Bandsaw Problems

[Tullie Templet]

I just bought a delta 10" 28-195 bandsaw. It came with new tires since the old ones wer shot. The problem I am having is getting it to track right. I had to shim the top wheel to get them into alignment. When they are set in alignment and I rotate them with the blade on the blade immediately tracks to the front of the wheels almost coming off. When I adjust it to track in the middle of the top wheel, the bottom wheel and the bottom of the top wheel are aligned but the top of the top wheel is about 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch back off of parallel and the blade rides to the front of the bottom wheel. Seems if the two wheels are parallel at setup the blade should track in the middle and only small adjustments should be needed. Also if I run it the blade tracks front and back front and back on top and bottom wheel (ie.. back and forth) I know this saw is not great but it has to be better than that. All bearings seem to be fine with no play. I consider myself to be mechanically inclined but this thing has me scratching my head. This is the first bandsaw I have ever had. Also the blade I bought for it is a Vermont American blade. Could that be part of the problem. I know it is cheap but it is all I could find here locally. Thanks !!!

[glenn bradley]

It seems a few folks here have this saw and seem to like it. Sounds like you got it used with your comment on the tires. I'll give it a shot and see if I can help till someone who knows better comes along.


I had to shim the top wheel to get them into alignment.By this do you mean you had to put shim(s) on the axle to get the wheels co-planer?


When they are set in alignment and I rotate them with the blade on the blade immediately tracks to the front of the wheels almost coming off.There is an adjustment that tilts the top wheel's axle that allows positioning the blade front middle or rear. Middle being generally preferred on small saws with small blades like 1/4".


When I adjust it to track in the middle of the top wheel, the bottom wheel and the bottom of the top wheel are aligned but the top of the top wheel is about 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch back off of parallel and the blade rides to the front of the bottom wheel.
If your wheels are co-planer, the blade should be in the same place (front, middle, back) on each wheel. If the blade rides to the front of one wheel and the middle of the other, adjust your wheel for co-planer before proceeding Otherwise you'll pretty much just chase your tail.


Seems if the two wheels are parallel at setup the blade should track in the middle and only small adjustments should be needed.Unless something else is seriously odd, this is a true statement. Could we get some pics from the front and side showing the blade positions?


Also if I run it the blade tracks front and back front and back on top and bottom wheel (ie.. back and forth)Not to be a smarty but, that ain't right ;). Kinda taking a stab at it without a look at the saw but this almost sounds like a seriously kinked blade or tires that are not smooth over their surface.

With the blade off the saw and setting teeth-side up on a known flat surface, does the back of the blade (opposite the teeth) touch the surface completely along it's length? If so, carefully eyeball your tires. They should be smoothly stretched (moderate tencion) over the wheels like a rubber band around a soda can; sorta, kinda. Wow, that sounded technical :rolleyes:.

[Phil Thien]

How and how much did you shim it?

The 28-195 was an aluminum uni-body. The chances of having to shim wheels to make them coplanar seems unlikely (that is, they should be coplanar without the need for shimming). If my memory is correct, each wheel is held on its axle with a c-clip, and my recollection was that there was a spring washer behind each wheel to take up any small amount of play. I don't remember there being much room for shims.

(1) I'd undo any shimming that has been done.

(2) I'd remove the blade and table, and push a straight edge against the two wheels. The top wheel will flop around until you apply pressure w/ the straight edge, but once you press down on it you want to see the straight edge contact top and bottom of each wheel. If you can't make that happen, report back here and let me know how far you're off, and where.

(3) I'd make sure the new tires are correct. They should be (from memory) 11/16" wide x 1/8" thick. They should sit between the rims on each wheel and not have any humps. The crown of the aluminum wheels should be discernible through the tires (that is, the tires should look crowned).

(4) Try 2-3 blades, from different vendors, just to eliminate the blade as the culprit.

(5) Even if you have the correct tires, they can be temperamental. The ones I use are cut down from wider (1") tires. Sometimes arranging the cut edge of the tire towards me on the bottom wheel, while the cut edge is away from me on the top tire, helps in blade tracking. Sounds crazy, but I may suggest turning the bottom tire around (not inside out, but so the cut edge is opposite where it is now).

[Tullie Templet]

I shimmed it with a washer about 1/16 in. Before they weren't close to co-planer. You are correct the tires are 11/16" wide and 1/8" thick but it looks like he had to cut them to fit. He gave me the original packing slip for them and they were 3/4 wide. I can see the crown through the tires. The tires are rubber and are NOTglued. He said he was told he didn't have to but I read you should. What is the correct way and does this affect the tracking. I think I will take Mr. Thien's advice and undo my shims and start over and I'll let you know about the wheel alignment then. I'll check on the blade being straight and will try turning one tire around and see if this helps. Thanks for the advice guys and I'll report back tomorrow. Thanks again.

[mickey cassiba]

In the re-conditioning shop we saw a lot of these, both the -195 and the later "ShopMaster" variant BS200(IIRC). They are the same. One of the biggest problems (considered fatal) was that the aluminum side of the saw(frame) was warped. Too difficult to fix in a production environment, but fixable none the less. A stout straight edge held against the front edge of the cabinet will reveal any twist. The solution is brute strength and patience. withe the lower end of the frame clamped firmly to a bench a small twist in the opposite direction will move the upper end of the frame. Emhpasis on small is key. Too much force can snap the frame. Repeated checks and adjustments can bring the frame into alignment.
Good luck.

[Phil Thien]

In the re-conditioning shop we saw a lot of these, both the -195 and the later "ShopMaster" variant BS200(IIRC). They are the same. One of the biggest problems (considered fatal) was that the aluminum side of the saw(frame) was warped.

Interesting. I would think that die-cast aluminum would break before it would bend appreciably.

[glenn bradley]

I'm glad Mickey chimed in because my first gut reaction was that somebody had dropped that saw ;-(

Tires: Sounds like neoprene replacement tires, the seam is normal and on the ones I've seen is warranted for life. If the tires were not trimmed to fit between any outer lips on the wheels (if they exist), they could be buckling. This should easily be seen by eye.

Unbending: Phil's caution is worth taking into account but Mickey's experience is encouraging should you find that the poor guy has actually been tweaked. Like titanium eyeglass frames, the line between accepting a bit of tweaking and just plain snapping is pretty narrow. Take care and use some finesse if this is required. As Mickey states: "Emphasis on small is key".

Good luck and keep us posted.

[David Christopher]

Tullie, I had the same problem with my rikon, I gave them a call and the tech. and he had me to ajust the bottom wheel and it tracked perfect after that...if your bottom wheel is ajustable I would give that a try

[mickey cassiba]

They are neat little saws. And , yes, care is required when "un-tweaking" them. We broke a lot of them developing that fix, but mother China, she keep sendin' 'em! The same basic method will work for an aluminum table saw, but a whole lot easier. flip it on it's back and whale it with a rubber mallet. Hundreds of them went to the Re-conditioned tool outlets with that fix:D

[glenn bradley]

Hundreds of them went to the Re-conditioned tool outlets with that fix:D

Ah, the "new" Delta. We done it to ourselves. That's what we get for wanting Nordstrom labels for Wal-Mart prices :D:D:D.

[Tullie Templet]

O.K. I took the shim out and it tracks in the middle with no more side to side movement. But the wheels are not co-planer. It looks to me like the bottom wheel tilts in ( \ ) a little and to compensate to make it track in the middle the top wheel tilts out ( / ). I ran a level on the body of the saw and got it level. When I put the level across the wheels and set it to level it touches the top of the bottom wheel and the bottom of the top wheel. The bottom of the bottom wheel is about 1/8 " off the level and the same at the top of the top wheel. I Don't see any way to adjust this. It cuts good and the blade is stable and tracks good but with just a little wobble that I think I can get out with some balancing of the wheels. Do the wheels have to be absolute co-planer or is this acceptble?

Also I messed up one of the rubber tires after I had it going good and need to replace it. I would like to replace both with urathane tires but the thickness on them are 3/32 and the rubber ones are 1/8". Will this be O.K. are do I need to go back with the rubber ones? Thanks in advance for replies.

I added the simple drawing incase I didn't explain well>

[Phil Thien]

Call Sulphur Grove tool (800/657-5064) and have them weld-up some 11/16 x 1/8" urethane tires. I have them on my Skil HD3640 (almost identical to your saw) and they work great.

[Tullie Templet]

OK thanks Phil. What about those wheels being off a little. Is this acceptable or do they need to be perfect co-planer. I don't see any way to adjust that bottom wheel though. It cuts fine like it is and i would be happy just like that but I don"t want to do long term damage to it.

[Tullie Templet]

Also what guide blocks do most people prefer. I need new ones and I am new to band saws? Thanks !!!!

[Phil Thien]

OK thanks Phil. What about those wheels being off a little. Is this acceptable or do they need to be perfect co-planer. I don't see any way to adjust that bottom wheel though. It cuts fine like it is and i would be happy just like that but I don"t want to do long term damage to it.

No long term damage will be done.

I'd advise getting the new tires on, and then checking again. The rubber tires you were using may not have been transmitting the crown properly.

For grins, you may want to toss a straightedge against the BACK of the saw. I think you'll find it is very nearly perfectly flat.

BTW, real men install the urethane tires without warming them in hot water. You'll want a Popsicle stick or two to help get your fingers out from between the tire and the wheel, and maybe a band aid in the event that you aren't fast enough with the Popsicle stick. :D

[Phil Thien]

Also what guide blocks do most people prefer. I need new ones and I am new to band saws? Thanks !!!!

Cool Blocks are popular. If you have any hard and oily exotic wood (lignum vitae is great, but cocobolo is pretty darn close), you can make your own. Some people also used red oak left on end in a little saucer of WD-40. The red oak w/ absorb the WD-40. That also works pretty well. Wood is kinda soft and the screws that secure the blocks will create divots. To prevent this, you can use some brass stock to make what I call pressure pads. See this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=116289

If you want steel, you can visit the hardware store and get some 3/8" machine keys.

[Tullie Templet]

I'll let you know if I am a real man or not when I get those tires.:D Those rubber tires didn't look right to me. I think they may be some of the problem. Thanks a bunch for the info.

P.S. The frame is not warped like one guy suggested. That's a relief.

[Tom Veatch]

What about those wheels being off a little. Is this acceptable or do they need to be perfect co-planer.

Far too much emphasis is placed on the wheels being coplanar. It's not necessary on crowned wheels. What is necessary is that the surfaces on the top and bottom wheels, on which the blade is riding, must be parallel. As long as the blade is stable in it's track, riding on an acceptable part of the wheel, and essentially perpendicular to the table, whether or not the wheels are precisely coplanar is immaterial.

The only time it becomes necessary for the wheels to be coplanar is if the wheels are flat, not crowned, and it is necessary for the blade to track in a specific place on the wheels. As an example of that, my metal cutting bandsaw has flat, hard surface wheels. It is necessary that the blade ride those wheels with the teeth proud of the edge of the wheel. Otherwise the hard surface of the wheels will take the set out of the blade. In that case, and only in that case, is it necessary for the wheels to be coplanar so that the flat wheel surfaces are parallel and the edge of both wheels clears the blade's gullet.

[mickey cassiba]

Total difference of 1/16" should be acceptable, you can take that out in the tension adjustment. Truth told, we got blades that varied at least that much from the oem supplier.

Mickey

[Tullie Templet]

Thanks guys. I was kinda thinking (and hoping) this was the case. I know this is not a great saw and as long as it tracks in the middle and cuts I am happy. A new set of wheels and I think it will be fine. Thanks so much !!!

[glenn bradley]

Normally we don't get through a bandsaw thread without recommending Mark Duginski's book (http://www.amazon.com/New-Complete-Guide-Band-Saw/dp/1565233182/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253796101&sr=1-2). Since you asked, this seems to be the recommendation although I do not have it.

[Gary Muto]

I also have a Rikon Saw and called them about tracking as someone else stated. There are four bolts that hold/align the lower axle and that controls the tilt (camber) of the lower wheel. It works the way the tracking adjustment does for the top wheel although it also allows for side to side (toe) as well as the camber adjustment. I was given no instruction to adjust the side to side only the tilt adjustment. This had to be done under tension so they advised to use the OEM blade since that would give me good tension setting using the saw's tension gage. I was told this is a one time adjsutment and that tension affects tracking...likely due to deflection of the frame? Either way with different blades come different lengths, so the tension may have to be tweaked to get a blade to track properly.

Anyway, it worked great and I have no idea if my wheels are co-planer but two other blades have tracked very well after this origiinal adjustment and my aftermarket blades are a different length so the tension gauge does not read 100% accurate.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Those who recommend shimming the wheels to make them coplanar (Duginske) point out that this should be done with the largest blade installed and tensioned. The frame will flex a bit, so the wheels won't be perfectly coplanar with other blades. The smaller the blade, the less important that the wheels be coplanar. So just adjust the tracking and use the saw.