A comparison of two businesses

[David Freed]

Before you read this long-winded diatribe, I will say that I really don’t have a reason for writing it other than I have been thinking about it after the conversations I have had with my brother-in-law, Joe.



During every conversation with Joe for the last few years this subject always comes up. He worked at a sawmill and ran the mill when the owner wasn’t around. He finally got tired of the aggravation and quit after working there 20 years.

The main problem was the management style. The owner is a real tightwad and did not want to spend the money to fix things. Joe would have to continually patch things together to keep the mill running. Not only did he not want to buy the right parts, he would grumble about the duct tape and baling wire fixes Joe had to buy to keep things going. He paid minimum wage to most of the help and was always grumbling because the people that would apply for a job there were drunks, druggies, lazy, etc. A couple of years ago he thought he was really on to something when he hired a Mexican because he had heard that they work real hard for very little money. After hiring 3 of them, he found out that a lot of Mexicans are lazy too.

It wasn’t always that way. When my Joe was hired there were several good workers there even though he was only paying minimum wage then also. As time went by, the owner started hiring his nephews, grandsons, etc. Most of them are just as lazy, but also have an attitude. Some of the jobs they would flat out refuse to do and they would get away with it because they were relatives. They were also getting paid a lot better than minimum wage.

Joe was in charge of trying to make them all do their jobs right. They sawed mainly grade lumber, but also had a pallet mill to run the lower grade lumber through. Joe would repeatedly show the stackers how to trim and stack, as well as what should go into which stack. It was just a wasted effort. They were paying such little attention that they would stack a poplar board into a walnut bundle. It was so bad that at the place they sold their lumber to, out of a semi load of lumber, 1 or 2 entire bundles would be thrown away every load. That is lumber that should have went through the pallet mill. Joe isn’t real sure how much good lumber was cut up into pallets.


That gives you an idea of how it was for Joe to work there. I know the owner and his son real well. On 2 or 3 occasions I talked to the son about why they didn’t hire some good help to stop the losses. It basically boiled down to the fact that his dad couldn’t make himself pay a decent wage because he thought that was throwing money away. Another thing that would really raise the owners blood pressure was to mention insurance or benefits of any kind. That was an extreme waste of money in his opinion.

Compare that to the place I work at now. They want competent people that will work and do their job right and have no problem paying wages good enough that they have almost no turnover in their workforce. They provide fully paid insurance as well as several other benefits. They are very easy to work for. If someone needs some time off for any reason, they don’t even have to ask. They just tell their foreman when they aren’t going to be there. The owner’s philosophy is that if you aren’t there, you are hurting your paycheck worse than his. Sales have increased almost every year since they started over 30 years ago, including last year and the year before when many businesses were closing.

Although both businesses were making money, the mill owner caused himself a lot of overall aggravation because of the way he ran things, and now he has lost the best worker he had because of it. I just don't understand some peoples way of thinking. :confused:

[Steve Rozmiarek]

David, those cheapskate knuckle heads are everywhere. I think it is greed that motivates them. They will go to crazy lengths to not pay anyone anything, at great and obvious expense to their own businesses. Something I learned long ago, just avoid doing business of any sort with those folks. They will be a pain if money is involved.

Funny thing is, some of them that I've met are genuinly nice folks, until money comes up.

[Mike Henderson]

I thought of Costco while I was reading your post. When I go to Costco, I see workers who have been there many years. When I ask them about their job and how they like working for Costco, they all say positive things.

I understand that Costco pays a decent wage, provides benefits, and treats their people well. I can understand why people stay there.

I hear stories about WalMart and they're not the same stories I hear about Costco.

Mike

[Ben Franz]

I think it comes down to how you value other people and maybe how that depends on how you value yourself. Cheapskate business owners can't see the value in their employees and never figure out that treating them (and the customers) well is better business and, in the end, more profitable. None so blind as those who will not see...

[David G Baker]

The TV network that I worked for until I retired was the greatest place in the world to work for until it got sold. The employees would go way out of their way to make sure things got on the air with the best possible quality. In the 5 or so years prior to my retiring the quality of work went way down hill, major errors would appear on the air and a very large number of the highest quality employees took buy-outs, retired or just left.
The station would function very well if there were no managers in the building because everyone was dedicated to doing their job. Now nothing gets done with out manager supervision. Most of the imitative has been destroyed. The station was number one in the San Francisco market for years, haven't checked recently but the last time I checked they were in 3rd or 4th place.
Like Ben wrote, many employers do not value their employees. Many do not understand that the employees are the real money makers for the business.

[Brian Kent]

I know this is off the topic of the Off Topic thread, but I looked t your picture and you know, you have really changed. I don't remember you being so furry before.:rolleyes:

Brian

[Justin Cavender]

I work for a guy like that right now but he expects perfection lightning fast for no money. I am searching for something else right now

[Phil Thien]

No guarantee that good pay will net a good employee.

Pretty much guaranteed to net a poor employee with poor pay.

The best way to get the most from your employees is to surround them with other great workers with positive attitudes.

I've witnessed first-hand a 200-employee manufacturing company destroyed by one bad apple. Management kept him because of his technical skills (which were significant).

It cost them the farm.

[Neal Clayton]

careful you don't threaten people's assumptions. after all, they'll dress up in stupid costumes and throw instant tea at each other for 100 dollars a year in unemployment tax, or 2% on the tax bracket they're not in. and it goes without saying (for people who have never run a business) that an extra 15-20 cents above the current minimum wage would cause their world to implode.

[Karl Brogger]

bil = Brother In Law?

Just type it. You're willing to type out 700 words, but not the extra 20 or so?

This is my crusade. This forum is absolutely terrible about it.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

careful you don't threaten people's assumptions. after all, they'll dress up in stupid costumes and throw instant tea at each other for 100 dollars a year in unemployment tax, or 2% on the tax bracket they're not in. and it goes without saying (for people who have never run a business) that an extra 15-20 cents above the current minimum wage would cause their world to implode.


Neal, what on earth are you talking about?

[David Freed]

bil = Brother In Law?

Just type it. You're willing to type out 700 words, but not the extra 20 or so?

This is my crusade. This forum is absolutely terrible about it.
Fixed. Not his real name.



Neal, what on earth are you talking about?
I was wondering the same thing; although I can't say much. People wonder what I am saying sometimes too.

[Greg Peterson]

careful you don't threaten people's assumptions. after all, they'll dress up in stupid costumes and throw instant tea at each other for 100 dollars a year in unemployment tax, or 2% on the tax bracket they're not in. and it goes without saying (for people who have never run a business) that an extra 15-20 cents above the current minimum wage would cause their world to implode.

The employee is obligated to perform, to the fullest of his abilities, the task to which he is compensated, regardless his satisfaction/dissatisfaction with his pay. If a worker isn't satisfied with his wage, he is free to gain employment elsewhere. The employer is under no obligation to pay an employee above the legal minimum wage.

[Orion Henderson]

We are all free agents and there is no salary cap. Some places are terrible to work and some are not. If your talents are being under utilized, you are being mistreated, or you are being overpaid/overworked you are fully free to find somewhere else. And you should. Don't reward lousy owners or bosses if they don't deserve it or at least reward you properly for it.

[Steve Southwood]

Back when I was a supervisor, I had a saying. "The door that led you in, will lead you out." Always worked pretty good.

[Greg Peterson]

The employee is obligated to perform, to the fullest of his abilities, the task to which he is compensated, regardless his satisfaction/dissatisfaction with his pay. If a worker isn't satisfied with his wage, he is free to gain employment elsewhere. The employer is under no obligation to pay an employee above the legal minimum wage.

What I said above is textbook stuff.

We all know the practical side of this is a lot more complicated and not so black and white. Few people are able to just jump to another job at will. And as someone that is responsible for hiring new workers I tend to frown on persons that have a hard time staying at one job for less than a few years.

If employers and employees simply fulfilled their minimal requirements, neither party would be particularly happy. So how does one foster an environment where both sides are content and respect is reciprocated? It isn't always about money. Simply giving out an 'atta boy, you're doing a great job' goes a long way towards creating a workplace environment where one feels appreciated. And there is nothing wrong with a worker giving his boss an 'atta boy'. Everyone appreciates a compliment.

[Lee Schierer]

My only question is why Joe waited 20 years before he left.

I used to work for his former boss's cousin or other close relative. He couldn't understand why we all weren't in the office (salaried) and shop (hourly) 12 hours a day. They made one retirement contribution in 12 years and periodically charged more for benefits, but refused to make customers pay for additions to projects. Their attitude was we'll make money on the next project with that customer which didn't happen. I really liked the type of work we did, but got fed up with the management style. Needless to say I don't work there anymore, my choice not theirs....

[Neal Clayton]

The employee is obligated to perform, to the fullest of his abilities, the task to which he is compensated, regardless his satisfaction/dissatisfaction with his pay. If a worker isn't satisfied with his wage, he is free to gain employment elsewhere. The employer is under no obligation to pay an employee above the legal minimum wage.

compensation can be in all sorts of ways, not strictly limited to money. before i became self employed, the last job i had, for the previous 7 years or so, gave us 6 weeks of vacation every year and full paid medical, which i thought was more than fair so worked to the best of my ability for my 7 years there. the previous job i worked before that for about 3 years, i wound up making less than the people i hired after all of the unpaid overtime they asked me to put in. i left my pager (before there were cell phones) and keys to the place in a bag for them in the mailbox without so much as a phone call at that place when i walked out.

do i feel guilty about the latter? was i obligated to show up to work? not really, i was the one who had to cut the hours of people who wanted to work at that job at the behest of the management when they felt like squeezing a few extra bucks out of a quarter. they didn't feel like they owed the people who wanted to work there anything, why should i feel like i owed them anything on my way out the door? the former did cut staff here and there, but in a different manner, when people left or moved to other departments they just didn't replace them, which also seemed fair to those of us who remained. as a result, everyone stayed there for many years and there was little or no issue with the products we produced.

short answer: no one is obligated. if i'm running a business i can pick 5 people on any given morning and send them home. if i'm working for a business, i can quit any given morning and go home. a contract is between two parties, not one and another. there's a difference. employees will work as hard as they feel they're being compensated for, as clearly illustrated in the OP. if employees feel that they're being paid less than they're working for, they often work less again than what they're being paid.

if the employer is content to pay employees a bare minimum and try to complain work into being done, he's capable of doing so. if the employees choose to refuse his complaints and do the bare minimum amount of work required to avoid being fired, they're capable of doing so.

on neither side of that negotiation does there exist obligation.

[David Freed]

My only question is why Joe waited 20 years before he left.
It didn't get out of hand until the last couple of years.



We are all free agents and there is no salary cap. Some places are terrible to work and some are not. If your talents are being under utilized, you are being mistreated, or you are being overpaid/overworked you are fully free to find somewhere else. And you should. Don't reward lousy owners or bosses if they don't deserve it or at least reward you properly for it.

In this lousy economy that is easier said than done. It took me almost a year to find something else that paid at least as much as I was making. As it turned out the job I was finally able to get turned out to be a good one that pays a lot better.

[Greg Peterson]

These days it seems that entrepreneurs are more highly valued than the people they hire. Workers are a necessary evil, and any way to minimize this expense is to be embraced.

Not sure how we got to the point where workers are the bad guys, but darn it, here we are. Everywhere you turn it's those pesky workers wanting a handout.

[glenn bradley]

I thought of Costco while I was reading your post.

So was I. We lost our favorite bakery guy at our local Costco. He and his brand new wife both worked there and loved the job. They both moved up in the company after completing their master's degrees with Costco's help. Hmmm, invest in your employees? What a concept.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

So was I. We lost our favorite bakery guy at our local Costco. He and his brand new wife both worked there and loved the job. They both moved up in the company after completing their master's degrees with Costco's help. Hmmm, invest in your employees? What a concept.


I've had 160 something employees now, and have enjoyed working with about 1/3 of them. Of that 1/3, probably 70% were kids working into a career, so just moving through. Three of the remaining bunch actually got it. The difference in them was that they worked like my business was theirs. Employees that think like they are self employeed are few and far between, but are the ones that I reward. It sounds like Costco might give this sort of employee a path up.

[Karl Brogger]

The difference in them was that they worked like my business was theirs. Employees that think like they are self employeed are few and far between, but are the ones that I reward.


That's because essentially anybody who is worth a crap goes on their own. At least in the trades it works that way.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

That's because essentially anybody who is worth a crap goes on their own. At least in the trades it works that way.

It is in my business too. Pretty amazing what a little initiative and an opportunity can do. I can think of 6 guys without trying too hard, who took a crappy job as on the job training and now run multi million dollar companies. None of them have degrees either. Quite a group of guys. The six of them grow roughly 1/4 of the northern beans (think baked beans) grown in the world. Five of them eventually bought out the owners of the first jobs, and grew massively, the sixth has grown a family business.

[Greg Peterson]

That's because essentially anybody who is worth a crap goes on their own. At least in the trades it works that way.

This is an extreme oversimplification. This may be standard procedure in the trades, but there are many other work places where 'going on their own' is not an option. Next time you're out and about count the number of workers that could quit their job and start up their own business doing what they are currently doing.