RAS question - (how much) does size matter?

[David Milstone]

I've always been intrigued by the versatility of the RAS but haven't been convinced it would be worthwhile given my limited floor space. (That really isn't consistent, is it?) Anyway, I haven't had the opportunity to work with one or the $ to buy one just to find out. I now have a Delta 9 inch Model M-10027 Super 900 RAS with 1 hp motor. Will this give a good indication of what I can do with a larger RAS, or is the difference in size, power or simply quality and reproducibility compared to a larger RAS too great to be an accurate indication?

Also, can these saws take larger blades/blade guards? The owwm manual says it's a 5/8 inch arbor (good), but I suppose the motor might not be sufficiently powerful to drive the 10 inch blades I already own.

Seems like it might be reasonably flexible for crosscutting/mitering and for not too deep/not too wide dado. I don't currently own a miter saw, compound or not, sliding or not.

Thanks.

[Joe Jensen]

I think it depends on what you want to do with it. I have an old Dewalt 14". I have a 12" blade on it, and I use it as a dedicated 90 degree crosscut station. I can crosscut 17" with it. Mine is super heavy duty and I have the arm locked from raising and lowering, so it is a perfect 90 and has been for 18 years.

I think the less expensive home shop saws flex a lot more, and therefore they are not very precise.

I have wanted to use mine to cut dados and such but I haven't because the fence system I am using wouldn't work for it, and I'd have to unlock the column which would mean the saw is no longer a perfect 90.

Here are some pics of my cutoff station. (This makes cutting stock at 90 super easy and super accurate).

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/_NIK1423.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w99/AZEngineer/_NIK1449.jpg

[John McClanahan]

I have a Craftsman that I bought new in 1980. I am considering selling it due to lack of use, and mostly lack of space.

There is always a good selection on craigslist. Just pick your price and watch for one.

John

[Mike OMelia]

There is a Dewalt in the classifieds that is the bomb. Kind of like that one above. I do not have space for one, but if I did, I would get one of those older Dewalts. They are amazing.

Mike

[Peter Quinn]

I have a 14" industrial DeWalt from the 40's with a 24" cross cut, and like Joe's mine stays at 90 degrees. Its one heck of a cross cutting tool that can handle up to 4" thickness, and I can cross cut sheet goods for typical cabinet depths which is handy. I don't use it for a fraction of its potential. I considered using it as a shaper at one point. I can't think of a SCMS that can fly through 16/4 oak like a good RAS. At work I set up a 16" heavy industrial DeWalt this winter with a 28" cross cut and a 5" depth of cut. It is a monster built into a long bench that is the first stop for almost everything made in the shop.

How do these compare to a 9" small shop version other than the obvious capacity issues? I have no idea having not used a small RAS other than my Dad's craftsman, which of of such poor quality as to be beyond comparison. Not the same stuff. I can tell you that using a good blade with a negative rake angle meant for the RAS is a good idea rather than some general purpose blade meant for a TS.

[Burt Waddell]

For years I had dreamed about having a radial arm saw that can cross cut 24". I finally got an inca. While it was a nice little tool, I could never keep it square.

A few years ago I got involved with the Eurekazone rail system and made a Cross cutting power bench. It has about a 25" cross cutting capacity and has been a dream come true. It has none of the traits that cause a radial to be consider unsafe. I think rail setups like this will be the crosscutters of the future.

Burt

[Phil Harding]

I've had several different radial arm saws. My first was a newer Craftsman and I experienced all of the problems keeping it aligned that others have reported. I sold it and bought and old 10" 2HP 120 volt Dewalt (sorry I can't remember the model). I loved that saw. I had it locked dead nuts on 90 degrees and it never drifted. Unfortunately the motor died and I decided it was cheaper to replace it than to rebuild the motor. I bought a old Dewalt MBF, 1/2 horsepower, 9" blade. Like the other Dewalt I have it dialed in at 90 degrees and it's rock solid. I bought it from the estate of a picture frame maker. I love this saw except for one thing - it's under powered. It will stall when crosscutting 2" thick maple. I just got a great deal on an old 2 HP 12" Delta. I plan to sell the Dewalt and put the Delta in use.

The point I'm trying to make is that bigger is probably better (at least up to a point). For me, 1/2 horse power is just too small.

-- Phil

[Fred Hargis]

At one point Dewalt put a 10" blade on their 9" saw and sold it as the model 1200. These saws had 3/4 HP motors, and most people deem that inadequate for a 10" blade. Some of the older 10" Dewalts had 1 HP motors (when 1 HP was a true 1 HP) and I've not seen anyone complain about them. Even so, I would want a slightly larger motor for a 10" blade. I have a Dewalt 1030K ( 1 1/2 HP ) and think it''s about as low as I would want with the size blade. To me, the capabilities of my smaller Dewalt (MBF) are about the same as the 1030K....but the larger saw has the capacity for times when the wood is wider or thicker.

[johnny means]

IMO, radial arm saws are great for there primary purpose, crosscutting. But an RAS being outed as versatile is not really the case. Most of the shops I have worked in would just buy several, set them up once to do one thing and never change anything but the blade again. I also see that as a common theme in rhis thread.

[Jay Jeffery]

Shortly after buying my house I picked up a DeWalt RAS probably 40's or 50's era at a yard sale for $60. I've not been abale to find a lot of info on it. It is an 8 1/2" or 9" model (the only blades I've used are 8 1/2", maybe it would take a 9"). I've used it primarily for fairly rough cuts as before a recent tuning it would never cut square and drifted like crazy. I found a small crack in the 90 degree stop. I replaced a broken knob with a grade 8 bolt, applied a lots of torque to lock it down, built my table around it set square to the blade, and it hasn't moved since. If I took the time to learn how to tune it, I have no doubt that it could cut spot on 90's all day long. My OMGA chop saw cuts perfect miters, so tuning the RAS is not a high priority. I've used the RAS to cut miters, cut compound miters, and rip, but it is not worth the hassle of setting it up and I've never liked the results. It may be a versatile machine in what it CAN do, but it is very limited in what it is GOOD at doing.

I had to trim all of my fence boards when rebuilding from hurricane Ike. I don't think a tool better suited for the job exists. Okay, a horizontal bandsaw might, but the RAS really came through as cross cutting with it is effortless.

The cross cut capacity is about 13 inches, which has been plenty for most of my needs. The thing that keeps it from being indispensable is the blade. I haven't found a blade I've been very happy with, but then again, I am not ready to invest a lot of money into this saw. There are real limitations on selection, availability and subsequently, fewer deals to be had with 8 1/2" blades. If I could switch it out for a 10" blade, it might come with me on a move. As it is, it will probably get Craigslisted or Yard sold next time I have to pack everything up.

So my advice would be to get at least a 10" blade.

[David Milstone]

This discussion is very useful, thanks. Sounds like RAS can handle many tasks well but cannot rapidly switch between them unless precision is not important. I'll see how it goes with the one I have acquired. I have little $ invested in it and my time is whatever I can spare, so it will at least be a good learning experience.

Thanks again.

[Don Jarvie]

Dave,

You have a really good saw and if you set if up correctly according to the owners manual you should be able to perform all of the functions it's capable of.

I just rebuild my Delta 900 and haven't set it up yet but with everything tight it doesn't drift of go out of line at all.

[Peter Quinn]

For years I had dreamed about having a radial arm saw that can cross cut 24". A few years ago I got involved with the Eurekazone rail system and made a Cross cutting power bench. It has about a 25" cross cutting capacity and has been a dream come true. It has none of the traits that cause a radial to be consider unsafe.
Burt


You mean it has no blade? Because if it has a blade, it is not entirely safe. The only aspect of a RAS I find unsafe is the nut that connects the handle to the floor. When that gets loose things can get ugly. If one can manage not to pull a giant whirling blade directly into an appendage or otherwise violate every basic rule of shop safety the RAS is otherwise a fairly safe and usable tool.

Glad you found a solution that works for your needs, sorry you never realized your dream of owning a 24" cross cut RAS. It is a thing of beauty I can tell you. Set a few stops, quickly cross cut an entire lift of lumber or plywood to length. I think the only thing better is perhaps a jump saw?

[David Milstone]

does the upside down peace sign below mean this not one of the better quality Rockwell RAS? (This is not the 9 inch saw I have, but another that is knocking around.)

[harry strasil]

Probably the Grandaddy of all RAS, my old Emerson, 10 inch blade, 1 hp, dedicated 90 degree cut off saw. Its just a part of the bench, doesn't take up any room.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/irnsrgn/wood/wwshoppics002.jpg

[Dino Makropoulos]

You mean it has no blade? Because if it has a blade, it is not entirely safe. The only aspect of a RAS I find unsafe is the nut that connects the handle to the floor. When that gets loose things can get ugly. If one can manage not to pull a giant whirling blade directly into an appendage or otherwise violate every basic rule of shop safety the RAS is otherwise a fairly safe and usable tool.

Glad you found a solution that works for your needs, sorry you never realized your dream of owning a 24" cross cut RAS. It is a thing of beauty I can tell you. Set a few stops, quickly cross cut an entire lift of lumber or plywood to length. I think the only thing better is perhaps a jump saw?

At the risk...

Peter,
As you know, Sears/Emerson offers $100.00 for removing the motor
and retiring the tool that is the cause of many freaky accidents.
If the maker is offering rewards to stop using their tool,
imagine the cost of liability and the quality of life with less than 10 digits.

You may have the right training, luck, ability, knowledge, coordination, good luck, the correct common sense and the perfection needed to operate
one of the most dangerous tools ever made.


If one can manage not to pull a giant whirling blade directly into an appendage or otherwise violate every basic rule of shop safety the RAS is otherwise a fairly safe and usable tool.


Peter,
Look at the history of the RAS.
A tool was needed for cross cutting.
Easy to load and remove the wood.
Easy to operate. Easy to build one bridge to support the moving motor,
housing and blade, Easy to sell.
The only problem was that in order to make a flying saw safe, the supports and adjustments had to be super accurate, strong, stable and easy to adjust with few safety features do to almost fully exposed blade.

I bought my first RAS from SEARS 25-28 years ago.
The price was only $400.00
Please, don't tell me that a tool with a complex and demanding engineering
was/is safe to use. Some older industrial quality RAS was much safer than the "Sears/ Emerson" types RAS.
The only problem was $5.000.00 difference.
Imagine the shortcuts that they had to take in order to make the tool affordable to the innocent victims.
When we talk about RAS we have to separate the industrial designed tools from the $400.00 amputators.

[Burt Waddell]

You mean it has no blade? Because if it has a blade, it is not entirely safe. The only aspect of a RAS I find unsafe is the nut that connects the handle to the floor. When that gets loose things can get ugly. If one can manage not to pull a giant whirling blade directly into an appendage or otherwise violate every basic rule of shop safety the RAS is otherwise a fairly safe and usable tool.

Glad you found a solution that works for your needs, sorry you never realized your dream of owning a 24" cross cut RAS. It is a thing of beauty I can tell you. Set a few stops, quickly cross cut an entire lift of lumber or plywood to length. I think the only thing better is perhaps a jump saw?

Peter,

I expected you to be familiar with the Inca Radial Arm Saw. It is made in Austria and has a 26" cross cut capacity in its larger configuration. I believe it was imported and sold by Garrett Wade.

Since you are pushing the saw into the wood, the saw on the power bench does not self-feed like most radial saws tend to. I've owned a half dozen or so radials and seriously believe that the power bench is a far better tool. I'd like to see some of the radial arm saw users on this forum have the opportunity to spend a few days with a power bench.

Burt

[Peter Quinn]

Dino, You are kidding me right? A craftsman is barely a RAS and they should pay owners to throw them away. Did I indicate otherwise in some way? I helped my father throw his away and bought him a skill saw. I believe I am on record somewhere here on the creek saying that a GOOD RAS bought new these days will be one of the single most expensive tools in the shop for reasons you mentioned (engineering, build quality, training required to operate and tune one), not some cheap after thought. The used market is the only option for many, and no guarantees there. I have an industrial quality DeWalt in fine order, and the only luck involved in using it safely was its acquisition!

I understand you want to scare as many people as possible into thinking every tool in the shop is a horror and a danger EXCEPT a trac saw. I probably would too if I sold them. But operating a RAS without injury DOES NOT INVOLVE LUCK as you would insist. I am far more scared driving to work every day on the road with many people operating large machines called cars with frankly minimal training and often paying even less attention to what they are doing. If you want to put something on rails to make it safer AND quicker, try automobiles. And a novice should be afraid of a RAS, because it simply wont tolerate ignorance. Mine has a sign painted on it that reads "Warning, this tool is dangerous if used incorrectly, remove head from butt before use."

Burt, I am familiar with INCA but am certainly not an expert. I understood "small precise tools" to be their thing, didn't know they made a RAS, surprised it wouldn't hold its settings given their reputation for precision. I hear mostly about their TS and BS. Rest assured my iron behemoth does hold its settings. I am also familiar with the geometry of a skill saw, and having had a few come flying back at me. I'd argue they are no perfect situation either. I'm sure the track system improves the odds greatly, but lets not pretend one cannot be hurt with a skill saw. The danger is just a bit less obvious than with a RAS. Hand a moron a skill saw with a sharp blade, track guided or not, and believe me they can hurt themselves, though they stand a better chance there than with the RAS admittedly.

Do you suppose we will ever agree about this? I will say in all seriousness that every RAS fan I know still has all ten fingers, though in spite of this not all can count to ten!:D

[Stephen Edwards]

I wish that I could find just the right RAS for particular project. I need the vertical column, the rotating and tilt assembly that's mounted on the trolly. I don't want nor need the saw and the motor.

[Dino Makropoulos]

Dino, You are kidding me right? A craftsman is barely a RAS and they should pay owners to throw them away. Did I indicate otherwise in some way? I helped my father throw his away and bought him a skill saw. I believe I am on record somewhere here on the creek saying that a GOOD RAS bought new these days will be one of the single most expensive tools in the shop for reasons you mentioned (engineering, build quality, training required to operate and tune one), not some cheap after thought. The used market is the only option for many, and no guarantees there. I have an industrial quality DeWalt in fine order, and the only luck involved in using it safely was its acquisition!

Peter,
I haven't read your old posts and many people may get the wrong idea.
Now, the ( your ) information is updated and correct.
I agree with you here.

I understand you want to scare as many people as possible into thinking every tool in the shop is a horror and a danger EXCEPT a trac saw. I probably would too if I sold them. But operating a RAS without injury DOES NOT INVOLVE LUCK as you would insist. I am far more scared driving to work every day on the road with many people operating large machines called cars with frankly minimal training and often paying even less attention to what they are doing. If you want to put something on rails to make it safer AND quicker, try automobiles. And a novice should be afraid of a RAS, because it simply wont tolerate ignorance. Mine has a sign painted on it that reads "Warning, this tool is dangerous if used incorrectly, remove head from butt before use."

I think we agree here given the records and your naming of "after-toughts"
My RAS experience was a horror story.
New to woodworking with a new toy and a three car garage,
reading the instruction and test cutting some 2x's to learn the tool.
Yes, I was learning by using the tool and reading the manual the same time.
( The only problem was that they don't provide a Greek manual.):rolleyes:
I remember that it was Ok. to rotate the head and rip wood.
I even saw a picture of ripping with the RAS somewhere.
That was a very nice feature ,I thought at the time and I don't have to get a TS for my very first project.
I set my RAS for ripping and I rip my first piece with extreme caution.
What I liked about the ripping function of the RAS is that there wasn't a kickback scenario. The blade rotation either pulls the wood or moves the motor "with the blade".

To make the story short, the 2x4 had to be removed
with a hammer from the block wall and my son never knew what removed
a piece of his skull. (luckily, only hair and skin)





Burt, I am familiar with INCA but am certainly not an expert. I understood "small precise tools" to be their thing, didn't know they made a RAS, surprised it wouldn't hold its settings given their reputation for precision. I hear mostly about their TS and BS. Rest assured my iron behemoth does hold its settings. I am also familiar with the geometry of a skill saw, and having had a few come flying back at me. I'd argue they are no perfect situation either. I'm sure the track system improves the odds greatly, but lets not pretend one cannot be hurt with a skill saw. The danger is just a bit less obvious than with a RAS. Hand a moron a skill saw with a sharp blade, track guided or not, and believe me they can hurt themselves, though they stand a better chance there than with the RAS admittedly.

Do you suppose we will ever agree about this? I will say in all seriousness that every RAS fan I know still has all ten fingers, though in spite of this not all can count to ten!:D

Peter,
Don't put your well and hard earned knowledge in competition.
Let the facts to compete like in a car race.
Even then, luck can be a big part of the outcome.
My facts are different then yours and for you to post that I use
scare tactics to sell my tools is very scary given the facts that
my tools are re-opening up the woodworking classes
in many schools around the world.

Yesterday we had to make few (40 sets) 160 pieces total) of 3x4 Poplar legs for
a work table/ bench . I will post pictures in another thread and we can
"debate, compare" our ways, knowledge and tools with numbers.
Because, the bottom line after all is numeric.

enjoy the weekend.

[Burt Waddell]

Burt, I am familiar with INCA but am certainly not an expert. I understood "small precise tools" to be their thing, didn't know they made a RAS, surprised it wouldn't hold its settings given their reputation for precision. I hear mostly about their TS and BS. Rest assured my iron behemoth does hold its settings. I am also familiar with the geometry of a skill saw, and having had a few come flying back at me. I'd argue they are no perfect situation either. I'm sure the track system improves the odds greatly, but lets not pretend one cannot be hurt with a skill saw. The danger is just a bit less obvious than with a RAS. Hand a moron a skill saw with a sharp blade, track guided or not, and believe me they can hurt themselves, though they stand a better chance there than with the RAS admittedly.

Do you suppose we will ever agree about this? I will say in all seriousness that every RAS fan I know still has all ten fingers, though in spite of this not all can count to ten!:D

Peter,

There will always be room for debate when the Radial arm saw and a Rail System are involved. First we can agree that neither system it totally safe. Just the fact that the rail is holding the piece being cut in place is an advantage for the EZ setup. The EZ Bench can be constructed to allow unbelievable capacity. In standard form. you can align the wood in up to 48" width for cutting.

The efficiency of the EZ System is also influenced with the saw used. The 10"1/4" gives a cutting capacity of a little over 3".

You're happy with the Radial and I am happy with the EZ. What more could we want.


Burt

[Burt Waddell]

I understand you want to scare as many people as possible into thinking every tool in the shop is a horror and a danger EXCEPT a trac saw. I probably would too if I sold them. But operating a RAS without injury DOES NOT INVOLVE LUCK as you would insist. :D


Peter,

You and Dino can debate this as long as you wish. I just want to add a note in defense of Dino. I've been discussing tools - design, use, modification, etc with Dino for more than four years. When we first began, He was always asking me "Is it safe?" He continued that until he was absolutely sure that I had considered safety before presenting an idea to him. I can assure you that Dino's first concern is for safety.

Burt

[Peter Quinn]

Dino, My first RAS experience was nearly a horror story too. I had snuck into my grandfathers basement shop to get a look at what he was doing. I was 9 years old. He was ripping on a 10" DeWalt RAS with his back to me, the landing of the stairs were I was standing was maybe 15' to the infeed side of the saw? A sticker launched from the saw, passed so close to my face I could feel the breeze, and stuck in the mortar joint of the old rubble foundation. He turned to look and was shocked to see me standing there. Then he got real angry in a way only cranky old Swiss men seem able to and yelled "Can you read boy?" I looked down to see a sign painted in red on the floor where I was standing that said simply "Don't stand here". You won't find me ripping on a RAS, and when asked "Should I get a RAS" my answer is generally very guarded, they just aren't for everyone. Not a great first tool. Some RAS salesman I'd make.

The old system of education, the classes that DeWalt offered, the books that were available, it just doesn't exist anymore. Well some of the books still do. So how does one learn even the basics of adjusting and using a RAS? I read everything I could BEFORE turning on the saw. And all I do is cross cut. Very basic. 11 steps of adjustment that may have to be repeated three times in a circular fashion for a basic first set up. I'd guess your system is EZier?

But for rough cross cutting hardwood, in terms of speed, power and efficiency, a big RAS is nearly unparalleled. Period. I work in a production shop with a 16" DeWalt that cross cuts 28" to a depth of 5 3/8", I set it up, it is used only for rough lumber break down, you will never even come close to keeping up with any trac saw. And five steps down the production line the fine cross cutting will be handled by a euro slider, which is a very quick way to process parts of various dimensions in gross quantities. Of course all of this is irrelevant. Most people don't need that speed or capacity in a small shop. But it is out there.

My point? Bravo to you for setting up shops in schools. Kids should learn to make things in a way that minimizes the harm to them, most teenagers have NO BUSINESS playing with a RAS (I did when I was one, so believe me I speak from experience). In fact, kids should learn to make things period. And bravo to you for designing and selling a very versatile system that works well for many wood workers in many different situations. But I must always resist the insistence I see in yours many EZ disciples posts that the trac saw system is a better way to do every thing for every one in any situation, that every other method is unsafe to the point of playing roulette, and that those that haven't joined are in some way unenlightened. There is no competition between us, numbers are meaningless because I am not selling anything to anyone. I am hoping some day you will send me a free Ez system to shut me up. I love new toys.:D Till then I'll keep working wood with the old ones I have.

[Stephen Edwards]

I've enjoyed following this thread. I don't have either of the tools involved in this debate, though I did have a RAS years ago that I used for rough cutting to length and to cut framing lumber to finished lengths. It worked well for that. I never tried it for ripping, always have done that with a table saw. If I had room I'd probably have one for rough cutting to lengths. Since I don't, I do that with a circular saw.

Anyway, interesting thread to follow. For sure, I can say that I would NOT want to give up my TS!

[Dino Makropoulos]

A last thought on the RAS and blade spinning tools.

Negative blade rotation
If you try to cut backwards with a circular saw ,
you get the same reaction that you get from the RAS.
The saw tries to walk up to you and some times even fly.:eek:

Positive blade rotation
A forward cut with a circular saw is much better because the blade is forcing the materials upwards and against the saw base.

Same with the RAS and the newer cousin, the sliding miter saw.
If you pull the saw out without cutting, place your materials against the fence and cut by pushing the saw against the fence is much safer.
Actually this is what the RS and miter saw makers recommend.

The only problem here is that the blade is forcing the materials upwards and we need to apply downward pressure to the materials to keep them from flying around. (With the circular saw, we have the saw base acting like a clamp and keeping the materials from flying around)
With the RAS and miter saws we need to apply down pressure (to the materials) to counterbalance the forces of the spinning blade.

Good blades cut without much resistance and the cut is safer.
Only light pressure needed when we use good ( new) blades

Bad blades need more downward pressure to counter balance the
upwards forces created by the spinning blade cutting/pushing the materials upwards.

We cut aluminum, pastic, hardwoods and plywood every day.
The materials are under pressure at all times.
Pressured by the guide rail and by a special plate mounted
on the CS for the offcuts.
Similar to big industrial machinery that I had the luck to use for few years.
Equipped with spring loaded pressure plates or feed rollers.

The bottom line is to understand what can go wrong and prevent it from happening. If we visit a machine shop or an industrial woodworking plan, we will see that all equipments are some how equipped with mechanical
devices to balance the forces created by spinning blades and knifes.
Why not in light and DIY woodworking?

In most cases we can make DIY safety devices with extra materials and bolts laying around the shop.

Peter, I know that you know your tools and ways.
This post is for the newcomers to woodworking.
And to me...25 years later.:o