Newbie Question

[Dave Rust]

Hi All,

Yes this is a "typical" newbie question (got to start somewhere).

Situation:
I have been researching ideas for a hobby that I can work into a home business when I retire... I have looked at a sign shop pretty close and decided against it because of the space required... I have been researching Laser engraving, reading the forums and I am impressed with what you guys are doing! After some research, I am looking at the Mini24 and the Helix24...

Questions:
1. What is a reasonable expectation of having this machine pay for itself?
2. Is it reasonable to think I can get this thing paid for in 3 years knowing that I am a newbie (lots to learn) and working it part time??
3. What are the most profitable jobs I should pursue to get this machine paid for? (Craft shows, wedding planners, school fund raisers, gun stocks)

I don't mind laying out $30k if I can recoup it over a period of time... I just do not know enough about the business to have a feel for what kind of returns I can get doing this...

I live in southern New Hampshire and work full time.

Thanks in advance for your comments... Go easy on the newbie, I am fact gathering!:o

Dave

[Darren Null]

Your questions are fairly unanswerable considering you don't know what you want to do with the machine yourself. From personal experience and tales from here I'd say that you need to be focussed (heh!) and know exactly what markets you intend to go for and -more specifically- how you intend to go about it if you want to stand any chance of recouping your money.

If getting your money back is the main aim, I'd recommend buying:
1) A vinyl cutter
2) A decent dye-sub printer
3) A heat press
...instead of a laser, thus saving yourself $25,000 or so while still being able to bid for a wide variety of the same jobs.

So, to answer your questions then:

1) Not unless you have a clear idea of what you want to do, and have advertising, consumables, goodwill and everything else all budgeted for. Check also for: competing businesses on your patch; can you get supplies locally or can you afford to keep enough in stock to cover postal lag; do you have the time?
2) See above.
3) Craft shows would seem to have a high old-boy-network risk. Don't bank on anything there. Wedding planners are primarily interested in pimping their own services- you can make money, but you're dependent upon others for your living...do you want to be in this position? Gun stocks...same. Sign fabrication in a B2B arrangement seems to pay off, but can you get the contracts?

Can you make $30,000 clear profit in 3 years doing it as a hobby and with no clear idea of what you want to do? Theoretically possible, but the odds are against you.

[Keith Outten]

I have to agree with Darren.

I would add an item 4 to his list:
4) CNC Router

Half the cost of a good laser engraver and several times more profitable.

The vinyl cutter is a good idea, they are reasonably inexpensive and there is a lot of vinyl work out there. This makes it easier to get started. Try to stay away from making trinkets, the few people who buy them are only willing to pay pennies :(

If you are determined to purchase a laser engraver give some thought to making your own products rather than engraving photos and such. Getting started with no existing business is tough at best and can take a long time before you see any real income.
.

[Rodne Gold]

Its not whether you can pay the machine back- cos you might as well keep the money in the bank in that case...it's whether you can pay yourself that matters.
It all boils down to marketing and promotion..you really dont need more than 3 months to get technically proficient.
The big question you got to answer is : If I bought a laser...why would ppl use me?

[David Fairfield]

The standard advice is get a laser if you can use it to enhance or make more efficiently something you are already doing. I think its good advice.

If you are getting one in the hope of finding a niche to fill and recoup your investment, that's gonna be tough. You have to build a business up from zero, in a saturated and competitive market.

The good thing is, 30k really isn't all that much for a start up fee, compared to something like a restaurant, which is a high failure risk from the get go.

I don't think I can answer your questions specifically. But I'd say if you have the money and won't suffer if you don't make it back, then get the machine as a hobby that might go commercial. You'll definitely learn a lot, amaze yourself, and have creative fun while you're at it. Can't put a price on that.

Dave

[Tim Bateson]

I agree with the previous remarks. As a person who ONLY has the laser - I'm looking at 10 years & I bought mine used. That can be a big cost savings to you too - look around and you'll find a lot of gently used lasers.

After 2 years in this laser business/hobby, I think I'm qualified to say your 3 year goal is doable under any of the following conditions:
1. You have more luck than a Leprechaun (see #4 & #5)
2. You can read minds
3. You have a rich uncle about to die and leave you everything
4. You hit the jackpot in Vegas
5. You win the lottery
:cool:

[Wayne Sparkman]

I'd add another vote to the CNC option, simply becauuse of the wide variety of commercial applications.

I was involved with three sign companies, all architectural graphics, at their start-up, my own being the only one that lasted any real length of time (10 years), and if I had to go back into that field today, I'd focus on CNC and would diversify outside of the sign market into other fields. Lots of options on products you can sell.

If you decide to take the plunge on this idea, whether engraving, vinyl or CNC, it would probably be best to focus on just one technology at least while you are still employed full-time elsewhere. Give yourself time to master that technology before branching out.

Another thing to consider is the difficulty of doing this part-time, presumably in the evenings. Unless your current work allows a flex-schedule, another hurdle is that most customers will expect you to be available during regular business hours. I agree that the craft circuit is a grind, and a very uncertain one at that. The real money is in commercial applications. Signs are one possibility, but there's also a lot of competition there too. In my own city, there are over one hundred sign companies, and an over-all population of less than 600,000. When commerical construction slowed, then stopped, it was time to get out of the sign business!

[Martin Boekers]

A quick way to figure this out may be is to contact a banker or the SBA and try to see what they would loan you to start this up.

Then the reality will set in.

This is a tough time to start any sort of business. Esp one that for the most part is a non-essential.

Now on the other hand, if this is really going to be a hobby first and a business second. That's another story:).

If you have the funds go for it! May people spend that and more for their hobbies, such as boats, cars, motorcycles etc and have fun! If you make a few bucks along the way all the better.

I would recommend, like others have said get a used laser (the more power the better). This way it will keep your investment down in the learning stage. There is quite a learning curve in this industry. Not just learning the laser but telling the laser what and how to do it. (software).

After working with it awhile you may come to the conclusion this business is crazy what was I thinking!:D

There is some very sage advice her, vinyl plotters are cheap (set-up under $4000) Dye Sub (set-up under $3000, supplies, & inks are a killer though)
CNC (under $10,000) Color laser transfer (under $2000). If you already have a computer or a heat press this will cut some of the start up costs.

One thing though, don't take too many things on at one time. Each has their own learning curve and can get confusing.

Good luck on your new adventure!


Marty

[Dave Rust]

Thanks All !!

You gave me a lot to think about. I like to inquire and find out facts before I spend $$. You all are a valuable resource and I thank you for your honest responses.

Tim, you are hilarious!!:D

Dave Rust

[Randy Digby]

Good point about the vinykl cutter, Darren. My rotary engravers have, by far given the greatest ROI of any of my equipment, but the vinyl cutter paid for itself the fastest. Getting into vinyl will expose you to the sign/engraving business without much pain, just to see if you like it or not. Besides your basic sign shop business for advertising type signs, you can tap the industrial sign business, which can be very lucrative...and can also just plain die on you. Sorry...but that is the raw truth. Either way, with a vinyl cutter, you either make a good profit or loose a small investment.

[Darren Null]

There's also vehicle graphics, 'novelty' signs and sets of stick on graphics with a vinyl cutter. Plus a billion things I haven't thought of, I expect.

[Mark Winlund]

Questions:
1. What is a reasonable expectation of having this machine pay for itself?
2. Is it reasonable to think I can get this thing paid for in 3 years knowing that I am a newbie (lots to learn) and working it part time??
3. What are the most profitable jobs I should pursue to get this machine paid for? (Craft shows, wedding planners, school fund raisers, gun stocks)



none, no, none of the above.

How to make a small fortune with a laser: First, start with a large fortune.....

Save your money. Hard times are just beginning.

Mark

[Darren Null]

To summarise then; a laser engraver is a very expensive machine that has a limited number of applications -almost all luxury goods- in a time of economic crisis.
Further: there is a reasonably steep and probably expensive (you ARE going to utterly kill some expensive stuff at some point) learning curve...and if you are one of those people who just can't get on with computer graphics you may never get it. You are almost certainly going to have to learn at least a jobbing knowledge of Coreldraw, which isn't renowned for it's friendliness (but much, much, much better than it used to be). You're probably going to have to learn PhotoPaint (comes with corel) or Photoshop (what the pros use- more popular therefore more tutorials and help...not necessarily easier) or another bitmap editor. And you're going to have to learn a lot about materials...what you can (loads of stuff); what you can't (anything with PVC- gives off chlorine gas to name but one); and the speed and power settings for your particular laser at that particular time (laser performance slowly drops off as gas escapes from the tube and varies anyway depending upon mow grubby your lenses and mirrors are at that second...even if they were clean when you pressed 'start'). Also about colour fills and finishes...an options list for each material.

But it's not all bad news. You're never stuck for xmas and birthday presents. And being a laser engraver sounds cool.

[Dee Gallo]

Dave,

Please remember that a laser is just a tool. It does not do anything without your input, knowledge and skill. You wouldn't buy an airplane, call yourself a pilot, wait for people to come to give you money and THEN try to figure out how to use it and where you can go with it.

In my own case, my laser paid for itself in a few months. But it was filling the place of several full time clones of me, who was doing engraving with hand tools. And had a full roster of paying customers lined up. Once I established my business, I was able to retire from my day job comfortably.

My advice is to figure out your market before you do anything else. Either that or plan on spending a long time making no money with your laser.

A laser is a fabulous toy, a valuable production asset and incredibly fun hobby or business tool. But it's just a tool. Buy the right tool for your own purposes.

cheers, dee

[Mike Null]

You have received many good answers but none as accurate as Dee's. The number one reason people fail to meet their objectives once they begin the lasering business is that they don't have a clue about marketing.

If you can't sell it you can't pay for anything.

[Mark Ross]

Also, don't even bother thinking, I can post stuff on Ebay. It is being done to death, and some of it, they offer free shipping! For example a while back, I saw one guy doing 12X12 granite photos with free shipping for $19.99 to $24.99. Now a single piece of granite is around 4-6 bucks, weighs about 6 pounds. He offered free shipping. So at 20 bucks on the low end, subtract 4-6 bucks for the tile, and say $7.95 for flat rate USPS shipping...this guy gave away his business and hurt all the other listings.

I checked and I don't see him listing anything anymore but it is a tough sell on Ebay. The second you get something popular, plenty of others will swoop in and undercut you. Believe me I have had it happen to me.

Also, if you have not done so, there are plenty of free trade magazines out there, I subscribe to several sign magazines that are delivered to me in digital form for free. It might give you some ideas.