Hinge question

[John Loftis]

I'm stymied on the hinges for my entertainment center and would appreciate some help.

It's frameless, full overlay. Cabinet doors are 3/4" (19mm) thick. The problem is the panels are .825" thick (21mm, ~53/64"). I want the cabinet doors to be flush with the outer edge of the panel. I think (?) Blum hinges only allow a maximum overlay of 17mm. So I need 21 or 22mm but my understanding is I can only get 17 out of the Blum hinges.

The unit will have 3 doors butting up next to each other. I wanted to go with a European hinge that would kick out and allow the doors to be flush (or close to flush) with each other. I can still modify the design to create a larger reveal, but my preference would be for a mimimal gap between doors.

A friend suggested I rout the plate deeper into the panel. I'd really prefer not to do that. The carcass is glued up and I don't want to try to lay that beast on its side and do complicated routing.

I also like the idea of a concealed hinge. But if I need to go with a non-concealed hinge, I guess that could work.

There's a build thread in case what I'm saying doesn't make sense.

Appreciate the suggestions.

John

[Jamie Buxton]

Perhaps knife hinges would work for you. Or you could build out the side wall, and then use cup hinges designed for face-frame mounting.

You should include a link to your build thread.

[Ben Hatcher]

+1 on the knife hinge. They mount on the tops and bottoms of the doors and the pivot point sticks out a bit from the front of the door. They aren't completely hidden, but very little sticks out. Rockler carries them but doesn't have a picture of them installed.
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=262&filter=knife%20hinge

If you must use the euro hinges, maybe you can use a forstner bit and/or some hand tools instead of a router to deepen the pockets in your panels.

[Russ Kay]

Maybe you could use the Soss hinges?

[Adam Cavaliere]

I too was going to suggest Soss hinges, but the one problem is he will still need to route out the space for them. Just to see what we are talking about:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=268

[John Loftis]

You should include a link to your build thread.

Here it is: http://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=117291
Initial rendering in first post should give you a sense of what I'm doing. Lots of 'learning experiences' in subsequent posts.

Ben, I'm going to give the forstner bit idea a try on some scrap. If it doesn't look horrible, that might be a good way to go.

The problem with using hand tools (chisels) is I need to get a very even depth level so the plate seats cleanly. I'm not good enough with hand tools to do that yet.

Susso hinges look really neat, but that brings up the same router issue. Having a hard time visualizing the knife hinges. I'll try to find some other sites that might show them in action.

John

[Ben Hatcher]

Knife hinge mounts to the top and bottom edges of the door, instead of to the front or back face. Before you go drilling deeper holes in your cabinet, check out Rockler for different hinges. It sounds to me that your cups are mounted to the case. There are lots of styles of concealed full overlay hinges where the cup is cut into the back of the door and the clips are on the frame. Here's one from Rockler. http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5265&TabSelect=Details You may have to fill in the cup holes you've already cut, but that will certainly look better than ill fitting doors.

[Walter Plummer]

If you already have a sample of the hinge and mounting plate do a couple of mock ups. Sometimes you can increase the overlay but you have to radius the inside corner of the door (hinge side) for clearance. Also make sure you have the thinest mounting plate they supply. Good luck.

[Jamie Buxton]

... The problem with using hand tools (chisels) is I need to get a very even depth level so the plate seats cleanly. I'm not good enough with hand tools to do that yet...

Mortising in conventional leaf hinges has the same issue. I use a router, primarily because it gives a flat bottom. It does provide rounded corners on the recess, so a chisel squares them up. I like building a template to fit the hinge, so the recess fits exactly. In your situation, I'd use my little router -- a Bosch Colt -- because it would allow me to get the recess as close as possible to the top and bottom of the door.

[Caspar Hauser]

If you inlay the mounting plate into your cabinet, there is a chance that you will not be able to access the release lever at the back of the hinge proper.

I have seen 'Euro' hinges which had larger overlays, if I remember where I'll post. Meanwhile Blum.com may have something, though it's a confusing place.

CH

[John Coloccia]

I'm stymied on the hinges for my entertainment center and would appreciate some help.

It's frameless, full overlay. Cabinet doors are 3/4" (19mm) thick. The problem is the panels are .825" thick (21mm, ~53/64"). I want the cabinet doors to be flush with the outer edge of the panel. I think (?) Blum hinges only allow a maximum overlay of 17mm. So I need 21 or 22mm but my understanding is I can only get 17 out of the Blum hinges.

The unit will have 3 doors butting up next to each other. I wanted to go with a European hinge that would kick out and allow the doors to be flush (or close to flush) with each other. I can still modify the design to create a larger reveal, but my preference would be for a mimimal gap between doors.

A friend suggested I rout the plate deeper into the panel. I'd really prefer not to do that. The carcass is glued up and I don't want to try to lay that beast on its side and do complicated routing.

I also like the idea of a concealed hinge. But if I need to go with a non-concealed hinge, I guess that could work.

There's a build thread in case what I'm saying doesn't make sense.

Appreciate the suggestions.

John

Why not just use a different hinge that allows more overlay? Like these:

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=21311&TabSelect=Details

I've never used these, by the way, so I can't recommend them. Seems reasonable, though.

[John Loftis]

Thanks for all of your thoughts. I'm about to get back out in the garage and play with my scrap stock some more. Scrap is starting to look like Swiss cheese with all the holes.

I originally bought Blum 120 degree frameless full overlay hinges. They have a 0 plate. That's what I've been playing with.

John, the Salice hinges you referenced are for face frames. My application is frameless. Were you suggesting using the face frame hinges on my application? If the back of the plate is flat, that might actually work.

I talked to Rockler tech support (he was great). He said there are no frameless european hinges that allow a greater overlay than 3/4". He talked me through using a face frame hinge on a frameless application.

Ben, I didn't fully understand your post but I haven't mounted or cut anything in my entertainment center yet. Just working with mock-ups right now. It appeared that the hinges you were linking are similar to the ones I have, only it requires a smaller bore forstner bit and opens to 90 degrees as opposed to 120.

I have two full-size routers, no small router. I do have a rotozip with a jigsaw type plate on it that would allow me to get closer to the top and bottom of the carcass.

Big lesson-learned here is to conform to traditional sizes in cabinetry.

John

[John Coloccia]

John, the Salice hinges you referenced are for face frames. My application is frameless. Were you suggesting using the face frame hinges on my application? If the back of the plate is flat, that might actually work.


That's kind of what I was thinking. You're really going to have to use your judgement here, but I wasn't really seeing much of an issue with these particular hinges. There is an adjustment screw towards the back that might protrude beyond the base of the hinge. Maybe there's a little lip too that will get in the way. I don't know, but it's worth a look especially if the Rockler guys have it figured out already.

[Jamie Buxton]

John, the Salice hinges you referenced are for face frames. My application is frameless. Were you suggesting using the face frame hinges on my application? If the back of the plate is flat, that might actually work.


I've never noticed that line of Salice hinges before. They're not even on the Salice USA site. However, it appears that they're mounted to the inside edge of the face frame, not the front face. That is, they should work for your application.

Mounting to the inside edge and getting 1 3/8" overlays seems magic. If the hinge pivot is near the inside face of the cabinet, like in most cup hinges, the outboard tip of the door would collide with the cabinet when the door gets opened. However, here's a pic of the 1 3/8" overlay hinge on a different site: http://www.cabinetparts.com/m/salice/hinges-european/hinges-salice/excenthree-ff/SHCSP3CXR/#general . You can see that there's a long arm which puts the hinge cup is close to the door edge, so this collisions doesn't happen.

[John Loftis]

Update. After creating my 12th mock-up, it seems like I can get away with a greater bore distance than 6MM. This is going to sound a little anal retentive, but for whatever reason, a 0.28" bore distance seemed to get me to home plate on the mock-up (with adjustment screws tweaked all the way out).

With these hinges, I am now the pig (committed) rather than the chicken (involved). I've drilled one hole so far, and will let you all know if it works once I get the LOML to duct tape our children to some immovable object so she can escape and help me line up the next drill hole.

If you hear echoes of cursing from the D/FW area, you'll know that my mock-ups didn't work.

John

[John Loftis]

It worked! The math doesn't work out at all, but I ain't arguing. Boring the hole 1/32" deeper shouldn't have resulted in 5/64" more overlay... but it did.

Thanks for the help.

John

[Steve Jenkins]

Looks like a good job John. Mockups are definately the way to go. Theory is fine but seeing it work and tweaking in the physical world is definitive.
By the way the temp up here in the northwest, north of Seattle is high around 70 or a bit less.