Harbor Freight - "Good Enuf" technology?

[Gary McKown]

In the Sept. issue of WIRED magazine is a very interesting article entitled "The Good Enuf Revlutn." The lead-in states that "From digital music to video cameras to Military aircraft, cheap and simple beats perfect almost every time. It's called the MP3 effect, and it will change everything."

The article details numerous applications of the concept - including elawyering services and strip-mall medical "clinics" in addition to the headline services - with the general theme of close is good enough for most applications and 90-95% of the time.

Festool, Fein, Laguna, etc., look out. How many of us need your Sony-like "features" to drill a hole, cut a 2X4, or suck up sawdust, when the $100 equivalent of a low-res video cam will do? Why use a dial caliper with resolution better that 0.001" when the error in making common measurements is 2-5 times that? And so forth.

I have a lot of HF tools, and (almost) all work as advertised - even the ones with pigtails. Yeah, the $40 "Sawzall" battery runs down if I don't use it for 6 months, but then the same is true for my DeWalt drills.

[Joe Jensen]

In the Sept. issue of WIRED magazine is a very interesting article entitled "The Good Enuf Revlutn." The lead-in states that "From digital music to video cameras to Military aircraft, cheap and simple beats perfect almost every time. It's called the MP3 effect, and it will change everything."

The article details numerous applications of the concept - including elawyering services and strip-mall medical "clinics" in addition to the headline services - with the general theme of close is good enough for most applications and 90-95% of the time.

Festool, Fein, Laguna, etc., look out. How many of us need your Sony-like "features" to drill a hole, cut a 2X4, or suck up sawdust, when the $100 equivalent of a low-res video cam will do? Why use a dial caliper with resolution better that 0.001" when the error in making common measurements is 2-5 times that? And so forth.

I have a lot of HF tools, and (almost) all work as advertised - even the ones with pigtails. Yeah, the $40 "Sawzall" battery runs down if I don't use it for 6 months, but then the same is true for my DeWalt drills.

I guess I'd say the other side is that we have or are becoming a disposable nation. Many buy blindly on price (not saying you do this). I think the HF revolution is mostly driven by people who buy on price first, second, and third.

I am an avid fan of top quality tools, not because I think they are more precise, but because I enjoy quality things. To some tools are just something to get a job done. To others like me, tools are part of the hobby and part of the enjoyment.

Many times I've had coworkers ask me about an interest in woodworking. I ask why and many times they say they want to build some furniture to save some money. I politely tell them than it's rare to build something that costs less than what you can buy something close for. I tell them woodworking is as a hobby is about the process of building and not so much about the end result.

[Jim Rimmer]

I guess I am a fence straddler on this one. On the one hand, I want quality tools that I can depend on everytime I pick them up to do something. On the other hand there are some tools that I wouldn't use very often. The one that comes to mind is the Fein tool and the Rockwell copy from the infomercials. Fein's is anywhere from $250 to $400 depending on the accessory package. Rockwell is $200 in the infomercial. This is a tool that I see as a special, seldom used tool (maybe I would change may mind if I had one). HF has a knock off for $40 w/o coupons or sales. If the occasion arises that I need one, I'll probably buy the HF. I could burn up 5 before I pay for a Rockwell.

But, for the tools I use a lot and depend on, I'll pay for quality and dependability.

[glenn bradley]

Depends what it is and what I'm doing with it. A $1 Home Depot spring clamp is just as good as a $2 HF one or a $4 Bessey one. I won't risk a HF router bit on a piece of wood that cost twice what the bit did, that's just silly. I gave up on cheap cutters a long time ago.

A deadblow hammer? HF's orange ones and a "TaskForce" one (HD? Lowe's? I forget) are ones I found that don't transfer marks to the piece and they are far from top dollar. I do get a kick out of the $20 marking knives and scratch awls however when an X-acto knock off or a BORG end cap product will work.

A block plane? That's not something I want a knock off of. The potential for damage to what I am working on is too high. I guess it is all in what each of us feels is important or more enjoyable to use and that's what we are free to spend our money on. Does a $300 ROS sand better than a $100 one? Maybe. If it lasts 5 times as long, there's the value. I do try to avoid anything that is "disposable" just based on being environmentally responsible and all that.

[Tony Bilello]

.....I think the HF revolution is mostly driven by people who buy on price first, second, and third.
I tell them woodworking .....is about the process of building and not so much about the end result.

I agree with Joe 100%
As soon as I say this I will have a bunch of people that disagree with me but here goes anyway......I think HF is pure junk. If you use it for more than a few hours it will fall apart. Their only purpose is if you need a one-time only tool. Motors burn out and bearings wear out quickly. I threw away enough money with them and other than clamps (which break easily) I dont shop there any longer.

I too am an avid fan of top quality tools although I cant afford them at this time I have friends that own them and I use their tools from time to time. Experience the no-vibration, relative quietness and slick smooth finish of a Laguna planer. or the smooth vibration free operation of a Laguna joiner.
Even better, try power sanding for a several hours with a Craftsman and then again with a Festool. They are worlds apart. Top quality tools are not only more accurate, they are ergonomically better for your body. Humans were not designed for long hours of noise and vibration and over a period of years this will all take its toll.

A Festool electric sander for around $600 is definitely in my future budget.
As for high accuracy, it may not be required for construction projects but it sure is for fine furniture.
We cant all afford the best, but there is no denying that the high dollar stuff is worth the extra money.

[Greg Peterson]

The professional can not afford the cost of an inexpensive tool.

My Craftsman tools serve me well, but you won't find to many mechanics with drawers full of Craftsmen. They don't have time to go back to the nearest store and exchange their broken tool for a new one.

Some tool acquisitions are for one off jobs or otherwise rarely used. In these instances, price can be a factor.

As a hobbyist, cost is an ever present factor. Not that professionals aren't price sensitive, but when a tool is considered a capital investment, some of the sting is diminished and the professional will probably look for ways to increase his/her ROI.

There are probably more than few folks here that remember that 'made in Japan' was an indicator of poor quality.

[michael osadchuk]

Depends what it is and what I'm doing with it. A $1 Home Depot spring clamp is just as good as a $2 HF one or a $4 Bessey one. I won't risk a HF router bit on a piece of wood that cost twice what the bit did, that's just silly. I gave up on cheap cutters a long time ago.

A deadblow hammer? HF's orange ones and a "TaskForce" one (HD? Lowe's? I forget) are ones I found that don't transfer marks to the piece and they are far from top dollar. I do get a kick out of the $20 marking knives and scratch awls however when an X-acto knock off or a BORG end cap product will work.

A block plane? That's not something I want a knock off of. The potential for damage to what I am working on is too high. I guess it is all in what each of us feels is important or more enjoyable to use and that's what we are free to spend our money on. Does a $300 ROS sand better than a $100 one? Maybe. If it lasts 5 times as long, there's the value. I do try to avoid anything that is "disposable" just based on being environmentally responsible and all that.


Ditto Glenn's comments above - be tool specific when deciding at what quality level to buy; also use the online forums to ask for the experience of others with a specific tool purchase.....

... the other thing I would say is that the more experience you have as amateur woodworker the more able you may be to make some cheap/marginal quality tool purchases from outfits like HF (in Canada we have Princess Auto) work for you .... eg. from P.A. I bought a full size No. 10 rabbet plane for $20 and because I've gained a bit of experience with good quality planes I was able to bring it up to workable standards and thereby get a experience with this type of specialty plane.....

good luck

michael

[scott spencer]

It often depends on the user experience level, budget, and need. There have been times when I fall on both sides of this argument for tools and other items as well. As a hobby woodworker, something like the HF mortiser has more than earned it's keep at a price of ~ $100, but if I did more mortises, I'd definitely want a better tool. The HF Pittsburg bar clamps are a steal for my needs at $2 each...prolly not so for a pro. But then there are the HF blades and router bits that make me really nervous.

The disposable mentality is rampant. There have been so many alleged technology "improvements" over the years that improve convenience and price, but often don't improve the performance quality at all...at least not compared to the better examples of whatever the given technology is.

Cases in point:

VHS vs Beta

8-track vs anything

Digital cameras vs film:
Digital photography is convenient and cheap, but the resolution still pales in comparison to a good silver halide photo.

Transistors vs vacuum tubes:
Transistors are more efficient, less expensive, and more reliable than vacuum tubes, but the end potential of tubes is superior to these ears, and still dominates the highend audio market and music amp scene.

Cell phones vs land lines:
Cell phones have horrible audio quality compared to a decent land line phone, but they're convenient so we tolerate it until it becomes the norm.

Digital vs analog music:
Music CDs, or any form of digital music...especially MP3s, don't offer the resolution and sound qualities of a good turntable that's setup properly playing a good vinyl record. CD may have offered some improvements to a record that's in poor conditioned played on a cheap plastic turntable with a lousy needle, but doesn't hold a candle to a nice turntable setup. My kids didn't know the difference until we hooked up medium level turntable to our 2nd stereo system in the basement...then they immediately noticed the difference.

Digital vs analog TV:
The jury is still out on this one as far as I'm concerned, but there is a mixed bag. High def is great...if you have a decent signal (cable or dish). But try getting any signal from a bad location with a cheap digital antenna and a converter box....analog wasn't as clear but it was easy to grab a viewable station from just about any TV in most locations.

[Bill Orbine]

For the most part the tools you buy is what you got for the money you paid for it.... I use much of my tools on a daily basis and I don't allow the battery the chance to run down after six months. A guy who buys a $40 cordless drill 2 years ago and never uses it can't claim it's a great product because it's two years old. The same can be said for a similar $160 cordless drill. Either case the battery runs down without use. But, take a 40 dollar drill up against 160 dollar drill on a daily use and abuse basis, the 160 buck drill is more likely to last much longer, be more durbable and reliable, and have longer battery life, both between recharges and overall life expectancy. For me as a pro, there's very little that I could buy at Harbor Freight.... but that doesn't mean I won't go there.

[Alex Leslie]

I once bought a set of "Lifetime Guaranteed" socket wrenches from HF. They had thick walls, which didn't work too well in confined spaces on airplanes. I broke a 1/4" U-joint, which I sent in under warrantee, and they sent me a new one - three months later!

In the mean time I bought a Snap-on set after using them in a pro shop. What a difference! The socket walls are thinner, making them fit in tight spaces better, the ratchets have more teeth for shorter swings and after 28 years of use, NOTHING BROKE!

I have since spent many thousands of dollars on Snap-on tools to replace my old "crap" and add to my capabilities. Whenever I need a special tool, that's the only way I go.

My woodworking experience has been similar. I didn't buy all my tools at once, but I bought the best I could afford, one at a time, when I could afford them. What's the old saying? Buy quality once or second rate over and over.

[Wilbur Pan]

Festool, Fein, Laguna, etc., look out. How many of us need your Sony-like "features" to drill a hole, cut a 2X4, or suck up sawdust, when the $100 equivalent of a low-res video cam will do? Why use a dial caliper with resolution better that 0.001" when the error in making common measurements is 2-5 times that? And so forth.

I have a lot of HF tools, and (almost) all work as advertised - even the ones with pigtails. Yeah, the $40 "Sawzall" battery runs down if I don't use it for 6 months, but then the same is true for my DeWalt drills.

You can make the same argument that there isn't any reason why anyone should have a bookcase made from solid cherry. 2x material sitting on cinder blocks will do just as well to hold a bunch of books.

I'm trying not to sound too snarky, but I am assuming that you are a woodworker, otherwise you wouldn't be participating in this forum. As such, I'm also assuming that you can see the value between a piece of furniture made with solid woodworking techniques as opposed to cheaper MDF bolt-it-together furniture, and that you recognize the value in the former. The same applies for tools.

This is not to say that everyone needs to go out and get a Festool router. It's an acknowledgement that some people do find value and utility with higher priced tools like Festool, Laguna, and Fein, and it will be a sad day if the MP3 effect results in those tool options becoming no longer available.

[Gary McKown]

Wilbur - yes, I guess you could say I'm a woodworker, hobbiest-style. Been at it for 30 years or so. Whole houseful of furniture, mostly solid oak with some cherry and walnut. Some what you might call utility, some quite elegant if I may say so. Almost all pieces were milled and constructed using "Craftsman"-level tools, and not very many at that. Only in recent years have I had a cabinet saw, decent bandsaw, lathe, router table, planer, or dust collection beyond a shop vac. I still maintain one does not need a $400 drill to put holes in wood, and accurately. Many before my generation did it with a brace and bit. I do it with a $39 B&D from the outlet store, or a second-hand DeWalt, or a HF drill press I bought in 1982 - yes, 1982!

I tend to agree with many of the posts about quality tools, especially hand tools, but I certainly do not get hung up on brands or suffer from a "tool collection" fever. I'll be making sawdust - and occasionally furniture - while others are out petting their prize possessions.

Example: five years ago I bought a $99 HF SCMS, for one purpose only - to chop off rafter tails for a garage the neighbor was building. I figured it should last through that one job. It is still going strong, original blade and YES, even the original set of brushes. Do I use it every day, or to cut precise miters or crosscuts? No, but it is the go-to machine when I need to chop a 12-ft. board into rough 3-ft. lengths, etc.

As another example, the only HF tool that has failed me was a heat gun. Of course, maybe using it to thaw a frozen faucet and getting water down the barrel might have been a bit too harsh on it?

I figured my initial post would stir up the hornet's nest. Good to see differing opinions - it wouldn't be much of a forum if everyone thought alike.

[george wilson]

There are HF tools you can apparently get decent use from. I have a brad gun that has been fine.Since I don't use nail guns except on the occasional household repair,I can't see putting over $200.00 into one.

Other categories like wrenches,I'll pass on the cheap stuff because they probably haven't got decent tool steel in them.

I've bought Enco clamps that were unusable because the tightening screws were installed crooked,like a clamp that has been tightened too tight,and has failed.

It's a bit of a gamble buying Chinese stuff. Sometimes you win,other times you don't.

It is too bad that our country has been run out of manufacturing much of anything since people want cheap prices. On the other hand,when I was young,in the 50's and 60's,everything in the way of machines was so expensive that most folks could only dream about having a well equipped shop.

Parks planers were about the only small ones available (with Belsaw,too) but,those planers were not durable. Their feed gearboxes were always wearing out. I saw several Parks planers with jury rigged power feeds. Even saw one mated to a floor shift car transmission. Took up much more space than it should have!

The only affordable metal lathes were Atlas. I struggled along with one for a year. Really way too light,and lots of pot metal. When I got my first Taiwan lathe,it was a HUGE improvement.

I did buy a Dewalt table saw in 1964,which I still have,but $600.00 was a lot of money for me back then. It took many,many years to accumulate a decent shop beyond that saw. Most of my good stuff is Taiwan made: planer,jointer,belt and disc sanders,and large metal lathe.

If it wasn't for a local used machinery dealer,I wouldn't have afforded much of my better equipment.

So,the imported stuff has been a boon to many of us,it seems,in reality. I do have a very fine Hardinge HLVH lathe that I could never have bought if it weren't sheer luck. They are about the last metal lathe made in USA,and are nearly defunct now. But who can afford $60,000.00 for one for a home shop? And,that doesn't include the accessories that make it useful.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Sometimes it's a matter of matching needs to price. Do I need a $200 Starrett dial caliper to check wood coming out of the planer. No, the $12.99 from HF matches my needs. But if I was building engines for 757's, then the Starrett would be the better choice. Same thing for my dail indicator and base. A four dollar HF toggle clamp works just as well on my jigs as a DeStaco. But if it was in a production setting, then the answer would be reversed. I have a set of 1/2" drive impact sockets that I bought from a flea market in 1978 for $20. They have done everything I have asked of them, but my son who turns wrenches for a living would soon have to replace them. I own mainly Senco nailers, and one PC brad nailer. Compared to the Senco's, the PC is crap. The PC would be more than adequate for most applications. Look at how many of Delta's tools have been copied by others. Are the clones as good? In most cases yes, and in some they are better. I used to only buy Senco nails, till I figured out that the ones from PC were just as good, but less than half of the cost.

[Wilbur Pan]

I still maintain one does not need a $400 drill to put holes in wood, and accurately....

Example: five years ago I bought a $99 HF SCMS, for one purpose only - to chop off rafter tails for a garage the neighbor was building. I figured it should last through that one job. It is still going strong, original blade and YES, even the original set of brushes. Do I use it every day, or to cut precise miters or crosscuts? No, but it is the go-to machine when I need to chop a 12-ft. board into rough 3-ft. lengths, etc.

Playing devil's advocate, let me rephrase the above a little:


I still maintain that one does not need a $1000 set of "fine furniture" to be able to eat dinner....

Example: 15 years ago I bought a $199 set of a dinner table and four chairs, for one purpose only -- to fill out my apartment. I figured it would last me the time that I was staying in that apartment. It is still going strong, even with the original finish even after three moves, and YES, the chairs still don't wobble. Do I use it every day? Well, actually, yes. ;)

The above is actually true. My family is still using the dining table and chairs set that I got when I was still single. To look at it, it is not what anyone would call "fine furniture". The wood is actually a bunch of unidentified light colored wood shorts glued together and covered in an opaque finish. But it still works. Should the fact that the table and chairs are still in good shape make me not want to build a nicer table and chair set out of walnut some day?

As I see it, the problem with these sorts of discussions about tools is that for woodworkers, this line of reasoning about inexpensive tools and whether more expensive tools are not worth the extra dollars must also lead to the conclusion that taking the time to make fine furniture is a waste of money and time as well. The fact that you have taken the time to build elegant furniture and spent the extra money to make those pieces out of solid woods already tells me that you already have no problem with going beyond the simply utilitarian, otherwise you would not have the furniture that you do.

In which case, it doesn't make any sense to go on about how any level of tool is "good enough", with your implication in your original post that going beyond said level is wasteful. If we all should be happy with a $99 HF SCMS, then we all should be happy with the offerings in the Ikea catalog or the bolt together MDF stuff at Walmart, which relegates our interests in woodworking to insignificance. If buying a Festool or Fein tool is all about wasting money on Sony-like features, than designing and building a piece of furniture out of oak is just throwing money away as well.

By the way, the MP3 effect described in that Wired article isn't a new phenomenon, nor will it "change everything". The idea that close is good enough for 90+% of the situations one will encounter has been around for ages. That is the basis for how engineers decide how things are designed.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

IMO the difference is if you use the tools EVERY day. Yes, I would spend money on a Festool, IF I had to use it on a day to day basis. Same as a Snap-On wrench vs Craftsman. Worth triple the price? When I used them EVERY day, yes it made a difference. To the average homeowner, probably not. Stihl chainsaw for the lumberjack? Absolutely. $3K saw for the homeowner? Nah, pass. This board is probably made up of primarily weekenders, so for the majority of us, the HF junk is "good enough", and worth buying.

Sad to say, the "craftsman" is a dying breed. Replaced by CAD/CAM routers. Computer driven assembly lines. Take pride in your own work. Even if you use a HF Fien knockoff.

Just my .02.

[Chris Tsutsui]

I have no biases based on quality or price. There is nothing to be ashamed of having HF stuff, it is simply a trade-off to spend more money on higher quality.

The difference between a HF and quality tool is you know the quality tool has a reputation to maintain and will work great for a long time. The HF tools have everything to gain so when you use a HF tool, you are basically wondering when this tool is going to die. heh

[Mike Cruz]

I have to make a comment on the HF thing. I have spoken my mind a few times, but have bit my tongue more times than not.

It is simple: Buy the HF sawsall. Use it. One or two jobs/uses? Okay, you got your money's worth. Use it any more than that and you will be swearing off the stuff and cursing the day you bought it. I did, and I did. For a couple reasons. The things vibrates more than a deisel running on 5 cyclinders. The screw that holds the blade in loosens in under a minute. And I STILL have the stupid thing because it still works. Not well, but works. Had I bought a quality one, or even semi quality one back when I got this one (ten some odd years ago) I would pick it up and use it whenever a project called for it. Now I use it only when absolutely necessary, and dread it.

Off my soap box now...off to have a beer...

[Joe Little]

This reminds me of an article in Atlantic magazine last year that women shouldn't keep looking for Mr Right when Mr Goodenough will do! Very entertaining and maybe the same rules apply here.

[Augusto Orosco]

Good enough is a relative measure. It means something different from different people, and even for the same person trying to accomplish a different objective.

I once bought a cheap and simple big store jig-saw. It was good enough to cut a hole in the back of a cheap IKEA bookcase so my tube TV could stand in one of the shelves. Unfortunately, it convinced me that jig saws were imprecise, frustrating, vibrating beasts. Similar experience with a cheap block plane I bought at a borg.

Now I own a Bosch Jigsaw and a LV block plane. Needless to say, my ideas on what can be accomplished with a Jig Saw and a Block Plane have changed dramatically.

Nothing wrong with cheap stuff that does the job at hand and appears to be 'good enough'. But sometimes we don't know what we are missing. Some tools appear expensive, but they more than make it up with their superior performance and how much easier and pleasurable they are to use.

The tool certainly doesn't make the woodworker, but a good tool can help unleash that hidden potential we didn't know we have. For those who are at this as a hobbie and whose time is limited, a good tool allows us to reach a higher level of competence faster and in a more enjoyable way.

[Mr. Jeff Smith]

Price is what you pay, value is what you get.

The first (price) is generally the same for all.
The second (value) is different for everyone.

I assume things will be "good enough" as long as people have a high velocity of cash to buy application specific tools. As access to money constricts I expect to see more people be willing to pay for things that last and can be utilized again (or sold).

[Alex Leslie]

Perhaps the "good enough" tools may be bad for the soul... :rolleyes:

I find that I cuss much less while working with quality tools, because they do what I intend without difficulty. Inadequate tools that fail or make work difficult lead to frustration and more cussing. :eek:

I think I'm a few thousand "Hail Mary's" ahead since I switched to Festool! :cool:

[Rod Sheridan]

Perhaps the "good enough" tools may be bad for the soul... :rolleyes:

I find that I cuss much less while working with quality tools, because they do what I intend without difficulty. Inadequate tools that fail or make work difficult lead to frustration and more cussing. :eek:

I think I'm a few thousand "Hail Mary's" ahead since I switched to Festool! :cool:

Good point Alex.

I find that good tools are a pleasure to use, motivate me to try to do better work (sometimes doesn't work), and bring a smile to my face, (always works).

For me, woodworking is a hobby, which means it must bring pleasure and rewards to my life. Good tools and machinery do that, poor tools and machinery do the opposite.

Yes I could cut a piece of wood with a circular saw attached to a piece of plywood and call it a table saw, or I could use a Euro slider.

Which do you think i would enjoy more, and get more satisfaction from?

Anyone who has stood in the Felder showroom, sliding an X Roll table back and forth with a dazed look on their face, while their wife just shakes her head, will understand completely.

Hobbies, like art, performance and literature enrich our lives, I'm only going to get one life, so I'm sure not going to waste it on poor art, plays I don't like, poor literature, or cheap tools.

Regards, Rod.

[george wilson]

I am trying to be flexible in my judgement of HF tools due to the large number of earlier posts that have been seen in this forum. Many have described the long use and reliability they have gotten from their HF tools. So,they can't be all bad.

I think there is a gamble involved in buying cheap imports. Personally,I seem to have been lucky,though I do not have many HF tools. Just the brad gun,and a $99.00 wooden machinist's chest which HAS NOT had the bottoms of the drawers fall out,though I have certainly heard stories from people I know personally who have had that very thing happen. I can tell you that that HF chest I have is loaded with endmills,and is completely full of steel reamers,drill bits,endmills,etc.. It would take 2 strong men to lift it. I do not think a Gerstner would be any stronger,just finished a bit better,at 15 times the price.

[Matt Armstrong]

I'll point out that digital cameras do NOT pale in comparison to a silver halide photo... the resolution of a 35mm ISO100 piece of film is about 20 megapixels. The resolution of a 35mm ISO1600 piece of film is far less. The Canon 5d Mark II is 21 megapixels and takes reasonable pictures at far higher ISOs... silver halide grains are not perfectly analog nor do they offer "unlimited" resolution. If there's only 21 million grains, you can't get more than 21 megapixels, etc

.

Now, cost is another factor. cheap film would allow one to take 21mp shots more often than the cost of a canon camera. But yet, in this case, you see people tossing aside the cheap solutions (film cameras) in favor of very expensive DSLRs. I don't think that the "good enuf" effect is anything new, it's just rational consumption. Cheap tools for hobbyists make a lot of sense. Nice tools for professionals also make sense. There was a market demand for a solution that was cheaper for a lot of things and HF fits the bill.

I, frankly, love free trade (see avatar).

[James Carmichael]

that "From digital music to video cameras to Military aircraft, cheap and simple beats perfect almost every time. It's called the MP3 effect, and it will change everything."

The article details numerous applications of the concept - including elawyering services and strip-mall medical "clinics" in addition to the headline services - with the general theme of close is good enough for most applications and 90-95% of the time.



So does that mean you only hear 90-95% of the notes on your digital music?

I don't know what everyone else thinks, but whether it's military aircraft or heart surgery, close is not good enough.

[Alex Leslie]

"Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades." :eek:

[Brian Effinger]

"Close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades." :eek:
And don't forget: atomic bombs! :D

[johnny means]

I believe that part of what we pay for with name brand tools is a pedigree. A harbor Freight tool may be a real gem of a deal, then again some of their stuff is absolute crap and not worth the trip to the store if it was free. On the other hand I know anything with Milwaukee on it is the shiznit. I guess the question is "What would it cost me if it failed?" Might not be much for the hobbyist might be hundreds or thousands, even a reputation for the professional.

[Ron Bott]

For me, woodworking is a hobby, which means it must bring pleasure and rewards to my life. Good tools and machinery do that, poor tools and machinery do the opposite..

Couldn't have said it better. I don't understand the allure of HF tools. Either people don't know the difference between a quality tool and a throw-away tool, or the are victims of the "must have it now" mentality. In either case you're probably better server waiting and buying something better.

[Kerry Wright]

My parents placed a concept very deep in my Psyche. Simple put; You will pay for quality once, or you will pay for cheap the rest of your life.

This concept I have instilled in my wife and children. And, for the most part we will buy the absolute best we can afford. When it come to tools, I attempt to weigh the predicted usage vs the cost. If this is a one time deal, I will try to rent the tool. Over the years I have realized there are very few one time deals. So I end up buying most of the time. It then becomes a crystal ball effort to decide on how much quality I will require over my expected use of the tool. Is this something I will use every five years, five months or five days? Also part of the equation is how hard or how much do I dislike the task this tool performs. I like easy.

At the end of the day my decision is based primarily on how often and how easy this tool will do the job.

One thing that ALWAYS holds true, I have never regretted paying for quality, but I have on more than one occasion questioned why in the heck I bought cheap.

Yep, my parents (bless them both) were right again..........as usual.

[william scott]

Like most things tool related, sometimes 'cheap' will do IF it's a simple type of tool or you won't be using it much. I have a floor jack from HF that's about 10 years old and has never failed, despite much use and abuse. Floor jacks are hard to screw up on the design. Either the seals hold or they don't.

But sockets and wrenches? No way would I buy from HF as I've busted the sides out of too many sockets and wrenches made cheaply in Taiwan.

Chisels and planes from HF? Again, nope, as they aren't tempered well and you wind up with nicks in the blades, along with poor sharpening results.

Workbenches? yep, I've found a couple of them that work well. Calipers? Yes, I have a digital one that meets the accuracy I need.

So it's a bit of a mixed bag. If you know what you want, you know how you are going to be using it and are familiar with the characteristics of that particular tool, sometimes buying HF saves you money.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Hello,
Never mind - my comment was uncalled for so I deleted it.

[John Harden]

It's funny. I think we all have tools, hobbies or things we are passionate about and others that we're not.

I think nothing of strolling through HF buying mechanics hand tools, electrical connectors/testers, welding supplies, air tools, etc. I'm not passionate about any of these types of tools, don't use them very often, and am perfectly happy accepting the trade off in quality for the killer prices I pay.

However, ask me to consider one of their table saws, jointers or planers and I'll roll my eyes, turn up my nose and make "hrruummpfff" sounds. Ask me to explain myself and I'll take out my pom-pom's and explain all about the quality tools that exist out there and how HF's offerings in these areas are better suited to be boat anchors.

Wouldn't necessarily even occur to me that there would be pro or hobbiest shade tree mechanics who would say EXACTLY the same thing to me about my choice in hand tools, electrical connectors/testers, welding supplies.......

Nothing less than BMW works for me for motorcycles, but I have little passion for cars, so Nissan is more than good enough.

In my view, its all about what we feel we need. For things I'm passionate about I want the highest quality I can afford. For other things, I only ask that it work, not that it be top of the line.

Its only a compromise if you feel that it is. I don't feel like I'm compromising at all when I shop at HF for the types of things I buy.

Regards,

John

[Gene Howe]

If, like me, you are a hobbiest, buy the finest quality tool you can afford. It only hurts once.
I'd assume that one who makes a living with his/her tools will have evaluated his/her needs and obtain the finest quality to fill those needs....period.
I buy a lot of items from HF. Dust collector, hoses, tool racks, clamps, gloves, flux brushes, rasps...etc. I've been disappointed in only the rasps.
I hesitate to buy from HF any saws, drills, sanders, blades, and such.
Gene

[Steven DeMars]

For the most part I feel anything that is available @ Harbor "Fright" as some call it in the Miller Welding Forum belongs in the trash heap.

Example, I purchased a small Gerstner "like" machinist chest there one day. I'm thinking in advance, it probably won't look or be built as well as my real Gerstner Box. I was right, when I opened it up and started examining it I realized the drawer bottoms were cardboard, real cardboard, identical to the cardboard used to make the box it came in . . . just no printing on it.

I bought a spare tire carrier for my utility trailer there, brought it home and mounted it. The bolt pattern regardless of how it was configured would not match my wheel. Went in and got lug pattern template I picked up at a trailer store. It did not match "any" wheel pattern sold, none, notta, nothing . . . Brought it back, they gave me my money and threw it in the scrap metal bin. Let me tell you something, when you return something that is NOT BROKE and the store throws it in a scrap metal bin, you bought junk. What the heck is a retail store doing with a scrap metal bin?:(

But today I bought a tool cabinet, #95272 for $179.00, & I know it will not be as well made as my Snap-On cabinets, but a $179.00 with Snap-On will only get you a tool cabinet the size of small shoe box. It's for welding supplies anyway . . It's gotta be better than the card board box I am using now . .

Now perfect example of a typical value that HF does offer. A complete set of center finding transfer punches for $9.99. They suck for metal work as they were designed to do, but for woodwork they are excellent & will last forever.

Steve:)