plane set up

[joe oski]

I'm certain its been covered previously somewhere, just not where I'm searching.
I've never been able to get the plane blade to cut parallel to the sole, and always wind up setting it for a really light cut to compensate, and then sanding, sanding, sanding. Basicall rendering it useless for any real work. Not that I'm a great woodworker anyhow.
Please point me to some instructions on setup and use.
I've only learned hand planes from uncles who hack the door till it doesn't stick no more

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Hey Joe...

Tell us a bit more, what are you trying to achieve? Are you "hogging" out with a scrub or trying to get a glass, finished surface?

[scott spencer]

It might also be useful to know more about the plane itself.

[Joel Goodman]

Maybe it's both an lateral adjustment issue and also an issue of camber. Are you having a problem of plane "tracks" - ridges in the surface? If so cambering the blade will help a lot. In terms of lateral adjustment I use a small (1/4 X 2"X 4 or 5") piece of wood and shave it against the blade -- first on the left side and then right side -- adjusting until I have both the shaving thickness I want and an equal shaving on both sides. This takes longer to describe than to do. Cambering is putting a very slight curve on the iron so that the edge of the cut sort of tapers to zero so that there are no ridges in the finished surface. A very sharp blade is also needed for any of this to work correctly. I'm assuming that you are trying to put a finished surface on your project with a plane.

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

Also, a very flat sole is needed. I know when I started out w/ a Stanley No 5 jack plane, i had a terrible time because the sole was slightly concave at the mouth. This resulted in a very difficult time getting the plane to work nicely.

After much sharpening of the blade and attempting to flatten the sole on a granite slab w/ wet sandpaper, I gave up. My Lie nielsen works perfectly...

There is nothing wrong with any stanley no. 5, my particular one happens to be from the early 80's and rode around the back of a pickup truck i think...my point is, it wasn't really taken care of by the guy my Dad got it from, and when I got it, I put way too many hours into making it try to work. Hence the giving up part and just buying a LN No 5.5. Mmmm....LN 5.5...

[Tom Adger]

When you say "cut parallel to the sole", do you mean that one edge of the shaving is thicker than the other? If that is the case, it sounds like you need to play with the lateral adjustment lever to get the shaving the same thickness all the way across.

[Jim Koepke]

Joe,

Welcome to the Creek, jump on in and hang on as you go down the slope.


I'm certain its been covered previously somewhere, just not where I'm searching.
I've never been able to get the plane blade to cut parallel to the sole, and always wind up setting it for a really light cut to compensate, and then sanding, sanding, sanding. Basicall rendering it useless for any real work. Not that I'm a great woodworker anyhow.
Please point me to some instructions on setup and use.
I've only learned hand planes from uncles who hack the door till it doesn't stick no more

Your profile does not show your location. If you are near me, I would be happy to pay a visit and show you all I know about planes. Should take a minute or two.:cool:

You do not mention what plane(s) you are having a problem with.

Also, when taking heavy cuts with a plane, the surface will not be supper smooth. To get the glass like surface some talk about with planes, requires an extremely sharp blade taking a fine cut. Besides, it is not like glass. If you hold it at an angle and look just right at it, it will look mirror like, but at best, you will have some very smooth wood which sanding will not be able to improve.

Everyone eventually finds their own methods for doing the same thing, Joel mentions using a small block to check shavings and a cambered blade. This is something I do with planes like a Stanley 45 or 55. Sometimes I also use it on other planes. John mentions his travails with trying to flatten a sole. All of this is worthy of consideration. My method works for me and will also reveal any problems with the plane.

To start, this is my practice even with a new acquisition. Often if the plane is in usable shape, the following procedures are used to evaluate a plane. These instructions are for the Stanley/Bailey type of plane. They should work for any "bench type" plane. Block planes and specialty planes are a separate matter, but similar in some ways.

The screw for holding the lever cap in place needs to be adjusted to hold the lever cap so the lateral adjuster can be moved when the lever is down. It should not be loose, but it should not take undue force to move. Pressing with your thumb while your hand is on the tote should be enough to make it move.

Set the plane so the blade is just starting to be visible from the bottom of the plane. Look at the blade from the underside of the plane. Does it look parallel to the mouth? This can be an indicator of many things; the blade could be sharpened off square, the frog could be turned from square on it seat, the blade may not be sitting square on the frog, one side of the surface on the frog could be catching the blade more than the other causing the blade to turn as it is being adjusted. or the mouth may not be square to the sole.

With a piece of scrap wood held in a vice, the plane is slowly pushed along the surface, usually an edge but a face will work, while the adjuster is advancing the blade. As soon as shavings start to appear, the plane is checked on either side for the full length of the board. Often, one side is producing a shaving and one side is not. This would require some use of the lateral adjuster or if the plane is a pre-lateral, a few taps with a small mallet or hammer. The Stanley planes have the lateral set up with the disk engaging the blade below the pivot. So, if the blade is cutting on the right and not the left, then the lateral needs to be pushed to the side that is cutting too deep. This can be lot of trial and error. Sometimes, I will run the plane along the edge of a board while adjusting the lever. The plane can be moved from one side to the other while this is being done. The goal is to produce as thin a shaving as possible to the full width of the blade.

This method helps to determine a lot of things about what is taking place.

Important things to consider before and while doing this.

1) Is the blade sharp. This is one reason for attempting as thin a shaving as possible. A dull blade will not be able to cut a super thin shaving. It will produce dust or a thick shaving. If it makes ribbons, then there are likely nicks in the blade. Some woods will produce dust or ribbons when a sharp blade is set for a thin shaving. Find a scrap piece of something like pine of poplar to use for setting up your planes.

2) Is the edge of the blade square to the plane? This is one reason a plane may not cut on one side. The sides of a plane blade are not always parallel. If a blade is fairly square to the sides and the slot is parallel to the sides yet the blade is not coming through the plane square, then there is either a problem with the base or the frog. Most common is the frog being turned in such a way to effect the blade. This will require spending some time getting to know the frog and how it seats.

3) Wood grain has direction and it isn't always going the way it looks. I know this may sound over simple to some, but there are times when it seems like I am going with the grain and the wood is not cooperating. Turn the piece around. Often one piece can have grain reversals. This is especially true if there are any knots in the wood.

When my plan seems to be set, a shaving will be taken off the edge of the board from the left side of the plane and another using the right side of the blade. These are compared. The feel of one shaving compared to another will become just as good as measuring with a micrometer in telling you if the blade is cutting even. My preference is to get a full width shaving.

Another problem can be if the sole is not flat or especially if the sole is not in a plane parallel to the base of the frog. If you are getting uneven shavings across the width of the blade, the sole may need lapping. This is not the same as getting a shaving that is fatter on one side than the other. This would be more like getting a fat shaving at the edges and a thin shaving or no shaving in the center. This could also be caused by an improperly sharpened blade.

Your comment about having to take thin shavings then sanding sounds like you have a sharpness problem to work on.

The only other thing I can think of if you are trying to get a square edge on a board and having trouble with that. squaring a boards edge is a different matter and is something learned with time. I have been doing this for a few years now and I still have to look at my edges and give them a little correction at times.

Planing tracks can be dealt with by not taking thick shavings and then when it is as smooth/flat as it is going to get, go from one side of the piece to the other eliminating any tracks with very light strokes. Some like to camber their blade to take care of this. What ever works for you is the best way to do it.

Without more information, this is about all that I can offer.

More specific explanations of why you feel you have to "take light shavings and then sand, sand, sand" may be of help in finding what can be changed to make your planing more useful for you.

jim

[Prashun Patel]

"Without more information, this is about all that I can offer."

Boy, I'd love to see what you offer with 'more information'...

Thanks.

[joe oski]

Planes aren't handy so I can't give model # even if its on them
I've got an old sears 8" my dad butchered doors with, I've got a stanley 18" my uncle used on wooden boat work, somewhere lost in the moving piles is a stanley about 1 1/2 " wide that cuts up to the left side.(if the son in law didn't borrow that also)

I've attempted to use the 18"er to do a table top, I glued up. Yep I can hack some rotten chips off the high spots, but always wind up with a big piece of 2x3 flat steel from work wrapped in sandpaper. S L O W sanding.

I keep trying to use that stupid arm lever to adjust sideways shaving, push a little push a little more oops to far, use the thumbwheel for depth, tighten clamp- everybody moves - either out to far or not enough to shave anything. GRrrrr maybe no coordination on my part

Have even tried shims under the sole, let gravity drop blade, clamp it---doesn't work either- wasn't expecting it to anyhow

Will have to find and fill in profile!!!!

[Jim Koepke]

Planes aren't handy so I can't give model # even if its on them
I've got an old sears 8" my dad butchered doors with, I've got a stanley 18" my uncle used on wooden boat work, somewhere lost in the moving piles is a stanley about 1 1/2 " wide that cuts up to the left side.(if the son in law didn't borrow that also)

I've attempted to use the 18"er to do a table top, I glued up. Yep I can hack some rotten chips off the high spots, but always wind up with a big piece of 2x3 flat steel from work wrapped in sandpaper. S L O W sanding.

I keep trying to use that stupid arm lever to adjust sideways shaving, push a little push a little more oops to far, use the thumbwheel for depth, tighten clamp- everybody moves - either out to far or not enough to shave anything. GRrrrr maybe no coordination on my part

Have even tried shims under the sole, let gravity drop blade, clamp it---doesn't work either- wasn't expecting it to anyhow

Will have to find and fill in profile!!!!


The Sears 8" may be a #3 or #4 equivalent. The 18" plane is most likely a #6.

When you say, "tighten clamp- everybody moves," it sounds like you are talking about the lever cap. The screw holding this in place should be loose enough that you can make adjustments without unclamping and re-clamping the lever cap. This is different on a block plane, don't worry about that right now. If there is rust or pitting on the the mating surfaces between the blade and where it seats (the frog) this can cause adjustment difficulties.

When I make lateral adjustments, I will often have my left hand's thumb and fingers on both sides of the blade to feel the movement. I will watch the lever and blade to see any movement. It often only takes a very slight movement to make the adjustment. I have even drawn a line on the blade at the edge of the lateral adjuster to watch the movement between the two.

"I can hack some rotten chips off the high spots," sounds like you may have a dull blade. A sharp blade can make all the difference in the world.

Another SMC member has made podcasts that can be watched on line and covers sharpening tools. I have not watched more than a minute or two of these, but I am sure Robert can teach us all few things. I will likely watch them later. There are a few on sharpening.

> http://logancabinetshoppe.weebly.com/podcast.html <

As many woodworkers as there are here, we still all sharpen differently. If we pay attention, we can all learn from each other.

For your personal profile, click on the spot towards the top of the screen that says > User CP < That is the User Control Panel and lets you set your options.

Have fun,

jim

[Prashun Patel]

Depth and lateral adjustment are important, but to this neophyte, the single most important thing is a good, sharp blade. I didn't have my a-ha moment until I got that right.

[Sam Takeuchi]

Like other guys said, until blades are sharpened, they won't work right no matter what. It's not about you coordination or skill, as long as blades are dull, it's as good as broken even for the most skilled woodworker.

Thing is, sharpening is a skill that takes time and effort to develop, so if you want to use hand planes, you need to learn to sharpen over time. And sharpening equipments do cost some money, too. This is a good place to learn about sharpening, there are a lot of info here, but you'll still have to practice.

Once you get blades sharpened, you'll be able to start working with those planes. Until then, there isn't much that can be said to make it better.

[joe oski]

When you say, "tighten clamp- everybody moves," it sounds like you are talking about the lever cap. The screw holding this in place should be loose enough that you can make adjustments without unclamping and re-clamping the lever cap. This is different on a block plane, don't worry about that right now. If there is rust or pitting on the the mating surfaces between the blade and where it seats (the frog) this can cause adjustment difficulties.

Screw should be looser????
Those babys have always been tight as 2 glued boards!
Remember Dad saying "to keep it from moving"

[Sam Takeuchi]

Yes it should be looser. If it's too tight, it'll cause unnecessary stress on the tool as well as making adjustment difficult. It's hard to explain how tight/loose it should be. I guess in my word, it'd be "tight enough that you can't adjust blade by hand, loose enough that depth and lateral adjusters move the blade smoothly without forcing." If you have to unclamp lever cap to make any adjustment, that's just impossible to make fine adjustment in any way and you won't ever make it to work properly except when you get the blade protrusion and lateral position just right by luck.

Fetch your planes, and then loosen lever cap screws so that lever cap is loose even in clamped position. Tighten the screw until you feel a bit of resistance once screw head hit the lever cap. From there, you just screw in ever so slightly, probably 1/8 turn or so ('or so' means it could be little less or little more, but really minute amount). That's about it. You should be able to make depth and lateral adjustment more freely without unclamping lever cap. It might feel too loose, but it should hold. Sharpen blade, and go for a few test cut, if blade stays in position, it should be good. If for some reason blade moves, give a itty bitty turn to tighten. That's about it. Unless there is something wrong with the bedding, you don't need any more than that.

[joe oski]

will have to give looser, moves while clamped a try.
The tight as while clamped (pry clamp with screwdriver) method I was instructed in , definatly sounds wrong now

thanks

[Phillip Pattee]

Joe,

I think you should watch the 8.5 minute infomercial by Ron Hock. He has great information in it. http://www.hocktools.com/ Pay attention to the sound the plane makes as it takes a shaving off the wood. The paper tearing sound is not a special effect (maybe the way the shaving float up and away is though). He also kind of shows you how tight to make the lever cap.

[Jim Koepke]

Depth and lateral adjustment are important, but to this neophyte, the single most important thing is a good, sharp blade. I didn't have my a-ha moment until I got that right.

Yes, from the "can hack some chips off the high spots" statement, my thoughts are that the blade is in need of sharpening.

I went quite a while before really learning this. Went a little longer before really understanding how to sharpen or what sharpness really can be.

jim

[joe oski]

while my sharpening could still you a little work (can't shave with it)

so far my biggest problem has been getting it to move in a smaller increment.
Loosening the screw may help a lot. I've been moving and then severely clamping it, causing it to make random movements on its own.

[Dan Barr]

i second a good inspection on sharpening. also checking the blade grind angle to make sure it is dead on 90 degrees. once those two things are down pat and a good look is given to adjustment, usually there is no more fettling required.

I polish up my blades (both sides; face and bevel) to a mirror finish before i even attempt to use the plane. personally, i use a leather strop or dead flat board and the yellow flexcut compound to polish depending on the blade shape. for flat blades i use the board. for rounded moulding blades i use the strop on the bevel and the board on the face. strokes are always the opposite of sharpening. whatever you do, dont raise the blade up while polishing the face. this will cause a micro-bevel on a surface that needs to be dead flat.

if this is not helpful, check the sole for flat and winding. you may need to do some work on it.

cheers!

dan

[joe oski]

additional questions

laid some fine grit paper on the surface plate and polished the bottom. definatly not flat. And my unbranded rabbet plane is twisted.
I have access to a machine shop, and grinders. Is the entire sole supposed to be flat? Stepped. My rabbet has 2 throats

Point me towards some maintenence/ repair area please

[Joel Goodman]

The sole (bottom) should be flat -- although opinion differs on how flat is required. But I think we would all agree that flatter is better. For the finest shavings pretty damn flat is needed. It is easy to create a convex sole if one is not careful when lapping -- don't ask me how I know that!

Johnny Kleso's site http://www.rexmill.com/ has some good info as does
http://www.sauerandsteiner.com/news/2007/09/lapping-sucks.html and
http://www.antiquetools.com/scrape/

The important thing is that the front of the mouth, the toe and the heel are all coplanar. Rexmill has some of David Charlesworth's stuff reprinted which is good info.

Look at the Lie Nielsen site as well http://www.lie-nielsen.com/ and you will also find some good info. If there is any way you can attend a LN event you will learn a lot about planes, get to try some that are set up properly, and can get some hands on sharpening instruction from some great folks. If you go bring your plane and I'm sure they'll give you a hand. These events are free and fun.

Re: the rabbet plane is also supposed to have a flat sole -- if it's a #78 the two throats are to give you an optional "bullnose" position to mount the iron in.

Welcome to the slope!

[Jim Koepke]

The sole (bottom) should be flat -- although opinion differs on how flat is required. But I think we would all agree that flatter is better. For the finest shavings pretty damn flat is needed. It is easy to create a convex sole if one is not careful when lapping -- don't ask me how I know that!

Just recently bought an interesting POS block plane. It had a concave sole and was vexing me during its trials until a strait edge was put to its sole.

It was actually flexing during the cut and would take a cut at the beginning but would stop cutting as it got further away. With less pressure exerted by my extended arm, the sole would flex up and lift the blade out of the work. This was a plane bought for a dollar with a few other items thrown in at a yard sale.

jtk

[Steve Hamlin]

Yes, depth and lateral adjustments should be made with the lever cap locked down.

Different folks like different clamping pressures from their lever cap. The tighter it is, the harder it will be to make smooth fine depth or lateral adjustments. For me, I like no more pressure than I'd want on a cupboard snap latch - positive, but a ten year old shouldn't have trouble with it.

If with a reasonably clamped lever cap, adjustments are still difficult, try polishing the upper surface of the frog (wedge shape the blade rests on) and back (bevelled side) of the blade (iron) with autosol or similar. You don't need a mirror finish, but even very light corrosion will make adjustments more difficult.

Check the lateral adjusment lever pivot and depth adjustment screw aren't gummed up - clean with a degreaser, and then use a light oil or copper grease. If the movement feels gritty, you may want to flush with pressurised WD40 or similar.

You should be able to make depth adjustments on the fly - with just your forefinger.

When making lateral adjustments, instead of putting (say) thumb on tote (handle) with finger on lateral adjustment lever and squeezing try putting thumb on adjustment leaver and fingers on the top of the blade and squeezing. This takes the spring from pressuring the tote out of the equation. Thumb and fingers obviously interchangeable - depending on plane orientation and which side you're adjusting towards.

For very fine adjustment, a toffee (very light) hammer is great for subtle lateral adjustments. Obviously, gently tap the side of the blade near the top - not the lateral lever.

[Edit - hadn't seen your comment about sharpness]
If you can't even shave with the blade, which doesn't require a particularly keen edge, it is very blunt. Suggest either using a guide or find someone to show you how to improve the edge.

[joe oski]

"The sole (bottom) should be flat"

Thats the answer I was looking for, although , I keep thinking of my jointer haveing different heights. Will definatly grind it flat.
I did find a matching plane on ebay, its an old sears. Sears stamped in blade but not on body. The acceserys are missing, but wil grind it and use it anyhow.
Now of course I need hints as to how far to get the blade out. Bloody thing does not have a depth adjustment screw. Was contemplating pieces of paper and gravity while clamping.
Unfortunatly I don't have any woodworking buddies around here to ask for show and tell
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/misc/progress.gif

[Larry Marshall]

There have been a couple mentions of the need for a "sharp" blade, but rarely is a definition given. This, in fact, may be your problem, thinking that if the planes were used to "hack off wood", that's how your planes should operate.

My advice is to pull the blade from the plane. Can you shave your arm with it? If you push it across the end-grain of a 2x4 does it make a clean cut? If these things aren't true, then the blade isn't sharp enough and no amount of adjusting will allow it to cut properly.

Cheers --- Larry

[Jim Koepke]

"The sole (bottom) should be flat"

Thats the answer I was looking for, although , I keep thinking of my jointer haveing different heights. Will definatly grind it flat.
I did find a matching plane on ebay, its an old sears. Sears stamped in blade but not on body. The acceserys are missing, but wil grind it and use it anyhow.
Now of course I need hints as to how far to get the blade out. Bloody thing does not have a depth adjustment screw. Was contemplating pieces of paper and gravity while clamping.
Unfortunatly I don't have any woodworking buddies around here to ask for show and tell


Yes, a flat sole helps. At this point, knowing more about the plane would help. Pictures of what is missing might also help. Without a depth adjuster or the screw to mount it on, it is no wonder you are having difficulties.

I have some spare Stanley brass adjusters for bench planes.

jim

[joe oski]

You'll have to visit ebay for a image of craftsman rabbet plane. I tried copy and paste and can't get an image to here

My missing parts are an edge stop and depth stop.
Blade adjustment will probably be by brass hammer

[Jim Koepke]

You'll have to visit ebay for a image of craftsman rabbet plane. I tried copy and paste and can't get an image to here

My missing parts are an edge stop and depth stop.
Blade adjustment will probably be by brass hammer

Posting an image on SMC requires either a URL or an actual image to attach. If there are other ways, I am not aware of them. With a Macintosh, this is easy to do within the system software. With a PC, if it can be done without third party software, no one has been able to tell me how.

If this is the plane you have:

134342

It does require adjustment by way of light taps with a hammer. This would be a very light hammer and often with a brass head and a hard wood face.

This type of plane is made for hogging off wood for joinery. It is not an ideal plane for surfacing wood. I know this because I tried back in the day when this was one of my only planes. Mine is a Record and does have an adjuster.

jim

[Paul Ryan]

Joe,

I am going to add my .02 not because I am an expert, actually far from it. Everyone on this forum knows more about planes than I do. But I am still a newbie like you. I got a hand me down stanley #4 about a year ago. Bought a veritas medium shoulder then a #5 stanley off ebay, and then a 62 1/2 block plane. I am still much more and electrical junkie but I use the planes more and more all of the time. Believe it or not they save time over setting up an electrical tool many times. Before I started learning how to use planes I was certian I would buy a drum sander this year. But now I have retired that idea because of my increasing skill with planes. The think that helped me get over that hump of full with shavings was a razor sharp edge. I had tried scary sharp, water stones, but then fell into a real good deal on the work sharp 3000. Using that machine I now have my irons as sharp as kitchen knives. I could shave my face with them. Once I got the irons so sharp the final adjustments came pretty easy. But dont forget all of the other advice from everyone else, a flat sole is also very importanat. Good luck.

[joe oski]

Jim, yep thats the beast
As long as I'm going to work and grinding the sole(and sides- its twisted), will do my other 2 planes as well.

Now for a dumb computer question:
how come 1/2 my sawmill mail goes to my spam folder where I seldom venture? Like todays
other ques:
1/2 the time when using the link in sawmills email it only displays the last reply and I have to work my way back into the thread to see the other replys.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, yep thats the beast
As long as I'm going to work and grinding the sole(and sides- its twisted), will do my other 2 planes as well.

When you mention grinding the soles and sides, I hope you are using abrasive paper on a flat surface and not attempting to do this with a bench grinder.


Now for a dumb computer question:
how come 1/2 my sawmill mail goes to my spam folder where I seldom venture? Like todays
other ques:
1/2 the time when using the link in sawmills email it only displays the last reply and I have to work my way back into the thread to see the other replys.

This would be a question for the tech forum. I used to be a computer tech kind of guy, but CPM and then DOS was always a PITA to me, then I used a Macintosh and have not looked back.

jim

[joe oski]

was referring to surface grinder at place I'm laid off from (still doing personal work there)

[mike holden]

Joe,
See that you are in Hell, Michigan. Suggest you go to the SE Michigan woodworkers website, and see when the next meeting is. They meet near Ann Arbor. Bring your plane (and some cookies - traditional for first timers - really) and you will get more advice and help than you can stand! (grin) Good group of people, willing to help.

go to semiww dot org slash forum

click on "meetings, gatherings, and news" and find the meeting times and places. You missed the neanderthal meeting for this month which was on handplane tuning, but there will be people at the regular meeting who will help.

Mike