planes to replace my router

[Jon Crowley]

I know they exist... why can't I find them? :confused: I'm looking for plane/neanderthal replacements for:
roundovers
dados
rail/stile (probably use a rabbet/dado?)
ogee
etc, etc..

Other than looking for ancient used ones on ebay, are there other reasonably priced options? Basically, I can't even find a source let alone start comparing prices. Are they that uncommon/unused?

Bonus question: How would you sharpen something like a profile plane sharpened to be a roundover? :D

[Sean Hughto]

roundovers/rail and stile/ogee - if you want edge treatments in shapes other than chamfers, you pretty much can use a combination plane like Stanley's 45 and 55, or wooden molding planes. A beading tool - Stanley 66 (LN and LV make them too) will also work for many profiles including roundovers. Oh, and some specialized spokeshaves exit too. If you get good and don't care about machine precision, a regular spokeshave, drawknife or plane can get you pretty close to any size roundover you like - same with rasps and files.

http://jonzimmersantiquetools.com/features/55.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

I know they exist... why can't I find them? :confused: I'm looking for plane/neanderthal replacements for:
roundovers
dados
rail/stile (probably use a rabbet/dado?)
ogee
etc, etc..

Other than looking for ancient used ones on ebay, are there other reasonably priced options? Basically, I can't even find a source let alone start comparing prices. Are they that uncommon/unused?

Bonus question: How would you sharpen something like a profile plane sharpened to be a roundover? :D


The only new new molding planes being made to my knowledge are from Bridge City Tools dot com. They come with changeable blades and soles. Its called a mini-multi plane.

There are a few other ways one can travel this road. Sean mentioned the Stanley 55. One of these with a set of the standard blades will cost less than what Bridge City offers. It will be more difficult to use than the Bridge City plane.

Then the older way of doing it with wooden molding planes. One can start out simply with some hollows and rounds and pick up some other shapes as time passes. You would also want a good rabbet plane.

The great thing is shapes can be created that are not practical or in some cases not even possible with a router.

For the bonus round, Bridge City makes forms for sharpening.

For the others, many suggest just lapping the back side. I uses slip stones and also make shaped pieces with abrasive on them. Kind of a scary sharp system for stuff that isn't straight.

jim

[Phillip Pattee]

I wholly agree with the info from Sean Hughto and Jim Koepke so won't repeat it.

I recommend you get and view the Jim Kingshott DVD "Special Planes" which will answer most of your questions. There are plenty of vintage molding planes. You can sharpen them with various shaped slip stones of the same sort wood carvers use.

Some new alternatives that haven't already been mentioned are the Mujingfang hollows and rounds available at Lee Valley and Japan Woodworker. http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=64009&cat=1,41182 and http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?s=JapanWoodworker&dept_id=13602

Also Clark and Williams has hollow and rounds and will make any custom plane you desire. http://planemaker.com/

If you are really adventuresome you can make you own planes and purchase irons for them (which you also shape) from Lie-Nielsen. http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?cat=548

Have fun!:)

[Eric Brown]

Clifton makes a new multiplane. One source is Tools for Working Wood
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-MULTIPLANE.XX&Category_Code=CCL

Don't know how good it is but they take good care of their customers so if you didn't like it they would allow you to return it.


St James Bay Tool Company also has a multiplane listed in their catalog (not on website). The tools I have gotten from them are nice, but required some tuning up.
http://www.stjamesbaytoolco.com/


One thing to keep in mind though is that there are some things done by a powered router that are easier to duplicate with tools other than handplanes. A sliding dovetail can be cut with saw and chisels for instance.

Eric

[Billy Chambless]

I recommend you get and view the Jim Kingshott DVD "Special Planes" which will answer most of your questions.


Having just gotten my copy of that DVD this week, I'll second that recommendation. It's a good general introduction to the various types of planes. The bad part is he got me thinking I want a pair of side rabbets. ;)

[David Keller NC]

I know they exist... why can't I find them? :confused: I'm looking for plane/neanderthal replacements for:
roundovers
dados
rail/stile (probably use a rabbet/dado?)
ogee
etc, etc..

Other than looking for ancient used ones on ebay, are there other reasonably priced options? Basically, I can't even find a source let alone start comparing prices. Are they that uncommon/unused?

Bonus question: How would you sharpen something like a profile plane sharpened to be a roundover? :D

From the standpoint of wooden molding planes to make complex profiles like ogees, coves, ovolos, astragals, etc... there are a few modern makers. The most well know is Clark and Williams, but Todd Herli makes them, as well as Philly Planes (UK) and D.L. Barret and Sons (Canada). Note that a lot of labor goes into making these, so they are priced accordingly.

If you don't want to take a chance on getting an unusable wooden molding plane from e-bay, check out Lee Richmond's site: www.thebestthings.com (http://www.thebestthings.com). He is scrupulous in describing these planes, so you will know whether you're buying a collector's item, a good user, or a potential good user that will need some work. He's the largest wooden plane dealer in the world, and really knows his stuff.

This is, by the way, perhaps the most economical way to build a good sized collection of various wooden molding plane profiles. Typically, a 19th century British wooden molding profile in an "ordinary" profile such as an ogee, ovolo, cove, etc... can be had for about $50. One can sometimes luck into these considerably cheaper at flea markets, but beware - there are subtle appearance differences between a plane that will be a superb user in the shop, and one that's completely unusable and is better left for Cracker Barrel decorations.

This is the reason to purchase these sorts of planes from soneone that knows their stuff. You'll pay more initially, but you won't wind up with an extra box of useless planes where the guy at the flea market thought that all wooden molding plane wedges were interchangeable and mixed them all up (and various other tales of woe).

[Bob Smalser]

What everybody either forgets to mention or never understood in the first place, was that the fellas using these old planes a century or more ago had much better wood than you do.

Combination planes, for example, don't work well at all unless your stock is dense, tight-grained, perfectly straight-grained, and preferably quartersawn. Why? There's no sole bearing on the wood in front of the mouth to pin down the wood fibers for cutting. These are akin to using scissors without stretching out the cloth you are cutting.

Wooden molding planes don't have this problem, and work on lesser quality wood than do combo planes. The wood you have access to is a factor in choosing between the two.

No hand plane works well on swirly wood that's full of pin knots however. Like combo planes, it ain't your sharpening and it ain't your technique. Use the Makita or other tailed router on that stock.

And here's how to make a spar plane and the hollows from a hollow-round set, both of which are either hard to find or very expensive when you do.

Making Spar Planes
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=11233

[Jon Crowley]

THank you everybody for the tips. :) At this point, I'm leaning toward the japan woodworker planes for the rounds. They have a nice looking (simple) plough plane too. I think I'll start with those, then maybe try the lee valley blanks and mess around with making a molding plane or two at some point.

Thanks again!

[Joshua Clark]

Jon-

I don't use a router in my shop- here are the planes I use instead.

I use a Stanley 45 combination plane for most of my rabbetting work, both with and across the grain, and plowing larger grooves. This plane works well for this type of work. You can look for lower-priced versions of this plane by Sargent and Record that work quite well. Stanley made a skewed-blade version of this plane called a 46, which is a fun to use, but it's more expensive and harder to find complete.

For small grooves, like for drawer bottoms I use a Record or Rapier 043, which is a small plow that fits in the palm of your hand. It's handy.

The rest of the planes I use are wooden molding planes. As others have said, these can be tricky to buy since there are some common faults that can cause you you a lot of frustration or just make them completely unusable. Having said that, they are very common planes, relatively inexpensive (for common makers) and they are just plain fun to use. Another good thing about wooden planes is that the finish they leave on the stock is amazing- a properly tuned plane will leave a glass-smooth finish.

I use wooden dado planes for all dados- these planes have a skewed blade, a nicker that leads the blade to score the grain, and an integrated depth stop to limit the dado's depth. They require a fence or batten to be attached to the work to guide to plane. Once you have one setup you'll never go back to a router- they are very fast and efficient. I have a video of one of my dados in use: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgdV4eHrXTE

The other wooden plane I use a lot is a side bead. They are really easy to setup and use, assuming the blade is in good shape to begin with. Once it's tuned it makes short work of adding a nice detail to the edge of a door, frame, panel, etc. I keep a 1/4, 5/16, and 3/8 handy at all times. Here's one in use: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zXxl51zLd8

There are other specialty wooden planes you can invest in like moving fillisters (for rabbets), skewed rabbet planes, more complex shapes like thumbnails and ogees. Here are a couple of more examples:

Thumbnail with fence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owm87TGbAU0
Rabbet plane with nicker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqv_BaGsx-k

As you can tell, I enjoy using molding planes :)

Hope this helps!

Josh

[Robert Rozaieski]

Thumbnail with fence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owm87TGbAU0


Josh,
I'm curious if you've ever used this plane cross grain. I always thought these types of fenced quarter rounds were half of a pair of fenced table planes used for making a rule joint (which is always a long grain joint, at least that I've seen). I have always thought of trying one for something like a lipped drawer edge or a table edge but had my doubts about the finish they would leave on a cross grain cut. I've also never seen them in small sizes (1/4", 3/8") like one would use for a lipped drawer profile. Have you ever tried it cross grain?

[Brian Kent]

What everybody either forgets to mention or never understood in the first place, was that the fellas using these old planes a century or more ago had much better wood than you do.

Combination planes, for example, don't work well at all unless your stock is dense, tight-grained, perfectly straight-grained, and preferably quartersawn. Why? There's no sole bearing on the wood in front of the mouth to pin down the wood fibers for cutting. These are akin to using scissors without stretching out the cloth you are cutting.

Wooden molding planes don't have this problem, and work on lesser quality wood than do combo planes. The wood you have access to is a factor in choosing between the two.

No hand plane works well on swirly wood that's full of pin knots however. Like combo planes, it ain't your sharpening and it ain't your technique. Use the Makita or other tailed router on that stock.



Bob, I think you just gave us a really profound and important piece of information. When I read it the first time I was thinking about the straight grained wood in the planes themselves. Now I see you are talking about the wood we are working on with the combination planes. A word of experience like that can save us from a lot of frustration. Thanks.

[James Owen]

THank you everybody for the tips. :) At this point, I'm leaning toward the japan woodworker planes for the rounds. They have a nice looking (simple) plough plane too. I think I'll start with those, then maybe try the lee valley blanks and mess around with making a molding plane or two at some point.

Thanks again!

The JW hollows & rounds are decent planes; the steel in the irons is surprisingly good, and takes/holds an edge well.

The plow is also a decent plane, but it is "one handed"; at least mine was: the fence would fit only on one side of the plane. As long as you take that into account, it will do fine work for you.

[Chuck Nickerson]

Joshua Clark - welcome aboard SMC. Based on the Youtube videos of yours I just watched, you'll have a lot to contribute.

[Joshua Clark]

Josh,
I'm curious if you've ever used this plane cross grain. Have you ever tried it cross grain?

Hi Robert-

You're right, it does look a lot like a fenced table hollow plane. To figure out the difference I reviewed a bunch of plane makers' catalogs as well as Sellen's and Whelen's books on wooden planes. The plane that I referred to as a fenced thumbnail is called a fenced casing molding plane, or casing plane in the catalogs. Chapin's 1890 catalog and Sellen also refer to it as a quarter round with fence. This type of plane was apparently a fairly recent invention, appearing in the Chapin catalog and the Ohio 1910 catalog where it is described as a "new style plane.. works more easily than the old style." I also think it's a purely American plane- I've never seen a British example.

The casing plane cut an elongated curve, like an ovolo, rather than the more circular profile the table plane made. The table table plane cut a more round shape. The table plane also had a much shorter "leg" on the escapement side of the plane. To illustrate the point, the fenced casing plane could stand up on its own on a benchop, the fenced table plane would fall over. The two planes do look a lot alike though, and there's no reason you couldn't use a fenced table plane to make this thumbnail profile..

They were offered in various sizes from 3/8" all the way up to 1 1/2". The smaller ones are rare, you're right. I just picked up a couple of smaller sizes recently and they were the first I've seen. You'll also see "double" fenced casing planes with a cutter on the right and left side that are helpful when the grain is running against you.

These planes were apparently meant to work only with the grain on casing moldings around doors and windows. I have used these planes a bit on table tops and drawer fronts. They can be used across the grain, but it's tough going. You need to score the fibers with a slitting gauge or fillester before you go across grain in order to make the transition as neat as possible. I've had better luck in hard woods than soft when planing across grain- maple worked well while pine and spruce tore out a bit. One thing they have going for them is they are easy to use- just keep pressure on the fence and plane until you can't plane any more, and really easy to sharpen and maintain.

Josh

[Joshua Clark]

Thanks for the welcome, Chuck. I hang around the Old Tools list a lot, and I lurk on SawMill creek and a few other places.. I don't usually have a lot to contribute, but I can't resist talking molding planes. Or saws..

Josh

[George Neill]

Is there a standard for hollow and round sizes in relation to their radii? For example, what are the dimensions of a #4, #10 and so on? I need a 1/2 inch hollow and round to make a cornice and want to buy second hand. Ebay has plenty of planes but I don't understand the sizing.

[Robert Rozaieski]

Is there a standard for hollow and round sizes in relation to their radii? For example, what are the dimensions of a #4, #10 and so on? I need a 1/2 inch hollow and round to make a cornice and want to buy second hand. Ebay has plenty of planes but I don't understand the sizing.

There is no standard. Just about every manufacturer did it differently, especially the US manufacturers. The best way is to ask the seller what the width of the iron is. Because the iron arc is 1/6th of a circle, the width of the iron is the same as the radius. So a 1/2" wide iron cut's about 1/2" radius. However, this can be a lot of different numbers. In an Auburn it's a #6, in an Ohio I think it's a #3, in most English made planes it's a #8. There is no standard convention.

[George Neill]

Thank you for the description and I will ask before buying then.

[Maurice Metzger]

Note that plough planes can't cut the very beginning or very end of stopped grooves because of the skate in front of and behind the blade.

I guess that's why some Shaker dovetailed boxes have plugged grooves for the bottom.

Maurice