PDA

View Full Version : Thermark sample kit?



Dee Gallo
09-14-2009, 9:00 PM
Does anyone know of a vendor who offers a Thermark sample pack of the colors for ceramic/glass? It's a bit expensive to buy the big containers of red, yellow, blue, black and white in order to test the color mixing capabilities. And since they make green, that tells me their yellow and blue will not mix true - similar to temperas I would guess. That's something like $60 x 6 = $360 plus shipping just to run some tests?

Just askin' ~ dee

ps- this is all Steve's fault anyway

Steve Clarkson
09-14-2009, 9:05 PM
That's why I only bought BLACK!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!

Dan Hintz
09-15-2009, 6:56 AM
Now might be a good time to start experimenting with home-made Cermark :)

nancy barry
09-15-2009, 8:11 AM
Dan! explain please! lots of us do not want to spend so much to try this product. I have asked on numerous occassions that they offer a sample kit of all colors.

Dee, I did have access to ceramark several years ago. The black worked best. I was testing on glass. It was not "interesting "enough to persue... but, times and product have changed...

nancyB

Dan Hintz
09-15-2009, 8:55 AM
Dan! explain please! lots of us do not want to spend so much to try this product. I have asked on numerous occassions that they offer a sample kit of all colors.
I have no special recipe, if that's what you're asking, I was suggesting maybe we should try to come up with one... at the very least, we should be able to come up with some laser-safe dyes or pigments that can add some tone to the white. There's nothing magical about the process or the materials, we simply need to find the right chemicals... I would suggest starting with glass-blowing solutions.

Hmmm, maybe I'll futz around on the net later and see what kind of concoctions I can come up with.

Dee Gallo
09-15-2009, 9:08 AM
This poses any interesting question: what exactly IS Thermark?

I wonder what would happen if we lasered over ceramic glaze for example? Do we have anyone out there who does ceramics and knows what the make up of glaze is, in relation to a laser beam?

I know you need certain temperatures for different types of glaze and they can get into the 1000's of degrees. What is the temperature of our laser beam?

There are also people who do enamel work who use fusing for decoration. Could we use the glass dust they use?

cheers, dee

Martin Boekers
09-15-2009, 9:56 AM
I haven't tried ceramic glaze yet. I guess they make that in opaque colors as well as transparent.

I have often wondered about glass frit also as I believe they make different grades of that and it may work. Any glass artists out there?

It seems what I read about brick the laser viterlizes the clay to turn it to glass. Maybe that's something to explore.

Maybe we ought to start a thread for this as it would be easier to search as we post our results and trials.

Marty

Dan Hintz
09-15-2009, 10:28 AM
This poses any interesting question: what exactly IS Thermark?
It's a pretty simple recipe, actually. It's a mixture of fine clay (to absorb the laser energy and heat the mixture... this is burned off in the process), glass frit (which acts as a low-heat bonding agent for the colorant), a pigment (i.e., the colorant), and the carrier (ethanol or water). I figure rather than trying to recreate the recipe exactly from scratch, add some color to the white stuff and go from there.


There are also people who do enamel work who use fusing for decoration. Could we use the glass dust they use?
This was my thinking... or at least combine a portion of those colorants with some Cermark/Thermark.

Dee Gallo
09-15-2009, 10:48 AM
I looked up info on low fire overglazes: they fire at cone 6 which is 1828 degrees F. There are also low fire bisque glazes and pencils. They must be made up of the same ingredients Dan mentioned. I would assume the water based variety is something safer for the laser than solvent based, although it's dry when you would fire it. Does anyone know the temperature generated by a laser?

One small detail about Thermark: I read that it is delicate when applied, can be wiped off easily so be careful handling it. This would probably eliminate the airbrush masking technique I mentioned since you would not be able to cover areas already sprayed without ruining them. Back to Steve's spray one-burn one method.

add some color to the white stuff and go from there. Hmm. If you add pigment to white, you end up with a pastel color. You could not get a pure bright red or blue that way.

~ dee

Dan Hintz
09-15-2009, 11:09 AM
I would assume the water based variety is something safer for the laser than solvent based, although it's dry when you would fire it.
Cermark comes mixed with ethanol (the ones that require a HazMat shipping fee), but you don' laser until it has dried.

Does anyone know the temperature generated by a laser?
Depends heavily upon your wattage and the dwell time, but getting to the required temps won't be a problem.

One small detail about Thermark: I read that it is delicate when applied, can be wiped off easily so be careful handling it. This would probably eliminate the airbrush masking technique I mentioned since you would not be able to cover areas already sprayed without ruining them. Back to Steve's spray one-burn one method.
And here I thought you had already tried this method and were simply more skilled at it :p I know I can leave a good impression of my fingerprint in the stuff when dried on stainless steel. :mad:

add some color to the white stuff and go from there. Hmm. If you add pigment to white, you end up with a pastel color. You could not get a pure bright red or blue that way.
Well, you don't expect me to solve all of the problems at once, do you? :p It's a starting point and would tell us if we're on the right track.

Dee Gallo
09-15-2009, 11:29 AM
And here I thought you had already tried this method and were simply more skilled at it :p I know I can leave a good impression of my fingerprint in the stuff when dried on stainless steel. :mad:

Well, you don't expect me to solve all of the problems at once, do you? :p It's a starting point and would tell us if we're on the right track.

Dan, I AM more skilled at airbrush, so I wouldn't bother to use a mask - that's how good I am! :D

Do you have any white CThermark? It would an interesting experiment to add some universal pigment to it. I have pigments and no CThermark other than black. I might be more inclined to buy the yellow, though, as a base. Then you would be able to use yellow, orange, red-orange, mandarin red, green, yellow-green, turquoise, brown, and dark versions of those rather than just pastels.

More work needed!

:) dee

Randy Digby
09-15-2009, 12:58 PM
So...Make your own Cermark...interesting thought.

When I was researching lasers, a salesman at one of the demo sessions said that gun blue would work also. Now at the time, I didn't know what Cermark/Thermark was, so I didn't pursue the idea. I have done a little (very littel) reseach since then and all I can find is liquid cold blue, which I'm almost certain, would not work with staining the base metal. I didn't purchase my laser from that company so I can't use then as a source for info.

Anyone heard of or tried a form of gun blue? Or other substance with any success?

Phil Garcia
09-15-2009, 2:44 PM
Yes, I was told the same thing I believe from Epilog, I can not remember exactly who told me since I have slept to many times since then but I do remember someone telling me the samething. However at the time I did not realize the importance of it since I was just trying to remember all the other important details of like how to align the laser, align the table, etc..etc..:)

Andrea Weissenseel
09-16-2009, 4:28 AM
A very intertesting thread :) I got into this for a quiet a while, but evetually dropped it, since I'm not a chemist :(

Did you try to contact Thermark directly. I ordered my samples from them and they are selling samll sample kits.



Originally Posted by Dee Gallo http://www.sawmillcreek.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?p=1214525#post1214525)
Does anyone know the temperature generated by a laser?


I don't think that temperature is the problem, since you get glazes which are fired at lower temperatures - IMHO the time temperature is applied is the problem. I talked to a chemical company who are marking colors for painting glass and porcelain and they mixed me some samples that might work - unfortunately it didn't.

Didn't try to mix Thermark colors, because I was told it wouldn't work - I'd rather would mix the different liquids instead of spraying the colors on top of each other. But since I only have black, blue and the bronze/brown/goldish stuff here, it doesn't make too much sense to mix them :D

Andrea - very excited of the outcome of this thread :)

Dave Johnson29
09-16-2009, 5:44 AM
a salesman at one of the demo sessions said that gun blue would work also.

Hi Randy,

I can't see how the liquid blue would work as that's a chemical reaction with the liquid and the steel. I am pretty sure the laser would just boil off the liquid.

Maybe they were talking about a slurry of bluing salts like Oxynate or something. Even then though, I cannot see how that might work either.

Unless they are talking about bluing the metal then burning away the blue with the laser much like anodized aluminum.

onur cakir
09-16-2009, 5:48 AM
Dee Hi !

I mixed thermark colors and it simply didnt worked !

Thermark can be great for marking etc. but not the perfect material for murals and pictures.

Attached picture is Thermark on white ultra bright granite.

Randy Digby
09-16-2009, 8:08 AM
I'm with you Dave, except now we have heard it from two different laser sales people. If it works, it most likely is not as"black" or bold as Thermark. I went to Wally World last night to buy some gun blue but they don't stock it any more. You have to order it online, but they have a two week delivery. I did order some other chemicals from an industrial supply house I want to try. I don't have a lot of faith in either of them but I just have to scratch the itch. I should have the stuff in a couple of days and will post the results - good or bad - here.

Dan Hintz
09-16-2009, 8:31 AM
I mixed thermark colors and it simply didnt worked !
What was the result?

onur cakir
09-16-2009, 11:03 AM
What was the result?

Well i get a muddy-bubblish mixture. Normally green and red mixture should give grey color but for thermark all i get is a muddy dirty red.

Mixed thermark gets thicker, doesnt dries like normal and i get a lot of waves on engraved surface.

Dan Hintz
09-16-2009, 11:25 AM
Well i get a muddy-bubblish mixture. Normally green and red mixture should give grey color but for thermark all i get is a muddy dirty red.

Mixed thermark gets thicker, doesnt dries like normal and i get a lot of waves on engraved surface.
It's a subtractive process (not additive, like light), something to keep in mind when mixing colors. Green is the same as mixing yellow/cyan, and red is the same as mixing yellow/magenta. I hope you were expecting a very dark grey, at least. A muddy red doesn't surprise me as these pigments aren't pure themselves, so the red pigments may be stronger in content than the green pigments. Since black usually isn't directly possible by mixing the three main color (CMY, which usually comes out a dark brown rather than black), the "muddy" (brown) red sounds about right. I would be willing to bet, however, that mixing their yellow and blue would get you a lot closer to green than blue/red getting you to grey.

There should be no change in the thickness, however... the pigments should be chemically inert (at least until the laser hits them), and they're both in an ethanol carrier.

As for the waves, did you brush it on or spray? If sprayed, a thick material could certainly account for a non-smooth application.

Dee Gallo
09-16-2009, 1:06 PM
It sounds like this is mixing exactly like temperas. The "bubblish" you refer to is most likely the result of mixing vigorously, which will inflate the paint with air and dry with an uneven thickness. Stir the mixture gently! Never shake a containerful.

With paint, red and green make brown - but red is always the stronger pigment and more than likely require a 1 part red to 3 parts green mixture at least. Always start with your weaker pigment in the amount of paint you wish to use. Then add the stronger pigment a little at a time. If you start with the weaker color, you will end up with a gallon of paint by the time you get to the right color. Stir gently to avoid bubbles. It's best to stir with a large brush rather than a stir stick.

The colors which are strongest to weakest for color mixing:
1. black
2. red
3. blue
4. yellow
5. white

The muddy color comes from the way they make the paint. To make yellow more opaque, they add white. To make blue more intense, they add black. When you add them together, you get dull green. Add that to red and you get dull brown. Add water to that and you get grey. Add pure pigment (kelly) green to red and you get chocolate brown.

Hope this helps, dee

Dan Hintz
09-16-2009, 2:22 PM
Looks like we're in agreement, Dee :D I spend the majority of my time with additive processes (from the LEDs), so subtractive processes take a lot of extra forethought. It has been a while since I painted, but I'd love to retire early (and rich) and start it up again.

onur cakir
09-17-2009, 2:17 PM
Before i represent thermark&laser abilities to architechs first i wanted to test it at my own home. So i decided a mural project and ordered Thermark from Germany.

People working in Thermark company helped a lot for process but i paid a fortune for customs etc.

Anyway i didnt get the result which i was expecting and i get upset, so i tried mixing process a lite rough i guess :)

Thanks for color mixing info !