Brazing slag on WWII saw blade

[Dan Mitchell]

Yesterday, I bought a Forrest WWII 1/8" kerf blade for my TS at the local Rockler. This is my 2nd WWII, I'm planning to send the 1st one in for resharpening. When I removed the plastic coating from the blade, I immediately noticed the presence of a lot of rough slag just behind the carbide tips. I've never noticed this on any other blade, and especially not on my 1st WWII, which at this point is about 3 years old. The pic below shows the slag. The new blade is on the bottom, the older one on top. If anything, the slag is even more noticeable in person. I called Forrest, they told me they'd replace the blade (or that Rockler would), either one is of course at least a bit of a PITA, but that the slag was only cosmetic. I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this. Should I get this blade replaced? The width & height of the slag does not exceed that of the carbide at any point.

TIA

Dan

[Matt Meiser]

If you don't want to go to the hassle of returning it then ask them if its OK to try it and if it doesn't work to your satisfaction have them replace it as suggested.

If it works to your satisfaction then there's nothing to worry about.

[Mike Henderson]

When brazing you use a flux. My guess it that's what you have. They should have cleaned it up, of course, but it that's what it is, you can usually get it off with a wire brush and maybe some hot water.

Mike

[Rod Sheridan]

If the "stuff" isn't brazing flux, I'd send it back.

What did they do wrong, too much brazing? not enough heat? not clean enough? not enough flux?

When I see welds or brazing that look like crap, it normally means that the integrity is crap.

Unless they sold you the blade for half price as is, you paid for a quality cutting tool, which isn't what you received.

Regards, Rod.

[Andy Sowers]

There was a similar post about a WWII blade here a few months ago...

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1174388

Yours doesnt look as bad as this one, but apparently the extra brazing did cause the quality of cut to be compromised. I'd take it back for a refund/exchange.

Andy

[Dan Mitchell]

Thanks for the replies. My blade isn't as bad as the one in the link Andy posted, at least the brazes themselves look a bit better (though there are more small bubbles than in my 3 year old example) but as Rod said, you wonder if the joints were heated thoroughly, etc.

I asked Forrest about cleaning the blade, they advised against it. Maybe the guy I talked to wasn't the sharpest tooth on the blade :D. I did try a brass brush by hand, dry, didn't have much impact, though as a test, I was able to scrape a bit away with a pocket knife.

I also wonder what effect this has on the blade's balance, or, since it was (apparently) balanced with the crud in place, what effect REMOVING it would have in that regard.

This is just the kind of PITA you hope to AVOID by buying (and let's not forget PAYING FOR) what's supposed to be quality. I still don't know what I'm going to do. I can see myself standing there at the Rockler counter as they open one after another, with all of them looking the same. What an annoyance.

Dan

[scott spencer]

From what I can see in the pic, I wouldn't even give it a thought if it cuts well.

[Steve Clardy]

From what I can see in the pic, I wouldn't even give it a thought if it cuts well.

Ditto. I would use it.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

I'm on the fence for this. You did pay for what I percieve as a high quality blade, it should be 100% OK. Hard to say from the pics, but on one hand, it MAY be flux, or brazing slag, which has nothing to do with actual strength, other than IF it impacts the cut quality. On the other hand, I agree that a "good" braze is slag free. Any slag COULD be indicating a deeper problem. Since you said that you can scrape it off, I'd say it's flux, and you needn't worry. You shouldn't be able to scrape off slag with a pocket knife.

I didn't check my WWII in great detail, and it cuts well.... Maybe I should take a look and see if I have slag. In any production (mass production) it would be hard to get a 100% error free output. That other post, I'd say is not the norm.

[Dan Mitchell]

Yeah, for the $$$ paid, I really don't feel like I should have to speculate about it. And if I hadn't already had a WWII which did not have this situation, I probably wouldn't have given it much though, even though I've never noticed it on any of the other blades which have passed through my hands over the years (not a huge number, maybe 10 assorted blades in total).

At the moment, I'm leaning towards exchanging the blade for a Freud 40T Hi ATB Premium Fusion blade http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17374&filter=freud I bought a Freud 80T "Ultimate Cutoff" on sale at Sears about a year ago. While no doubt partly due to the high tooth count, I have been very impressed with the cuts this blade produces.

[scott spencer]

...At the moment, I'm leaning towards exchanging the blade for a Freud 40T Hi ATB Premium Fusion blade http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=17374&filter=freud I bought a Freud 80T "Ultimate Cutoff" on sale at Sears about a year ago. While no doubt partly due to the high tooth count, I have been very impressed with the cuts this blade produces.

Even though the P410 Fusion and the WWII are both general purpose blades, they have different strengths and weaknesses, and aren't overly similar outside of their general purpose category and tooth count. I saw the Fusion demoed by Jerry Coles for Peachtree when it first came out and was impressed....but there's never a free lunch. It's different than most 40T general purpose blades, and does some things better, but there's also a price to pay to get that performance. The Infinity Super General 010-044 is very similar...both are Hi-ATB grinds with 30° bevels (vs 10° - 20°), and both have a dual side grind and very low side clearance. The plus side is that they're superior at ply, veneers, fine crosscuts, and polished rip cuts. The downside is that the Hi-ATB tend to abrade more rapidly than teeth with a lower bevel. The high bevel is also not as efficient at ripping as a lower bevel. The dual side grind combined with the low side clearance gives a very highly polished edge....however, if the wood is moist, prone to burning, warped, the saw's alignment isn't quite right, or the wood is very thick and the feed rate slows, burning is more likely to occur.

I haven't yet spun a P410 on my own saw (waiting for a good sale!), but can say that the very similar Super General is the cleanest cutting general purpose/combo blade that I've used to date....I'd expect very similar results from the P410. The WWII, TS2000, Gold Medal, and DW7657 are more efficient rippers, but will have more tear out in crosscuts and ply than the P410 or Super General. Cleanest cut isn't necessarily always the best choice though...as with many things, it really boils down to suitability for what you do and what the need is, as opposed to one being clearly superior to the other. Since you've got cleans crosscuts and ply well covered with your 80T Freud, why not consider a 30T WWII? Nearly as clean cutting as the 40T, but is much more efficient at ripping...it's even reasonably adept at crosscuts.

[Dan Mitchell]

Scott - My plan when buying the new WWII was to use it while my 1st WWII was being sharpened by Forrest, then rotate the 2. I will still get the 1st Forrest sharpened, so I will have it in any case. I see what you mean about the 30 tooth, though I haven't really noted any problem ripping with my PM2000 & the 40 tooth WWII, and I think I'd prefer to err on the side of cut quality. If anything, what you've said about the Fusion's cut quality makes me MORE inclined to try the Freud! :D

BTW, one thing that made me go pick up the blade last week was a 20% discount coupon I had from Rockler ;)

Thank you for taking the time to make such an informative reply!

[Tom Walz]

If there are bubbles in the braze alloy it got hot enough. Actually it got a bit too hot. The braze alloy is silver, copper, zinc, nickel. If it gets a little too hot the zinc boils out and leaves gas bubbles. However your tip should stay on.

The black stuff looks like dried flux. If it is overheated it can be very hard to remove.

[Josh Reet]

This is just the kind of PITA you hope to AVOID by buying (and let's not forget PAYING FOR) what's supposed to be quality. I still don't know what I'm going to do. I can see myself standing there at the Rockler counter as they open one after another, with all of them looking the same. What an annoyance.

Dan

Not to make light of what is obviously an annoyance for you. But was doing that exact same thing on the other end of the spectrum the other day at Harbor Freight. Opening up a pile of boxes to make sure I was getting a cheap-o laminate trimmer that had all the parts. But that's pretty standard operating procedure at Harbor Freight (especially if you live ore than 15 minutes away).

Sure you'd expect better from a higher class of product. But then again, nothing is perfect. And the Q/C guys aren't going to catch everything no matter how much it sells for.