I need a Tablesaw sanity check!

[Sean lennon]

Hi all
I have been a non-posting reader for quite some time here and find the knowledge base here a tremendous asset.

I grew up in a machine shop and currently have a with a fully equipped metal shop attached to our house. In the past I restored an old Racine bandsaw with snowflake wheelguards(i will never giver her up), a Milwaukee homecraft tablesaw(tilting table) and 4" jointer for the minor woodwork I do. they have served well but I need to move on to something I can use to support a home remodel.

The dilemma I have gotten myself into as of late centers around a tablesaw...
I have a softspot for old iron and was drawn to a Rockwell Delta 12"-14" saw(5hp) for sale locally, it has an overarm blade guard, long rails W/Beisemeyer fence, roller outfeed conveyor, spare arbor extensions and blades for ~$1,200

I contrast that with about the same money for something like a G0691 or 1023 series from grizzly in the 10" size range.

What I understand:
I will most likely use a 10" blade on the delta anyways but I like the thought of all that table real estate.

I understand that a 10" saw is most likely all i will need

the "plug and play" of the grizzly is attractive

3phase is not an issue...I have that

potentially making a repair part for a machine doesn't scare me.


What I don't understand(and a whole lot more)

would the larger table be THAT much of an asset?

what would I get myself into with regards to blades and jigs(tennoning, whatnot)


as I said, this is a sanity check, I am dealing with strong "I like old american iron" issues here.


Thanks for any comments
some rational advice would be appreciated.


Cheers,
Sean

[Lee Schierer]

I find a larger table helpful when cutting sheet goods so I can cut without the aid of a helper.

Be aware that 12" saws generally have a 1" arbor and 10" saws have 5/8 diameter center holes.

[Rod Sheridan]

The only issue I found with a larger saw is that the blade is further back from the front edge of the saw.

This can result in a lot of leaning over if you're working on small stuff.

That said, I'm about to purchase a 12" saw myself.............Rod

[Peter Quinn]

I use a 12" saw (7HP 3P 1" arbor) at work, along with a variety of 10" saws. I find the 12" (SCMI) is a bit more comfortable to use with some of the larger stuff we do in 12/4-16/4 material. It gives you 3 7/8" cutting capacity and never slows down even in the thickest material. The larger table is to me largely irrelevant. Ours doesn't support a standard tennoning jig which is not a problem as we have many other saws and options, I suppose the delta may use a standard miter slot? In any event a jig could easily be fashioned or modified to work, they are not complicated especially for a machinist.

Its a lot more saw than would be needed for average cabinet work and home repair, but the price seems right. That bigger table is a help with longer stock. In any event I'd rather have a bit more capacity than I need than a bit less in most circumstances.

[Dan Friedrichs]

As Lee said, check the arbor size. I'm sure a dado stack for 1" arbor is MUCH more expensive than for a 5/8".

It's probably a wash on all other counts. Personally, I'd buy the Grizzly - especially if it has a riving knife.

[Jeff Willard]

Conventional wisdom here dictates that:

A) If you have the space...

B) and if cost isn't a deterrent...

then bigger is better. You have to decide. Can you look into your crystal ball and envision projects in the future that may require the larger machine?

[David DeCristoforo]

When did sanity become a factor in tool buying decisions? Did I miss something?

[Matt Ranum]

I was debating this same question a little while ago over a Rockwell 12". I just decided for myself and my small shop that as much as I love big old American iron the 12" was just overkill and at 800lbs it was going to be a challenge just getting it home and in the shop.

Just for reference it was a 1966 model 5hp 3ph with original fence & guards and 2 blades. Sold at auction for $550.

[Dan Forman]

When did sanity become a factor in tool buying decisions? Did I miss something?

:D:D:D

Dan

[Marty Paulus]

Sean,

Given the options ,cash availability and shop space I would go for the 12” saw myself. You mentioned you are getting into a home remodel. The extra table space can’t hurt. Capacity of the cut is greater. Yea the saw will have a 1” arbor. So what? Most 12” blades have a 1” arbor hole. The dado stack that has a 1” arbor hole is $10 more. Not a show stopper in my book. If you have a fully functional machine shop already you know the advantages of larger machines. The give you more option to get into different areas. I say go for the 12” saw.

[Mike Wilkins]

Another vote here for getting the big saw. You will not regret the additional power, capacity and accuracy of the larger machine. I would keep the small one you already have for use on smaller cuts and for dado use.

[Dick Sylvan]

I have a Hammer C3-31 which is 4 hp and can take a 12" blade. Most of the time I use a 10" WWII on it, but was recently cutting some 12/4 stock and found the 12" blade very helpful in that circumstance and was glad to have the extra hp over my old Jet cabinet saw. So, I say, in your case why not go for the larger saw!!

[JohnMorgan of Lititz]

If you grew up in a machine shop, you probably have a strong appreciation for detail and well built things. Along with all of that, also having a strong "i like old American iron" mindset I think you should buy the Rockwell.

I have a new grizzly jointer and planer, separate machines. They have nice stuff, no doubt. But I also have this liking for European things (their motorcycles, their cars, and their tools). To this day, I'm a bit upset I didn't go for a MiniMax or Felder. Instead I cheaped out and went chinese-commie route.

It's not the end of the world, and the Grizzly machines are very well made - but sometimes the sentimental side, if you want to call it that, has its value as well...

I'm willing to bet in a few months, you will kick yourself for not picking up that old Rockwell saw. You'll get much more enjoyment down the road knowing you fixed it up and put it in fine tune running order. After using the Rockwell for a few weeks, you'll forget about the negatives of having to go over the machine and set it up...your perception of the working/rebuilt machine will be your reality...and it will be a positive one.

No saw is plug and play - any person caring about accuracy is going to go over a brand new saw with the same dial caliper as they would the 60 year old saw and make sure its setup spot on...you, again being a machinist at heart are certainly no different!

Good luck!

[phil harold]

you can make little stuff on a big machine
but,
it is harder to make big stuff on a small machine

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

[QUOTE=Sean lennon;1219636]
3phase is not an issue...I have that[/quote


Well you can get a Northfield if you got treble phase

Or you can get a Felder.

[Bob Elliott]

I went through the same decision in 2004.

I lost all my tools as the result of a garage fire on 12/31/02. What seemed like a tragedy turned into a dream come true - I got to frame the garage the way I wanted and I got to buy all new tools!

After much deliberation I settled on a Bridgewood 12" left tilting table saw. The big downside I saw was parts availibility but so far I haven't needed anything and it works flawlessly. Believe it or not I put that beast on a mobile base I made fo wood so I can move it around the garage.

I chose the larger saw for these reasons:

1. Power
2. Larger table
3. Interchangeable arbors (I can go between 1" and 3/4" to use a 12" or 10" blade)
4. Greater cut depth

I instantly fell in love with my table saw and haven;t regretted the decision or missed the extra space it takes.

Bob

[David Keller NC]

Sean - The question you may need to answer on the older Rockwell is a) whether the table is flat, and if not, how far it's off, and b) how old the motor is and what it will cost for new bearings and rewinding (or how much it will cost for an equivalent motor. Those are the things you're generally buying when you get a new anything - the ability to return it if its not up to snuff, and no wear on the motor and bearings.

As for the 1" arbor, if you've a machine shop (boy, am I jealous!), swapping out the pillow block, bearing, pulley and shaft for a 5/8" setup should be no big deal if you find the selection of 12" blades lacking.

[Dave Cav]

I have the same Rockwell/Delta 12/14" saw. I paid about the same for it, and also got a Brett over arm guard. If you have any questions about rebuilding it, sourcing parts, bearings, etc, all the info you will need is at owwm.com (http://www.owwm.com) (info) and owwm.org (http://www.owwm.org) (forums).

I would go ahead and get the bigger saw if you have the space. One thing I don't think anyone mentioned is this saw is supposed to have a two piece arbor. The "normal" 1" arbor stub will unscrew and you can install a 5/8" arbor to use 10" blades or 5/8" dado blades. You can also get a long 1" stub arbor and use 1" dado blades stacked up to 2" wide. These accessory stub arbors are hard to get from Rockwell and expensive but Grizzly also sells a 14" saw and it uses the same arbors so it's a direct drop in replacement.

Some of the saws have a one piece arbor with no removable stub (like mine). What that probably means is the arbor was replaced some time in the saw's life with a shop made arbor. However, there is a guy on OWWM that is tooling up to make replacement 2 piece arbors.

Once you get used to the size of the saw, and it does take a few weeks to get used to it, you will love it, and a 10" saw will feel like a Dremel tool. I see no point in running a 10" blade in it; I would go ahead and get what ever kind of blade you think will work best for you; 12" blades are not much more expensive than 10" blades. I keep a rip blade in mine all the time, and do my crosscutting and miters on either a RAS or my 10" saw.

[Chuck Saunders]

Delta, next question

[Sean lennon]

Wow!
Lots of great answers, thanks for the input folks.

as far as the arbor goes; the saw i am looking at does have the 2 piece arbor with 1", 1 1/8" and 5/8" extensions...nice detail those guys thought of....the 1" looks like it has some damage from blade spinning...doesn't look like too much to make a replacement as I was quoted almost $300 for a replacement...that has got to be a typo!
Strange, it was the first thing i noticed when i looked "under the hood"


the table flatness is a good point, having the table Blanchard ground is not a big deal but it is something I would rather not have to do. i have a set of 48" camelbacks i can check the table with...it might be a good bargaining point if it is warped.


I have talked to a couple of guys at work that do a fair amount of woodwork and the only downside they saw was that I might ask them to help move a 1000lb machine into my shop.


Time to go find where i left those camelbacks now:rolleyes:


Thanks
Sean

[Sean lennon]

Soooo...

I am sitting in the shop(metal...sorry for being such a heretic) and pondering my choice of tablesaws and what I like and don't like about each.

It was as I looked at a pile of linear ways and boxes of bearings and shafts that it occurred to me that all the parts to build a saw to fit my needs was sitting all around me in the shop; linear, ball, and roller bearings, shafts, belts, 1" cast tooling plates, motors and a collection of machines to build it on.

by building my own with parts I already have on hand, I am no longer constrained by economic feasibility but by creativity.

so, why not a 10-12" saw with a sliding table, riving knife and slitting blade.
use an expanded version of the PM linear arbor support such are used on the PM66 except use IKO linear way bearing trucks instead of dovetail ways

use the cast tooling plate as a normal sized table and then build outfeed tables and wings from 1.25" aluminum honeycomb panel that I have left over from a project.



just some Idle thoughts today.


cheers,
sean

[Randal Stevenson]

Sounds like a gil-built, lol.

[Sean lennon]

Sounds like a gil-built, lol.

I had to look them up....oh Boy...

probably not far from the truth though.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

I have a softspot for old iron and was drawn to a Rockwell Delta 12"-14" saw(5hp) for sale locally, it has an overarm blade guard, long rails W/Beisemeyer fence, roller outfeed conveyor, spare arbor extensions and blades for ~$1,200


Why would you get any other conventional TS with that waiting for you?

Maybe a NORTHFIELD ( ya gotta shout when you say NORTHFIELD) would be better but, it'd prolly cost more too.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

If you wind up building one I'd love to see it...post some pics! Otherwise....buy the Rockwell!!!

[Dave Cav]

Wow!
Lots of great answers, thanks for the input folks.

as far as the arbor goes; the saw i am looking at does have the 2 piece arbor with 1", 1 1/8" and 5/8" extensions...nice detail those guys thought of....the 1" looks like it has some damage from blade spinning...doesn't look like too much to make a replacement as I was quoted almost $300 for a replacement...that has got to be a typo!
Strange, it was the first thing i noticed when i looked "under the hood"



I have talked to a couple of guys at work that do a fair amount of woodwork and the only downside they saw was that I might ask them to help move a 1000lb machine into my shop.

Thanks
Sean

The Grizzly 14" saw arbor is a direct drop in replacement for a lot less than what Delta wants. Of course, if you are comfortable turning tapers, then making a replacement shouldn't be too much trouble.

And it only weighs about 850 pounds...

Dave

[Sean lennon]

Well folks....

I did neither, kinda sort of.

things have been a bit hectic at work lately and I found myself putting a lot of things aside till they slow down a bit.
I was on a service call in Cincinnati the other day and came across E.B. Mueller with a lot of used equipment; I told the salesman that I was just "kicking the tires" and that time was a bit tight , at their recommendation, I tried Hermance machine in Williamsport Pa. as I was going to be in the area in the next few weeks.

I got a 1964 Delta/Rockwell 12"-14" 34-350 5Hp (3ph, that's OK, i have the power)

$400 out the door as you see it in the photos.
the machine was exactly as they represented it online and the salesman Brian Kita was great to deal with on coordinating the pickup and getting a 950lb machine in my truck. their place is really interesting and all the people i met were extremely friendly and helpful.

kudos to the folks at Mueller also, super friendly and helpful....especially when the person is a "tire kicker". they had nothing to gain, they were just plain helpful.

I disassembled the pig to move it in the house and while the table was off slid new bearings in the arbor and motor.

while the arbor was out, I dusted it on it's bearings to take a couple dings out and true the flange...a few tenths runout with a test plate mounted, i can live with that.

I did some cleanup inside and lubed the thrust bearings for the tilt and lift mechanism, installed 4 new belts, not much else other than that right now.

the photo doesn't really do justice to the size of the table, it is huge.
so is the motor for that matter, it is a 213 frame and it really sucks getting it out for service.

so much for now, thanks for all the input.

Sean


P.S.

yeah,
That's a Powermatic fence, it needs some TLC and new faceboards.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Sweet price and a great deal...that things a monster! Congrats!!

[Maurice Ungaro]

Good things come to those who wait! I just have to keep reminding myself that........