Antique repair

[Rick Levine]

My wife inherited a "secretary" from her parents that is in need of some repair and restoration. I am definitely not very accomplished at this but I thought I'd attempt a bit of the work, at least the chipped parts as well as some of the re-gluing.

The close-up photos show the front of the drawer that has been chipped on both ends. I'd like some suggestions how to repair these chips.

[Bruce Volden]

Rick,

Have you thought of putty? You can get a real close color and then stain and add some "grain" with a dental pick to come very close, I guess that is how I would go about it-seems like a little area. BTW I love the piece!!

Bruce

[Frank Guerin]

It's a real long shot but you may want to do a little research on the piece. If it winds up being valuble then retoration by someone with creditials (even if the work is equal or sub to yours) will keep or encrease the value.

Whjer is spell cheak when u nead it?

[Ed Nelson978]

Please don't use putty. I don't know if the piece has any value, but putty will devalue it. Pay attention to the glue type and finish. Likely hide glue and shellac.

[Todd Carpenter]

Hi Rick,

Frank and Ed both echo much of what the hard core antiquers say. They don't even like you to disturb the dust on the piece. I have a friend in the antique business and he says even repairs will de-value a piece, even if done by professonals. Personally, I think that's nuts... But, you need to decide if you want to maintain the value, or maintain the furniture.

For me, I would do the repairs, but I'm not sure I would fix those particular chips. For me, every old piece of furniture has a story to tell, and those chips are definitely part of its story and part of its charm...

If you do decide to repair the chips, you probably need to look at cutting out the chips and inserting/matching the wood maybe from another part of the desk (unless you think you can match it with new stuff) versus the putty approach. I think you're going to need the strength, my guess is those corners saw lots of bumps and that's why they chipped - I don't think the putty would stand up to it.

HTH
Todd

[mike holden]

Rick,
First determine what type of wood it is.
Second repair the chips by cutting away a squared chunk, replacing it with a new piece, then carving in the detail.
Third refinish and enjoy.

Keep in mind that this is a rather interesting piece, and ANY repairs will seriously affect its value. We can argue all day about the sanity of that, but, it is true in today's market.

So, really, first thing to do is get an appraisal, then decide if you want to sell, keep for the future sale, or repair and use. Dont forget that sentimental value, is value even if not a dollar value.

Me, I would repair it, use it, enjoy the memories, and let my heirs worry about the monetary value.

Mike

[John Keeton]

Rick, I have done repairs like this on various old oak pieces. I agree with the comments on value, and that is certainly something to consider. But, in this situation, value only means something if the piece is going to be sold. Sounds like it is a family piece, and therefore resale value means little. Perhaps in a couple of generations, it will be sold for lack of interest. At that point, its value may or may not be significant depending on the public sentiment at the time. The value of Victorian oak has fluctuated significantly based on regional considerations, etc.

Do you intend on applying a coat of finish? If so, I would do some real testing on this. The original finish is probably shellac, with years of dirt and wax. If you decide on applying a coat of finish, a good cleaning would be in order first to see what you have. If then you decide on applying a finish, I would consider a top coat or two of shellac, rubbed out to a nice soft finish.

Personally, on the repairs I would never use putty. My preference would be to smooth the break, and glue in a piece of white oak with a similar grain and reshape the carving. You will never be able to match exactly the color and patina, but with testing, you can get close. A decision to not clean the piece significantly will make repair easier as you can "muddy" up the patches to match the accumulated dirt on the carvings.

On your test pieces, keep in mind that if you apply a coat of finish to the overall piece, that will effect the overall color, and will need to be considered in the color matching. The effect of shellac on new wood is considerably different than on old wood.

Getting the grain fill on the patches is a consideration, as well, and has always been an issue in repairs I have done. Seems no matter how hard one tries, it is very difficult to replicate the look of old, used white oak that was perhaps fumed to begin with.

Another option, since the damage is nearly identical on either side, is to simply remove the "ears" that remain, and reshape to eliminate the other reverse ogee on the carving, making is end flush with the bottom edge of the front. You could tint the raw cuts and blend them in. This would not be my choice.

And, as others have said, you can just ignore them as part of the history of the piece. Personally, I don't like that as the damage is fairly new and distracting. Although, again, you could tint the raw faces to make them less noticeable.

That is a beautiful piece, with great character. It will be a family piece for years to come, so make your choices thoughtfully.

[Rick Levine]

Since this is a family heirloom that will stay that way I will carefully do the repairs by adding wood to the chipped corners and trying my hand at carving. Fortunately I have some old QSRO that was part of an old bed that should match pretty closely. Most, if not all of any protective finish is long gone so I'll probably be able to match the repairs fairly easily.

[John Keeton]

Rick, the red oak will work, but white oak would work better and the grain and color would match better.

[Rick Levine]

I thought the piece was red oak. I compared it with the oak I have and it seemed the same. Maybe what I have is in fact white oak afterall. I'll be taking the door/desk area to Woodworker Supply next weekend to get a better idea.

[Tracy White]

John Keeton mentioned smoothing the break but he didn't say how. I would use a sharp chisel to make a smooth recess to fit a new piece into. Oak is not easy to carve. The shape you are trying to duplicate is fairly simple. It might be easier to shape your new piece with a dremel tool with a small sanding drum.

[Tony Bilello]

Rick, the piece appears to be white oak. I have worked on many antiques and I dont ever recall working on red oak. White oak was the furniture wood of the past. Red Oak is inferior to white oak in many respects and furniture manufacturers just did not like it. Your QSRO will most likely not match the white oak and will probably be prone to splitting while carving.

Here is a suggestion to practise your carving skills. Since you will have to chisel off a certain amount of wood in order to add a small block to be carved, at least a 1/16" or more will be removed. Try adding a small glob of bondo to see how well you can sculpt the piece. Of course, the real white oak piece will be much tougher to carve, but at least you will find out if you have the 'eye' for it. If the area around the bondo was carefully masked off, there will be no damage to the piece because that bondo area would have to be scraped and cut off anyway while trying to to make a smooth place for the glue-up of the wjite aok block to be carved.

There are also lots of philosophies about antique repairs. First consider that the damaged area already devalued the piece. If a proper repair is made, this will increase the value of the piece. With Christi's and Southerby's auctions, the value of a piece is largely determined by how well a repair was made. Antique furniture is always worth more when properly reconstructed than if it is laying like a pile of rubble. This example is a bit radical but it should give you an idea of how value is determined.
Also consider that not all antiques have any real value. Especially the junk that was turned out during the depression. Many of my clients are aware of this 'value' and just want a piece repaired 'on the cheap'. In that case, I have used CA glue and sawdust as well as dyed epoxy to make minor repairs.

[Lee Schierer]

I've heard the pros and cons for repairing/refinishing an antique. You will need to consult with an antique appraiser to get an official opinion.

If I were to try to repair the damage you showed, I definitely wouldn't use wood putty. I would look around for a matching piece of the same type of wood (look like white oak) and carefully carve a replacement corner and carefully fit it in place, altering the original piece as little as possible. Then I would glue the new piece on and finish it to match the rest of the piece. A piece of matching wood, may show that it was repaired, but it will look a lot better than putty with no grain orientation.

[Rick Levine]

The piece is part of my wife's childhood memories and as such she will never sell it so its value as an antique is meaningless to her. We have no children so leaving it as an heirloom also isn't important. I'm just going to do the best I can to repair and stabilize it. I already did that to an end table she also received and she seems very happy with that.

[David Keller NC]

My wife inherited a "secretary" from her parents that is in need of some repair and restoration. I am definitely not very accomplished at this but I thought I'd attempt a bit of the work, at least the chipped parts as well as some of the re-gluing.

The close-up photos show the front of the drawer that has been chipped on both ends. I'd like some suggestions how to repair these chips.

Rick - If that's a Victorian piece, it's got to be the most unusual and highest quality one I've ever seen. Most of the Victorian pieces I've seen in white oak were basic boxes with some really crude, manufactured carvings applied to them.

What you have is definitely a cut above that genre. It is possible that you have an early arts and crafts piece - much of the early part of the movement was considerably more curvaceous and (in my opinion) considerably more interesting than the later Stickley boxes.

For that reason, I'd strongly suggest that you have someone that has some expertise in that field evaluate it before you do anything to it. "Family heirloom" means different things to different people, but most of us would probably part with a piece of grandmother's furniture if it turned out to be really valuable, and then have a copy made. This is, in fact, what was done with the Goddard family tea table - Sotheby's arranged to have Alan Breed make a couple of exact copies for the heirs. That piece sold for nearly $7 million, and what you've pictured is unlikely to bring 1/100th of that, much less 1/10th, but I think most of us wold consider parting with a Stickley piece if it fetched $70k and many of them do fetch that in today's market.

[george wilson]

Having been around antiques for many years,I don't think your piece is particularly valuable. Plus,it has been striped at some point. That piece has nothing to do with"Arts and Crafts" furniture. It is the type furniture that was sold by catalogs like Montgomery Wards at the turn of the century. It was all made of oak.

Your piece is also missing the drawer.

Get a sharp chisel,and square up the missing pieces so you can cut new blocks of QUARTERED white oak into them. Use a dark glue. It shouldn't be too difficult to carve the new blocks of wood to match the missing pieces. You should bandsaw the contours into the pieces before gluing them in place. Having VERY sharp chisels will make a huge difference.

You will need to stain the replacement pieces after they are finished. Practice on left over quartered white oak first.Get the stain right or your repairs will stand out rather than blend in.

[David DeCristoforo]

Ditto what George said. During the twenties and thirties there was tons of that stuff made mostly of oak. It was the period's version of what you would buy at Ikea today. In the sixties when the "antique craze" exploded, second hand shops and "antique stores" were full of the stuff. Many people made the presumption that these were "valuable antiques" but the "real" valuable antiques were made of woods like mahogany, walnut and rosewoods and were not likely to be found in second hand stores. This, I believe, is also how "solid oak" became synonymous with "quality" in the minds of many. So go ahead and repair your desk and don't worry too much about your work affecting the value of "the piece". I recently rebuilt an old oak dresser for a guy who was happier spending a few hundred to fix up something that was actually made of wood in lieu of buying a new veneered MDF clunker. There is no doubt that the factory furniture of the twenties and thirties was of much better quality than today's "equivalent".

[Brian Penning]

The piece is part of my wife's childhood memories and as such she will never sell it so its value as an antique is meaningless to her. We have no children so leaving it as an heirloom also isn't important. I'm just going to do the best I can to repair and stabilize it. I already did that to an end table she also received and she seems very happy with that.

Knowing the above I'd file/sand down those damaged raised areas to blend in with the corners.
Then match the finish.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
If it's a massed produced piece, you should be able to track it down pretty easy by looking for that same "demon face" on the door front.

[george wilson]

There were a LOT of furniture makers back then. You would have to be lucky to find that piece in an old catalog,and so what if you did? There are a few reprints of old Monkey wards and Sears catalogs around,but they don't contain everything that was available back then.

The piece was definitely mass produced. You can tell so by the way it is designed. Flat pieces with shaper cut edges. The carvings may have been pantographed out and cleaned up by hand. Lots of carvers back then.

[Rick Levine]

Brian, that would be the easy way but I've never been known to do things the easy way. I have some old QSWO that should match so I think I'll attempt that method. Wish me luck.

[Rick Levine]

I finally got started on the repairs. After some careful carving and fitting with my chisels I was able to fit some matching wood I had on hand to the chipped corners. After the glue dried I used my oscillating spindle sander to refine the fit. Then I cleaned it with mineral spirits and applied a coat of stain to the whole piece. The last step is to reassemble the drawer.

[John Keeton]

Rick, beautifully done!! This piece deserved the effort you put into it, and others after you will certainly appreciate the quality of restoration.

[Rick Levine]

David, I'm afraid that this may be one of those Monty Ward type pieces with applied carvings, as a matter of fact I had to re-glue a couple of pieces that had come loose.

George, the piece I am working on is the front of the drawer you indicate is missing. I had to disassemble it to replace the bottom and fix the broken ends.

My next problem is how to clean the brass hinges. I'm not sure what solution I should use. I don't want to remove all of the patina just clean some of the green corrosion off. What do you guys suggest? I have TSP and naval jelly but I don't know if they are the right things to use. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

[John Keeton]

David, I'm afraid that this may be one of those Monty Ward type pieces with applied carvings...Regardless Rick, they simply do not make this stuff anymore, and just price some of the "hand-carved" oak appliques!!:eek: It is a nice piece, and has tremendous character. The Smithsonian may not be interested, but it would be a keeper in my house. You are doing it right, and that is the only way to restore a piece.

[Von Bickley]

Regardless Rick, they simply do not make this stuff anymore, and just price some of the "hand-carved" oak appliques!!:eek: It is a nice piece, and has tremendous character. The Smithsonian may not be interested, but it would be a keeper in my house. You are doing it right, and that is the only way to restore a piece.

I agree with John........ Good job.

[Mac Cambra]

Very cool, I think the repairs came out great.

[Todd Carpenter]

Hi Rick,



My next problem is how to clean the brass hinges. I'm not sure what solution I should use. I don't want to remove all of the patina just clean some of the green corrosion off. What do you guys suggest? I have TSP and naval jelly but I don't know if they are the right things to use. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

I wouldn't use either one to clean the brass. If you want to maintain some of the patina, just use brasso and some steel wool (regular or synthetic), or even just a cloth. Brasso is really mild and won't remove much without a lot of elbow grease, so you have control over how much shine to add back in.

If you want to get them back to "new", soak them in straight ammonia for a bit (use a clear container with a lid so you can keep checking their progress). The brass will come out of the ammonia clean but not shiny by any means. You can either buff with a buffing wheel and some rouge, this will get it to a bright shine, or go straight to the brasso for a milder shine.

Good luck and nice work!
Todd

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
Find a reloader & have them toss the hinges into their Dillon (vibrating brass cleaner) for about 10/15 min. That'll remove the verdigris, but leave the patina intact.
I do that all the time with small pieces/parts & old door hinges.

Brasso will take them up to bright real quick & w/out a lacquer protective coat, they'll soften out to a dark mustard color in a month or two.
I clean the brass frame of my (reproduction) 1851 Colt Navy revolver w/Brasso every year or two, admire the bright shiny finish - then just let it age to a dark mellow brown/yellow color.

TSP won't do much w/out using some sort of abrasive pad & naval jelly is way too harsh.

Tooth paste is a better choice since it won't abrade or degrade the brass.
Use (obviously) an old tooth brush and lots of hot, hot, hot tap water to rinse.


BTW - very nice repair job!
"Family" heirlooms - regardless of origin - are special.

[David Keller NC]

My next problem is how to clean the brass hinges. I'm not sure what solution I should use. I don't want to remove all of the patina just clean some of the green corrosion off. What do you guys suggest? I have TSP and naval jelly but I don't know if they are the right things to use. Any suggestions would be welcomed.

Rick - I run into this question on a frequent basis in regards to old brass on collector's tools. Collectors hate shiny brass, so the preserving the patina is critical. In my experience, any abrasive or chemical treatment will remove most of the patina as well as the verdigris. This is particularly true of Brasso.

What I use is a simple rag and some paste wax. The solvents in the paste wax as well as the action of rubbing the wax on and then buffing it off (with a cloth - not a power buffer!) will precerve most of the "color" on the brass.

[Rick Levine]

I finished the drawer and thought I'd post a photo of it. Well, it is almost finished. I ordered a vacuum press kit from Veneersupplies.com and the parts will be here tomorrow. I've already completed most of the construction so the final assembly won't take long. I have to laminate two pieces of ply together and rabbet 3 sides to fit in the dado in the front and sides because the original bottom was true 1/4" unlike today’s 1/4" ply. I just assembled it temporarily to show what it will look like when finished. Anyway, I digress. My new problem is how to fill the gouge in the side shown in the second photo. I can't take the leg/side off to fix it because the applied carvings would crack because they run from top to bottom. Again, any suggestions will be welcomed.

[Jim Holman]

Animal faces, animal feet, quarter sawn white oak veneer over solid oak. You are not missing any carving. The glued on "carving" is all there. You are missing a few small corners, shape the wood to an angle with a chisel, glue on matching wood, trim, stain, adjust, finish. I have sold many similar pieces, nice but not a show stopper. PM me and I will give you an idea of value.

[John Keeton]

Rick, that one is a little tougher! Looks like someone drove a nail in from the side and broke out a piece where the grain ran on the bias.

I would probably use a chisel and shave the break to get a flat glue surface, and the take a piece of QSWO, shape it to fit and work it down as good as possible before gluing it in. That grain is going to be tricky!

Looks like you did a great job on the drawer!

[Rick Levine]

John, it is actually it is a mixture of QSRO and straight grain RO and I was able to chisel out enough of the split and fabricate a patch to fit. Before I can glue it in I have to stabilize both sides by slightly separating them from the dust frames. They are just loose enough to use some syringes and squeeze glue in. Once I do that I will add the patch. I'll post photos when complete.

[Jim Holman]

Rick,

In cannel gouges work very well for this type of repair. You can use one to shape both the void and the patch. Is is about the only I have found to get a good fit for the patch.

[Rick Levine]

Well, it took me a while (lots of projects in between) but it is finally finished. I probably should have made more in progress photos but with all the other tasks I had around the house including a near flood from unusually heavy rains this year I neglected that task.

The hinge was especially tricky. The end that attaches to the door was threaded into the wood by creating threads in the wood itself. In order to reinforce it I cut some squares of brass sheeting, drilled a hole, chemically aged them and epoxyed them in order to support the wood. By the way, the chair in the photo was also a project. It was in such bad shape I had to completely disassemble it, sand, re-glue and stain it as well. Anyway here it is.


http://www.compupal.com/Darkroom/desk1a.jpg

http://www.compupal.com/Darkroom/desk2a.jpg

http://www.compupal.com/Darkroom/desk3a.jpg

http://www.compupal.com/Darkroom/desk4a.jpg

http://www.compupal.com/Darkroom/desk5a.jpg

[kevin loftus]

Very well done Rick, I would love to have one like
it in my home. The "Green Man" face is a favourite
of mine. :cool::cool::cool: