Combination Machines

[Charlie Plesums]

My wife and I went to the IWF show in Atlanta. I drolled slightly at the sliding table saws, but she fell in love with the combo machines - even gave her approval for a high end machine before I knew if I wanted to ask. (Lucky, aren't I)

I build cabinets and furniture in my garage - space is an issue. I can get great accuracy with my cheap equipment, but it takes a LOT of time - and I may retire to professional woodworking. The combo machines - sliding table saw with scoring, tilting shaper, thickness planer, wide jointer, mortiser seem to offer tremendous quality and speed. Outside of take-your-breath-away cost for buying so many good machines at once, are there any reasons to avoid the combos?

At the moment I am considering MiniMax, Robeland, Knapp, Felder. Feedback on these? Others that should be considered?

[Chris Padilla]

Charles,

Welcome to the forum. You'll get a mulitude of opinions on that rather innocent question you just asked. MiniMax is local to you...go with them! :)

I have a 16" J/P combo machine being shipped to me right now from MiniMax in Austin.

I've also had the chance to play with both Felder and MiniMax sliders. Wow...they are accurate and they are awesome! They are also huge...you need space to run one. As it is, this aircraft carrier of a J/P I have coming will be rather large for my garage shop (see my Padilla's garage gut...rather lenghty thread).

You really need to see these items in person to get a feel for how big they are and how much room they take up. If I had the space, I would go for a MiniMax slider/shaper as one machine and J/P as the other machine and not have the 5 in 1 or 4 in 1...that just seems like too much stuff all clustered together. Even then, some folks like having separate jointers and planers, too, but if I wanted a nice wide jointer, the J/P fits my garage space just barely. :)

[John Shuk]

I know Laguna has a great video showing the machines in use. It shows the flexibility that they give you. Mini-Max also has a good video with Mark Duginske that is first rate. I realize that the goal is to sell you on a combo machine and they do a great job of doing it.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I see no reason not to buy the combo machines you mentioned. I've heard noithing but good things from the crew here at SMC about them. I hope someday to have a shop full of high end machines, they make life easier when woodworking!

[Mike Cutler]

Charlie. Welcome to the creek, It's really nice to meet you. I can't really think of a reson to "avoid" a combo. I think if one fits your style of woodworking that's great. Some people prefer the individual machines to minimize setup time between operation, but if it's just you and you're in no real hurry then a combo could work fine.
There was an article in one of the woodworking mag's a year or two ago that compared the relative features of the current machines available. If you could find that it may help you decide.
Chris has some valid points about combining "combo" machines, and about how big they are. They are big,and heavy. If you are close to Mini-max you may want to give them a real hard look, simply for the close proximity in the event of a repair/ or needing a part.
One more machine to add to the list is the Altendorf(Spelling?) It's another combo machine out there.
Once again, welcome and have fun looking, and certainley let us know what you decide on

[Jim Becker]

I have to agree with Chris...Mini Max would be an excellent choice to start out looking at since they are just around the corner. There are some GREAT folks working there who live in your community. I've had the pleasure of meeting a number of them at various shows as well as having dinner with Jim Strain (pres) and Michael Kahn while down that way on business last year. Rob, the technician is great and a long-time Mini Max user, Sam, just moved to Austin to join the team as both a great resource and a knowledgable woodworker. You just can't beat that.

I'm also a satisfied customer with two Mini Max machines in my shop (MM16 and FS350 J/P) and a future itch for a slider, probably the ST3 Smart saw/shaper combo.

This is not saying you shouldn't also consider Felder, etc., but in my opinion, checking out the local folks makes a whole lot of sense for you in particular.

BTW, the review article on combos that was refered to in another post was Fine Woodworking...February 2003. If you don't have that issue, the article reprint is available on the Mini Max site.

[markus shaffer]

Charlie,

I have a couple Felder combo machines.. The KF700 sliding saw with a shaper and an AD751 jointer/planer.. Both are pretty amazing machines.. Having a shop in Manhattan means that I have pretty limited space which is why I went with combo machines.

With Felder, you get a choice of lengths with the sliders on the saw.. I went with the 8 foot for my shop.. It's pretty tight, but I can rip an 8' sheet of plywood on the slider no problem.. The saw is an awsome machine and compared to the PM 66 that it replaced, there is no comparison. They are just completely different beasts. As for having a shaper in the machine, I have not enjoyed using it so much as I had hoped. The fence has to be removed and replaced as needed when going between the saw and shaper functions.. The shaper fence is pretty heavy.. You really want to plan things well when working with these machines as it takes time and can be a bit of a pain changing between the functions.. However, when I was figuring out costs on this machine, the price difference between having the shaper and not was going to be a little over $2000.. I certainly wasn't going to be able to buy a shaper the quality of a Felder later on for that little which is why I went with the combo.. That being said, the KF machine is a monster and I don't think you can find anything comparable in the price range.

As for the jointer/planer combo.. I had initially planned to buy a 16" machine, floorspace being at a premium and all.. They had just changed the models when I was looking into them and it turned out that last year's 20" machine would cost me less than the newer 16".. So I went ahead with the 20".. As with the saw/shaper, this machine is also pretty amazing.. I've added a power feeder to the jointer and it has easily chewed through several thousand board feet of mahogany, cherry and hard maple with no problem.. There is a choice of motors on the machine.. I think mine has the base 5.5 hp motor and it has not had a problem at all with anything I've fed through it.. I ran a couple 16"-18" wide mahogany boards through it no problem.. Although I haven't had to change blades yet, the Felder cutterblock has permanant placement for the blades which makes for real easy blade changes.. I always hated changing blades on my old DJ-20. The Felder blades are two sided and disposable.. They offer several different cutterblocks for the Felder, so you should put some thought into which would be right for you. Changing from jointer to planer takes less than a minute if you opt for the motor drive on the planer bed.. Word of advice, get the motor drive..

With Felder there are so many options for the machines that I could go on for quite a long time.. The main point is that these machines are no nonsense and you will not regret going with them if you decide to go this route.. They are a serious investment but, in my opinion, a huge leap forward from what the likes of Delta, Jet, Powermatic and others are offering these days.

-Markus

[Jamie Buxton]

Charlie --
I'm a partial-combo owner; I have a Hammer jointer/thicknesser. The downside to combo machines is the change-over time. You have to reconfigure the combo almost every time you do a different operation. That's bad enough, but if you don't always think ahead, you'll have to reconfigure it to do just one operation you forgot on one board, and then go back. If you have separate machines, you save the change-over time, all the time. Me, if I had more space, I'd go for separate machines entirely.
If I were considering spending the price of a big combo machine, and if I had the land, I'd put the dough into expanding my workshop. More floor space would make a much bigger improvement in my shop than would a Rolls-Royce of a combo machine.
Yes, the high-end combos are quality machines, but it is worthwhile to separate the two concepts. You can have quality machinery without having to subscribe to the combo concept too.

Jamie

[Paul B. Cresti]

Charlie,
Being a newly established pro, I changed over from the "American" machines to the "European" style. I own three MM machines - T50n (shaper), FS41 (16" j/p) and the S315w slider. All I can say is once set up these machines are beyond accurate, they are more like metalworking machinery. I am more than pleased with MM as a company. They are truly a great group to work with. They stand behind there product and help you anyway they can. Just an example of what kind of company/personel they are: My wife and I recently had our third child, well guess who sent me a congrats card! yup you guessed it, the entire staff from MM. It is these "little" things that set them apart. As far as I am concerned I am a MM customer/supporter for life.

As far as combos: the j/p so far is great. some people complain about the 'switch' but it takes all of two minutes, plus the planning table has a numeric readout that you can easily return to. The great things about these combos is the quality of machines you get. You will need though significant clear floor space in the middle of your shop. Another option is to buy broken down combos like others have suggested (j/p and saw/shaper). Let me now if want any machine specific questions answered.

[Steven Wilson]

Narrow your choices down to 2; Felder and MiniMax. They're both excelent machines with many options at different price points. I went with a Minimax CU350 combo and it was a fantastic upgrade over the Powermatic 66 tablesaw, Powermatic 60 jointer, and Dewalt planer that it replaced. If you go the euro combo route you'll also need a proper DC system (i.e. an Oneida 2HP cyclone or better), and you'll need to consider the logistics of moving the beast around (2000 lbs isn't trivial). There are very active Felder and MiniMax user groups on Yahoo if you want to research your choices and ask users.

[Dennis Peacock]

Stay away from the Robland combo machine. They haven't made enough improvements in them to warrant a very satisfied customer. Don't get me wrong, It's a very good machine....but it lacks nice things like a "nice" tablesaw fence and a decent fence setup for the shaper. I should know, I have a Robland and have liked it pretty much except for the TS fence setup and I hate the shaper fence setup. Both fences are hard to get setup just right and will take a good bit of time to get it where you need it.

Go with MM or Felder....You can't go wrong with either one.

[Bill Grumbine]

Hi Charlie

I will pile on the Minimax bandwagon here. I am a professional woodworker, who has tons of space. Unfortunately, most of it is not in the shop. Last year if you had asked me, I had reached the apex of my tool buying, and had the best money could buy. I am currently using a Delta unisaw, Rockwell 8" jointer, blah blah blah. These are all fine tools, and do very nice work, but I was straining at the seams of my shop.

After talking to some people and looking at the machines, I decided to buy a Minimax CU300 Smart. It makes more room in my shop by taking up less room and putting all the long stuff (ripping, jointing, and planing) in a single corridor. If I need to, I can move the machine around to make room for the turning demonstrations I do from time to time.

You are right about the price, but at least with Minimax, you can save a bit by doing what a lot of us have done, and that is buy a show machine. Last November I put my money down to buy this November's machine. It will be a demo, and as such it may have a ding or two in it, but it comes with the full warranty, all its parts, and best of all it comes without shipping expenses, this year's price increase, plus a few other incentives. It will not be encased in thousands of gallons of cosmoline, having been cleaned up for the show. That in itself is quite a value. I have been patiently waiting all year, but for the past couple of weeks I have been feeling like a little kid in the weeks before Christmas when I asked "Santa" for something really special.

As an added bonus for you, the Minimax people are right in your back yard, 2012 Centimeter Cirrcle, Austin TX. What more could a man want? :D Good luck with your decision.

Bill

[Mark J Bachler]

I'll second what Paul said. I have a feeling that MM & SCM in general may have some real good deals in the near future.

[Mike Weaver]

Hi Charlie,
Well, I'm NOT a professional WW, nor do I own a combo (yet), but I have sen a 300 Classic in person and it is an impressive machine!

I have been following the MM Users Group on Yahoo for some time and you could not ask for a better bunch of folks - both users and MM reps.

Isn't the MM significantly less expensive than the Felder? (like on the order of ~$10,000???). :cool:

Combine that with the great Fine Woodworking review and I'm VERY inclined to go with MM when I finally do get a combination machine.

Good luck with your decision and please let us know what you decide.

-Mike
PS I've been reading SMC for a while, but decided to finally register.
This is a great community!! :)

[Tyler Howell]

Welcome Charlie, The Creek is a great place to hang out. The owners and users have spoken......I just hate to reconfigure a machine:o . I like to perform my task and step to the next machine. Good luck on your journey.;)

[Bill Grumbine]

Several people have mentioned the task of reconfiguring a combo machine, and I have a few thoughts I would like to express. Keep in mind that this is all very subjective to a point, and differing work habits may affect the overall amount of time saved or spent. I thought about the reconfiguring issue quite a bit while contemplating my decision to buy this machine. I cannot write with experience yet, since I do not have it yet, but I will offer my thought process for what it is worth.

My shop has three principal stand alone machines, the tablesaw, the jointer, and the planer (for flatwork that is!). Because of the individual designs, plus the layout of the shop, these three necessarily occupy three different lanes, or corridors. Also, because of the varying amount of use each one gets, they are not necessarily in the "use" position. The tablesaw is of course, and the jointer does not really move, but I will say more on that in a moment. The planer lives on a roll out table, tucked up against the wall, as it is not used often enough and it is not big enough to warrant dedicated space all around.

The tablesaw has many acres of space on top, and that space is used all the time for, well, anything that needs setting down. If I have to saw a big piece of anything, I need to move turnings, tools, whatever. Perhaps if I were neater, that wouldn't be the case, but I am not neater, and I do not see any conversion to neatness anytime in the future. So when I need to do some sawing operations on the TS, it has a "reconfigure time", although for narrow boards that are not too long, it is not a problem. If they are long though, I often need to clear the bench behind me to accomodate their length.

The jointer will handle anything up to 15' long, although in practical use I have never had occasion to joint anything longer than 8'. Again, it needs to be "reconfigured". What that means is getting all the stuff from the lathe out of the way, and rolling the bandsaw out of the path of travel for longer boards. Again, shorter boards do not present this problem, but it occurs often enough to make it a consideration.

The planer takes the most time of all, since it is tucked up against the wall. I often have to clear the pathway to handle the length of boards being planed, plus pivot the table out into the room, so on and so forth. Then I need to put it back so that it is out of the way of the door. It also occupies the space where my spray booth is, so there is another reconfiguration.

So when I thought about it long enough, I already spend plenty of time reconfiguring things. A combo machine is going to take three lanes of travel for wood operations and condense them down into one. Along with some other changes I will be making, I will no longer have to rely on clearing off the bench behind the saw to accomodate 8' pieces of anything. I will also have more wall space to build storage for things that are out now, so who knows, maybe I will become neater. Don't stand on one foot waiting though! :p

All in all, when these things are taken into consideration, I will probably see a net decrease in time spent configuring and reconfiguring machines. Others may differ in work habits, etc, but in all the shops I have visited, it seems like there are more people out there like me than not. :eek:

Bill

[Jim Becker]

I just hate to reconfigure a machine . I like to perform my task and step to the next machine. This was one of my original concerns, Tyler, when I was looking at the FS350. But honestly, I use the jointer far more often than the planer function...the former tends to be "frequent ad-hock use" and the latter tends more to be batch-oriented. With changeover time at about a minute to two minutes, even with the manual planer bed crank, I've decided from experience that the "changeover time" objection is not all that real for this particular tool. I also look at that time as an often needed break that although short, can be beneficial from a safety standpoint...it paces you.

I think for me, I'd be less happy with a full combo, such as the CU300, however. My ideal "combination of combination" is likely the J/P combo with a sliding saw/shaper combo. This is probably a worthy choice for a two-person workshop, too, given that it offers some separation of function that allows two people to be working simultaniously. This is an important factor in machine choice for a pro shop...multiple people really dictates separate machines when you get more than two folks working if you want to maintain productivity. And productivity needs to be the bottom line for folks with their income on the line...a key reason to consider the technology that these Euro-designed machines offer. IMHO, of course...:rolleyes:

{edit} And Bill makes some incredibly good points...we all have "setup and changover" time in whatever shop/tool combination we currently use! It's human nature. Everyone knows that our shops really don't look as pristine as they do in "shop tour" pictures, even if one is anal enough to pick up at the end of the day...;)

[Steven Wilson]

Isn't the MM significantly less expensive than the Felder? (like on the order of ~$10,000???). The Felder and MiniMax machines are generally configured a bit differently so it's hard to compare the price of a Felder to a Minimax in a similar size (let's say 12" J/P 8' TS). The best comparison I could make is a roughly $5,000 difference between comparably configured machines. Felder has a much longer option list than the MiniMax and for me the decision point was am I willing to pay for the options I think I need. Eventually I choose a machine with fewer options and it made more sense to choose a MiniMax. Since you're considering droping some serious coin on them you should take your time and see both machines in person. Felder and MiniMax will help you find customers that will be willing to show you their machines in person.

[Mike K]

Welcome to the Creek,
Being rather new to the creek myself I have found nothing but great advice and friendly people here. I saw a review of the combination machines you are looking at in either fine woodworking or woodworker's journal about 3 months ago. They had a great write up about the machines and showed the pros and cons on each machine (ie: dust collection, time to change machines, mobility and the like). While a review is only one step in determining which machine would be right for you it does serve well im finding the little intangables about a machine that you might not consider.

Good luck with your purchase and be sure to post pictures when you get the machine. We like to drool over shiny tools.

Mike-in-Havertown
President,
People for the Ethical Treatment of Mike-in-Havertown

[Frank Pellow]

Welcome to the Creek,
Being rather new to the creek myself I have found nothing but great advice and friendly people here. I saw a review of the combination machines you are looking at in either fine woodworking or woodworker's journal about 3 months ago. They had a great write up about the machines and showed the pros and cons on each machine (ie: dust collection, time to change machines, mobility and the like). While a review is only one step in determining which machine would be right for you it does serve well im finding the little intangables about a machine that you might not consider.

Good luck with your purchase and be sure to post pictures when you get the machine. We like to drool over shiny tools.

Mike-in-Havertown
President,
People for the Ethical Treatment of Mike-in-Havertown

Mike, I have not seen that before. By "that" I mean someone using thier first post to welcome someone else to Saw Mill Creek. Welcome yourself!

I like the fact that you are the president of the group looking out for the ethical treatment of you.

Also, you should change your profile to provide your full surname.

[Tyler Howell]

Welcome Mr President!;)

[Michael Perata]

Charlie

I have a Mini-Max CU 300 Smart Combo machine and really like its fit/finish and usability. I would buy it again.

I looked at the Felder line and it is a cut above Mini-Max, but the difference in price didn't justify the additional quality.

My sales guy at Mini-Max is Michael Kahn. Very knowledgeable, easy to work with and follows up.

[Christian Aufreiter]

One more machine to add to the list is the Altendorf(Spelling?) It's another combo machine out there.


If I remember correclty, Altendorf doesn't produce any combo machines. They invented the "Formatkreissäge" (Euro style slinding table saw) and still focus on this type of machine.

Regards,

Christian

[Jim Becker]

My sales guy at Mini-Max is Michael Kahn. Very knowledgeable, easy to work with and follows up.
Ditto. Great guy.

[Steve Stube]

I don't know if this machine is still available new. I do know where a used one resides, in my shop. It is a great machine IMHO and would be just the ticket for a weekend WW with cramped quarters. I had the individual machines when I bought this but its portable feature sold me for taking it to a job site and moving from place to place on the site. They came in different sizes with this being the largest portable. You flip up the jointer/planer extensions and can wheel it thru doorways.

There is no change over time unless you count changing from a 12" blade to a 16" blade when not using the miter slide and wanting to cut reeealy deep.

If anyone else has one or knows if they are available, I'd like to hear from you.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/ceethese/Posted%20photos/CKMwoodworker.jpg

[Steve Jenkins]

I'll join in on the minimax or felder. Both are excellent machines. I would go with the saw-shaper and jointer-planer combos. When you look at them seriously look at getting at least an 8' slider. If you do any panel work at all being able to put a full sheet on the slider and deal with it easily is a great benefit. You will find out that using a slider is a completely new way of using a saw but it's one you get used to pretty quickly. Most of your work is done by placing the stock on the slider and pushing it past the blade rather than using a rip fence. Steve

[Jim Becker]

You will find out that using a slider is a completely new way of using a saw but it's one you get used to pretty quickly. Most of your work is done by placing the stock on the slider and pushing it past the blade rather than using a rip fence.
And Mr. Steve knows this from good experience...he has the "Mother of all Sliders" in his shop!!:eek: :D

[Ian Barley]

Welcome to the Creek.

I probably come from a different perspective to many. Combo machines are much more common over here in the Uk although probably more so among hobbyists than pros. That said, the jointer/planer ( we call it a planer/thicknesser) combo is so common that I don't really even think of it as a combination machine.

I think that Jim's point about this machine is absolutely correct. Planing is usually easy to arrange as a batchwise process and therefore the changeover is no trouble most of the time, especially where accurate readout of the planing thickness is available.

I have more reservations about some of the other combinations and real concerns about Heinz 57 style combinations. As a pro, setup time is cash burned. Because most of my work is repetition this is particularly sensitive to me but may be less important in a custome woodwork shop. I personally feel that the ability to walk up to a machine and do the task is very important to me. The idea of having to change configurations has always made me fight shy of combos. I suspect that the higher end stuff where each function gets its own motor is better but the low end where pulleys are being swapped off a single motor is never going to get my vote.

Bill's points about layout though are very valid. His "lanes of travel" concept is spot on and I can easily see how the combination could work, even though it will require a disciplined working schedule.

I can definitely cast a vote for the "slider". My TS has a built in sliding table. Although it is not at the quality level of Minimax/Felder etc I am convinced that it is a major benefit in time and safety.

I was also interested in the idea of "retiring" to professional woodworking. Since I made the change a few years ago I am a lot less "retired" than I have been at any point in my life!

[Frank Pellow]

I don't know if this machine is still available new. I do know where a used one resides, in my shop.

...



That looks like a very old ad. I would guess that it is out of the 1950s. How old is your machine Steve?

[Steve Stube]

Frank, I actually bought the machine new about 78 or 79 IIRC. The photo was touched up after it went through a flood in 1986 when I lost a wealth of my machinery literature (6 file cabinet drawers full). This photo and the spec sheet was all I could save from the manual for this machine.

[Rob Russell]

Charlie,

I'm a Felder owner, with a big jointer/planer and saw/shaper, plus standalone mortiser and dust collector. The fit and finish of the machines is awesome.

It is definitely true that you can spend more on the Felder, partly because they offer a range of options that the MiniMax doesn't. The Felder's also go larger. For example, my jointer/planer is a 20", which is 4" larger than the largest MiniMax offers at 16". Do I really need a 20" j/p? Probably not. Was LOML gonna let me get away with "Gee honey, I bought this 12" or 16" j/p a few years ago, but it really isn't big enough so I want to upgrade ..."? No way. I had one shot to do this, so I basically went top of the line. That included a whole slew of options on the machines, like keypad driven raise and lower on the j/p table. Changeover from jointer to planer means pushing a few buttons and waiting for the table to raise to my set point while I lift up the jointer tables and then swing the dust hood over. The shaper has digital height setting, although the version I got isn't keypad entry.

The Felder machines can be broken down to fit through a 30" door. That may be important to you. I had to get my machines down into a basement. As proof of that, I offer the attached pictures (I'm the goofy-looking guy in the maroon t-shirt). Because your shop is in the garage, this is probably not an issue and I'd guess that if you ever move you'll go to a place with good access. Still, if the ability to get through tight spaces with the machines is important, the Felder has advantages.

Knapp is also a high-end brand priced similarly to the Felder, but I'd spend some serious time trying to locate some support resources before I committed to buying their equipment. The Knapp brand has apparently cycled through a few different owners over the past decade or 2. The Robland/Laguna brand - I won't bash them, but would also spend some serious time looking at available support.

Now - MiniMax. If I weren't going to buy a Felder, I'd buy a MM. To me, that's sort of like going from a Mercedes to an Audi. Either one is way better than a Chevy Cavalier. I would strongly recommend that you join the 2 Yahoo Groups: Felder Owners Group and MiniMax owners Group. The FOG and MOG are both extremely important in terms of after sale service for whichever machine you buy and getting the most out of your purchases. The FOG has been around for several years and there are some extremely talented folks who have made FOG-built accessories. The MOG is newer and has had a little more focus on the bandsaws, but that's because the MM bandsaws sell so well. I will admit that the FOG has a crowd of folks who are pretty anal about dialing their machines in accurately and keeping them that way. The FOG and MOG are on "friendly" terms and really don't go around bad-mouthing each others' machines. There are folks who post on both; at least a couple of FOG'rs have posted on the MOG with some of the ideas that they have developed over the years to make using a slider/combo better. One great tip I got from the FOG was buying a narrow fork pallet jack to move the machines around. The forks slide into a channel underneath the machines and it's way easier to move them that way than with the mobility kits.

As a summary, I'd go with either the MM or Felder. If you are looking for a "basic" combination machine, the MM will be less expensive. If you want convenience or performance features, the Felder offers far more customizability. Ordering a Felder combo, even a "semi-combo" j/p or saw/shaper is like ordering a car. Buying a pair of them costs like a car. DAMHIKT. Felder also offers a "commissioning" option, where a factory technician comes out and sets up/dials in your machine in your shop. that's probably the best value Felder offers, especially if you're not the kind of person who really likes to fuss with machinery - you just want it to work.

Good luck on your decision.

Rob

[Jim Becker]

Great pics, Rob, and excellent information. (And now I KNOW I need to visit on my next trip up your way...which if things work out will be in about two weeks...argh...argh...argh...)

[Paul B. Cresti]

Rob,
You are correct.As a MM owner I strongly back my machines, but I will whole heartily admitt Felder has a lot of extra refinements. They truly are "beautiful" machines. You can not go wrong with either brand. Good luck with your beasts!

[John Renzetti]

Rob, Great pics, that's the first time I think I've seen these. Glad you are taking care of what was supposed to be "my" AD751. :)
Getting back to what combo. I own a bunch of Felder machines. They are not cheap but you get what you pay for. One of the big factors besides the quality is that the machine can be configured any way you want. With all the options and accessories the machine can get built for exactly the way you work.
Best bet is to look at both machines again close up. Talk to owners in their shops. Then there is that intangible factor I call "the warm and fuzzy" feeling about a particular machine. About 7 years ago I got that for the Felder, which was the jointer/planer AD741. True is was a few thousand more than anything comparable but I just had to have it.
Have fun making your choice.
take care,
John

[Rob Russell]

One other comment I forgot to make about the FOG and MOG groups. They are "private", which means you have to register to even read the posts. Don't let that scare you away. Each group welcomes potential buyers, not because the FOG/MOG are sales oriented, but because the FOG/MOG owners like to share info about their machines. It's highly recommended that you read through posts in the forums before buying. That's especially true on the FOG, where the number of options available on the machines can be a bit daunting, and getting info about which options are worthwhile is valuable. You will see gripes about problems, too. Felder owners aren't shy about posting when they think they have a problem that should be rectified quickly. There is a generally a followup post about how the Felder service folks came through for them.

[Rob Russell]

Rob, Great pics, that's the first time I think I've seen these. Glad you are taking care of what was supposed to be "my" AD751. :)
John

JR,

Those pics are actually posted in my folder on the FOG. "Your" AD751P looks like it just left the factory! ;)

The story here, folks, is that when I ordered the machine I was trying to get delivery before snowfall so I could get the machines into my basement before things got messy outside. John had a machine configured exactly the same as what I was ordering "on the boat" (literally). He let me take the earlier machine and he took "my" machine which came in a couple of months later. He was upgrading from a 16" to the 20" machine, so had a machine to use while waiting for the new one. As is usual, nothing happens quickly with custom stuff coming from overseas, so the machines didn't even arrive for delivery to me until January. You can see from my pix that there was snow on the ground by then - about 2 feet.

Rob

[Chris Padilla]

My goodness, Rob, how the heck did you ever get those beasts into your basement!? It looks a little like a snake swallowing a whole cow! ;)

Any pics of your shop...a little tour, perhaps? How about an avatar? :D

[Rob Russell]

My goodness, Rob, how the heck did you ever get those beasts into your basement!? It looks a little like a snake swallowing a whole cow! ;)


The simple answer is "gravity"!

In the second picture, if you look to the right of the jointer/planer, you can see a section of 2" square tube stock (1/4" thick walls). A pair of those run from the top of the hatchway landing down to the basement floor. They function as rails. I drilled holes in concrete with my trusty rotary hammer, inserted lead lag shields and 1/2" lag bolted cleats to the floor and a mounting board across the top of the hatchway.

In the first picture, you can see that the jointer/planer is mounted on a wooden sled. The flat 2x6's on the bottom of the sled slide down the rails. Also in the first picture, on the very far right you can see a yellow plastic "thing" and what looks like 2 wires. Those are part of a winch. To the right, off camera, a winch mounted on a piece of Unistrut was mounted on a sawhorse. I ran a series of those 2" tie down straps (the big ones truckers use to tie down loads on flatbed trailers) back to an 18" birch tree that's straight out from the hatchway. The purpose of the winch was to control the slide of the machines, down the rails into the basement. I used a come-a-long down in the basement to crank the machines down the stairs. Once the machines were over the 1/2-way tipped point, gravity did the rest. Let the winch out slowly and catch the machine on my pallet jack in the basement.

It sounds simple, but it did take a fair amount of prep. Total cost was about $250 in materials. The professional rigging estimate would have been at least $4K, partly because I had to do some disassembly of the machinery to fit through the door width.

[Frank Pellow]

Rob, I was impressed with the pictures of that big machine "sliding" into your basement. Now that I hear how you rigged everything up, I am even more impressed.

[Charlie Plesums]

Thanks to all for the input, especially the details from Felder users Markus Shaffer and Rob Russell. For anyone interested in the mid-point, here is an update on my search...

I joined both the Felder and MiniMax discussion groups a couple weeks ago, but haven't had time to read back into their archives very far.

My primary focus has been narrowed to MiniMax and Felder, in part because of the recommendations from this forum. The others haven't been ruled out, but have been moved to the b-list

The fact that MiniMax is local hasn't been lost on me. In fact, my rep lives a few blocks from me and has offered to drop over any time I have a question, including nights and weekends. How's that for "on site support?"

Felder is pretty frustrating. I talked to someone but "he didn't cover my area." Three tries later I talked to the person who does cover my area, asking for prices on a new machine, info on the used machine listed on their web site, and a contact where I could visit a machine locally (long story, but somehow I missed Felder at IWF). I have not gotten the catalog promised, nor prices, nor a contact for a visit. Not looking good for Felder support in our area, at least from the sales perspective! I would hate to make a decision this big based on poor sales support, but it may come to that.

The several people who have separate machines, and those who recommend how Felder can be split into two, also have me considering two combo machines. That would also allow me to get the saw/shaper now, and continue to use my cheap jointer, lunch box planer, and hollow chisel mortiser for the time being, perhaps reducing the sticker shock a little.

[Jim Becker]

The fact that MiniMax is local hasn't been lost on me. In fact, my rep lives a few blocks from me and has offered to drop over any time I have a question, including nights and weekends. How's that for "on site support?" "Local" for CS at MM doesn't seem to matter. One two occasions I posted a question about an issue with a new machine on MOG and got a call within an hour or two...both times on a Saturday night...by someone who was not involved in my transactions (a Californian, too), but wanted to help out. Rob, the technician, has also walked me through an adjustment on the J/P late on a Saturday afternoon. The fact that you are local to them is icing on the cake.

BTW, who's the rep who is "almost your neighbor"?

[Chris Padilla]

Felder is pretty frustrating...Not looking good for Felder support in our area, at least from the sales perspective! Charlie,

I'm not trying to bash Felder but I have a friend who ended up selling his Felder J/P due to poor CS. He just couldn't get the support he needed and ended up very frustrated. So that experience along with the vast price difference sent me towards MiniMax and come Monday morning, I'll have a 1/2 ton FS41 Elite (16" J/P) sitting in my driveway.

He also got tired of moving the table for the change-over from J to P and back again and ended up purchasing separate machines, too. I do not have the room for two large items like a jointer and planer and it will be nice having the two machines of the same width, too.

The slider/shaper combo would be a sweet, sweet machine. The sliders are something else. I've seen the MM and Felders and they are so nice. The only problem is that you need some serious space to effectively use them in. I have a sweet J/P now but if I ever move, the size of shop I can have will serious impact what I buy and a slider will be high on the list.

Good Luck to you...your location just screams dealing with MM. I've been working with Dain Kirkpatrick as my rep...again, a nice guy who responds quickly to email inquiries.

[Martin Shupe]

I took a class with Kelly Mehler this summer, and most of his big machines are Felder. He even went to Europe to tour the factory. He does have one old Oliver jointer, but the rest of the big stuff is Felder.

I have a MM bandsaw, which I am very happy with, but there were some things on the Felders that got my attention. Like being able to set the planer thickness to .005", for example. Don't worry about change over, it is a non event.

Long range, (like when I make wide-body Captain), I'll be looking for a 20 inch jointer planer combo, and maybe even later, a sliding saw. Hmm, maybe Felder for the 20" JP, and MM for the slider?

Anyway, if you have any questions about the Felders, I am sure Kelly would be happy to help you out. If you don't know already, Kelly is a tablesaw safety guru, and prefers the European style machines for their safety features.

His email is kelly@kellymehler.com

Don't forget to let us know your decision and how you came to it.

[John Renzetti]

Chris wrote "I'm not trying to bash Felder but I have a friend who ended up selling his Felder J/P due to poor CS. He just couldn't get the support he needed and ended up very frustrated."

Hi Chris, I'm not bashing MM but I know a guy that didn't like the way he got treated at MM and sold his 315 saw and got a Felder Format Kappa 40. Is that an indictement of MM, of course not. But you can see where something like this can go. Your friend may have had what he thought was less than top notch support, or he may have just wanted to sell the machine and get separates since that is what he is more comfortable with. No company is perfect but I know Felder tries and MM tries. Even Laguna who seems to take a bashing on their own website, has made a good effort at getting customer service in the forefront.
I did some checking and found that Charley was sent a catalog right away but a typo in the address caused it to be sent back. Another went out via next day air.
As I said before, a good determination of what you want in a machine and how you work, plus your budget should tell you what to buy. Close proximity to a dealer is a plus, but if that's not the correct machine for what you do, then that closeness is not going to be a very valuable plus point.
take care,
John

[Richard McComas]

Hi Chris, I have a Felder after sales service story for you.

I have several pieces of Felder equipment including the AD 741 (16” J/P) which I really love, (If you can love an inanimate object,) anyway I bought this Felder J/P slightly used from Felder. I say slightly used because in was never plugged in and used by the original owner who was Walt Disney Productions. The machine was used as a prop in the movie “ The Bicentennial man” with Robin Williams.

Soon after I received my machine I experience a problem with the outfeed table not holding its setting in relation to the cutter head. I would set the outfeed table dead even with the knives, use the machine and then the next day I’d have to reset the table because the table would creep up a few thousandths of and inch.

Now I’m going to make a long short. I called Felder to inform them of the problem. Felder talked me thru some trouble shooting steps and adjustment, which in the end didn’t work. I called them back and we did some more trouble shooing on over the phone. When the problem could not be solved over the phone Felder scheduled a technician to visit my shop.


Again to make a long story short Felder flew a technician to my shop in Alaska on 3 different occasions to fix my machine. On the third and finial visit Felder installed a complete and new outfeed table on my J/P and it has worked perfect since. Had felder not been able to fix the machine I feel confident they would have replaced it.

I later found out that the movie crew had abused the machine by dragging it about the set, across the beach and lifting it my it’s tables.

BTW I have an electric planer table lift kit on my J/P and find changing functions to be not big deal. On the Felder it takes less that a minute and the tables are spring loaded making them very easy to lift or lower.

PS Felder never charged me one cent for the 3 trips to Alaska.

Rich

[Wes Simmons]

Hi Charlie!

I don’t normally post on message boards or tool reviews but I thought I would chime in and give you the benefit of my experiences with combo machines. I have personally owned 2 combo machines and have friends who also own combo machines. Each of the ones you listed make nice machines but I think there are 2 levels of machines in your list. The MM and the Robland are in the same class and the Knapp and Felder are in a class by themselves.

I owned an X31 for years and found it to be quite powerful and bulletproof. The original fence system that came with the machine was slightly awkward and was something that I upgraded when a new design became available from Robland. I built a lot of fine furniture on this machine but started to outgrow it when I began doing more cabinet work and needed a bigger table. I looked at the newer machines from Robland and thought that they had made nice improvements to the machine, especially the size and type of sliding table.

I was seriously thinking about buying one of the new Robland NX machines when a friend invited me over to see his new Felder combo machine. After seeing his machine and trying it out, I began looking at all of the combo machines. Being in a position where I needed and could afford a high-end combo unit, I narrowed the choices down to 2: the Knapp and the Felder. Both are loaded with nice features and are well built. I took a hard look at both machines and ended up buying the Knapp 410 machine. The items that steered me to the Knapp over the Felder were:
1. The Knapp has 2 fences instead of 1 for the table saw and jointer.
2. The lenses on the scales seem to be more accurate or easier to repeat with.
3. The jointer fence pivots right on the table face like professional jointers.
4. The access covers for the saw are easier to operate.
5. The table extrusion is much heavier - If it’s not cast iron then it should be THICK aluminum.
6. The miter gauge has index bushings that make it easier to repeat exactly every time.
7. The shaper spindle tilts both ways and the fence can be reversed. I’ve always thought that the forward tilt of the Knapp was safer also since the work piece has more support.
8. Easier feeding of material into the planer on the Knapp since the dust hood does not cover the in-feed table.
9. All dust collection ports on the same side of the machine.
10. Infinite speed adjustment on the planer feed.
11. The Knapp has a high speed router (I love this part)
12. The frame is thicker and has a flat bottom.

Don’t get me wrong, both machines are very nice and the best furniture I have ever seen was made entirely with hand tools. I have used both and appreciate all of the detail that went into the user-friendly Knapp. The machine was also dead-on right out of the box.

I purchased both of my combo machines from Laguna Tools and found their customer service excellent and their staff very knowledgeable and friendly over the years.

I would say that the new Roblands probably give you the best bang-for-the-buck in the entry-level or mid-level machines because they are priced right, don't use plastic everywhere and have been around longer than any others in the U.S. market. On the higher end machines the Knapp gives you the best of everything if you can afford it. I guess it’s like these computers, buy the best you can afford so you won’t be disappointed later.

Good luck.:rolleyes: