Shopping for a cabinet saw......what features?

[scott vroom]

I'm just getting started setting up a woodworking shop. My initial project will likely be kitchen cabinets, followed by bedroom/office furniture.

I'm looking at Grizzly because it seems to be a good value; lots of good reviews and awards. What features should I be looking at? I'm going to be cutting 4x8 stock so would probably need 50" capacity to the right of the blade.

I was hoping to keep it under $1,500. Appreciate any comments on the appropriate Grizzly model, or other brand/model suggestions.

Thanks-
Scott

[Rick Moyer]

For myself, I decided on the Grizzly G0691. (don't have it yet so no gloat yet!). I felt it offered the best value/price ratio. I never liked using the supplied guards, so I felt I should at least have a riving knife. Otherwise I may have just bought the 1023. Powermatic and Delta Unisaws, as well as General and some others all have had good reputations and would be good choices. The newest saws come with riving knives, whereas most older saws did not. If you want even more safety, the SawStop may be your choice, but they are a lot more money.
What you should look for depends on what you want. If you just want a very good reliable saw then any of the above will do. Given your price point, the Grizzly is probably the only one there you could get new, but used ones of the others would be very good saws.
Since you said cabinet saw, most will be either 3HP or 5HP. 3Hp should be enough and will not require as big a circuit (20a.). Other consideration would be left or right tilt, personal preference depending on how much you dado or bevel cut (look up left vs. right tilt for lots of info on that). I'm sure others will add to what I said.

[Greg Peterson]

A riving knife. I would not consider any new machine that did not come equipped with a riving knife.

Now if a smoking deal were available on a used cabinet saw that did not have a riving knife, I would have to consider that.

[Rod Sheridan]

Since you have mentioned sheet goods, I wouldn't purchase a cabinet saw.

A sliding saw (you mentioned Grizzly) is a far better choice for sheet goods.

I'd look for a used European slider, preferably with a scoring saw.

Generations ahead of a cabinet saw in performance and features.

Regards, Rod.

[Stan Mitchell]

No. 1 feature - riving knife!

I too have a Griz G0691. Having a riving knife on it is true pleasure.

I like Rod's suggestion of a slider if sheet goods are a priority.

[Stephen Saar]

Going to prove my ignorance here, but what is a sliding saw?

-Stephen

[Rod Sheridan]

Going to prove my ignorance here, but what is a sliding saw?

-Stephen

Stephen, you're not ignorant, you're smart enough to ask for help, that's called smart.

A sliding saw has a table beside the blade, that slides on bearings.

It does so many things better than a cabinet saw, which really only rips well.

Look up the following and watch some of the videos.

Felder, Hammer, MiniMax etc.

I'm in the process of replacing my $4K General cabinet saw with a Hammer B3 Winner.

I wish I'd bought the Hammer first, could have saved myself a lot of money......Rod.

[scott vroom]

Since you have mentioned sheet goods, I wouldn't purchase a cabinet saw.

A sliding saw (you mentioned Grizzly) is a far better choice for sheet goods.

I'd look for a used European slider, preferably with a scoring saw.

Generations ahead of a cabinet saw in performance and features.

Regards, Rod.


As I mentioned my budget is $1,500.....sliding saws start at $2,600. You're probably right but way beyond my budget.

[scott vroom]

I googled "hammer saw" and it came up empty

[Karl Brogger]

"Shopping for a cabinet saw......what features? "

An "ON" switch, and a place to put a blade. Other than it being of decent quality the rest is a waste.

[Dan Friedrichs]

You don't want to know Hammer's prices :)

For a starting hobbyist looking to get a good value, you should look for a good used cabinet saw, or look at one of Grizzly's offerings.

There have been several recent safety innovations in table saws. If you buy new, definitely pay extra for a riving knife. This is a piece of metal that protrudes behind the blade, keeping wood from pinching the blade at the back end, which drastically reduces the possibility of kickback. SawStop also produces a $3k cabinet saw of very good quality which will stop the blade nearly instantly if it detects contact with your skin.

[Josiah Bartlett]

If you have the space, an outfeed table is really nice to have when dealing with sheet goods. Also, a few zero clearance inserts and a good miter gauge upgrade. The inserts and the outfeed table you can make yourself or buy prefab. I like my Incra miter gauge a lot.

Also, a stack dado set and a UHMW fence face is nice for doing cabinets, and a good blade is important. I would set aside some of your budget for those upgrades. If you are doing doors then a tenoning jig is nice if you are using M&T joinery.

A riving knife is nice, but a splitter is just as safe as long as you remember to use it. The nice thing about the riving knife is that it raises and lowers with the blade, while the splitter has to be manually adjusted.

[Art Mulder]

A riving knife. I would not consider any new machine that did not come equipped with a riving knife.

This.


No. 1 feature - riving knife!

Again, This.


An "ON" switch, and a place to put a blade. Other than it being of decent quality the rest is a waste.

I rather disagree with this.

For one thing, the table must be flat. For another, a good fence makes a huge, huge difference. By good, I mean that it needs to move well, it needs to be straight, perpendicular to the table, and parallel to the miter slots. (and what is left unsaid is that the blade also needs to be parallel to the miter slots.)


A riving knife is nice, but a splitter is just as safe as long as you remember to use it. The nice thing about the riving knife is that it raises and lowers with the blade, while the splitter has to be manually adjusted.

A riving knife is also very close to the blade, and follows the curve of the blade, so that the gap between the blade and the knife is only somewhere around 1/4". My splitter, mounted to the factory blade-guard mount, is at least 5" behind the blade and that is too far. I have had wood try to move in that gap.

Yes, a splitter is far FAR better than nothing. But IMHO a riving knife is a superior choice.


Now I do think Rod has a point, but I don't think I could fit a slider in my 11x24 basement shop. :( (nor will it fit in my "ouch x cha-ching" budget... :p)

...art

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi,

Art, you and I have the same size shop, I'm replacing a cabinet saw and shaper with the Hammer B3 Winner. Less space required, more capability.

Scott, try looking for "Hammer B3" in a search engine. I'd look for a used slider, you won't regret it.......Regards, Rod.

[scott vroom]

Hi Rod,

I found a couple of Hammer 3 reviews on the web. 2 key drawbacks appeare to be:

1) No dado capability
2) Inferior rip fence

Cost looks to be $>6,000 which is about $4,000 past my budget.

[Brian Kent]

Scott, what part of the country do you live in?

[Prashun Patel]

Besides Riving knife (#1),

I like me a good fence. Should slide smoothly, be easy to adjust/align and lift on/off.

Three aftermarket things I'd budget for (in this order):

A good ripping blade and a good cross cutting or combo blade. For the budget minded, The Diablos and Ridgids Titaniums @ HD are a good buy. The Avanti used to be good, but has come into question by some round here recently. $80 for both

A good blade guard that's easy to put on/take off, and that has good dust collection - the over-arm ones (Excalibur) are very convenient but pricier than the Sharkguard which is what I have. Sharkg - $150.

[Art Mulder]

Hi,

Art, you and I have the same size shop, I'm replacing a cabinet saw and shaper with the Hammer B3 Winner. Less space required, more capability.

Scott, try looking for "Hammer B3" in a search engine. I'd look for a used slider, you won't regret it.......Regards, Rod.

Rod,

Who sells it in Canada? I've never really considered one.

As a hobbiest, I doubt I could justify the price. My current goal is a sawstop, preferably a PCS, but maybe the contractor version, which should be attainable in about a year of careful hobby-budget savings...

best,
...art

[scott vroom]

Scott, what part of the country do you live in?


Brian, I live in Northern California near SF.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Art, Felder Ontario have a showroom at 1745 Meyerside in Mississaugua.

They also have a website (Felder Ontario).

Andy would love to hear from you.........Rod.

[Art Mulder]

They also have a website (Felder Ontario).

Andy would love to hear from you.........Rod.

Link: Felder Ontario (http://toronto.felder-gruppe.at/).

Quite bluntly, I'm not that impressed with a company that wants me to create an ID/passwd and Login just to see some reviews, let alone see a price. :confused:

If they're at the Woodstock show, maybe I'll stop by and look at one.

[Jim O'Dell]

Scott, I agree with the ones that said a riving knife is almost essential. I am saving to try to belong to the Grizzly G0691 club. Right now it is 1350.00 with free shipping. Plenty room in your budget to then get a good quality blade or 2. I did see a post in the Deals forum above that someone is selling their remaining right tilt Delta Unis for 699.00-no fence. 999.00 with a 50" capacity fence. That is a good deal. But it doesn't have the riving knife, and I'd bet the G0691's Leeson motor is better quality. Another difference is the Grizz is left tilt.
Depending on where you are, there may be some good used saws out there. If you could get a slider for your price range, that would be killer. But it would be a very special gloat if you found one for that!! You can add sliding tables to other saws, but they aren't of the same quality, capacity or accuracy as the Euro saws that are designed that way.
Good luck in your search. Don't know how long the free shipping will be available on the Grizz. It was on sale in July and August for 1250.00 with free shipping. 45.00 above that until the 19th of this month, now back to the introductory price but with free shipping. Jim.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Rod,

I found a couple of Hammer 3 reviews on the web. 2 key drawbacks appeare to be:

1) No dado capability
2) Inferior rip fence

Cost looks to be $>6,000 which is about $4,000 past my budget.

Scott, ignore the reviews, they're a decade old if not more, and reflect a previous generation of machine.

Hammer and Felder not only take dadoe cutters, they have a far superior cutter to the normal stacked dado.

Their cutters are similar to shaper cutters with scoring and hogging cutters. Perfectly flat dado, without tearout.

The rip fence upgrade on the Winner is superior to the Biesemeyer in a couple of ways:

1) able to be pulled back so that it doesn't project behind the blade if required

2) can be either a tall fence, or a fence with about an 8mm height for ripping narrow strips

Login to the Felder site, get yourself a password and watch the videos, one is about an hour long and shows a desk being built using a full combination machine.

Used machines do show up..............Regards, Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Link: Felder Ontario (http://toronto.felder-gruppe.at/).

Quite bluntly, I'm not that impressed with a company that wants me to create an ID/passwd and Login just to see some reviews, let alone see a price. :confused:

If they're at the Woodstock show, maybe I'll stop by and look at one.


http://www.woodworkingexpo.ca/

Art, Felder/Hammer will not be at Woodstock. I don't remember MiniMax being there either.

They are at the above trade show in Toronto this Saturday, I believe admission is $30.

Your login to Felder also gives you access to some great videos, including one showing a desk being made using a full combination machine.

Regards, Rod.

[Art Mulder]

I don't remember MiniMax being there either.

Federated Tool is a Minimax dealer, and Federated are always at Woodstock. Now, Whether or not they bring any with them, is another matter. I'm pretty sure they brought them to Toronto last March. Might depend on what they expect to move at Woodstock?

[Chris Ricker]

+3 (or 4) on the riving knife, it really is one of the best investments and improvements in woodworking table saws in a long time.

I have owned and used the GO651 for well over a year and am very happy with it.
I have a hard time getting full sized sheet goods down to the shop. I have to break them down in the garage then get them to the shop and cut to size on the table saw so I can't give a qualified opinion in respect to breaking down full sheets,however the GO691 suits me perfectly for my needs.

[Cody Colston]

Scott,

The fence is the heart of any tablesaw. Assuming there aren't any glaring defects like a bent arbor or some such, just about any TS will perform satisfactorily if it has a good fence. The Grizzly Shop Fox fence is a good one.

At least 3 hp is a nice-to-have, also. Most everyone on this forum has probably done some fine work with a 1.5 hp contractor saw at some point but 3 hp is really appreciated if you are cutting 8/4 or larger hardwood.

A flat table, although unless you can see it with the naked eye, a bit of uneveness probably won't matter at all. What I'm saying is that you don't need to check it with a machinest's straight edge and feeler gauges. That's just being anal. After all, this is woodworking we're discussing here.

I view sliders as 1. Unnecessarily expensive for a hobbiest and 2. unnecessary for anyone unless working mostly with sheet goods.

Riving knives are a nice-to-have but woodworkers got by without them for decades. Also, they are not a "new" innovation, just new to American-style table saws since the Government only recently made them mandatory on all new models. They've been around in Europe for a long while. They don't make the saw cut any better but they could prevent kickback in some cases that a splitter would not. That's a personal choice to me.

For a $1500 budget, I think you are on the right track thinking Grizzly. They don't have the best tablesaws made but they do offer the best value IMNSHO. The other alternative would be looking for a used cabinet saw. You could always upgrade the fence system.

[scott spencer]

Either the Grizzly G0690/0691 or the G1023SL are great values at current pricing. A sound design and good fence are givens. A riving knife is nice, but a good aftermarket blade is more important to performance IMHO. An aftermarket riving knife called the B-O-R.K is available for the 1023 from Walnutacres WWing. Several good splitters are available as well.

Note that the rails on left tilt saws can easily modified and slid to the right for additional ripping capacity, so you can end up with 36" rip on the 1023SL.

[Mike Henderson]

Riving knives are a nice-to-have but woodworkers got by without them for decades. Also, they are not a "new" innovation, just new to American-style table saws since the Government only recently made them mandatory on all new models. They've been around in Europe for a long while. They don't make the saw cut any better but they could prevent kickback in some cases that a splitter would not. That's a personal choice to me.
Just to clarify, there is no government mandate for riving knives. As I understand it, Underwriter's Laboratory, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwriters_Laboratories) which is a private firm that certifies equipment for safety, will require riving knives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riving_knife) in order to obtain the UL certification. This essentially forces manufacturers to include riving knives because many insurance companies will not insure companies who use non-UL equipment.

I add this clarification because we hear too often about how the government is mandating certain things - and in this case they're not.

Mike

[scott vroom]

This forum is AWESOME! I appreaciate all your comments, just a wealth of info to consider.

I know there are better saws out there, but at my price point (<$1,500) I believe Grizzly offers the best value. I've narrowed it down to 2 models:
G0690 or G0691. Models are nearly identical & both have riving knives. The main difference is that the G0690 has a 30" max rip capacity, while the G0691 comes with longer rails and can rip up to 50". I'm starting out with a relatively small shop but could manage to squeeze in the G6091 (7' overall width). However, Grizzly offers add-on extenders for the G0690 for around $200. At the worst, it would be inconvenient to add/remove the extender kit. I guess the real question is how valuable is the 50" rip capability and how often would I need it in making typical kitchen and household furniture? I'm leaninng toward the G0691 since at some point I'll be moving into a larger shop where space will not be an issue.

Thanks in advance for your comments.
Scott Vroom

[Matt Stiegler]

You're in luck, this exact issue was recently discussed here (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=120207).

[Dan Friedrichs]

Scott,

Here's a link to a recent thread discussing what size rails to buy:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=120207

As with most everything, bigger is better. You can get by without the longer rails, but if it's not terribly inconvenient, you will probably find them useful.


EDIT: Matt, you type faster than me! :)

[scott spencer]

Scott if space is a concern, you can get the shorter stock rails and slide them over by about 10" to the right. You'll gain right side capacity and lose left side capacity, which is something you'll almost never need with a left tilt saw. That'd give you 40" rip with the G0690, and 36" with the G1023SL.

50" would probably be handy now and then, but you'd enjoy having that huge extension table for many other applications.

[scott vroom]

Scott Spencer, thanks for the comments. Do you have personal experience with moving the rails on the G0690? I read a post on another thread that indicated some machining might be involved in moving the rails on the G0690.

[Neal Clayton]

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/tls/1386838445.html

powermatic 65 needs some work but looks to have everything but the switch, 500 dollars.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/1385206686.html

powermatic 66, three phase will need a phase converter, but 1100 dollars

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/1393830126.html

3hp unisaw, 1000 dollars

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/1388276409.html

old unisaw 600 dollars

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/tls/1385362806.html

another old unisaw says it's in working condition, 350 dollars

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/scz/tls/1384147204.html

another newer unisaw, 750 dollars

http://monterey.craigslist.org/tls/1379515088.html

semi-old unisaw 600 dollars


there's rarely, if ever, a reason to pay new price for a new table saw. they're simple tools, save some cash ;). they don't really wear out, other than motor and bearings it's all cast iron.

as long as there's no wobble in the arbor and the motor is ok, it'll be fine. worst case scenario, you have to shell out 50 bucks for a new set of bearings. get yourself a dial indicator from your local machine supply store and go look at some used ones. you'll probably find a good deal on one and wind up spending half of what you planned on.

i've never owned a new one. went from a 40 year old unisaw to a 20 year old PM66 about two years ago. as far as i know, the only thing either of my old saws ever got was a new coat of wax on the tables, new belts, and new blades when the old ones couldn't be sharpened anymore. and i use mine every day, probably alot more than people who only get a chance to do stuff on the weekends do. actually i take that back, i do like newer fences, so i did shell out 200 bucks for a new fence for the PM66, primarily because the fence that came with it was too large for the space i had it in. but even that didn't cost me anything, sold the 10 foot fence to a guy across town with a speaker box shop and used the proceeds to pay for my new fence.

you can spend alot of money on new tools, or a little money on old tools, and the result isn't too far off no matter which way you go...in many cases the the old tools come out ahead.

[scott spencer]

Scott Spencer, thanks for the comments. Do you have personal experience with moving the rails on the G0690? I read a post on another thread that indicated some machining might be involved in moving the rails on the G0690.

Hi Scott - I've slid the rails to the right on my former Craftsman 22124 with a Biesemeyer fence, and my current Shop Fox W1677 (same as a Grizzly G1023SL) with the SF Classic fence. The SF Classic and Biese are pretty similar designs, and the process is pretty simple.

All that was involved was unbolting the top front tube from the front angle bracket, sliding the top tube to the right by one bolt hole, and reinstalling 4 of the 5 bolts that hold the tube in place. Leave the angle bracket in place per the instructions, you're simply going to cantilever the tube about 10" further over the bracket....still plenty strong. In your case with a new assembly, you'll just start with the fence tube over farther than instructions call for. You install one less bolt, and relocate the reference tape accordingly. You'll then need to fill the space between the rails with an extension table of some sort for the fence to slide on...I added a router table there. The G0690 may be a little different, but the process should be very similar. The 22124 required relocating the switch on the rail, but the Shop Fox did not. You may want to add some leg support for the extension table.
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