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View Full Version : Ceramic glaze test - it's NOT cermark!



Dee Gallo
09-24-2009, 3:33 PM
Well, for all inquiring minds who want to know: I got some low fire ceramic overglaze and tested it on some coil stock. It just disappeared, obviously too low fire BUT! There was an interesting side effect.

At first I thought the glaze worked, since I saw some colors.... but then I realized it was only where there was no glaze painted. I did some further experiments and found that by manipulating the speed and power, I could get different colors (dark grey, blue, green, faded red).

It doesn't look great, but might be of some use to someone for a project. It might enhance an artsy photo or drawing. Take a look at the pix.

cheers, dee

Steve Clarkson
09-24-2009, 4:11 PM
Are you saying that different speed/power combinations with the same glaze created completely different colors?

Frank Corker
09-24-2009, 4:44 PM
Thats really a very interesting result that you have there. I think there has to be something available (outside of the the THERS and CERS) so this sort of experimentation is fantastic.

Dee Gallo
09-24-2009, 4:48 PM
Are you saying that different speed/power combinations with the same glaze created completely different colors?

Yes and no - I did not put any glaze on the coil stock to create these colors. The coil stock I used is beige, but whatever the coating is on there was removed by the laser and created the different colors. Maybe when they coat the metal they use layers of varying stuff?

I'm going to try some more tests tomorrow and see how much control I have over the colors for real. These were just solid black rectangles.

Stay tuned!

cheers, dee

Tim Wooldridge
09-24-2009, 5:17 PM
Sorry for making this my first post without an introduction. I have been doing laser engraving for 2.5 years now, and we have done quite a few pieces on porcelain and ceramic where we have used ceramic glaze as a substitute for expensive thermark. I have trial and error with several different resist materials. I get the best results with laser tape and ikonics laser resist. I will post some pictures of some finished pieces with detailed text and what not. The process is really easy, for putting, say, a green pine tree silhouette onto a beige porcelain tile.

We started out doing tile bullnosing in 2002, which is still our main business. We developed a glaze that retains its glassly, glossy nature while being able to fire it at 016, which is a temperate low enough not to break any type of ceramic and porcelain. Therefore, I have a greater advantage when it comes to knowledge of glazing, since I've been doing it for like 6 years. I'll try and help you guys out, as this is a far cheaper alternative to thermark, that can produce better results.

Dee Gallo
09-24-2009, 5:37 PM
Sorry for making this my first post without an introduction. I have been doing laser engraving for 2.5 years now, and we have done quite a few pieces on porcelain and ceramic where we have used ceramic glaze as a substitute for expensive thermark. I have trial and error with several different resist materials. I get the best results with laser tape and ikonics laser resist. I will post some pictures of some finished pieces with detailed text and what not. The process is really easy, for putting, say, a green pine tree silhouette onto a beige porcelain tile.

We started out doing tile bullnosing in 2002, which is still our main business. We developed a glaze that retains its glassly, glossy nature while being able to fire it at 016, which is a temperate low enough not to break any type of ceramic and porcelain. Therefore, I have a greater advantage when it comes to knowledge of glazing, since I've been doing it for like 6 years. I'll try and help you guys out, as this is a far cheaper alternative to thermark, that can produce better results.

:D YES PLEASE! This is a great breakthrough for us. My experiments were on metal, but a tile would have been my next series. You've saved me! :D

Now, we need details: type of glaze, application procedure, document details, laser settings, the whole shebang.

So, very nice to meet you, Tim, I hope we hear a lot from you from now on. I look forward to seeing your work posted here. This is exciting!

thanks, dee ... did I already say :D?

Tim Wooldridge
09-24-2009, 6:03 PM
Hehe well I'd be lying if I said I hadn't lurked here for over a year before making an account let alone posting! I've been waiting to spill the beans on quite a few things, including the process I've discovered to permanently etch black - among several colors - onto travertine and marble. I have put a glossy, black guiness logo onto a beige creme piece of marble. I'll have photos up as soon as I get my camera from my house.

I was thinking that I could even provide the formula to make the special gloss that allows us to fire as such a low temperature. That's if I (or we) don't feel like being greedy and charging for it. We paid $300 a compressed gallon batch of the stuff for years before the guy went out of business and decided to share the recipe! Takes about $20 to make the gallon we were paying $300 for!

Frank Corker
09-24-2009, 7:17 PM
Tim I am intrigued and I am certainly looking forward to seeing the photos! Bring it on.

Dan Hintz
09-24-2009, 8:34 PM
Tim, I'm sure we'd all love to hear what you've found.



Dee, I would have suggested against metal being your test substrate, at least as a first shot. The Cermark uses clay in the mix to act as a heat absorber, allowing the glaze itself to get hot enough to bond with the metal. In your test case, there's no clay in the mix, so most of your heat was lost to the metal itself (or reflected). Although Tim has already beaten me to the punch, as it were, I think you would have significantly different results if you used a clay-based substrate (tile, etc.).

Rodne Gold
09-24-2009, 11:21 PM
Hi all , check out this:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6238847.html
Seems in essence any compound you develop will be in conflict with the patent....

Darren Null
09-24-2009, 11:31 PM
Wouldn't worry about it. Cermark are sure to be sued first.

When I first started looking into lasers; there was a chap who was experimenting with different types of glazes, but he dropped off the map. Got quite a few colours out of various glazes, as I recall. I always wondered if it was the same thing behind that mysterious $5k full-colour process.


I was thinking that I could even provide the formula to make the special gloss that allows us to fire as such a low temperature.
Definitely interested there. Permanent, you say?

Rodne Gold
09-24-2009, 11:51 PM
I think that IS the cerdec/cermark/thermark patent??

Darren Null
09-25-2009, 12:36 AM
You could be right. Mind you, you're probably breaking a clause in one of the list of patents just by plugging your laser in.

John Noell
09-25-2009, 1:40 AM
Yep. Another link here (http://www.patentbuddy.com/Inventor/Patents/Novotny/Miroslav/4752307) mentions Cerdec in connection with that patent number. Patents can be funny animals. And the difference between a glaze for a ceramic and a Cermark "glaze" is ___??? A kiln used radiant energy (infrared radiation) to make the glaze stick to a ceramic item and a laser produces radiant energy (differing only in wavelength) to make the glaze stick. Many of the ingredients in the "glaze" are the same.

Rodne Gold
09-25-2009, 2:15 AM
I think this whole patent thing is somewhat rediculous - there is a patent for marking denim with a laser...what next - we gonna get sued for digging a hole with a spade....
PS I have discovered another way of marking , if you take the bright anodised aluminium trophy plates we import from Italy and laser thru masking tape , with enough power the mark goes a nice shade of brown...

Andrea Weissenseel
09-25-2009, 4:18 AM
Rodne, be sure to claim your patent for that ;)

John Barton
09-25-2009, 4:27 AM
A lot of patents are over broad and full of holes. And any inventor is allowed to reverse engineer a process.

I very much doubt that any person doing their own home brew version of marking using glazes is going to be sued or harassed.

Patents protect the commercial application of a specific application, not the idea. You cannot patent or protect the IDEA of using glazes to act as an agent to mark substrates using the laser. You an patent CERTAIN chemical compounds and thus prevent others from selling those compounds of using them in the course of producing goods for sale.

We have faced this sort of thing in the past on two separate occasions and both time we got the company making infringement claims to back down after we shot their patent full of holes.

Being granted a patent does not automatically make the patent valid in all claims. Patent examiners aren't running out to find out the state of the art in the industry and checking the claims. All they can really do is a cursory examination of prior patents and art and make sure there are no glaring conflicts.

So don't be afraid to share your techniques that you developed on your own.

Steve Clarkson
09-25-2009, 6:26 AM
Don't forget that the only reason Cermark and Thermark got together was to resolve the patent issue between them.

Dan Hintz
09-25-2009, 7:10 AM
I think this whole patent thing is somewhat rediculous - there is a patent for marking denim with a laser...what next - we gonna get sued for digging a hole with a spade....
You have no idea how true this is... I was discussing this exact topic with my SO last night over dinner as I've been contemplating becoming a patent examiner (not as exciting as my engineering work, but it would allow me to work from home and claim government bennies and retirement). I could write several pages on what's wrong with the system, and it wouldn't be just my opinion, it would be cold, hard fact as expressed by senior patent examiners, the head of the USPTO, and President Obama himself (though the President talks in the same way Reagan used to about patent office reform, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed).

As the system stands now, not only has "non-obviousness" been obfuscated as a requirement for a patent being granted, the junior examiners have found it's easier to deny every application that comes across their desk. If they grant one, the senior reviewer can turn around and deny it (and these "senior" guys are rarely even working in their own field of art, mind you)... if you get 10% of your grants overturned by "quality review", you get a permanent written ding in your record, which leads to lack of promotion. The examiners have found it's better (and more lucrative) to deny everything and fly under the radar, waiting for their year-end bonus and (hopefully) pay-scale increase. But not too, high... it turns out once you get beyond a certain pay grade, the bonus money drops significantly for each patent granted, so they're gaming the system by getting juuuust enough of a grade increase, but not go beyond a certain level (I believe making it to a grade 14 was a shot in the foot). Sad, but true.

Dee Gallo
09-25-2009, 10:36 AM
Here is the result of my next test on beige coilstock: you can control the color changes to a certain extent by adjusting the power on the fly. It would be easy to make the colors appear if you pre-set the laser for each color and printed on thing at a time. But I didn't :)

The 600 dpi seems to give the best color results, the 300 dpi the worst.

I doubt if this procedure will be useful to anyone unless they were making an art piece where the muted colors are wanted. Maybe a nice foggy landscape? Or a beach theme, shells and what-not. Might make a nice background for a sign or plaque in combination with vinyl lettering.

It is scrub-proof, I rubbed the heck out of it under water with a green scrubber and dish soap... nothing came off.

cheers, dee

- still want to see the ceramic glaze results from Tim -

Dan Hintz
09-25-2009, 10:57 AM
Sometimes "failed" experiments, or those that use incorrect initial assumptions, lead to some very happy results. True, the colors are muted, but it's a very unique effect, and certainly different than I would have expected. I'm curious to see what kind of result you'll get when you switch to using a piece of porcelain tile... I expect the color to remain a little more true (and vivid).

Doug Griffith
09-25-2009, 11:13 AM
Hi all , check out this:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6238847.html
Seems in essence any compound you develop will be in conflict with the patent....

For those who like to read this stuff, here's a link to the USPTO. There is also an image. I always go directly to the source and avoid all the watered down pay-for patent sites. They get their info from here anyways.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect2=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PALL&RefSrch=yes&Query=PN%2F6238847

Dee Gallo
09-25-2009, 12:04 PM
Sometimes "failed" experiments, or those that use incorrect initial assumptions, lead to some very happy results. True, the colors are muted, but it's a very unique effect, and certainly different than I would have expected. I'm curious to see what kind of result you'll get when you switch to using a piece of porcelain tile... I expect the color to remain a little more true (and vivid).

Nope, I just tried a white HD tile and it did mark the tile, but not with color, just gray. It might be the overglaze is not a good choice of glaze, so I will wait for Tim's explanation before going any further.

:confused: dee

Darren Null
09-25-2009, 1:38 PM
It was good. We now (as a board) own a faint red.. Now we just have to find vibrant cyan, magenta, yellow and black and we're a multinational corporation.

Dan Hintz
09-25-2009, 2:18 PM
Dee, meant to ask and it's not readily apparent from your posts... was the glaze just a clear overcoat, or was it a solid color, like black? Was it a low fire or very low fire?

Martin Boekers
09-25-2009, 2:26 PM
Tim,

Are you actually lasering the tiles are making the mask and the firing them?

Thanks,

Marty

Tim Wooldridge
09-25-2009, 2:43 PM
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/2658/30204482.jpg
Glazed Black fine font on beige Porcelain


http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/6365/42495322.jpg
12x12 Ceramic tile with black glazed elk silhouette

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2261/16319383.jpg
12x12 white marble tile with permanent black guiness logo
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9660/57418138.jpg
Beige porcelain with green tree silhouettes
http://img2.imageshack.us/img2/8568/58178195.jpg

12x12 biege marble tile with black bear

Dan Hintz
09-25-2009, 2:50 PM
Okay, I have a few glazes on order to try out next weekend. Me and my machine already have a date with some bottles this weekend (and I'm not saying if I plan on personally emptying them before engraving :p). I will get to the bottom of this, one way or the other... it has sufficiently raised my engineering hackles.

Dan Hintz
09-25-2009, 2:50 PM
Glazed Black fine font on beige Porcelain

12x12 Ceramic tile with black glazed elk silhouette

12x12 white marble tile with permanent black guiness logo

Beige porcelain with green tree silhouettes

12x12 biege marble tile with black bear
Now you're just being a tease... :cool:

Darren Null
09-25-2009, 2:57 PM
You have indeed put your money where your mouth is. I salute your impeccable dress an can I have a recipe please?

Steve Rozwood
09-25-2009, 3:07 PM
Hello Dee, I'm glad to see that you are experimenting with your laser as are other members of this forum. That's a good thing and no one wants to discourage that. I do wish to clarify a few things about this thread. First, what Dee did was not the CerMark/Thermark process and she did not use any materials to bond the the surface. For example you can obtain many different colors on titanium with a laser and you can also get some color change with stainless steel. The problem is controlling the color to make patterns, etc. If anyone thinks this is easy then try to get a nice red mark on stainless steel using any process.

Second, a few of you have mentioned patents. we do not think that patents issues should be taken lightly.We have spend significant time, money and energy developing laser bonding materials and we have a few patents. The patents are cross licensed with Thermark based on an agreement we made a few years ago. These patents not only cover the materials themselves but also cover the method of marking with the materials. This means that a person can't make their own materials because they are patent protected. A person also can't practice the method with their own materials because that is also protected by the patents. When you buy our products, you are buying a license to use that bottle and method to make laser markings.

Although we do have patent protection we also have solid products that have been thoroughly tested and are backed by experienced customer and technical service reps ready to solve any problem that you the customer may encounter. We believe that we provide a quality product at a resonable price that is back by warranties and thousands of satisfied customers.

We would be happy to respond directly to any of your questions or concerns.

Dee Gallo
09-25-2009, 3:27 PM
Beautiful Tim! Now, where are the gritty details? Settings, type of glaze, application rate? If you don't want to share your glaze formula for free, can we PM you for a price?

Inquiring minds want to know!

Steve Rozwood
09-25-2009, 3:35 PM
Hello Dee, I'm glad to see that you are experimenting with your laser as are other members of this forum. That's a good thing and no one wants to discourage that. I do wish to clarify a few things about this thread. First, what Dee did was not the CerMark/Thermark process and she did not use any materials to bond the the surface. For example you can obtain many different colors on titanium with a laser and you can also get some color change with stainless steel. The problem is controlling the color to make patterns, etc. If anyone thinks this is easy then try to get a nice red mark on stainless steel using any process.

Second, a few of you have mentioned patents. we do not think that patents issues should be taken lightly.We have spend significant time, money and energy developing laser bonding materials and we have a few patents. The patents are cross licensed with Thermark based on an agreement we made a few years ago. These patents not only cover the materials themselves but also cover the method of marking with the materials. This means that a person can't make their own materials because they are patent protected. A person also can't practice the method with their own materials because that is also protected by the patents. When you buy our products, you are buying a license to use that bottle and method to make laser markings.

Although we do have patent protection we also have solid products that have been thoroughly tested and are backed by experienced customer and technical service reps ready to solve any problem that you the customer may encounter. We believe that we provide a quality product at a resonable price that is back by warranties and thousands of satisfied customers.

We would be happy to respond directly to any of your questions or concerns.

Dee Gallo
09-25-2009, 3:35 PM
Dee, meant to ask and it's not readily apparent from your posts... was the glaze just a clear overcoat, or was it a solid color, like black? Was it a low fire or very low fire?

Dan, it was a ceramic overglaze made by Amaco, the ceramic company. It comes in a watercolor-looking set and you mix water with it. I made it fairly thick, about the consistency of milky-cream. Being an overglaze, I suppose it's mostly glass. It is a low-fire glaze, only cone 6 which is as low as it gets I think.

Aftger examining the tile results again, it looks like I might have had more success with a thicker coat. I also see that it did deposit some color, however faint in the thicker areas. I put it on with a brush and none too carefully, to get some variation in thickness. The colors I used were blue, red, green, orange, yellow, brown and black.

So I'm off to get some regular glaze colors...

cheers, dee

Martin Boekers
09-25-2009, 3:40 PM
Steve, I have a jar of Cermark I bought a few years back for ceramic (LMC-6044 lot #121306sw Cermark Ferro) I believe I paid $80-$100 dollars for it and never could get it to work.

So when a new formula came out I decided againt it. (pretty expensive to test with it after previous failure)

I know that copyrights, trademarks and patents are legal and shouldn't be taken lightly.

I believe though that someone can improve upon a patent and apply as an improvement.

If you follow this forum I'm sure you have read concerns over patents and
how they can be applied on what we do. Maybe as a patent holder you can help us on understanding the process a little better.

As for as I understand there is a company that holds patent rights for lasering clay bricks. I believe one of our members had recieved a cease and desist letter on engraving bricks.

If it's possible to have a patent to engrave upon bricks, what about wood, acrylic, glass, ceramic etc. We would all be out of business if this was allowed.

In Cermark's case we are not allowed even experimentation with using other materials to coat tile or metal to burn with our laser?

How can some processes be patentable and not others? Take grilling ground beef for an example. Wouldn't it be great to have a patent on that process and get royalties from every burger joint in the world!:D

Help us on understanding the process a bit better!

Thanks,

Marty

Dee Gallo
09-25-2009, 3:48 PM
Steve,

Thanks for chiming in here - please be aware that we all agree that Cermark/Thermark is an excellent product and we all love it. However, this all started because I could not find a small sample pack to play with.

You (the company) must realize that many of us are playing around with small quantities and personal projects. There is no way that anyone can compete with the quality and consistency of C-Thermark.

That said, you will always find us out here playing around with various materials and trying new things just to see what we can do or if something CAN be done. I don't think any of us represents a factory level production house.

So, if the C-Thermark people want to do us laser-folk a favor, they should make it more affordable to test out the products. We are addictive people and will spend money to try something if it's within reason. Otherwise, we just sit here and read other people's posts and wish.

As I mentioned in my first post, the cost of trying 5 colors at $60 each is just too much for the average Creeker. And who needs that much stuff unless you have a real job to use it on? And who is going to develop a market without ever trying the materials out? It's a vicious cycle.

Thanks for listening, dee

Tim Wooldridge
09-25-2009, 4:07 PM
All I have to say is. My glazing process produces better results then cermark, that seem more permanent. Also I'm not infringing on anyones copyright with my process. :D

Steve Rozwood
09-25-2009, 4:07 PM
Hi Martin, I'm sorry about your bad experience. We would be glad to send you replacement material and help you in whatever way we can. Just let me know.

As far as who gets a patent, that's entirely up to the patent office. I do not know the entire history about the brick patent but you are correct, that company used to actively enforce their patent but it may have expired by now. This is for vitrification of the brick by a laser and I believe it was a YAG laser. How did they get it, apparently they thought of it first or at least filed the first patent and it was granted. They lucked out. The same could be said about the bluejeans patent.

Much of this has to do with obviousness of an invention. The inventors must show that their innovations are new, useful and nonobvious to someone "Skilled in the arts".

Steve Clarkson
09-25-2009, 4:14 PM
This means that a person can't make their own materials because they are patent protected. A person also can't practice the method with their own materials because that is also protected by the patents.

I find that very hard to believe.

Tim, hope you'll share your formula before the Ferro attorneys finish their letter to you this afternoon.

Belinda Barfield
09-25-2009, 4:14 PM
Mr. Rozwood,

As have others here on the Engraver's Forum, I have tried several of your products. I love the tape. I have also used the aerosol can variety with good results. The first can I purchased was still half full when the propellant went dead. I switched to the "mix it yourself" variety and have yet to achieve acceptable results with it. Your customer service reps have been most helpful, and I chalk the lack of acceptable results up to my inability to work with that particular product.

Having said all of that, I agree with Dee. Laser heads by nature have inquisitive minds, that's the reason a cat won't stay in the same room with any of us, and our cheese sandwiches have unique toast marks. Most of the people here just want to have options available to them that are cost effective, and if that is something we can develop on our own I doubt any of us has the ability to mass market it and offer your company any sort of competition.

Tim Wooldridge
09-25-2009, 4:54 PM
Well I don't plan on sharing every pain staking detail but I can definitally get you guys in the right direction. The gloss that we use to fire the glaze at a much lower temperature is actually patented, but I have talked to my boss (my boss is my dad) and we're thinking about selling batches of it, or the formula itself.

Personally, if it was my business and not my dads, I would just share the whole process with you guys which I am pretty much already doing. I haven't gone into details about myself but I'm 21 years old, and I've been doing computers since I was 5. My dad started this business in 2002 and I've been working with him since 15. He decided to get the laser system in 2006, and it's been an adventure/struggle with the laser since then. I love the machine and what I can do with it, but it has been difficult to make real money with it. I've done hundreds of orders, but I still can't even come close to the money we make with the tile bullnosing / cutting / slab bullnosing. We are the only tile bullnosing shop in southern colorado, so that is by far our bread and butter.

Tim Wooldridge
09-25-2009, 4:59 PM
Tim,

Are you actually lasering the tiles are making the mask and the firing them?

Thanks,

Marty


For the porcelain and ceramics, yes. I fire them for 3.5 hours at 016 with our special gloss.

For the marbles and travertines..no. I use a permanent cemetary grade paint.

Martin Boekers
09-25-2009, 5:21 PM
Tim

Thanks for the info!

I think some of us here thought you were coating the tiles then lasering them to set the glaze.

Most of the tile work I do is decorative so the durability is not an issue.

I moved away from dye sub becuase of cost and color correction issues.

I am doing most of the work now on store tiles with CLT (color laser transfer) Clients have been very pleased and cost cheap (Reasonable;))
and time frames are quick.

Iv'e only started marketing the tiles for a couple months, but it has been the best start up of a new product that I have experienced in my shop.
The plus is no new equipment cost!!!

Good to have you on board!


Marty

Dee Gallo
09-25-2009, 6:01 PM
Wow Tim, I guess I have to say I'm disappointed. I misunderstood and thought you were setting the glaze with your laser, not just making the mask with it.

Oh well, back to my secret lab...

cheers, dee

Bob Savage
09-25-2009, 6:25 PM
Hi Martin,


Tim

Thanks for the info!

I think some of us here thought you were coating the tiles then lasering them to set the glaze.

That's what I thought too.




I am doing most of the work now on store tiles with CLT (color laser transfer) Clients have been very pleased and cost cheap (Reasonable;))
and time frames are quick.

What is CLT? I only found info on this for use with laser printers. Are you using a printer?

Darren Null
09-25-2009, 8:26 PM
This means that a person can't make their own materials because they are patent protected. A person also can't practice the method with their own materials because that is also protected by the patents.

Those would be US patents, yes? Because I have to say that if I feel like mixing up some random goop and lasering it, then I will do it. The US patent system and intellectual property stuff is bollixing up things for the entire species. Time was a patent gave the inventor 15 years to make good on their invention; then it got turned over to the general populace. That was reasonable and just. Now it's -what?- 95 years past the inventor's death or some such; thanks to bloody Disney bribing congress to raise the bar every time mickey mouse looks like going into the commons.

So. Much as I appreciate your position; the fact that somebody -either associated with your company or subsequently bought out by them- did some original thinking doesn't give you the moral right to tell me what I can or cannot laser with my own machine on my own property. Yes, you've devoted time and money producing related products. That puts you ahead of the game, it doesn't buy you the right to stop everybody else from playing.

"Aha!", I expect you to say, "they are worldwide patents". And the answer is the same. Fold it into sharp corners and use it as a chair. If I were to look at permanent marking materials, glazes would be an obvious place to start. I'm half inclined to give it a go now too...

For the record, I've never seen a cermark product.
Also, for the record, you probably picked on the exact wrong group of people to pre-threaten.

Much of this has to do with obviousness of an invention. The inventors must show that their innovations are new, useful and nonobvious to someone "Skilled in the arts".
You know you've just blown yourself out of the water there, don't you?

Dan Hintz
09-25-2009, 10:30 PM
For the porcelain and ceramics, yes. I fire them for 3.5 hours at 016 with our special gloss.

For the marbles and travertines..no. I use a permanent cemetary grade paint.
Well, that was a complete letdown :( Your posts suggested you had a multi-color glaze that was a direct (and even improved) replacement for Cermark/Thermark, but what you have listed is no different than what any of us have been doing since the beginning... laser-cut masks and paint.




I have a long post to make about Steve R's comments, but seeing as how it's past 10 at the moment, I'll reserve my major comments until later this weekend. Suffice it to say for now, a patent does NOT prevent someone from making their own product, and I sincerely hope you weren't suggesting such a thing. A patent is a legal tool that allows one entity to show prior ownership of an idea/invention with the intent to seek restitution (in whatever form that restitution takes). It does not prevent an individual from recreating the invention of his own accord, as that would prevent further innovation... only one claimed item needs to be worked around to make the patent worth little more than the paper it was printed on, and a new patent can be applied for as an improvement upon the old. Such an improvement may be created through our work here, particularly with such a large pool of potential ideas and "experimental labs" around the country. Should that innovation happen here, it becomes public domain, and the original patent has essentially been worked around... something any company should be concerned about, no doubt...



EDIT: Darren, we're of the same mind... that said, you may want to wait until I've written my full comments this weekend before spinning any of this up. There should be some interesting reading if my mind is working after tomorrow's festivities are over...

Allen Isakson
09-26-2009, 4:41 AM
:eek: this thread is a joke. I agree with darren...Oh i just grilled a burger..who do i send the royalties too.

Darren Null
09-26-2009, 8:40 AM
Diplomacy? I've heard of it.

I do have issues with the US patent system because it's all getting a bit silly. Not only that, but the US system is spreading it's noxious tentacles throughout the rest of the globe to the detriment of all but a greedy few who much of the time didn't have any input into the creation of the idea in the first place.

Time was -and any engineer will remember this fondly- you could buy books of linkages and engineering innovations as they entered the commons. Being 15 years out of date wasn't a problem, because there was often a tweak or method that was just the thing that you needed for your own project. No more alas. And the same across pretty well every field of human endeavour- a 15-year-old innovation could be recycled as part of whatever you're working on now...so the entire race moves forward with a 15-year lag to give the innovators a little space to manoever. That was a good system and it worked for everyone. Now, of course, innovation is stifled; the species as a whole loses out and you get parasitical companies who do nothing but sue people for one breach or another for one of the patents in their patent farm. Or -and here things go beyond silly- outfits like the RIAA where words fail me:......

Woman shares 24 tracks- fined $1.92M
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/19/copyright_victory_rich/

...versus, for example...

Company "trading with the enemy"- fined $14,500
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/18/platte_river_associates_sentenced_for_trading_with _enemy/

Here in Spain, we can currently download what music and films we like, because there is a tax on recordable media that gets fed back to the various artists' associations. That'll change, I expect, but it works quite well for the moment.

Specifically getting back to lasering patents- Cermark. It's obvious. You need a low-temperature glass that you can cure at laser temperatures, plus chemicals in the solution that will reflect vivid colours when subjected to that same treatment. This is obvious to anybody "skilled in the arts"; or indeed anybody who has owned a laser for more than 2 weeks. What those chemicals are; is purely a matter of experimentation...starting with commonly-available glazes and then experimenting with various additives. You need it weatherproof; transparent (to let your colours show); able to stick really well to a surface and proof against staining and cleaning. Pretty well has to be a glaze. I have never seen cermark- it's overpriced for what it is plus from user accounts on here, the results are variable. I'd rather spend my $100 on a sample of every glaze in the shop plus a few compounds that burn black and see what works. I'd expect to end up with a mixture that wouldn't be quite as good as cermark; but that I could buy shedloads of locally for a reasonable price. Claiming that a patent would stop me performing this sort of experimentation is risable.

I regularly burn denim and other dark cotton clothing in my laser...have done since I bought it and have no intention of stopping anytime soon. I haven't done bricks in a while, but I'm going to do a couple now, just on general principles.

Here's a clue: if it's cylindrical/has at least one flat surface; is not too reflective; is nonconductive; and doesn't run away (quickly enough) - it goes in the laser.

Anyone who feels that they have a right to stop me using my laser machine for precisely what I feel like using it for at any given moment is cordially invited to bring it on.

@Tim- Thanks for sharing. Nice work. Please excuse the lukewarm reception, but a thermark-alike arouses a great deal of interest. And speaking personally, I never knew there was such a thing as cemetary-grade paint.

Rodne Gold
09-26-2009, 9:30 AM
Google "monster audio lawsuit"

Bob Savage
09-26-2009, 10:47 AM
Google "monster audio lawsuit"

Yep, that one is a a doozie. The RCA connector response is a good one.

I have a million and one thoughts on intellectual property rights. I also have a million and one thoughts on the failure of many in big business to employ common sense, "evenly keeled" ethics, and the filthy use of corp attorney bullying tactics on those unable or unwilling to defend themselves.

Michael Hunter
09-26-2009, 10:56 AM
The fact that the Cermark guy popped up here to attempt to protect his patent is a useful warning that patents ***are*** policied by their holders and one should be a bit careful about postings which may contravene an idea or process "owned" by someone else.

Maybe I'm paranoid, but it could be that you end up on someone's "watch" list and as soon as you start to make any money at it then bingo! a lawyer's letter arrives.


Incidentally, where was the Cermark guy when the chap was struggling to mark knife blades? Great customer service there!

Bob Savage
09-26-2009, 11:02 AM
Maybe I'm paranoid, but it could be that you end up on someone's "watch" list and as soon as you start to make any money at it then bingo! a lawyer's letter arrives.



I don't think you're paranoid, I think you understand the reality of the mess we're in here in the U.S. right now. Back to the bullying tactics...

By the way, many/most of the musical instrument based forums I use require MFG reps to identify themselves. Is that not so here? I noticed the Cermark guy didn't have anything in his sig. Just curious.

Bob Savage
09-26-2009, 11:50 AM
If anybody has too much time on their hands, the Blue Jeans Cable response to Monster Cable is an enjoyable read from the perspective of "the little guy." I'll try to break the link so as not to violate the board TOS.

WWW DOT audioholics.com/news/industry-news/blue-jeans-strikes-back

Stephen Kane
09-26-2009, 12:38 PM
Well done Dee!
Again you have dipped your toes in interesting waters, and given them a good stir. I for one will start experimenting along those lines when I get an opportunity.
I came across this interesting link http://www.dicklehman.com/html/writing/laser.html and it looks like Dick has done some relevant work some years ago with various glazes. If possible I will try to get my hands on some of the glazes he mentions.

Stephen

Martin Boekers
09-26-2009, 1:07 PM
Hi Martin,



That's what I thought too.



What is CLT? I only found info on this for use with laser printers. Are you using a printer?

Hi Bob,

CLT is Color laser transfer. I use a Xerox Phaser but many "toner" based printers will work. I use a transfer sheet from Magic Touch. I've tried others but this seems to be the most consistant. I use the "Hard Surface material only as I haven't had much luck with the Textile version. This works on many substrates as well as tile, wood, acrylic, glass, mat board, water (just kidding about water!:p) This material is versatile and fairly durable. I have done mugs and its fine as long as they are hand washed.

Must of us here already have a heat press and a laser printer so it's a cheap investment for transfer sheets. I buy tiles at Home Depot $.15 ea get 2 transfer on an 8.5x11 sheet $.60 a sheet approx. The press temp & pressure isn't as critical as dye sub. 3 min in the press at 400 degrees (tile) and I have 2 tiles finished for under $1;)! For extra durablitity they can be heated in an oven for a few minutes (I've only done this for mugs as they need to be washed.)

There are many items available to mount these to as well as adding them to a plaque or just using an easle back for standing alone.. This is a great addition for a shop esp with the holiday season coming up (GIFTS!)

One of the main keys to this process you don't need to have a coated product such as dye sub. So uses are only limited by your imagination and not "product lines)

I hope this helps,

Marty

Martin Boekers
09-26-2009, 1:42 PM
Hello Dee, I'm glad to see that you are experimenting with your laser as are other members of this forum. That's a good thing and no one wants to discourage that. I do wish to clarify a few things about this thread. First, what Dee did was not the CerMark/Thermark process and she did not use any materials to bond the the surface. For example you can obtain many different colors on titanium with a laser and you can also get some color change with stainless steel. The problem is controlling the color to make patterns, etc. If anyone thinks this is easy then try to get a nice red mark on stainless steel using any process.

Second, a few of you have mentioned patents. we do not think that patents issues should be taken lightly.We have spend significant time, money and energy developing laser bonding materials and we have a few patents. The patents are cross licensed with Thermark based on an agreement we made a few years ago. These patents not only cover the materials themselves but also cover the method of marking with the materials. This means that a person can't make their own materials because they are patent protected. A person also can't practice the method with their own materials because that is also protected by the patents. When you buy our products, you are buying a license to use that bottle and method to make laser markings.

Although we do have patent protection we also have solid products that have been thoroughly tested and are backed by experienced customer and technical service reps ready to solve any problem that you the customer may encounter. We believe that we provide a quality product at a resonable price that is back by warranties and thousands of satisfied customers.

We would be happy to respond directly to any of your questions or concerns.

Steve just a few thoughts here....

Be careful about the "guns blarring" responses

See Atomic Art posts and you'll get an idea;)

I sure you can see from posts that for the large part "Creekers" have had good experience with your products.

Like others it concerns me that you haven't stepped up to address and help those who needed additional insites on useing your product. Then you do come forward to warn us of patent infringement:eek:.

What would have been nice to see would have been a response maybe addressing what many of use are doing now. EXPERIMENTING!

All we are trying to do is find a product that is easy to use with consitantly high quality and affordable. It's much easier and cheaper (in the long run)
to buy an existing product then trying to re-invent the wheel.

If you look through posts of the past you can see we haven't been able to duplicate Cermark. (good spot for you to explain years of research and difficulty in creating this product. Pat yourself on the back a bit).

When some one steps forward (Thanks Dee!:)) and expresses that there is a need to have a "sample pack" of different colors available so we can at least try them. (with out investing $100's) Hmmmm maybe you should have said Dee, what a great idea, let me put this before management and see what I can do. This is not only sales but customer service!;)

A couple hundred dollars can make or break many of our month's at our shops. So pricing esp on new products for us without any guaranteed sales is tough!

Just think if you came on board with a color sample set, a black sample of tape, powder and a smaller can at a affordable price you may bring many on board to you product line (NEW USERS!) Isn't that what helps a business grow?


We are not a bad group of "patent busters":o It's not easy to survive in this business. We survive and thrive on the products our vendors supply, but it is a two way street!..


Just some thoughts


Marty

Dee Gallo
09-26-2009, 2:02 PM
Well said, Marty! And might I add that another way for Ferro to make us love them would be to donate a sample pack to the FreeStuff Giveaway offer, and just sit back to see exactly how many potential customers are here to entice or repel by the company's attitude.

:) dee

Martin Boekers
09-26-2009, 2:19 PM
Thanks, Dee!

I find it really amazing that only a few vendors step up to try to help us when we have problems.

Everyone here knows those people and appreciate them in trying to resolve issues.

Forums such as this are great ways for vendors to promote themselves (within the Creek's guidelines of course:))


You are absolutely right on about a donation to the giveaway. What a great marketing tool that is if used correctly.

I hope vendors are taking heed!!

When it comes to insites and great ideas we know we can count on you:)


Marty

Bob Savage
09-26-2009, 2:28 PM
I really love this place, rather, the incredibly insightful, helpful and intelligent individuals that frequent this forum. That alone makes me want a laser... even more. :)

Your CLT post was certainly hepful, Martin. Thank you very much.

Steve Clarkson
09-26-2009, 2:35 PM
CLT is Color laser transfer.

Hey Marty, how durable is CLT on acrylic? Will it scratch off easily? How true are the color transfers?

Dee Gallo
09-26-2009, 3:00 PM
I find it really amazing that only a few vendors step up to try to help us when we have problems.

I believe that's what happens when any company has a monopoly.. they take their customers and their position for granted, then cry foul if someone else comes up with a better or different mousetrap.

Smart manufacturers will watch and listen to their customers, meet their needs before they know they have a need and keep it up.

I also believe that it has been proven that this country has a track record for inventing new and better ways to do or make pretty much everything, which is then copied by every other country. It's our patriotic duty to experiment and invent!

:) dee

Steve Clarkson
09-26-2009, 3:10 PM
It's our patriotic duty to experiment and invent!

:) dee

Experimenting is a violation of somebody's patent!!!!!


(I wonder if they pay a finder's fee to whistleblowers............)

Tim Wooldridge
09-26-2009, 3:11 PM
Sorry for leading you guys into thinking I had developed something just like cermark. I think it is within reach though, right now it is easiest for me just to use the process I'm using since we already have the kilns. I still keep some cermark and thermark around but personally don't like the stuff that much and hate the price. Lets work together and develop a glaze-like solution that can be sprayed easier (like the glaze I use), that can mark permanently onto the surface with the laser. let's do it!

Martin Boekers
09-26-2009, 3:55 PM
Hey Marty, how durable is CLT on acrylic? Will it scratch off easily? How true are the color transfers?


Steve I find these to be pretty durable, yes if you scrub them hard with a scotch pad some may scratch off. For plaques and gifts They should be fine.

as far as color goes much easier to handle than dye sub since the are a solid plastic based toner there isn't the chance of intermingling of the inks that turn to gas in dye sub.

What you see on the print out is what you get, with qualifiy that toner is transparent so the base shows through. So if you put it to wood you will see the color of the wood and graining come through.

I have to say I do love this stuff as it's easy to use.

Here is another website you might want to check out for laser transfer (I haven't had much luck with the in jet material)

http://www.papilio.com/


I use the water slide decal material all the time for esp for candles at events

I have done this on acrylic, there is a bigger learning curve than with tile, mainly working out pressure, time & temp. You do have to cover the whole acrylic with the transfer sheet (not necessarly with image just the sheet) as you may get a slight marking from the edge of the paper on the acrylic.

Remember toner is transparent so you can see through this. Similar to Crystal Magic. I have transfer to the reverse side of acrylic the sprayed it with Fusion Esp the silver and it came out cool and ingravable.

Hope this helps,

Marty

Martin Boekers
09-26-2009, 4:00 PM
Steve,

Somethings I agree we need to experiment with some things to come up with better ways.

But make us all a promise PLEASE!!!
Don't experiment with Hydrogen generators for flame polishers!:D

Your too important to this forum!


Marty

Steve Rozwood
09-28-2009, 11:43 AM
I am a single Technical Service Representative who is interested on helping out customers that may have problems with using our products. I only visit SawMillCreek when I have some free time at work to spare, a lot of times it’s during my lunch break. Yes, we take our patents seriously, if I didn’t, that would be like me saying that I don’t take my job seriously. So I felt I had to chime in.

Belinda, if you need help with using our products then I would be glad to help. Please contact me directly at 1-724-223-5990.

Michael Hunter, I missed the thread that had one of our customers having a problem getting a mark on knife blades. If you can show me where thread is I will also like to help.

Maybe I can get a moderator to send me an e-mail when ever there is a problem with our product.

Stephen Rozwood
724-223-5990

Francisco perez
09-28-2009, 1:06 PM
Very interesting thread people!! I been experimenting with cermark, its ok product but not to happy with it,the results and the price, Tim i would sooo buy a batch of that glaze!!! Like asap!!!!

Dan Hintz
09-28-2009, 1:36 PM
Tim i would sooo buy a batch of that glaze!!! Like asap!!!!
Francisco, you may want to read through Tim's replies again... he does not have a Thermark-competing glaze for use with the laser. His glaze must be kiln-fired.



My sample glazes will arrive the first few days in October (man they take a long time to ship). The price was right, though, at only $35 shipped for 7 or so different colors for me to play with.

Michael Hunter
09-28-2009, 2:03 PM
Hello Steve Rozwood

The thread about the knife blade was entitled "Knife Blade Problem" and the last post was 25th September (sorry, I don't know how to link to it) - it is not clear whether the problem was solved or not.

It is really good when a manufacturer takes enough interest in their customers that they spend time on these forums - thanks for popping up!

Steve Rozwood
09-28-2009, 2:57 PM
Thanks Micheal, I found it and did my best to help him.

Tim Wooldridge
09-28-2009, 3:28 PM
Yep, my glazes need to be fired. I am working on something that works like cermark, however, but the pictures of the products I linked were using a glaze process.

Dan Hintz
09-28-2009, 3:38 PM
I'm dusting off my inorganic and organic chemistry books... been a while since I've looked at those bad boys. It hasn't been tested yet (still waiting on my glazes to arrive), but I already have at least one way in mind to increase the richness of the colors (I need to dig up my old bookmarks for chemical supply houses, as well, it appears). The fun part? Determining what color change will happen when an element is heated at varying temps (black Cermark is yellow from the bottle, for example).

Darren Null
09-28-2009, 3:46 PM
Anyone know offhand what sort of temperatures we can hit with lasers?

Francisco perez
09-28-2009, 4:04 PM
but would it work with the heat of the laser??

Jack Harper
09-28-2009, 4:24 PM
I do not know if this information will help those experimenting, but here is my understanding of the current Atomic Art products. If I am understanding this correctly, the Atomic Arts folks are currently licensing and/or buying the "BASE" glaze from Ferro. From here they are adding their own pigments to gain a higher level of color than what Ferro was able to provide from the original colors for stone/glass and so forth. This would further support that the key is all in the base glaze, to bond the pigments of choice. But like I said, this is all just my interpretation and is in no way meant to be a statement of fact.

Martin Boekers
09-28-2009, 5:40 PM
Just a thought if anyone has a local glass studio close it might be worth a visit to See how they achieve colors at what temperature and density of the "frit" they use for different applications.

Also Blown glass places are pretty cool to visit!


Marty

Frank Corker
09-28-2009, 9:12 PM
I was under the impression (although I don't do impressions...it's a figure of speech) that this stuff was actually photo sensitive. Possibly something like silver nitrate in the mix might be useful.

Darren Null
09-28-2009, 10:04 PM
The first problem is getting a clear glaze that will melt at the sort of temperatures we can hit with our lasers.

I've found this place that has a temperature guide, plus software (with a free trial) that helps analyse glaze recipes.
http://digitalfire.com/4sight/temperatures/index.html

Also these:
http://seco.glendale.edu/ceramics/glazecomposition.html
http://www.potters.org/subject70906.htm

Norberto Coutinho
09-28-2009, 10:16 PM
I was under the impression (although I don't do impressions...it's a figure of speech) that this stuff was actually photo sensitive. Possibly something like silver nitrate in the mix might be useful.



Hello ... my name is Norberto and I live in Belo Horizonte, Brazil. My english is not good, so do a effort do understand me:). Can I put here a link from another website ( cnczone.com ) here? This will not be against this forum rules? I think that link will help a little with this post. Again, sorry for my bad english.
Norberto

Darren Null
09-28-2009, 10:48 PM
Heves, eh?

http://netic.com.ar/laserinks/products.htm
or
http://www.tecnocorte.net/quimico.htm
in my case. Prices asked. Will report back with results.

John Barton
09-29-2009, 12:41 AM
there was a system that could lay down the compound right before the laser fired?

So if you had a tank hooked up to to a vat of colors like a printer and the system would know just which mix to make to spray on just before the laser heated it up then it should work pretty much like a printer.

If you're up for inventing that I'd also like one of those cool new 3-d modelers as well. Or just skip both of them and send me the replicator from Star Trek.

:-)

Dan Hintz
09-29-2009, 8:16 AM
Aw, Jack... you had to go and ruin one of my talking points about why this isn't as difficult a job as people first make it out to be ;) Granted, it's not something the complete layman would be able to accomplish without a boatload of research, but someone a bit more skilled in the art (or knows where to look and has a background in materials, chemistry, etc. <cough cough> ) won't have nearly the same difficulties.




Martin, agreed! Glass houses are slick, and I enjoyed watching them make it at the local Renaissance Festival earlier this month.



Norberto, direct links to other forums are not allowed by forum rules, but it may be acceptable to post a link with the "www." removed so it is not a hotlink. I'm curious to know what you found, as i haven't logged onto CNCZone for several months now.

Norberto Coutinho
09-29-2009, 8:53 AM
Well, it is easy to find .... do a searche for Brasso in that site... in the Laser Engraver and Cut Machine area you can find a member named Huahahahahaha .... read the posts named "Need to engrave Stainless Tubing...Sample pic in post" and "Marking Stainless using CO2 laser 60 Watt". I hope that this will help you and anothers members here. Norberto

Darren Null
09-29-2009, 9:04 AM
Brasso & clay
Brasso & ferric chloride

I wasn't that impressed with the pics. Yep, there was a mark on stainless steel. I want a nice mark though. Dead fussy, me.

Thanks for the info Norberto

Dan Hintz
09-29-2009, 9:31 AM
Okay, yeah, I've seen those posts before... I wasn't overly impressed, either, but at least he's thinking outside of the box.

James Stokes
09-29-2009, 1:43 PM
I had a customer tell me for the paint changing colors on cars a glass powder was added in with the paint and that was what caused the colors to change. He told me he would bring me some to play with but never did.

Dan Hintz
09-29-2009, 2:19 PM
I had a customer tell me for the paint changing colors on cars a glass powder was added in with the paint and that was what caused the colors to change.
It's not cheap, but you can pick some up without any problem... House Of Kolors has been making automotive paints for quite a number of years and is probably the best known in the industry for custom work.
http://www.houseofkolor.com/
Look for their Kameleon Opals, Kameleon Pearls, and Kolor shift Flakes... the less expensive types go for around $40 for 3 ounces, with the more expensive types going for upwards of $300.

Other people make similar stuff, and for cheaper, but the quality of HOK's stuff is worth it when you're doing an important job.

Tim Wooldridge
09-29-2009, 3:44 PM
Yea I have no idea about the marks on metal but will talk to a few smart friends I know.

Alexander Stein
09-29-2009, 6:05 PM
I am not sure a Glass blowing shop will guide you in the right direction for understanding the effects of colored glass frits on a different substrate. Glass frits come in a variety of sizes divided by sifting the glass through different sized screens.

A glass artist wanting a speckled pattern on their piece will roll their red-hot glass blob on a table with chunkier frit randomly scattered about. After the artist gather's the cold frit with the hot glass they tend to re-melt the cold frit into the hot glob leaving you with scattered dots throughout.

If you were looking to completely coat the "hot-blob" with a solid color, a much finer frit is used, much like a powder, and the gathering process from hot blob to frit is repeated untill you reach your desired color.

That being said, glass-frit will only bond to glass permently when the temp of the frit matches the temp of the "blob" which is fusing the two glass types into one.

If I were to try to bond glass frit to a substrate I would be concerned about the temp of the substrate. if the substrate is cold, and the glass frit is hot, then the frit will not adhere...


just a thought...

Dan Hintz
09-29-2009, 8:06 PM
I am not sure a Glass blowing shop will guide you in the right direction for understanding the effects of colored glass frits on a different substrate.
No, but he will more than likely have a good understanding of what glaze recipes will create a specific color. Granted, he may not share those recipes with anyone, but he'd know...

Darren Null
09-29-2009, 8:22 PM
Won't necessarily help us- we're talking about much lower temperatures than either glasswork or normal pottery involve. Low-cone glazes with LOADS of frit is the sort of thing we need...we want it to melt fast.

And we'll probably have to completely redo the colour thing because we're in a different temperature range and the reactions are different/don't kick off at all.

Dan Hintz
09-29-2009, 8:54 PM
Won't necessarily help us- we're talking about much lower temperatures than either glasswork or normal pottery involve. Low-cone glazes with LOADS of frit is the sort of thing we need...we want it to melt fast.

And we'll probably have to completely redo the colour thing because we're in a different temperature range and the reactions are different/don't kick off at all.
Darren,

There's little information out there on the subject that won't help... often times knowing what not to do is just as useful. Mixing in some sodium carbonate will lower the melting point of the frit significantly. Using this mix alone would only be good for metals or closed-pore ceramics (such as ones that have already been glazed... store-bought tiles would be okay), but a bit of calcium oxide and magnesium oxide helps in those other cases. There are a number of glass recipes out there that melt at temperatures below 400C (and lead-free, too).

None of the above is a state secret, it's used daily in the glass industry and most of it has been known for centuries. The color changes are known for a very wide range of materials over a wide range of temperatures (certainly any temperature range we might ever hope to achieve).

Darren Null
09-29-2009, 9:31 PM
I sit corrected. I was going on the theory that people who use much higher temperatures daily won't necessarily be so clued up on the lesser-temp stuff that we're interested in. Reactions and colours that they use as daily tools won't necessarily be the same.

I did have a chat with a potter today, but -having had to do it in Spanish- I'm not much further along the path to enlightenment.

I like lead-free.

Andrea Weissenseel
09-30-2009, 1:49 AM
I ordered me some enamel powder that is supposed to be melted in the oven at 150° C, the max temperature is supposed to be 180° C so it probably would be useful to know at what temp the laser works. They said there is epoxy in it

Dan Hintz
09-30-2009, 6:23 AM
I ordered me some enamel powder that is supposed to be melted in the oven at 150° C, the max temperature is supposed to be 180° C so it probably would be useful to know at what temp the laser works. They said there is epoxy in it
Sounds like regular powdercoat stuff... you can purchase it by the barrelfull at places in the US like Harbor Freight. Think LaserDarc...

Not the same idea as the glaze, but it may be worth a quick play session to suspend it a solution to get it to paint easily (rather than electrostatically paint it with a gun). You'll need to add something to the solution to get it to stick to the substrate once the suspension has dried. Could be a neat effect.

Dan Hintz
10-04-2009, 3:14 PM
Glazes came in :) I just spent the last 2-3 hours tuning for paint-coated aluminum. Text down to 6pt looks pretty decent, though it could be better. Don't know if I'll have any time to play with the glazes this evening, but we'll see.

Dee Gallo
10-04-2009, 4:02 PM
Dan, I'm waiting with anticipation - what cone did you get? And are the glazes transparent or opaque? Good luck!

:) dee

Dan Hintz
10-04-2009, 6:23 PM
They're all between 06 and 04 cone, so a higher heat than I would like, but I wanted a wide range of colors to work with. Quality reds (the unicorn of glazes) tend towards higher cones, so I set my sights high ;-)

Dan Hintz
12-07-2009, 11:05 AM
Bumping this one to the top after Sergio's posting. I had some bombs early on in the process, but I was looking for the ultra-easy way out. Later (more recent) tests showed some serious progress on several colors once I used a modified plan of attack, so as time permits I will expand my color palette. I'm optimistic, even if lacking in play time...

Tim Wooldridge
07-27-2010, 12:49 AM
Hey guys haven't been around here for a while. Any progress? I'm starting to try to further my process beyond the kiln.

Dan Hintz
07-27-2010, 7:47 AM
I had some decent success with a burgundy color, then I ran out of time to test any more... I'll pick it up again in the coming months.

John Barton
06-25-2011, 9:29 PM
I have a suggestion. Would it be of any use to start a donation fund to allow someone a few week's worth of time to have them work on finding the best DIY color solution for us? It seems as if the community has put forth a lot of good ideas and some testing but nothing has really come of it.

I'd be in to invest in giving someone who is already headed in the right direction some financial relief to play until they either get it or tell us that it's beyond our means as little guys :-)

Cindy Rhoades
06-26-2011, 12:34 PM
very nice work and the marking looks fairly uniform

Chuck Stone
06-26-2011, 10:15 PM
I forgot to mention that I tried a black underglaze that seemed to work well.
I don't know if it bonded or it colored the metal, but steel wool didn't remove
the mark till it removed the metal.