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View Full Version : How much power to buy?



donald bugansky
09-26-2009, 7:29 PM
I'm new to the forum and ready to purchase my first laser engraver. I'm not trying to run any type of business at the moment, just think they are very cool and want to play. I've got a workshop and I think a laser would be a great addition. I'm 51 and will retire in 10 years so it could turn into a business.

I've narrowed it down to 2 manufacturers', Trotec 100 or 300 (like the job control) or Epilog Mini24 or Helix (large user base and US made).

The downside is that I'm very analytical and tend to cover every scenario before I buy. My grandmother always told me "buy right or buy twice".

I'm struggling with how much power to buy, 45 watt, 60 watt or 75 watt. I know someone will say "what do you want to do with your new laser" and my answer is ," I don't know for sure".

I'm trying to consider total cost of ownership and I'm willing to pay more for the additional power if it is required. I have a tendency to buy more than I need and I don't want to do it here.

So based on TCO, I assume it costs more to "recharge" a larger laser or are there break points like below 45 or between 50 - 75watt, same price to recharge.

Any thoughts relative to "how much power to buy" based on your experience would be greatly appreciated. Once I narrow down the "power" then I can move on to selecting the manufacturer/model.

Thanks, Bugs

Anthony Scira
09-26-2009, 7:42 PM
Buy as much power as you can afford. Buy the biggest table you can get. I just ran into a project that required a bigger table than my 24x18.

The power lets you cut thicker material or cut thinner material faster.

So all in all its "how much ya got ?"
:D

Bob Savage
09-26-2009, 7:44 PM
Buy as much power as you can afford. Buy the biggest table you can get. I just ran into a project that required a bigger table than my 24x18.

The power lets you cut thicker material or cut thinner material faster.

So all in all its "how much ya got ?"
:D

Funny, but it does seem that the "buy more than you need" might be the right way to go for Bugs, this time around.

Darren Null
09-26-2009, 8:00 PM
How much power? All you can reasonably afford. More power doesn't necessarily give you much more in the way of options (the acrylic and wood you can cut is a little thicker, but that's about it). The higher power will -as a rule of thumb- allow you to do the same things but in less time.

That applies if you even vaguely intend a business application; and goes double if you don't know exactly what you intend doing with it. Time is money, and if you can do more in less time that's going to pay dividends.

The initial costs of the higher power is significant; and the regassing cost is more expensive (but not so significant). The time before a regassing is needed is more-or-less the same whatever the power. So with the higher power you get more done over the operational lifetime of the laser.

David Fairfield
09-26-2009, 11:02 PM
I agree, get the maximum you can afford. However, I've been able to do a hell of a lot with 35 watts. Since you aren't in a commercial production mode yet, more learning and experimenting, the 45 watt seems like plenty of power to me.

Joe Pelonio
09-26-2009, 11:56 PM
I have been at it 6 years now with a 12x24 table and 45 watts. So far there have been only two jobs that required a larger table, and only one that required more power that I couldn't handle with two passes. I do have an
associate with a larger more powerful machine that I was able to use for those. If you will not be depending on it for business until 10 years from now, I'd start of slow because by then you'll want to upgrade anyway. I bet the technology has advanced a lot and prices fall in 10 years.

David Takes
09-27-2009, 1:29 AM
My grandmother always told me "buy right or buy twice".

With this statement, I'm curious why Universal isn't in the mix. This is not a slam against Trotec or Epilog, but just curious why Universal has been eliminated from your consideration.

Keith Outten
09-27-2009, 6:43 AM
If you ever think that you might move toward commercial work and if you are considering jobs that are repetitious you should give serious consideration to a large power supply.

For instance:

It takes me 25 minutes average to raster engrave ADA door signs with my personal 35 watt laser, the same sign takes about ten minutes with the 60 watt laser at CNU. This type of work is generally high volume, a commercial building can average between 150 to 600 door signs. The time difference makes the cost of the larger power supply insignificant if you engrave these kinds of projects.

In my shop I am in the process of converting my ADA sign laser engraving work to a rotary machine that should cut the time to about 3 minutes per sign and it will drill the Braille holes which is more accurate than laser engraving them. The cost of a rotary engraver can be less than 20% of a new laser with a large power supply. A rotary engraver is not a laser, the two machines are really for different purposes but there is some overlap in the types of jobs they can be used for.

Sometimes it is more cost effective to plan on purchasing two (lesser priced) machines to accomplish certain kinds of jobs. Sorry if this adds another option you need to consider and makes your decision more difficult but I wish someone had shared this with me a long time ago when I was starting out.
.

Bob Savage
09-27-2009, 11:54 AM
If you ever think that you might move toward commercial work and if you are considering jobs that are repetitious you should give serious consideration to a large power supply.

For instance:

It takes me 25 minutes average to raster engrave ADA door signs with my personal 35 watt laser, the same sign takes about ten minutes with the 60 watt laser at CNU. This type of work is generally high volume, a commercial building can average between 150 to 600 door signs. The time difference makes the cost of the larger power supply insignificant if you engrave these kinds of projects.

In my shop I am in the process of converting my ADA sign laser engraving work to a rotary machine that should cut the time to about 3 minutes per sign and it will drill the Braille holes which is more accurate than laser engraving them. The cost of a rotary engraver can be less than 20% of a new laser with a large power supply. A rotary engraver is not a laser, the two machines are really for different purposes but there is some overlap in the types of jobs they can be used for.

Sometimes it is more cost effective to plan on purchasing two (lesser priced) machines to accomplish certain kinds of jobs. Sorry if this adds another option you need to consider and makes your decision more difficult but I wish someone had shared this with me a long time ago when I was starting out.
.

Keith,

My plan is to get into laser engraving as a hobby, eventually adding a CNC router and learning CNC programming using something such as GibbsCAM (I did a "soft" comparative analysis of a number of packages for my father a few years ago, and liked what I saw with Gibbs). My thought is that the learnign curve for the laser is much smaller than the CNC, and there are a wider variety of projects that can be done with the laser as well.

From the perspective of hobby to small side jobs to small business, what do you think of this approach?

As a side note, related to another active thread on this forum, as a hobby, ROI is not an issue at this point. I expect that I will not make the money for the equipment back within any reasonable amount of time, rendering ROI moot.

Keith Outten
09-27-2009, 12:14 PM
Bob,

Donald is working towards a business venture down the road, his needs and yours as a hobby engraver might not be as far apart as your think. You can progress from hobby to sideliner to a major business venture faster then you might realize :) It really depends on what you decide to produce, if it is good stuff sales can skyrocket as the world beats a path to your door. I was just getting by until I started making some small signs for a couple of people, then the roof blew off.

CNC programing is a thing of the past. New software available today has made CNC work more like engraving, even 3D work is within the grasp of someone like me since Vectric brought Aspire to the masses. I wouldn't worry so much about learning to program CNC these days, it takes only a few hours to get started running your first job and thats a long way from the way it used to be just a few years ago.

From a hobby point of view both a laser engraver and a CNC machine are both nothing but fun to run. You will never be bored or lack a challenge. Both machines are very versitile and combined their capability is nothing short of amazing.

Purchasing a laser engraver isn't much different than a table saw in some respects, everyone here will tell you it is much cheaper to buy the best machine right out of the gate, if you can, rather than go through several cycles of trading upward.

There are a lot of people here who will tell you that you shouldn't ever consider a laser engraver to be a printer. That is sales propaganda, nothing could be farther from the truth. There are so many things to learn and the lessons are compounded by the huge number of materials that are available. I could put together a pretty convincing argument that you could probably start producing simple 2D CNC jobs faster then you might be able to produce certain kinds of jobs with a laser engraver. The people here that post pictures of some amazing laser engraved projects are very talented and have a lot of experience, the average laser head is a long way from reproducing work at that level.
.

Larry Bratton
09-27-2009, 12:23 PM
An Epilog Helix (size) with 75 watts (or more) would be a powerful combination. I run an Epilog Ext 36 with 40 watts. I make good use of the big table, but if I had it to do again, I would go with a bit smaller table and put the money toward more power. More power means more speed also. Laser work is slow work to me, compared to CNC router work. When the word "Laser" is used, somehow that conjuers up thoughts of a lighting flash and a zap and your done..wrong! Running raster engraved items with high dpi can be painfully slow and your producing product for money, this comes home pretty quick.

Bob Savage
09-27-2009, 12:28 PM
Bob,

Donald is working towards a business venture down the road, his needs and yours as a hobby engraver might not be as far apart as your think.

CNC programing is a thing of the past. New software available today has made CNC work more like engraving, even 3D work is within the grasp of someone like me since Vectric brought Aspire to the masses. I wouldn't worry so much about learning to program CNC these days, it takes only a few hours to get started running your first job and thats a long way from the way it used to be just a few years ago.

From a hobby point of view both a laser engraver and a CNC machine are both nothing but fun to run. You will never be bored or lack a challenge. Both machines are very versitile and combined their capability is nothing short of amazing.

Purchasing a laser engraver isn't much different than a table saw in some respects, everyone here will tell you it is much cheaper to buy the best machine right out of the gate, if you can, rather than go through several cycles of trading upward.

There are a lot of people here who will tell you that you shouldn't ever consider a laser engraver to be a printer. Nothing could be farther from the truth. There are so many things to learn and the lessons are compounded by the huge number of materials that are available. I could put together a pretty convincing argument that you could probably start producing simple 2D CNC jobs faster then you might be able to produce certain kinds of jobs with a laser engraver. The people here that post pictures of some amazing laser engraved projects are very talented and have a lot of experience, the average laser head is a long way from reproducing work at that level.
.

Well, thanks for complicating things, Keith! :)

I believe I misspoke with the "CNC Programming," I was indeed referrign to the graphics based CAD/CAM type methods, not programming in a text editor like my uncle still does it.

You're right about Donald and my goals not being that far apart. I'm approaching this in a fairly flippant manner, but really, I'm thinking a 5-7 year plan to actually turn it into a business.

One thing the laser offers me right out the gate is the ability to etch a number of items that are required in the musical instrument industry. I have a decent number of contacts in that field, and am planning on targeting that as an initial side-job opportunity.

That said, and this is yet another broad, general question, but would you mind listing some of the CNC routers you were alluding to above?

Thanks a bunch for the input, this is good stuff.

Martin Boekers
09-27-2009, 2:25 PM
Larry, I agree with you about table size, I too have a EXT Legend 36.
It's rare that I use the table size.

That being said... I am not actively searching for that work.
I'm sure it's out there and if you wanted to market towards that. You may pick up more work due to the fact most shops may have smaller beds and can't handle the larger work.

If this is your first laser, smaller bed more power and as the business develops you can upsize to a larger bed laser and have the smaller as a back up or to run while the large one takes hours to burn the large project.

How quick are CNC machines compared to lasers?

I haven't made the jump to get a CNC machine yet, It just seems like at the shows Iv'e been to even running small projects seem to take hours.
3D many hours, granted these have been smaller table top machines and maybe the commercial grade ones are quicker.

What's a run time on say an average job on a 16x20inch board?


Thanks!


Marty

Rodne Gold
09-27-2009, 2:39 PM
You will do lot better with 2 x smaller 30w machines than 1 x large 60w.
Dont spend a fortune chasing oversize jobs and those that need the firepower you dont have...
Spend on marketing and promotion at first - get another machine if things hot up -- and then go for power and size if you really feel you need it..
I would aim for max 15k for your first hobby machine ..inclusive of all accesories...or dip your toe in with an 80 or 100w glass tubed mainland chinese machine for a LOT less

donald bugansky
09-27-2009, 6:34 PM
Thanks to all of you for your insights and perspectives. I will use the information wisely!

Thanks again. - Bugs

Larry Bratton
09-27-2009, 7:17 PM
Larry, I agree with you about table size, I too have a EXT Legend 36.
It's rare that I use the table size.

That being said... I am not actively searching for that work.
I'm sure it's out there and if you wanted to market towards that. You may pick up more work due to the fact most shops may have smaller beds and can't handle the larger work.

If this is your first laser, smaller bed more power and as the business develops you can upsize to a larger bed laser and have the smaller as a back up or to run while the large one takes hours to burn the large project.

How quick are CNC machines compared to lasers?

I haven't made the jump to get a CNC machine yet, It just seems like at the shows Iv'e been to even running small projects seem to take hours.
3D many hours, granted these have been smaller table top machines and maybe the commercial grade ones are quicker.

What's a run time on say an average job on a 16x20inch board?


Thanks!


Marty
Martin:
If your talking about doing 3d, I'm sure that is time consuming. That's why most ppl say their is no money in it. Same with a laser.
As far as time on an "average" job that has too many variables to give a good answer. But, as an example, I ran a 36" x 96" sign on HDU last week. This sign had 1/4" deep fill removed from around the text to leave it above the surface. The router time was less than 2 hours(and I probably could have beat that had I pushed it) including the cut out for the piece through 1-1/2" thick material. If it were even possible to do that with a laser, think of how long it would take..quite a bit longer for sure. CNC's are different animals but can turn out huge volumes of product. I love the laser, but the same money invested in a CNC will give a lot higher ROI.

Martin Boekers
09-27-2009, 9:18 PM
Thanks Larry,

I know There can be many variables just like with a laser, but now I have a rough idea as far as far as basic signage goes.

This last year I have been pressing to get a smaller CNC machine for my shop on base, But it's all about justifying funding. The more I know about these machines the better proposal I can put forth.

Thanks for your input!

Marty

Bob Savage
09-28-2009, 12:28 AM
Keith, nevermind on the question of machines, I did some searching... the Shop Bot stuff looks very nice. I've been asked if I was interested in building guitar amplifier cabinets in the past, and this looks like it would make the cutting a snap. Hmmm...

Rodne Gold
09-28-2009, 2:40 AM
Lasers and CNC machines like the overhead routing tables cant really be compared. They compliment each other big time however. I think , however , the laser is more flexible in terms of marking and for cutting what it can...
3d work on either is , to be blunt , both a pain and not really a big income producer unless you specialise in it....
IMHO the learning curve re the CNC macine is a lot higher than the laser and the bigest bugbear , even with a vacuum table , is holddown and part fixturing.
I think buying a full on large format , say 8 x 4 routering table with a decent spindle , decent software , 2 1/2 axis and possible a tool changer is a LOT more expensive than a small laser and I doubt you can generate income as quickly from it.
Both are nice toys tho ..

I would make a suggestion re CnC machines , I would rather get a small one that does very good duty as a rotary engraver - instead of a massive 7 hp perske spindle type jobby, as a "starter" machine.
In general , the higher the barrier to entry , the more likely you will get work and the less likely it is for your customers to go in house.
I have 3 vinyl cutters ...I do almost NO vinyl cutting work (as all of em are actually print and cut machines) cos every tom dick and harry around here has bought a vinyl cutter and is doing work from their garage at non competitive prices ..the trend anyway , thes days is to print and cut , not merely to cut...

Bob Savage
09-28-2009, 10:31 AM
Thanks for the input, Rodne. My plan is still to get the laser first, but having now looked at the cost of a 4'x4' or 8'x4' router has me interested, due to some of the additional possibilities in the musical instrument field that could arise from it. Of course, being able to cut large signs could be another interesting opportunity.

In any event, Laser first...

Thanks for the input!

Mark Ross
09-28-2009, 11:03 AM
We have an Epilog 36EXT and 45 watts and we cut all day for at least 8 hours, 5-6 days a week. We long for the day we can do a 4 foot by 8 foot sheet. Either as a table or being able to move the material along as we cut.

We cut acrylic for the most part and 45 watts zooms along quite nicely when you are only doing 1/8 inch.

Keith Outten
09-28-2009, 12:31 PM
Well, thanks for complicating things, Keith! :)

That said, and this is yet another broad, general question, but would you mind listing some of the CNC routers you were alluding to above?



Bob,

My CNC experience is limited to ShopBot PRT Alpha models but there are some Camaster owners here that seem really satisfied with their machines. I have heard the they have a new model with a small footprint.

Like buying laser engravers you face similar decisions that must be made when you start shopping for CNC routers. Table size, spindle or router motor, etc. ShopBot has several models in various sizes that offer a lot of bang for the buck. I had a conversation with Ted Hall a couple of weeks ago concerning a new tabletop ShopBot. He is trying to put together the specs for the new machine and looking for feedback but this one will be awhile before he has one ready for anyone to start testing.

Many of the rotary engraver manufacturers have small footprint routers and they are a good place to start looking. The major difference between a rotary engraver and the small CNC routers many sell is accuracy, rotary engravers are often accurate to within +- 0.0005".
.

Bob Savage
09-28-2009, 2:03 PM
Hi Keith,


Bob,

Like buying laser engravers you face similar decisions that must be made when you start shopping for CNC routers. Table size, spindle or router motor, etc. ShopBot has several models in various sizes that offer a lot of bang for the buck. I had a conversation with Ted Hall a couple of weeks ago concerning a new tabletop ShopBot. He is trying to put together the specs for the new machine and looking for feedback but this one will be awhile before he has one ready for anyone to start testing.

I could get away with the 48"x48" for doing up to what's called a "4x12" (four 12" speakers) cabinet, though I noticed that the 96"x48" is only marginally more money, which does the old "why not" thing on me. If I were to find some sign business, it could allow for much bigger signs to be cut.



The major difference between a rotary engraver and the small CNC routers many sell is accuracy, rotary engravers are often accurate to within +- 0.0005".
.

Whoah!!! That's tight. Not sure I need that. :)

Brian Robison
09-28-2009, 5:00 PM
You want a nice tight sound don't you?;)

Bob Savage
09-28-2009, 6:47 PM
You want a nice tight sound don't you?;)

I do! How did you guess that? :D

Rodne Gold
09-29-2009, 1:06 AM
We have a Tekcel large format , we thought it would be a blindingly fast machine for fine detail engraving , its a LOT slower than our smaller less robust machines , the motion system and inertia of the spindle head means you have to slow it down considerably to get smooth output...
Its not just about resolution..
It does however rip thru brass etc like butter - we can cut many hundreds of shaped badge backs in an hour