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View Full Version : Thoughts about Trotec versus Epilog - please.



donald bugansky
09-26-2009, 9:03 PM
I'm ready to buy my first laser and I would be very appreciative if you could share your thoughts. I'm somewhat stuck between Trotec and Epilog.

Initially, it's for just a hobby, but long term, it could be a business.

Here's my initial findings...

1) Trotec really touts their "job control" software and it seems more "cad like" to me. They also tout that the speed of their units is faster than the competition. Their pricing is about 15% higher and the units seem to have a larger footprint (issue if space is at a premium). Not sure if the job control software/speed is that important unless you are a high volume business.

2) Epilog touts their "US Made" label and their larger user base/established US presence. Their "Dashboard" seems pretty powerful and would fill most needs.

3) They both seem to have similar/comparable models, Trotec Speedy 100 versus the Epilog Mini 24 as well as the Trotec Speedy 300 versus the Epilog Helix.

4) From what I can tell, their sales/support seems comparable.

I know this is somewhat of a Ford versus Chevy question but would appreciate any comments/experience (things I may be missing) as well as any items that would assist me in selecting a model/manufacturer.

I've looked for MTBF (mean time between failures) but can't seem to find anything relative to reliability factors between the 2 manufacturer.

Thanks in advance. Bugs

Randy Digby
09-26-2009, 9:41 PM
Well, since I'm a one laser owner, and that just since July, I can't offer any comparison info. I can tell you that my Speedy 100 has more than met my expectations. I retired from industrial manufacturing a couple of years ago and that background helped offset my minimal knowledge of lasers as we begin to select a machine. One basic rule was to only buy a unit I had seen in demo operation. I went to the NBM show in Charlotte a couple of years ago and watched several operate, but I wasn't in the laser purchasing mode at that time. I was able to have a Xenetech and Trotech demo locally. Another salesman was going to call back in a couple of weeks and have a demo set up in Marietta, close to us, but I never heard from him again.

We had planned on waiting until the first of next year and were going back to Charlotte this fall to finalize our decision. When our primary rotary machine bit the dust, we opted to go ahead and go laser. We purchased the Speedy 100 with price, speed, onboard assist air, ease of operation, and sales support being the primary selling points. We had an established engraving operation and wanted to go laser for time savings, equipment consolidation and new product development, and it has met all of those marks.

I can only speak for the Speedy 100 and I am very happy we chose the Trotec line.

David Fairfield
09-26-2009, 10:55 PM
It really is a Ford vs Chevy type question, only in the laser world it seems to be rare to find a neutral opinion from somebody who's actually operated both machines.

If you know what types of things and materials you'll be cutting, try to get samples to compare. Best if if you can get a rep to drive over to your place and give you a hands on demo. That way you can load your file and your materials and see for yourself.

High speed is good, but it really depends on other factors, as there are a lot of variables with speed/power/frequency vs your materials and requirements. I don't think you can go too far wrong either way. I love my Epilog and recommend it.

Dave

Anthony Scira
09-26-2009, 11:06 PM
The only thing I wish my Epilog had was pass through doors. There is always something that won't fit where pass through doors would have been slick.

Dan Hintz
09-27-2009, 7:24 AM
What is your final application? If it's high-volume raster work, the Trotec may prove itself financially appropriate due to the speed. If it's vector work, they're going to be essentially equivalent, with the Trotec costing more initially and taking up the larger footprint. Have you considered a ULS, as well?

Mike Null
09-27-2009, 8:06 AM
I have owned a ULS and now own a Trotec. I operated 2 Epilogs for a couple of years.

It isn't even close to being a Ford vs Chevy issue. A careful examination of the construction and features of the Trotec will quickly reveal why it costs more but is still a better value.

That is not to say that ULS and Epilog aren't perfectly good, quality machines. All three have excellent tech support.

The sizzling speed on the Speedy 300 is only relevant if you have the power to go with it.

Scott Shepherd
09-27-2009, 8:48 AM
It isn't even close to being a Ford vs Chevy issue. A careful examination of the construction and features of the Trotec will quickly reveal why it costs more but is still a better value.

I agree with Mike. It's more like Ford/Chevy versus Mercedes.

I have owned an Epilog and ULS, and one thing I will never have is another laser withOUT job control software. It has made my life so much easier and it's something that people that haven't used it don't understand the value of, for the most part. I love my job control software and our next laser will have it, whether it's another ULS or a Trotec. I can assure you, my job control software has saved me the difference in pricing you mention between brands.

David Fairfield
09-27-2009, 8:57 AM
I'd like to hear more about job control software. Since I don't know what I'm missing, I haven't been missing it... or maybe its overkill for my applications.

Dave

Scott Shepherd
09-27-2009, 9:50 AM
David, in brief, it gives you access to a number of jobs (on the ULS, it's 2,000 jobs max), at your finger tips. You can pull up any job you have run before and see every single detail about the job. Speed/power/PPI/Material thickness, air on/off, flow rate of the air, etc. So you have every single detail of every job you have run.

You can pull up a job from 2 years ago, see what settings worked on that and move on. So all those one off jobs you thought you'd never see again, are right there, settings and all, so the next time you get it, you don't have to start the process over of figuring it out. You just call up the old job, saves the settings, open the new job, load the settings and move on.

You can also permanently save jobs, so you don't have to go back into Corel and send the file again. Just open the job up, click the go button and it runs it. Great for repeat work.

It just makes running the laser easier. Sure, you can go into your driver and save every single setting and pull that, but it's not the same thing. You really need to see it working to see how much easier and more efficient it makes you. I'll never buy another machine without it. I suspect Epilog will have it out before too long, but that's pure speculation on my part. I've not heard anything from anyone, but it's so powerful a tool, I don't think they are ignoring it.

David Fairfield
09-27-2009, 10:09 AM
Ah I see, that's a very handy feature for production work! When I'm in the market for a new laser, I will be looking again at all the big manufactuers. Now that I have a few years experience, for me, the make or break issue will be cutting/engraving quality at high speed. Since I do a lot of sub-miniature work, tolerances are extremely close. I've noticed a definite speed limit on things like smooth vector curves because they show tremors at high speeds. But I'm talking about stuff you need a magnifying glass to see, and from what I hear, the other machines do that, too. Meanwhile I work around it, no prob, and exploit the strengths of the machinery to negate any weakness. But it would be cool to work at 100% speed all the time! :cool:

Dave

Dave Garcia
09-27-2009, 11:04 AM
"Bugs",

First off please be advised that both the ULS and the Epilog folks, depending on your locale, "review" this forum. So do not be surprised if you hear from either one of those fine companies before too much longer. Now having said that, if you need specifics from anyone on this forum, I'd suggest you go the PM route so you can speak candidly off line with users of the different lasers you have researched. Small point but something you might want to consider which will cut down on the numbers of "contacts" you will receive from these different manufacturers.

I've been on the "search/research" path for a desktop sized laser for the last three years. It is a MUST DO to see each and every machine you are even remotely thinking of purchasing actually demonstrated, preferably first at a local trade show and secondly, privately at a sales office. And then if you can somehow do it, side by side. You probably will not get a chance to do the side by side bit unless you just happen to get lucky, but you MUST do the individual demo's. Depending on what it is you are going to do with your laser, after seeing the demo's, one unit will pop out at you that meets and or exceeds your needs and finances.

Bottom line is that, other than the Chinese lasers that you can find on eBay for over half the price of either the Epilog and or the TroTec, any laser that is sold directly here in the US will be a good machine. The keys are what you perceive to be the quality of the machine, the software needed to run the laser, and the before, during and after sale customer service. The later point is a qualitative thing that only you can decide. The top three laser companies, Epilog, ULS and TroTec (I think that's right) all have outstanding customer service and technical support. And some of that, like training etc, are more locally oriented with the individual retail sales companies in your area.

By the way, although there are folks on this forum who speak highly of their Chinese laser, I personally would not send you in that direction for some of the reasons you stated about the unit you wanted to buy. And secondly most of the Chinese lasers have older technology, like water cooling etc. Not all, but most.

Now, Epilog vs TroTec. Hopefully the individuals on this forum who have used both, and there are many, will chime in and help you out with this more than I can. There are also many knowledgeable users of only one of these units that will tell you that their laser is the best. I've chosen to seek out those that have used both for a better comparison, and have done that using the PM capability of this forum. That having been said, although Epilog sells itself as being an all American company, and TroTec is in fact a European based company, each laser unit uses the Synhad(?) laser tube made in Seattle, WA. And that to me is the most important part of the laser. Everything else is just "support", and something you'll have to decide for yourself which is better aka apples or oranges. The production folks on this forum will tell you that the individual drive motors, table size, pass through doors, production software etc, etc are just as important. That's mainly because that's what they do with their laser. Those of us who were hobbyists first and then got into production type work later will tell you that quality, foot print, and ease of use for the dollars spent were more important. But just about everyone will tell you, my opinion anyway, that the laser tube is by far and away the most important item on the laser. For my money where the laser tube was manufactured wins out over where the rest of the "stuff" is made and or put together. Epilog and TroTec's tubes are made here in the US, so you will get excellent and timely support for both. Please note that I didn't say how much that support would cost. Don't be shocked to find out that should your laser tube need service, repair and or replacement, that the cost to do so will be in the $0000.00 price range.

Bottom line in comparing the two companies, Epilog to TroTec, in my opinion is the same as comparing Microsoft and the PC, to Apple and the Mac. Or as someone above said Chevy/Ford vs Mercades. But that again is a qualitative judgment you have to make based on actually seeing and having a hands on demo of each machine. For a beginner, like I was, both units are outstanding. You can't go wrong with either. It will boil down to what it is you want to do with the machine, how you use it once you get it, and what your perception of quality is.

By the way, are you a PC or a Mac user?

If you care to, please send me a PM and I'll go into this in more detail as to how all of this fit in with my up coming planned purchase or a desktop sized laser engraver.

Dave Garcia :)
The Wood Block, Ltd

Martin Boekers
09-27-2009, 11:54 AM
Being an Epilog shop, I haven't worked with job control software.

A few questions;

Is the info saved on the laser or on the computer?

Can it be backed up?

Is it actually run from the laser or the computer?
If from the laser is there a preview screen to show the job graphic in
case you transposed a job number?

How are search perameters set up to make it easy to find that one-of-a-kind
job you did 2 years ago?


Since I don't have software for this like everyone else I have my system to repeat jobs.

on each job I add a small grid outside live area that has which laser, speed, power, freq & air assist off/on. This is quick and easy for those without the software.

Also much of my business is repeat awards. Short and simple Filing order
Organization, Unit, under unit folder I have the year it was created folder, then a seperate folders for Awards, going away and special projects.

This provides me with quick access for past work.

Since the awards are repeated Monthly, quarterly & annually. I have an info file that I save with that info. That includes info for Organization, unit, POC info Vendor and product info and a photo of a finished piece.

Individual's work is saved under the year folder then the month and then the last name.

This doesn't take as long as it seems and helps immensly!
That way It is easily searchable if I cannot work on the job and a co-worker does. They have all the info right in front of them if the have to order the product they know what it is and where to get it from our cost and our retail price on it, as well as photo documentation on how the finished awards look.

Layouts of finished products are saved in these folders.

When I took over this shop the filing system was in disarray. This has really helped!.

I'm all for making my job easier and when I'm up for a new laser much of this will be taken into consideration.


Marty

Scott Shepherd
09-27-2009, 4:23 PM
Being an Epilog shop, I haven't worked with job control software.

A few questions;

Is the info saved on the laser or on the computer?

Computer.


Can it be backed up?

Yes.


Is it actually run from the laser or the computer?

Computer


If from the laser is there a preview screen to show the job graphic in case you transposed a job number?

Yes.


How are search perameters set up to make it easy to find that one-of-a-kind job you did 2 years ago?

Not sure how Trotec does it, and I've not searched extensively, I usually just scroll to the job in a file type menu.

It also tells you all the details about the job, such as the run time. So you can go back 6 months ago to a job you ran and see how long it took in actual run time.

Bob Savage
09-27-2009, 5:07 PM
Being an Epilog shop, I haven't worked with job control software.

A few questions;


Marty,

There's a pretty good rundown of the feature at http://www.trotec.net/020+Products/_en-US/_310+JobControl.htm

John J Wang
09-27-2009, 5:14 PM
We have an older ULS M300 and Like Mike has mentioned earlier, depending what you are cutting, you need power to go with speed. I saw the Trotec at the AWFS show back in July and was very impressed by its speed, but if I remember correctly it was a fairly high wattage machine.

The M300 is slow by today's standard but since we only have a 35Watt laser we seldom reach 100% speed while engraving. The only downside to the M300 is that is has been too reliable so we don't have an excuse to upgrade or have enough engraving jobs to justify a second machine.

People say comparing Epilog/ULS to a Trotec is like compaing Chevy/Ford to a Mercedes. They could be right, our ULS is of mostly sheetmetal and extruded aluminum construction but really does it matter? Most of us are buying industrial machines not status symbols. If the machine meets your specification I think you can't go wrong with either a Epilog or ULS.

Technology is constantly changing and today's market/technology leader may not be the leader a couple years from now so for a first machine I think it may not be a bad idea to go with either Epilog or ULS if they meet your specification and save the 15% premium for your next/second machine.

I will also stay away from the Chinese machines. Other than safety and customer service concerns every dollar you spend on a product made in a democratic country may be worth 10x more in the not too distant future.

donald bugansky
09-27-2009, 6:33 PM
Thanks to all of you for your insights and perspectives. I will use the information wisely!

Thanks again. - Bugs

Scott Shepherd
09-28-2009, 7:48 AM
Most of us are buying industrial machines not status symbols.

I wouldn't consider buying a machine that is better built, faster, with more features a status symbol, I'd consider it a competitive advantage over my competition.

John J Wang
09-28-2009, 9:57 PM
I wouldn't consider buying a machine that is better built, faster, with more features a status symbol, I'd consider it a competitive advantage over my competition.

My apologies. It was in reference to the Ford/Chevy/Mercedes comparison. Going by that analogy, laser engravers are work trucks not luxury sedans. More money may not necessarily mean a better machine, and technology related industrial tools usually do not have collector value. Machine A may have all the bell and whistle, but if all I need is machine B for the next few years it may be better to buy machine B that fulfill my needs and save the money for the next machine that may nor may not be machine A or B or C or. . . .

donald bugansky
09-29-2009, 4:45 PM
Dave, PM waiting for you in your mailbox.

Thx

donald bugansky
10-07-2009, 3:07 PM
Thanks to all of you for your input as I have purchased a Trotec 75W system.

Several issues/circumstances led to the Trotec purchase and is now a great addition to my work shop.

I must say that the folks from Epilog and Trotec were extremely helpful, professional and both are first class organizations.

Thanks again for your assistance.

Bugs

Michael Kowalczyk
10-08-2009, 6:52 PM
Hey Donald,
Welcome to the Creek and welcome to the ever growing Trotec user's group.:D

What specifically made you choose Trotec over the other Lasers?

75 watts Good choice.

Make sure you enter in the FREE STUFF drawing (if you haven't already). 3mm Baltic Birch cuts nice on my 60 watt but I would be curious as to what settings you end up using and how long it takes.

donald bugansky
10-08-2009, 9:00 PM
Mike,

It was a tough decision as both machines were very close in my ratings and really within 5% pricing wise.

If I take all the personal stuff out of it (sales rep interaction and such) the Trotec just seemed to be a better built machine (if you just take a look at the rotary tool you'll know what I mean - it alone is built like a tank) but it was the job control software that made the deciding factor. I'm a engineer with AT&T and just love that kind of stuff (software control).

I was looking at the Epilog Helix 75w and came within hours of buying one as one of the strongest points was the number of folks that use Epilog as well as the local sales rep Steve really knew his stuff. With such a large user base it would be easy to solve problems and share ideas/settings and such.

Not as many folks using the Trotec but then being a Mac user, I'm used to being outside of the masses.

I hope it brings me years of enjoyment. I took some time looking at all the systems out there. My grandmother had a phrase "buy right or buy twice".

In the end, I'm sure I would have been happy with either machine.

Regards,

Mike Null
10-09-2009, 7:56 AM
Oh do I wish I had that extra 30 watts. My 45 is a great machine but it would fly with 75 watts.

I hope you are as pleased as I have been with the Trotec.

Chip Peterson
10-09-2009, 9:58 AM
You will be happy with your decision.

Where are you located Donald?

donald bugansky
10-09-2009, 2:07 PM
Located in Ashtabula - Ohio, about 50 miles east of Cleveland and right on Lake Erie.

Jim Unsworth
11-13-2009, 12:43 PM
I'm ready to buy my first laser and I would be very appreciative if you could share your thoughts. I'm somewhat stuck between Trotec and Epilog.

Initially, it's for just a hobby, but long term, it could be a business.

Here's my initial findings...

1) Trotec really touts their "job control" software and it seems more "cad like" to me. They also tout that the speed of their units is faster than the competition. Their pricing is about 15% higher and the units seem to have a larger footprint (issue if space is at a premium). Not sure if the job control software/speed is that important unless you are a high volume business.

2) Epilog touts their "US Made" label and their larger user base/established US presence. Their "Dashboard" seems pretty powerful and would fill most needs.

3) They both seem to have similar/comparable models, Trotec Speedy 100 versus the Epilog Mini 24 as well as the Trotec Speedy 300 versus the Epilog Helix.

4) From what I can tell, their sales/support seems comparable.

I know this is somewhat of a Ford versus Chevy question but would appreciate any comments/experience (things I may be missing) as well as any items that would assist me in selecting a model/manufacturer.

I've looked for MTBF (mean time between failures) but can't seem to find anything relative to reliability factors between the 2 manufacturer.

Thanks in advance. Bugs

Hi,

I was a Trotec Distributor for over 7 years in Canada and can tell you that it pays to spend a little more for the speed and quality of this Austrian - not US made unit. All the components are simply installed in the event of repair although you will find that the only parts that might need replacing might be a belt but that is rare. Tubes will last years giving the proper room temperature and believe it or not, hours of use. If you don't use it ... you will lose it as they say. The gaskets on a laser not used frequently will tend to leak more than one that is in service and considering the investment involved you better make sure that it is. If your tube starts to lose its power Synrad will take yours and replace it with a recharged one. Last time I checked the bill was around $1,200 to $1,500 out of warranty. The Epilog is the closest competitor and a good machine but in the long haul, if you expect to get into any production the Speedy is much faster ... 140 inches per second and accurate at that speed. Their job control is simple to use once you get the hang of it. Just create in Cdraw and print to the Job Control which will give you a visual of the what you will get. If you have any other questions or want to purchase the rotary give me a call at 905 745 6663 or email me videoprom@cogeco.ca

Jim Unsworth
11-13-2009, 12:45 PM
I wouldn't consider buying a machine that is better built, faster, with more features a status symbol, I'd consider it a competitive advantage over my competition.

You bet. You get what you pay for. Buy a Trotec.

Dan Hintz
11-13-2009, 1:16 PM
The Epilog is the closest competitor and a good machine but in the long haul, if you expect to get into any production the Speedy is much faster ... 140 inches per second and accurate at that speed.
Jim,

Always happy to have former/current support guys from all of the manufacturers here on the forums. That said, I take issue with such a blanket statement as it depends heavily upon the end users tasks. As I mentioned in my first post for this thread, while the Trotec's high speed is very useful in rastering, if the end-product is mostly vectoring, the high speed is irrelevant. If the user is cutting plexiglass all day long at 5-10 ips, a machine with equivalent vector speeds (e.g., Epilog, ULS) would be just as capable but at a lower price point.

Mike Null
11-13-2009, 1:42 PM
Dan

Trotec posts their vector speed in job control. I haven't been able to find that on any other machine. (my machine is posted at 31.5 inches per second maximum)


I would not assume vector speed is the same on various machines? I believe it would depend on the job settings, motors, and optics, power being equal.

Chip Peterson
11-13-2009, 2:05 PM
I never noticed that feature. I have to go look for that! Thanks Mike

Dan Hintz
11-13-2009, 2:15 PM
My point was more towards the fact that you're comparing apples to oranges, but claiming a great apple pie in the end. Trotec makes a mean machine when it comes to raw speed for rastering at nearly double the rate of other mainstream machines on the market. However, it's too easy to fool people into thinking that high rate of speed transfers to all processing, including vectoring.

As anyone who has ever tried to vector more than a sheet of paper knows, your top speed is usually limited by laser power (barring issues with mechanical stability). I know there has been a lot of discussion here of machines not being able to reach their top speeds during vectoring due to poor carriage control (resulting in wiggly lines, changes in cut depth around tight curves, etc.). Maybe it's my own paranoia, but I'm wary when I hear bold claims coming people associated with a particular machine/company.

I suppose my main question is this: Is Trotec able to beat Epilog and ULS machines in vector mode while still retaining a quality cut (obviously same laser power, same substrate, etc.), assuming the laser power is the limiting factor for a particular substrate? Raw speed in any mode means nothing if the quality is lost, as many have unfortunately seen when trying to reach the speeds promised by their respective reps. I don't care what's advertised (though I wish more companies would list their specs), I care about what happens in reality.