes, moving into turning

I believe a standard table saw would suit me find but I am really intrigued by the panel saws due to improved safety, usability and accuracy. I will often be in the shop by myself and I personally hate running a 4x8 through a table saw solo.

So... Have some questions for folks...
* Are panel saws really that much better than a good table saw?
* Can you use both to do the same tasks (realize jigs may be different)?
* Are Felder, Laguna and Minimax smiliar enough in quality to go with the best valued option?
* Should I look into combo machines also - currently avoiding?
* Any general thoughts based on experience?

Realize I am first time poster - only recently stumbled on to this site!

Thanks,

Mauricio

[Matt Benton]

I've never used a slider (I'm assuming that's what you're referring to, and not a vertical panel saw), so take that into consideration.

My impression from reading other posts on the subject is that few people with both the money and room for a slider have regretted the choice. I think that they are one of those items that, while probably designed for a production environment, can be very beneficial in a smaller shop. I'd say that if you've seen the prices and are still considering them, then that's the road you should take.

I'm sure you will get more than one suggestion to do a search hear on the creek, and you will find a great deal of info that way...

[Chuck Isaacson]

Why don't you just get one tool to do both things. Get a sliding table saw. It will give you the capability to do regular cuts on it as well as being able to cut full sheets. Grizzly makes a few as well as the others that you mentioned, Laguna, Felder etc.

Chuck

[Matt Benton]

I think when he said panel saw he is actually referring to a slider...

[Chris Tsutsui]

I think you should just get a Unisaw.

I'd leave the panel saws to the contractors that have a guy ripping MDF and plywood all day.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mauricio, I just signed on the line (and gave money) for a Hammer B3 Winner combination saw/shaper.

The sliding saws are so much better than a cabinet saw, that there really isn't any comparison.

My new saw is replacing a General 650 cabinet saw and shaper.

The slider handles panels, allows you to straight line rip rough material, and rips like a normal saw.

I ordered one with a 49" sliding table which gives me a 51" long crosscut capacity using the slider. (I live in a townhouse, small shop).

I also ordered it with scoring saw blade, dado capability, 31" rip capacity with fine adjust on the rip fence.

The shaper is a 1 1/4" spindle, 3,600/7,200/9,600/12,000 rpm and 8 5/8" max tool diameter. It also tilts to 45 degrees and of course makes use of that sliding table.

I previously replaced a General 8" jointer and 14" planer with the Hammer A3-31 planer/jointer combo, What a great machine.

I now have a 12" jointer/planer with quick change knives, zero snipe, and a lot more room in the shop.

Although I've been a die hard General fan (they are made in Canada), I have had to admit that the North American style machinery is about 50 years out of date.

The Euro stuff is so much better, that it's not a fair comparison.

Go to the Felder USA site, register, and watch all the videos, including the long one where they make a desk with a CF741 combination machine.

Then look at MiniMax and Hammer as well.

Both Hammer/Felder have the base machine concept where you start with a base machine and specify all the options/capabilities at time of order. You get a completely optimised machine for your needs. MiniMax has more of a standard machine approach to the process that some people prefer. All 3 machines are great.

A sliding saw/shaper would be a great combination for making chairs, once you see the shaper on the video making curved parts from a pattern, you'll be sold.

Regards, Rod.

[Steve Rowe]

Mauricio,
First, welcome to the forum.

To answer your other questions:
* Are panel saws really that much better than a good table saw? - Absolutely! I have owned a total of 5 table saws (including a Delta Unisaw) and 2 sliders. The slider is far superior and safer. I rip using the sliding table. It does alter the way you work however since the operator position is to the side of the machine and not in front. I have never experienced a kickback on the slider. I cannot say the same for a cabinet saw.
* Can you use both to do the same tasks (realize jigs may be different)? You can do the same tasks but with some machines, dado capability may be an option that you have to purchase or may not be available.
* Are Felder, Laguna and Minimax smiliar enough in quality to go with the best valued option? - I currently own all three brands specified although none of which are currently a slider. Felder and MM are of similar quality and perform equally well IMO. I would rate the Felder X-Roll table as superior to the others. It is smooth, maintenance free, and easy to move regardless of how much weight I had been able to put on it. I am not sure who makes the Laguna now but, if the machines they offer are the Bulgarian made machines, I would rate the quality less than the Felder and MM. This is not to say it is inferior quality, just not quite up to the Felder & MM brands. It is less expensive and the old adage of you get what you pay for applies.
* Should I look into combo machines also - currently avoiding? -
I have owned a slider since 2004. The first was a combo which I sold after about 3 years and went to separates (except for J/P combo). While the combo is a good fit for some users, it really wasn't for me. It does impact productivity and from what you describe may be ok for you. The choice of a combo is really an individual preference. I had no issues with functionality of the combo.
* Any general thoughts based on experience? - see above, once you have a slider, there is no going back. Buy the best quality you can afford with all the options and accessories you want all at once. Buy once, cry once. That way you don't have to buy again and cry again.

Hope this helps,
Steve

[Steven DeMars]

Get your nice table saw & a DEWALT TRACK SAW to breakdown 4X8 sheet goods . . .

You will get table saw accurate cuts with none of the hassle . .

Steve:)

[Frank Drew]

The slider handles panels, allows you to straight line rip rough material, and rips like a normal saw.

I ordered one with a 49" sliding table which gives me a 51" long crosscut capacity using the slider.

I also ordered it with... dado capability, 31" rip capacity with fine adjust on the rip fence.



Those pretty much match the specs on the Ulmia sliding table saw I had in my custom furniture shop; maybe I had a few more inches rip capacity. The sliding table made it so much more useful and versatile than the Powermatic cabinet saw it replaced -- while not taking up as much room as a long panel saw -- that I'd consider almost any sacrifice worth making to have one for a professional shop. They're not just for shops that do mostly panel handling.

[Mauricio Zamora]

Thanks everyone for the fantastic information... I did indeed mean a sliding table vs. a panel saw - it seems like some vendors use one term vs. the other.

I have watched a few of the Felder videos and they are impressive! I ordered catalogs from Felder, Laguna and Minimax. It sounds like if I go with Felder or Minimax, I can't go wrong... Given the economy, hopefully everyone is willing to offer up some good discounts!

Great website - when I make a decision, I'll post my thoughts. In addition, I'll gladly post my workshop setup/construction as well!

Mo

[johnny means]

One thing to keep in mind is that a slider that handles 8' sheet goods well is not the ideal machine for doing tenons and other smaller scaled work. The shape of the cabinet doesn't really allow the operator to get a good position in front of the blade. Also the larger table requires a bit more reaching to do the types of operations that require ones hands to be between the fence and the blade. Ripping solid lumber on a slider can be really scary.

That being said, if I could only have one saw it would be a slider. My point is that the functionality of a slider does not perfectly overlap that of a cabinet saw.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Good info so far, but I'll toss in a few more ideas. So you know my bias I'm a very happy Felder CF741 owner. I had a couple great traditional style saws before.

Euro sliders are completely different than traditional saws. You will need to relearn a few things to use one efficiently, but once you get it, they really are better. Johnny mentioned ripping, which I'd agree is quite different than a traditional table saw. However, a traditional table saw will not let you clamp a board to the slider and straight line rip in one pass.

Rod hit on the cross play between a shaper and sliding saw. It's a great option to have one in your saw so you can use the slider with it. A shaper is a fantastic tool for tenons too. The Euro approach to tooling for that job is quite good.

Lots to think about for you, but I know that I have never regretted the plunge.

Felder has the best electronics, in my opinion. My machine slow starts all motors, and has electronic braking. It stops a 12" saw blade in about 2 seconds. All motors are variable speed with the turn of a knob, if you so desire that option. It's great for the shaper, for swapping from 180mm rebate to a small roundover, you just crank up the speed a little. No belts to change. On the saw, it's nice to change the speed when swapping from the 315mm rip blade to a 200mm dado. On the jointer/planer, the adjustible speed is really good for the mortising attachment.

Minimax is good stuff too, but they don't offer the same electronics that Felder does. Hammer is made by Felder, and the intercompany relationship and dealer support is good. Laguna is cheaper for a reason. Still good stuff, but they target a different customer than Felder, Hammer and Minimax. I'd put them on par with that good looking Grizzly equipment. Rojek might be worth a look for a budget option.

Oh, if you decide you want a traditional saw instead, you have the options of a Sawstop or not, and colors. Basically they are all the same beyond that. ;)

[Chris Tsutsui]

I know a panel saw isn't that convenient for ripping boards, jigs, using featherboards, and that sort. A contractor will use both a panel saw AND a cabinet saw depending on the task.

So a sliding table saw is just like a cabinet saw only it has the sliding table feature that a panel saw has?

I think I know what i want now... So can you just "lock" the table so it acts like a normal cabinet saw?

[Paul B. Cresti]

Why don't you read some of my past posts and perhaps they will give you my feeling on the subject at hand

http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=23389
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=23774
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=24502
hhttp://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=28088 (http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=28088)
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=26285
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=51355
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=34708
http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=29871

[Simon Dupay]

I know a panel saw isn't that convenient for ripping boards, jigs, using featherboards, and that sort. A contractor will use both a panel saw AND a cabinet saw depending on the task.

So a sliding table saw is just like a cabinet saw only it has the sliding table feature that a panel saw has?

I think I know what i want now... So can you just "lock" the table so it acts like a normal cabinet saw?
The shop at school and at work both have table and panel saws and the panel saws are almost never used for ripping, the slider gets in the way and the blade is much further back on a slider.

[Mauricio Zamora]

Dang it Paul! You just pushed me over the edge... The posts you had were fantastic! Now I have to sit down and figure out whether or not I want just a sliding table or a combination table. I am still leaning towards the former because I honestly think a shaper is overkill for me + I already have plenty of router table / bit setups.

From looking at your pics, is it accurate to say that you have the MM 315WS?

Actually - one more question for folks... Any advice on considering a used saw vs. retail? I have looked at a few sites and probably due to the economy... but there are tons of Felder, MM, etc. saws available everywhere - usually around a 2005-2006 model for about 1/2 the price. Any reputable dealers folks have used? Should I steer clear and buy a new one?

Finally - I already got a call back from MM while I am still waiting to hear back from Felder and Laguna. The MM guy didn't even try to pressure me and spent 20 minutes on the phone answering questions. He wouldn't say anything bad about the other vendors and instead just focused on what MM was trying to do. I walked away really impressed...

Thanks again everyone!

Mo

[johnny means]

Just a thought on "better" electronics. Last week I went to the Felder showroom to get a rotary sensor and possibly a single axis control module for my eight year old AD751. Now mind you a machine in this class is expected to survive an industrial environment for at least my professional life. Imagine my disdain when they informed me that they no longer supported that model and I had to have the last remaining spare part flown in from Germany. They didn't even have the information I needed to find the parts I might need (which I BTW was able to find online). All this while the salesman prodded me about buying a new 20" JP that he had on the floor. As if.

But I digress, my point is that maybe a little less technology laden, but solidly built machine might be a better choice if buying used. There are plenty of old Martins and Altendorfs out there right now. and a lot of them can be had for a really good price.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

There was a really nice CF 741 listed here a while back, for about half price. Looked barely used. Good used deals may be had, but you won't be able to configure as you would a new machine, which may not even matter. Johnny brings up another good point about used machines. You don't know what has happend to them. Chances are they are fine, but you know they are if you are the first owner.

My Felder uses mostly Lenze components. These are commercially available, not just through Felder. Personally I don't worry much about obsolete parts. Sure, you might have to source different channels to find something, but these are not usually proprietary Felder, or MM electronics.

As an aside, I wanted to add a remote start switch. With a bit of good guidance from a superb Felder support staff, and a little common sense, it was no problem. The switch is just redundant radio transmitters and recievers, wired into the control circuit of the controller. The variable speed and braking just comes from single phase running into a variable frequency drive running three phase motors. That also eliminates capacitors if I'm not mistaken, which should add reliability. Good solid proven tech.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Oh, one more thing, Minimax and Felder both have owners groups on Yahoo that may be helpful. Quite a few of the FOG guys post here too.

[lou sansone]

I have owned both and have a technomax 315ws slider now. love it. sliders are great. if the shop was big enough, I would have both : a good slider and a good TS

lou

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mauricio, as I indicated in my first post to you, I would reccomend going with the shaper.

You can run router bits in the Felder shaper if you order the high speed router spindle, and of course you can use shaper cutters in the shaper.

Once you've used a shaper, you won't want to go back to your router table.

Buying a used machine can be a wise financial strategy, if you find one you really like, you could pay Felder to send one of the field techs to provide a written assessment of the machine condition.

Regards, Rod.

[Mike Wilkins]

I recently went from a Rockwell/Delta Unisaw, to a Laguna Pro 6' Sliding Table Saw. I wish I had done this years ago. Due to the size of my shop(16 X 24) I went with the 6' slider; if you have the real estate, a saw with an 8' table would be even better. It does take some getting used to because of the different way you have to approach the machine, but I have no regrets.
Some advantages I have found:
1. Safety-your digits are far away from a spinning blade when cross-cutting.
2. Power-most of these machines have more powerful motors, even single
phase.
3. Dust collection-mine has a shroud around the blade, and a hood over the
blade to catch dust thrown upwards.
4. Ripping-you can clamp the board to the sliding table to straight-line rip a
board, where you used to use the rip fence. I do have a rip fence, but it is
kind of lonely these days.
5. Riving knife-I have had kickbacks with my other saws; not a concern with
these type machines. A board being launched at you is no fun.
6. Scoring-I don't cut sheet goods very often, but this feature is nice.

There are few, if any, aftermarket jigs made for sliding tablesaws. Some of the big manufacturers(Martin for instance) do market some for their machines, but they are proud of them. I have ideas to make my own for things such as taper cuts, ripping to width, joinery, etc.
If possible, find someone in your area that has a slider, any company, and try to get a first hand look. Good luck and watch those fingers.

[Ron Bott]

Get your nice table saw & a DEWALT TRACK SAW to breakdown 4X8 sheet goods . . .

You will get table saw accurate cuts with none of the hassle . .

Steve:)

+1. This is the what I do, works great.

[Paul B. Cresti]

From looking at your pics, is it accurate to say that you have the MM 315WS?


Mo

I had a 315ws and then sold it and bought the larger Formula S35. I do not think MM sells the S35 anymore with their badge on it. The s35 was always made directly by SCM (the parent company) and I think it is now sold under SCM as the Nova line